View Full Version : AR Marking Discussion
fizzwheel
15-05-09, 07:35 AM
Righto
it seems one of the issues with the AR is how the marking is being done.
I posted my thoughts on the matter in the big forum debate thread but one of the other mods has suggested that its getting lost in amongst the general discussion.
This is my thoughts on the matter
Personally speaking I led some of last years AR and I did TEC for most of it. I wanted a group of riders who I trusted would stop where I wanted them to. I felt this especially important, on the day I had 80 odd bikes behind me, one missed junction because somebodies not familiar with the drop off system would have led to utter chaos.
The idea behind the set markers was that.
There were 6 odd that have run the route before and knew it
The rest were made up with people who I had utmost faith in, i.e. I trusted them to stop and stay there till the TEC came past.
I've been on plenty rideouts where junctions dont get marked or somebody gets bored and decides not to wait. I've been on them, I've been mid pack and faced with a junction where I didnt know where to go. Its bl**dy annoying and frustrating sometimes.
I appreciate the point about being involved and that last year some people were denied that opportunity, but I feel on this point that its a necessary evil in order to ensure the rideout goes smoothly and people dont get lost.
I think its a credit to the system and the markers running with it that nobody last year got lost. Nobody feell off and everybody seemed to really enjoy it. We had a small issue with Messie and road rage that Grinch deallt with and some dodgy overtaking but that was about it from what I saw
So discuss. Does the system work. Do we mess with a system that has been run previously and proven do work. Is the removal of the opportunity for participation on this fair or not fair. Is the removal of participation so that the rideout progresses smoothly and nobody gets lost due to non marked junctions worth sacrificing some level of participation on.
I know that on AR08 when we started the 2nd leg out of Dorchester we could have done with a few more markers as some people that didnt have marker vests on stopped and marked the junction.
Just because theres a dedicated marker system in place, my thoughts are that it does not prevent anybody from stopping and marking a junction thats not been marked or that the feel needs marking.
But... marking is not an excuse to ride like a complete moron and bully your way through the pack whillst making a series of dodgy / dangerous overtakes...
I wasn't at AR08 and have only been on a couple of rides where the marker system was employed.
My view is - if it ain't broke, don't fix it...
That said perhaps the number of markers needs careful consideration.
the white rabbit
15-05-09, 08:10 AM
I have been on one big ride on here where folks got lost. Having said that I too don't like feeling I am on a guided tour in a sea of yellow. I have been on trail rides with a big group (20....don't even ask!) where my own refusal to wear yellow resulted in folks getting lost (but the circs then are different and they deserved it :lol:)
I think some may think the markers are some form of an elite clique. Maybe. BUT without them you run into trouble. I have had more than one occassion where someone has contacted me and said 'I'll tail end your group for you' and then they don't have a clue what the route is, despite their assurances. Yes, they wanted a bigger role, but it resulted in more hassle for me. It's also surprising the numebr of folks who have neither a clue where they are or can apply common sense with directions and locations. And don't even go to can they read a map!
Its all very well wanting a go at marking, but if you have any uncertainty you are much better just enjoying the ride.
Ok, I know marking can be thought of as not needing to know the route, as the leader and TEC will do but in a large AR type group if you don't you are asking for trouble in event of breakdown, problems, the unexpected that will usually happen. Remember also some of these people will be those who have proven they can troubleshoot a bike problem, mend a tyre etc. Would you rather be stuck with a marker who would call the AA or one who might check if your battery lead has just fallen off? In a large group that is also a consideration.
For me its the call of the run organiser and when I occasionally have organised a run to be able to relax you need people behind you you can trust, there's plenty to do leading a run and I don't think some folks appreciate it. Its also at times especially when you have new people rather stressful, which people should bear in mind.
One small point - the route as I have ridden does not seem to need a huge number of markers. By this mean I don't think there are any sections where there are more than about 4-6 junctions in a row, so I don't think we're going to run out
Having said that though, Supervox is the expert on the route and what's needed
My thoughts on the matter were. The system clearly works but can it improve so it is more enjoyable. I suggested greater rider involvment and participation by everyone marking and playing a greater role in the ride.
It would be more pressure on everyone as it would take a greater amount of communication so everyone understands the system.
I have been on rides where it has worked really well but it means you need to spell out beforehand how it works as well as on the day. As well as empowering everyone to play a greater role it allows more freedom to move about. It's a buzz to see bikes going past you if you are marking and know you are part of the ride. You dont get to experience this being number 56 of 80 throughout the ride.
I've been on rides where people have been confused and marking hasnt worked but all of these happened where riders werent clearly informed before the event how the system works. It's probably the most common fault and then organisers point the fingure at individuals.
Anyways it was just a suggestion on how things can be perhaps maybe improved and I was just coming up with some ideas. For the record I wasnt unhappy about the current system at all as my only AR was 06 - it was just an idea to get people more involved on the day.
Cheers,
Grant
Having marked at AR07 I have to say that the system just works - end of. I had absolutely no idea of the route before hand but just waited until I was the next marker behind the leader and stopped when he pointed to the place he wanted me to. It was pouring with rain throughout the whole rideout and no-one got lost, fell off etc.
But... marking is not an excuse to ride like a complete moron and bully your way through the pack whillst making a series of dodgy / dangerous overtakes...
I think this is the problem - people have seen how it works and want to be one of the supposed "priviledged few" who get to overtake everyone and make it back to the front rather than being "herded" from one stop to the next. Not everyone can do it and I totally agree with Fizz that it makes sense for them to be trusted individuals selected by the organisers - I wouldnt have been chosen for the AR07 marking if I hadnt joined the Soho lot in the ride up to Yorkshire as otherwise they would have had no idea as to the way I ride and whether I was the sort of person who would be sensible about the whole thing. There is no point having a bunch of "hot-heads" (which lets be honest are the sort of riders who would be saying "me, me, me" to be a marker) as risks could be taken where unneccessary.
Just my 2p...
SoulKiss
15-05-09, 09:03 AM
My thoughts on the matter were. The system clearly works but can it improve so it is more enjoyable. I suggested greater rider involvment and participation by everyone marking and playing a greater role in the ride.
It would be more pressure on everyone as it would take a greater amount of communication so everyone understands the system.
I have been on rides where it has worked really well but it means you need to spell out beforehand how it works as well as on the day. As well as empowering everyone to play a greater role it allows more freedom to move about. It's a buzz to see bikes going past you if you are marking and know you are part of the ride. You dont get to experience this being number 56 of 80 throughout the ride.
I've been on rides where people have been confused and marking hasnt worked but all of these happened where riders werent clearly informed before the event how the system works. It's probably the most common fault and then organisers point the fingure at individuals.
Anyways it was just a suggestion on how things can be perhaps maybe improved and I was just coming up with some ideas. For the record I wasnt unhappy about the current system at all as my only AR was 06 - it was just an idea to get people more involved on the day.
Cheers,
Grant
That would be great if there wasn't such a wide range of ability in the group on the AR.
Dedicated Markers, who have the skill and ability to safely out-ride the average attendee to get back into position to mark are the only way I see of it really working.
Personally its Voxy's baby, let him sort it out as he sees fit, its not really an aspect that requires democratic debate......
Luckypants
15-05-09, 09:21 AM
The AR is such a big ride, it would be all too easy for something to think 'someone else will mark this turn' and something is not marked, folks get lost. Plus there are so many bikes (and not all SVs) that you would not recognise most of the bikes on the ride and can easily leave at the wrong moment, folks get lost....
So having designated markers that know the route works well, everyone knows where they stand WRT marking and can relax.
I say leave things as they are.
I've been to 3 AR's now and marked 2, and this year I'd rather not mark as I want to enjoy the ride as I'm hoping to get pic's on route. Something that me marking as well will make a touch more difficult.
I want to enjoy the ride
me too. Don't understand why people want to mark. You can't help if help isn't required. I'd much prefer an experienced group of markers to a bunch of people who are only doing the job cos they shouted loudly about it.
Was it AR04 when a big bunch of us got lost?
Yep its all well saying everyone mark.. but I don't want to. And some people of less riding experience might not be happy with it. This system works, so I don't think it needs changing.
Plus I have 4x4's to hassle.
Yep its all well saying everyone mark.. but I don't want to. And some people of less riding experience might not be happy with it. This system works, so I don't think it needs changing.
Plus I have 4x4's to hassle.
I hope you don't!
fizzwheel
15-05-09, 11:04 AM
I think this is the problem - people have seen how it works and want to be one of the supposed "priviledged few" who get to overtake everyone and make it back to the front rather than being "herded" from one stop to the next.
It is some of the problem. I think some of the problem is that people dont understand how stressy it is leading a big group of riders, When you have a dozen or so on a regional rideout its not so bad, But I was very nervous about the AR rideout.
But not having markers IMHO encourages racing / aggressive riding and the AR ride is IMHO not the place for it. Let me give some examples if I may
I got buzzed on AR06 by somebody maknig their way up through the pack, He passed me so close at speed that it made me jump out the seat, I reckon I could have moved my elbow out by a CM or two and he would have hit my elbow.
I got aggressively overtaken by somebody else doing the same to the point I had to brake so hard to avoid hitting the back of them that I nearly sent my pillion into orbit.
I didnt pick last years markers on riding ability, If thats how it is being percieved then that is the wrong perception.
I picked last years markers because I knew
That they would stop to mark a junction
That they would stop in a safe place and not put themselves or others in danger
That they would wait at the junction until TEC came into sight or caught them up
When I was out in front leadnig I didnt want to have to worry about whether junctions were marked and when my Dad was out in front leading I didnt want him worrying about it either. Dad was worried about leading as he had never done so for such a big group of riders, he said to me afterwards how well the ride had gone and that he liked seeing a group of Yellow bibs behind him as he knew that the route would be marked properly. It made him more relaxed and he enjoyed his day a hell of lot more because of it.
Spiderman
15-05-09, 11:42 AM
I'm not against a change in the system if we can agree a away that will WORK.
AR06 got to be a bit of a joke at points. I remember riding with another bike beside me who i know. She shouted across that she was looking forwad to dropping off and would i stop with her to look at something on her bike.
It was John (ride leader) then us 2 and then a fair gap before the rest of the pack. Until a group of 3 or 4 bikes decided that they wanted to be in front of us and mark again, i was fairly sure they had dropped off a couple of junctions before to mark so they must have ridden thru the pack pretty fast to get back up here.
And the fact they had no respect for us 2 waiting in line behind the ride leader was just pathetic to be honest. So they drop off at the next junction and me and friend think 'great, our turn next' until the next couple of idiots decide to fly past us, almost past John too and pull in just in time to drop off again.
the point of marking is NOT the ability to ride like a muppet back to the front and scare the bejezzuz out of some on the way. Its to simply make sure no-one gets lost.
Now the difficulty i see is fiuring out who wants to mark and who dont out of the whole pack. Grinch for example is capable and has done it before but simply doesnt want to and tere should be no pressure on him or anyone else who deosnt want to, for whatever reason, to join in and do it.
Demonz...i know how he rides and the coupe of times ive ridden with him in small groups has been pure joy. hes fast, safe and above all fully aware of the riders(s) behind him when making overtakes and other moves. Using him as an example only cos i know how he rides. No reason why he cant be a marker in either system as far as i'm concerned.
However, if we want the whole group to participate how do we, on the day, know who doesnt want to mark without simply asking tem to stay in a pack together at the back of the ride? really dont want to see tons of peeps with bibs on who are happy to mark and less without bibs cos again it creates this unseen "them and us" mentality that we dont want.
So suggestions please about how we can make a system work that includes everyone.
And PLEASE can we keep this thread ONLY about how to set up a system that works and not about who wnats to do it this way or that way.
if you have a constructive idea abuot a new system, lets hear and discuss it please.
Why change something that works and is safe.
I dont meant to be funny here but, the only reason why people are even contemplating changing this is because it is felt that people who are markers have a little "power" over others.
So instead of just ignoring the few, who seem to have ego agendas going on, other posibilities are now going to be considered that quite frankly will be a less safe option for the majority.
Markers worked on AR04,05,06 and 08. (Couldn't make 07).
Dedicated markers work even better. Especially if carefully selected. There are a few who marked 08 that in my opinion just used it as an excuse to ride like an idiot. I don't think anyone should volunteer; everyone should wait to be asked if they wish to participate. So long as you have markers who know what they are doing, it is completely irrelevant if they have ever run the route before or not. There are plenty of people involved with the organisation this year to find enough people they consider have the skills required to participate.
SoulKiss
15-05-09, 02:01 PM
Markers worked on AR04,05,06 and 08. (Couldn't make 07).
Dedicated markers work even better. Especially if carefully selected. There are a few who marked 08 that in my opinion just used it as an excuse to ride like an idiot. I don't think anyone should volunteer; everyone should wait to be asked if they wish to participate. So long as you have markers who know what they are doing, it is completely irrelevant if they have ever run the route before or not. There are plenty of people involved with the organisation this year to find enough people they consider have the skills required to participate.
There is only one "problem" I see with this.
As mentioned, some people see the Markers as being "special" and getting treated differently.
So if a group or people that ride regularly together end up getting chosen for just that reason - ie they know each others capabilities, then there are going to be people complaining about cliques ad the like.
To my mind being a marker is not a great thing, you have to stop, maybe in the middle of a VERY enjoyable bit of riding, then wait at the side of the road for however long until the TEC appears, then you are under pressure to get to the front before the next x junctions are passed, in a safe and considerate manner.
I can appreciate why Grinch has said "thanks but no thanks" already this year.
Again, Supervox has planned the route, he probably already knows how many markers he needs, and I am sure he has a number of people picked out for that, and if he's coming up short, will ask them in turn for their recommendations.
fizzwheel
15-05-09, 02:03 PM
There are a few who marked 08 that in my opinion just used it as an excuse to ride like an idiot.
I never saw that, being either at the front or at the back.
Its important to pickup on what Simon is saying here. Its not an excuse to ride like a tw*t. If theres people out there reading this and are thinking
"If I'm marker then I can do what I want when I want and ride like a moron"
Then you've mis-understood the job.
I've got my name down for marking this year, I'm happy to give it up and let somebody else have a go, but you should understand just what you're getting into. Its not an easy job to make your way safely up through a big pack of riders....
I don't think anyone should volunteer; everyone should wait to be asked if they wish to participate.
Totally in agreement here. It's a privilege not a right. In fact its not even a privilege its a job. If people actually want to stand wearing a fluoro bib at the side of the road... there's 363 other days of the year they can do that.
I found 06 getting buzzed by a marker was just as annoying as those you riding with. Perhaps banning overtaking altogether would be a safer option - but rather boring too I guess.
I think the issue Anna brings up is a valid one and probably relates to the forum/mod issue again. Who is 'in' and not 'in' - and how to include those that feel excluded so the event is a greater success. Hence my suggestion for this. I agree with you all - the main thing is safety and if you feel it would be a compromise then its not worth it.
fizzwheel
15-05-09, 02:16 PM
I found 06 getting buzzed by a marker was just as annoying as those you riding with.
IMHO if the markers are doing their jobs properly then you shouldnt get buzzed.
Example.
In AR06 I kept a good eye on my mirrors. I could see Sid Squid coming up to overtake me, he waited for a sec so he knew I had seen him. I let him know I had seen him, by indicating left slightly and moving over. He then waited till a clear piece of road and the overtook me leaving plenty of room and gave me a friendly wave as he went past.
He was safe, swift and smooth as he overtook me, he didnt cut in in front of me and left me room. I watched him repeat the process all the way through the pack of riders.
the white rabbit
15-05-09, 02:18 PM
Totally in agreement here. It's a privilege not a right. In fact its not even a privilege its a job. If people actually want to stand wearing a fluoro bib at the side of the road... there's 363 other days of the year they can do that.
Quite, well said.
I do think though in response to the new bloke ;) further up the thread that it is a good idea for markers to know the route or at least have looked at a map in case they need to know where it is headed. But I do agree that if the job is done right that's not entirely necessary.
Totally in agreement here. It's a privilege not a right. In fact its not even a privilege its a job. If people actually want to stand wearing a fluoro bib at the side of the road... there's 363 other days of the year they can do that.
+1 , ive been out on a rideout where we ( i say we, i was pillion) had to help mark, its no fun so i can't see why theres a big fuss over it all??
Id much rather be riding along than sat at a point in the sun/rain etc waiting for riders to pass me
I found 06 getting buzzed by a marker was just as annoying as those you riding with. Perhaps banning overtaking altogether would be a safer option - but rather boring too I guess.
Sometimes people make mistakes in judgement... might have simply been that.
Sometimes people make mistakes in judgement... might have simply been that.
Yes - I doubt it was intentional, but them just trying to make fast progress.
Spiderman
15-05-09, 05:18 PM
Why change something that works and is safe.
I dont meant to be funny here but, the only reason why people are even contemplating changing this is because it is felt that people who are markers have a little "power" over others.
If they feel that way then they are mistaken of course. Its a responsibility that we all take on for the good of the ride.
Markers worked on AR04,05,06 and 08. (Couldn't make 07).
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Dedicated markers work even better. Especially if carefully selected.
To be honest i am agreed with this above all else.
There is only one "problem" I see with this.
As mentioned, some people see the Markers as being "special" and getting treated differently.
So if a group or people that ride regularly together end up getting chosen for just that reason - ie they know each others capabilities, then there are going to be people complaining about cliques ad the like.
And one way to kill those complaints would be to change it about a bit, if its a safe and sensible new idea. But tbh ive not seen anyone suggest a better way as yet.
Its important to pickup on what Simon is saying here. Its not an excuse to ride like a tw*t. If theres people out there reading this and are thinking
"If I'm marker then I can do what I want when I want and ride like a moron"
Then you've mis-understood the job.
Too right and if i or any of the others who have done marking were found to be guilty of this i would expect not only to be taken off marking duties but even possibly be asked to stay at the back with the TEC or go back to the site and not particiapte further in the ride.
I think the issue Anna brings up is a valid one and probably relates to the forum/mod issue again. Who is 'in' and not 'in' - and how to include those that feel excluded so the event is a greater success. Hence my suggestion for this. I agree with you all - the main thing is safety and if you feel it would be a compromise then its not worth it.
As i say, i'm more than happy to give up my bib to someone like yourself Grant. I dont wanna keep going on about you and i''m sorry that i am but its just that out of the various groups i've riden with i've always liked your style of riding.
The majority of others i've ridden with have either not left any impression on me, good or bad, or are mainly those who have been chosen to be markers before due to their experience of riding together in groups.
One thing that comes with riding in groups with the same people often is you almost instinctively know what they are about to do or are thinking about doing so you allow for it.
Those who have been on rides where i have been TEC for example all know that if i flash my lights or beep my horn its a signal that ive seen them and they dont need to wait for me to get to them before they jump back on their bike and join back in, ths keeping the ride flowing and the traffic behind us happy.
Those who have ridden with me more often when ive been TEC know that as soon as they lay eyes on me they can go.
So its just natural to have a group take on a responsibility when they know each others riding well and can take cues from each other without the need to stop and discuss it and so spoil the flow of the ride.
For the record i think the "chosen in advance" group is the safest, simplest way, however if anyhone can suggest a system whereby other can be more involved, is safe and allows for those who wont want to join in then i'm all ears.
I deliberately haven't read any of the posts above, other than the OP.
My thoughts on the subject, in order to achieve some sort of balance (as I can see both sides):
I don't see why the leader of the rideout, as happens on many other rideouts, can't say "OK, I need x markers, if you want to volunteer, go ahead. Closing date is x. From the volunteers I'll go through the list & see who I think would be suitable. If you don't get chosen, please don't get ar*ey about it, it's purely a numbers thing. If we don't get enough volunteers, I'm going to have to approach some people directly & privately to ask them if they'd be up for it."
That way, people would be asked for their contribution to it and the organiser(s) would have people they trusted.
However, that does have the problem of people volunteering, but then getting upset at not being chosen. If not enough people from the volunteers are chosen, then things revert to how they were before.
2pennies, spent. :)
Speaking from a rider's perspective (ie not a marker, or a wannabe marker), when I'm in a massive group, I would like:
1) To know that every junction will be marked by someone who has taken responsibility for this job and will definitely be there (and will have the mobile number for at least several other known markers in the group and the leader & TEC).
2) That they will be easily visible to me if a gap has opened up and I'm the 'first' rider approaching the junction; eg wearing a yellow bib (which isn't possible if 'random' people in the group are dropping off as markers). Don't forget, we won't be the only group out riding in the countryside on a Saturday in August. All it takes is for a non-org bike to be parked up near a junction somewhere for one of us to think "oooh, are they one of ours?" and take a wrong turn.
3) To feel reassured that the markers who are making their way through the group are doing that job because the leader has chosen them for their safe, consistent and considerate riding ability. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a wannabe feeling left out, than have them being chosen as a marker, regardless of known riding ability, just so that they feel included.
I'm totally happy for markers to be 'chosen' ones. Surely the main objective is to have a safe and smooth-running rideout? So if the ride leader is taking responsiblity for the ride then he / she should select people that they can trust to assist them with this.
The inevitable race to the front for unselected markers is a nightmare - as Spidey said, some people's riding manners have been appalling in the past (the difficult thing being that they were probably totally unaware that they were spooking less experienced riders).
As others have said, if it ain't broke (and 'broke' is a badly organised rideout, not a bruised ego)...
As i say, i'm more than happy to give up my bib to someone like yourself Grant.
Thanks Zig, but its not necessary. I'm not one for comitted marking or riding as free weekends are rarity in my life this year. My comments/ideas were only a suggestion to get people more involved (I hope in a positve way).
Spiderman
16-05-09, 12:29 PM
I don't see why the leader of the rideout, as happens on many other rideouts, can't say "OK, I need x markers, if you want to volunteer, go ahead. Closing date is x. From the volunteers I'll go through the list & see who I think would be suitable. If you don't get chosen, please don't get ar*ey about it, it's purely a numbers thing. If we don't get enough volunteers, I'm going to have to approach some people directly & privately to ask them if they'd be up for it."
That way, people would be asked for their contribution to it and the organiser(s) would have people they trusted.
Only problem i see with this sugestion is that it implies that the Ride Leader (RL) will be familiar with the riding ability and style of each of those who volunteered. If they're not then surely those are the first names the RL will chuck out and will only be left with the names of people who they are familiar with and have ridden with before....leaving them open again to accusations of favouritism.
Thanks Zig, but its not necessary. I'm not one for comitted marking or riding as free weekends are rarity in my life this year. My comments/ideas were only a suggestion to get people more involved (I hope in a positve way).
haha, like i sadi mate i wa just using you as an exapmle cos you're in the thread, not a Soho-er and i've ridden with you and like your riding style. Never wanted you to think i was trying to pass the buck to you there ;)
2) That they will be easily visible to me if a gap has opened up and I'm the 'first' rider approaching the junction; eg wearing a yellow bib (which isn't possible if 'random' people in the group are dropping off as markers). Don't forget, we won't be the only group out riding in the countryside on a Saturday in August. All it takes is for a non-org bike to be parked up near a junction somewhere for one of us to think "oooh, are they one of ours?" and take a wrong turn.
I agreed with all of cazza's post but this bit in articular has to be thought about. One year the only person who went off track did so just for this reason. a bike that was just passing thru our pack turned off at a roundabout and the rider directly behind him assumed he was one of us and so followed him. Its was resolved quickly and easily enough but its all to easy for it to happen.
Also i did the same thing one the way to an AR one year. Thought i was following one of us until i realise we were on roads i'd already covered.
fizzwheel
16-05-09, 12:40 PM
I don't see why the leader of the rideout, as happens on many other rideouts, can't say "OK, I need x markers, if you want to volunteer,
Thats what I did last year, Admitedly I didnt do it publically, but Strechie asked people locally if they would help out. Some of those people had already ridden the local stretches of road or some of it that we were riding on.
As ride leader I wanted some say in who was doing the marking, as per my original post in this thread.
Yet here we are, it would appear that some people appear to feel disgruntled even though I followed a process which you seem to be recommending.
I'm not reading anything at the moment, that makes me feel that the process is broken or doesnt work. I take the point about increaed feeling of participation, but my thoughts are that in this case the benefits of having pre-selected dedicated markers outweigh the disadvantages of not having the ride organised in this way.
Yet here we are, it would appear that some people appear to feel disgruntled even though I followed a process which you seem to be recommending.
As you said in another thread recently, one thing that's needed is a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.
I know I'd certainly view marking for the AR differently had I known a group of people had been asked, rather than just talking to specific individuals.
Having lead, TEC'd, marked and just plain enjoyed pretty large rides, I know all too well that marking simply requires a certain level of riding (the confidence to stop when/where necessary more than anything), and a commitment to the task (so for example, any marker should implicitly know the route). So I fully appreciate the need to "vet" people wanting to mark - but I don't see it as something that needs local knowledge at all.
Afterall, if a marker marks the junction, and someone misses that marker (as has happened on previous rides), that marker cannot go & find the missing person - otherwise more people get lost because there's no marker. Someone else would have to either take up marking, or go & find the missing person. If markers are wearing bibs, whoever started marking the junction has no real option but to stay put.
The point about breakdowns & markers helping out, I don't really feel applies. Breakdowns happen at all sorts of places, not just junctions. There will be someone on the ride with enough technical knowledge to attempt to help. Even if that means the TEC calling someone & asking them to turn around to have a look.
fizzwheel
16-05-09, 01:15 PM
As you said in another thread recently, one thing that's needed is a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.
Well I'm obivously not being listened to then, because I explained it last year, I explained it this year, I've explained in in 3 seperate posts now with regard to this year.
I'm starting to wander whether anybody actually reads what I write...
If I was anymore transparent about this particuar issue I feel I'd turn into the invisable mod...
timwilky
16-05-09, 01:32 PM
did you say something fizz?
Spiderman
16-05-09, 02:18 PM
I know I'd certainly view marking for the AR differently had I known a group of people had been asked, rather than just talking to specific individuals.
I was aksed on the day of the AR ride last year. others were too who politely turned down the offer IIRC.
So know you know Baph. ;)
(so for example, any marker should implicitly know the route).
I didn't know the route when i was aksed and tbh i dont think i needed to.
The point about breakdowns & markers helping out, I don't really feel applies. Breakdowns happen at all sorts of places, not just junctions. There will be someone on the ride with enough technical knowledge to attempt to help. Even if that means the TEC calling someone & asking them to turn around to have a look.
The point is that there is a group who are tasked with taking care of the rideout. If i was wearing a bib and saw 2 peeps pulled up, one clearly broken down and the other helping i'd know it was my job as the first there to pull up too. Even tho i probably have the least ability to help fix the breakdown. However i would have all the numbers for all the other markes in a fully chanrged up mobile, again somwthing i plan ahead for knowing i'm marking.
What use is a random stragner stopping to help who has no idea how to fix it or who to call to advise of the breakdwon? And how is this mecanichally mineded memeber of the ridout gonna answer his/her phone unless they have been previously asked to play such a role and be prepared to pull up if their phone rings...thus making them one of the marking team by default?
And it'd be silly for the TEC to stop as the other markers along the route will be waiting for him to come and ree them to go on and mark some more.
Oh and i just felt a cold shiver, like a breeze or ghost just went past me going "I am Fiiiiiiizzz, can you not see or hear me?" ;)
last year I offered my services along time before the AR and was told I was not needed.
I live local and could easily have gone over the route.
I now find out that people were asked on the day.
I AM SO ANGRY
NOT.
i have read what Fizz put and respect his decision, regarding people he knew he could rely on
I was aksed on the day of the AR ride last year. others were too who politely turned down the offer IIRC.
So know you know Baph. ;)
That's the point about transparency. Knowing so after the event isn't exactly transparent organisation IMO. :)
From gid's reply, he offered last year, and was turned down. There could be many reasons for this, but you were obviously asked Spidey as someone felt there weren't enough markers, so someone had to make up numbers.
I didn't know the route when i was aksed and tbh i dont think i needed to.
I kind of agree, just I feel that whatever rides I've been marking on (I hasten to add I've only attended one AR & didn't mark on that), I've made the effort to be aware of the route. Occasionally I've forgotten where I am due to singing to myself in the helmet though. :oops:
The point is that there is a group who are tasked with taking care of the rideout. If i was wearing a bib and saw 2 peeps pulled up, one clearly broken down and the other helping i'd know it was my job as the first there to pull up too.
Anyone that's been on virtually any NW rideout with me will know I always stop to help out, be that a breakdown, an accident or a simple knock of confidence. That's if I'm wearing a "bib" (not that NW rideouts have them) or not, though to be fair I am usually in high-vis on a rideout.
We've had talks about not stopping if someone is pulled by Police, yet I still do. If they want a look at my bike, well, that's my fault for stopping. But I wouldn't leave someone stranded in the middle of nowhere not knowing the first thing about where they were going.
...thus making them one of the marking team by default?
I don't get that at all. I know when my phone rings whilst I'm riding the bike (granted, not everyone will), and my phone is always set to only ring if it's key people calling me (not everyone has a phone that can do this) when I'm on a rideout. So by default I'd pull over & answer/call back. Again, that's if I'm marking or otherwise.
Other people will have setups like Autocom where they can talk & ride at the same time.
Being prepared to take/make a call whilst mobile on the bike isn't one of the criteria for being a marker as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't be the best person to talk to about say, a GSXR broken down at the side of the road, but I'd have a good crack at it, and carry most tools when I'm even out & about by myself. I've repaired numerous bikes at the roadside purely by being in the right place at the right time.
And it'd be silly for the TEC to stop as the other markers along the route will be waiting for him to come and ree them to go on and mark some more.
The whole point, at least to me, of having markers & TEC, is that if the TEC doesn't come, the marker waits indefinitely. If the ride has got so far, and the leaders are aware that markers aren't keeping up, the leader pulls over & gets the ride to re-group. At that point, anyone could be sent back to enquire about the hold-up.
What would happen if the TEC, for example, was taken out in a SMIDSY (not that I'd want that for a second but it illustrates the point of the TEC not arriving at a marked junction)?
Well, I'm quite happy to volunteer for the post. I hope my riding hasn't offended or scared anyone in the past*, I've marked the last 2 ARs and have great fun thinking up new and stupid poses to adopt while marking (Including AR07 when I was seen "marking" a junction with scent...)
This does not mean that I feel I have the right or the duty to assume I'm a better/faster/prettier/more special rider than anyone else, or that I should use my "privilege" to ride like a twonk. It just means that I understand the system and am reasonably good at communicating it to others (IE I have a good shouty voice!)
I think it was last year that we had me and a marker from another rideout marking the same junction, non-bibbed markers would have been confusing for them and us when they took a different route from us at the next junction! If it ain't broke...
*If I have, please PM me so I know as I'd hate for there to be something about the weekend that annoys anyone, 'specially if I cause it!
Spiderman
16-05-09, 04:19 PM
... a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.
That's the point about transparency. Knowing so after the event isn't exactly transparent organisation IMO. :)
You're kinda contradicting yourself now. Which is it, a certain amount of transparency or every single person on the AR knowing about desicion making procesess? Or, and i say this is the nicest possible way, if you had been consulted it would have been alright then?
From gid's reply, he offered last year, and was turned down. yes and he's not at all bother about it, so why bring it up? Like i said i want this discussion to be about a better system if anyone can come up with one, not just general chit chat abut the whole marking process and how it works or who was or wasn't chosen.
you were obviously asked Spidey as someone felt there weren't enough markers, so someone had to make up numbers. yes, i was walking along minding my own business and someone came up to me and said they wanted me to be a maker and would i mind. Why they were short never crossed my mind. I was asked to help the organisers and i happily agreed to. There really was nothing more to it than that, no funny sercet handshakes or any of that.
I know when my phone rings whilst I'm riding the bike (granted, not everyone will), and my phone is always set to only ring if it's key people calling me (not everyone has a phone that can do this) when I'm on a rideout. So by default I'd pull over & answer/call back. Again, that's if I'm marking or otherwise.
Ok thats you and again this is a discussion about smaller regional rides, not the AR which is far bigger and welcomes riders of all capapbilities.
I dont answer my phone when i ride my bike, ever. Not on a ride out, not when i'm late for something, never. The point you're not getting is that we would have to organise who this magically talented person is in advance and ask them if they would provide such a service and miss out on possibly a large part the rideout if needs be. If they agree then we may as well give them a bib so if/when another markes sees that person pulled up next to a broken down bike they can carry on knowing its taken care of. If they didn't have a bib then everyone on the marker team would have to slow up and try and remember if thats the person or not. Thus slowing down all the markers for no reason, bibs just make it clear its one of the team without the need to think about it.
Other people will have setups like Autocom where they can talk & ride at the same time. Other people in other situations and other times. The whole of the marking team dont have or need or rely on communicating, they know the drill.
Being prepared to take/make a call whilst mobile on the bike isn't one of the criteria for being a marker as far as I'm concerned. No one said it was :confused:
The whole point, at least to me, of having markers & TEC, is that if the TEC doesn't come, the marker waits indefinitely. If the ride has got so far, and the leaders are aware that markers aren't keeping up, the leader pulls over & gets the ride to re-group. At that point, anyone could be sent back to enquire about the hold-up. thus slowing up the whole group, making the entire group find somewhere suitably large and safe to pull up and wait. Why? If one or 2 can deal with problem at roadside and the rest of the pack can just carry on and not let it spoil their day?
What would happen if the TEC, for example, was taken out in a SMIDSY (not that I'd want that for a second but it illustrates the point of the TEC not arriving at a marked junction)? as good a question as what would happen if a drunk driver drove head first into the lead pack of bikes.
We can allow for a certain number of contingencies, not every possibility.
Again Baph, i feel you're generalising about the whole idea of marking, not actually suggesting a new idea that we could discuss and disect looking for possible falws to the idea.
I aksed for this thread to please be about any ideas that anyone may have based on trying to give more people the feeling of participating, so if you have an idea i'd love to hear it, if not please lets not have huge long posts where we are just quoting each other and debating ideas about marking as a whole.
I aksed for this thread to please be about any ideas that anyone may have based on trying to give more people the feeling of participating, so if you have an idea i'd love to hear it, if not please lets not have huge long posts where we are just quoting each other and debating ideas about marking as a whole.
I suggest you re-read my first post in this thread then.
I seriously fail to see why that discussion could not of been held out in the open, prior to the AR happening. That is the idea I'm putting forward for the next one, but you seem to be completely ignoring.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 04:28 PM
Not ignoring it, i adressed it mate.
OK if i was leading the Ar and asked "who wants to be a marker" and you and a number of others ive never met or ridden with, thus have no idea of their riding style or capability, volunteered then how on earth would i be in a positin to decide if those people were up to the job?
You see the difficulty there surely?
Not ignoring it, i adressed it mate.
There we disagree, only your last post, that I'm now replying to addressed it IMO.
You see the difficulty there surely?
I do, I also see it as a fine balancing act. But you asked for ideas on how to help people feel included, so I gave it.
If you give people the chance to volunteer, surely they are then incapable of saying later they weren't included. Yes, it makes organisation more of a headache, but that's inevitable if you're going to include more people in the process.
As to "how would you determine who was capable"... that's the whole point of the discussion up front, before the AR, surely? Once volunteers have come forward, the organiser(s) can talk to them properly, either publicly or otherwise.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 04:32 PM
I have and i did address it for you mate Only problem i see with this sugestion is that it implies that the Ride Leader (RL) will be familiar with the riding ability and style of each of those who volunteered. If they're not then surely those are the first names the RL will chuck out and will only be left with the names of people who they are familiar with and have ridden with before....leaving them open again to accusations of favouritism.
I have and i did address it for you mate
I'll hold my hands up there & admit I missed that.
But I still see no reason why the RL cannot discuss it with anyone that wants to be a marker. Then after talking it through with them, and perhaps utilising the search function of the site if needed, make a more informed decision as to the riding ability of any given person.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 04:37 PM
As to "how would you determine who was capable"... that's the whole point of the discussion up front, before the AR, surely? Once volunteers have come forward, the organiser(s) can talk to them properly, either publicly or otherwise.
Baph i appreciate your input, i really do and i'm not being condesceding saying that. But for all the talk in the world unless the ride leader or TEC has ridden with those who voluntee,r all the talk in the world is cheap tbh.
the ride leader or tec would be amiss in my opinion if they chose markers based on what they said about their riding. I think for something with such large groups they really would have to be picked on the say of people who have ridden with them on the road in appropriate situations.
But for all the talk in the world unless the ride leader or TEC has ridden with those who voluntee,r all the talk in the world is cheap tbh.
Then there we disagree. If you maintain that attitude towards it, marking on the AR will always be limited to those that know each other personally, and especially those new to the site (who may of been riding for years to an advanced level) will feel excluded.
I personally felt that the group of markers on AR07 were the "elitest few" for want of better words. But I'd also only been riding for a little over 6 months, so there's no way I'd of wanted to mark at that stage anyway. I still had the feeling of exclusion though.
To answer your question of "would you of felt better if we'd of asked you?" To be frank, no. Not unless such questionning was done publicly, and everyone was invited. Otherwise I'd of turned the offer down on principal, due mainly to the above paragraph.
fizzwheel
16-05-09, 04:52 PM
I personally felt that the group of markers on AR07 were the "elitest few" for want of better words.
OK, so did you feel the same about that with regard to AR08 ?
As you werent there I wander if you'll find it hard to answer the question, but did the process and my thoughts help you understand where I was coming from with it.
Also which is better
1. Marking done right by a group of experienced people who are all properly breifed and know what they are doing
2. Marking done by 2nd man regardless of who that is who
Might not stop
Might stop in the wrong place
Might not wait for TEC to come along
Might then ride like a tw*t all the way back up the pack buzzing everybody else in the process
Might do a thorougly excellent job
3. Some other solution
Is it better to sacrifice a feeling of "participation & Transparency" so that the over all safety of the ride, those doing the ride is put first ?
OK, so did you feel the same about that with regard to AR08 ?
As you said, I wasn't there, so I really don't feel able to comment period.
Also which is better
1. Marking done right by a group of experienced people who are all properly breifed and know what they are doing
2. Marking done by 2nd man regardless of who that is...
I personally believe option 1 is the better, but it's how those riders are picked that I'm suggesting is looked at.
Is it better to sacrifice a feeling of "participation & Transparency" so that the over all safety of the ride, those doing the ride is put first ?
I fail to see why it must be one or the other. The above reads to me as if you believe that if random people were asked to volunteer, and the ride leader went through that list & discussed things with those people to work out who was suitable, that more people would get lost automatically?
this is going round and round.Ive been riding for over 25 yrs and as Far as I can see,on a rideout of this size then Im inclined to go with Fizzes first option.
As anyone who as ridden with me will know I ALWAYS volunteer to be tec,and get fed up with people flying off in all directions because a junction is left unmarked.
We had one ocasion on the Welsh TT where people ended up 20 miles in the wrong direction
Am I right in thinking that:
1) The decision has been made to have dedicated markers for the AR
2) That the leaders have to have "utmost faith" in those markers
Therefore the decision making process is going to be is some way closed i.e. the leaders have the final decision.
3) Fizz, to his credit, would like to be all inclusive and avoid another Them & Us situation on the forum & AR
So...why not put in place some format for those keen to be a dedicated marker to make themselves known? and publicise it far & wide :smt102 with those putting themselves forward knowing that they are subject to being either an unknown quantity, or a known hazard and will not be selected.
Originally Posted by Baph http://forums.sv650.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=1909897#post1909897)
I personally felt that the group of markers on AR07 were the "elitest few" for want of better words.
OK, so did you feel the same about that with regard to AR08 ?
I wasn't at AR07 but I was at AR08 so I'll answer for Baph
Yes.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 05:33 PM
Then there we disagree. If you maintain that attitude towards it, marking on the AR will always be limited to those that know each other personally, and especially those new to the site (who may of been riding for years to an advanced level) will feel excluded.
I dont think we're disagreeing tbh, more like seeing opposite sides of the same coin.
I agree that it does limit new members...but for a while. As an example all thru this thread i've mentioned Demonz (grant) and his riding. I'm sure if i was not wanting to be a marker and my opinion for a replacment was sought i'd suggest him. Why? Cos he's never been an AR marker and i think he'd be an asset to the team.
BTW i've ridden with Demonz 3 times over probably as many years now. Once to an AR i think, once somewhere else and once on a day trip to France. I probably shared those experiences with a few others too but as i said before none of the riding i saw left a memory on me, either bad or good...except his as being exceptional in a pack.
fizzwheel
16-05-09, 05:44 PM
I personally believe option 1 is the better, but it's how those riders are picked that I'm suggesting is looked at.
Points noted. It does need looking at, but we can debate the matter till we're blue in the face.
We're now going round in circles which isnt helping matters either.
I honestly feel that its to late now to change the marker system for AR09 and I dont want Supervox to go through extra stress about this years arrangements especially as time is ticking away.
However I will promise this :
1. When it comes to next year it will be done differently, the whole point of this thread is so that we know where we went wrong and we can do things differently. As Stu says I want this to be more inclusive and as a team / forum we need to find a way to do this that does so, but at the same time doesnt comprise the safety of the rideout itself.
2. I have my name down for marking this year. I am quite willing to give up my bib. Its not surgically attatched to it. I really dont care whether I do it or not. So if anybody wants to take my place they should speak to Supervox about it.
3. If Supervox decides he wants to open this years route marking up and change this years arrangements I will leave that to his discression. At the end of the day he is ride organiser and he must be comfortable IMHO with the arrangements.
I'll apologise now for this derail, but I think it's needed.
Stu, I know I just said the same in PM, but seriously, thank you. I've been saying in threads recently about having conversations with people outside the forum, but hardly any of those people have been vocal in those threads. As such, I've vowed to only put my opinions forwards, and not wave a stick to show that there's issues that exist.
I know we're talked about marking at the ARs, outside the forum in the past Stu, so again, thank you for having the conviction to post publicly.
EDITED to prevent the circle continuing.
Points noted. It does need looking at, but we can debate the matter till we're blue in the face.
We're now going round in circles which isnt helping matters either.
Fizz, thank you. That's all that was needed pages ago. I agree that things are going around in circles. I've made my point, it's been listened to, so I'll now bow out of the thread, with the utmost respect to those involved with the planning.
I also agree it's too late to change anything about AR09.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 06:01 PM
So...why not put in place some format for those keen to be a dedicated marker to make themselves known? and publicise it far & wide :smt102 with those putting themselves forward knowing that they are subject to being either an unknown quantity, or a known hazard and will not be selected.
Thats what i'm asing for my man. I've wracked all my little grey cells again and again and really cant see a usefull or constructive way of doing this so i'm asking for ideas. Any well thought out ideas are more than welcome.
I'll apologise now for this derail, but I think it's needed.
Stu, I know I just said the same in PM, but seriously, thank you. I've been saying in threads recently about having conversations with people outside the forum, but hardly any of those people have been vocal in those threads. As such, I've vowed to only put my opinions forwards, and not wave a stick to show that there's issues that exist.
I know we're talked about marking at the ARs, outside the forum in the past Stu, so again, thank you for having the conviction to post publicly.
Absolutely right Baph and i thank you too Stu. I really do want everyone who has thought the system isn't perfect and can think of a way to adjust the system to speak up.
I think Baph has done a sterling job getting the bedate this far but i encourage EVERYBODY else who's ever been to an AR, weather they had issue with the marking or not, to put their thinking caps on and present a good idea that we can discuss and disect and adjust until we come up with somethign better that works.
Thats what i'm asing for my man. I've wracked all my little grey cells again and again and really cant see a usefull or constructive way of doing this so i'm asking for ideas. Any well thought out ideas are more than welcome.
Well, I would have started a public poll asking who is definitely coming to the AR and who would like to be a dedicated marker.
This would have resulted in a list such as
Airwolf (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8764), AlpineCarStereo (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=3825), arcdef (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=9761), Bear (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=4075), Bender (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=4081), Bluethunder (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=7174), Cazza (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=2958), ChrisCaveman (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8469), davepreston (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=9515), El Saxo (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=2185), EssexDave (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=7836), foxyinleather (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8195), Girth (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=5351), Jinxy43 (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8093), joshmac (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=7777), Lozzo (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=6245), Magnum (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=9802), mattSV (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=47), Miss Alpinestarhero (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=5703), Mogs (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=1437), MR UKI (1) (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=4809), phil24_7 (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=5459), Raf (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=24), RichT (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=9323), Spiderman (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=2336), Stig_Of_The_Dump (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=1488), Stu (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=4575), Supervox (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=3259), TazDaz (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8889), teriyakimonkey (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=5624), the_lone_wolf (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=5545), VolatileParsley (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8614), warg60 (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=8885)
(This is TLW's poll of who's coming)
From that list you could easily discount a few such as:
arcdef, "sorry but you're new so we don't know anything about you"
Miss Alpinestarhero "sorry but you're a pillion" :lol:
The rest can be discussed among the AR organising committee to get the number you need and the rest can get the answer "thanks for offering, but we've got enough, we'll bear you in mind for next year or anything else requiring organising on the day such as the organised rideout from the campsite to the start of the ride which would have been nice in AR08.
Now you may end up with the exactly same people as if it had been all done behind closed doors :smt102
But at least you won't end up with people offering beforehand and not being wanted only to find out that the Soho Massive was asked to do so on the day of the AR.
Or people wanting to offer but seeing as they are not moderators then they can't put their name on the same list that Fizz put his on.
Spiderman
16-05-09, 07:06 PM
Thanks Stu.
i thought part of the issue for some was that there was a team of dedicated markers, not just who they were or how the selection was made. i thought that some wanted it to be a "2nd man drop off" system? perhaps thos that do will post something relevant in due course.
personaly i think a dedicated team is better but thats just my view of course.
The only small problem i can see with your suggestion is that we may simply be inundated with volunteers and to weed out the suitable ones would be very time consuming.
Also if we make a shortlist and some of those dont make it on the day then we'll be having to ask others that were put down as stand bys. And if they are not "feeling it" that day then are we asking too much of them and putting them on the spot, making them feel that they must say yes for being thought of as a let down? I know a few people had a few too many shandies last year the night before the rideout, anyone chosen to mark knows they cant be doing that.
As a wise man once said...with great power comes great responsibility. Now where might i have heard that i wonder? ;)
Hand on heart, yes I would prefer a 2nd man system than dedicated markers.
BUT just up the warnings given to people that
1. You do not leave your post until tomorrow :shock: If the Police tell you to move on, just say you've broken down (flick the kill switch) & it's unlikely they would start your bike for you - no other excuse is valid for moving before the TEC
2. You only overtake when safe to do so & once you approach the front you stop overtaking and only progress to 2nd man by people in front of you marking.
But I'm not organising and if dedicated marking has been decided upon so be it.
I thought this thread was trying to make the dedicated marking system more transparent & inclusive.
I don't see how weeding out the volunteers could be more time consuming than starting with a blank sheet of paper & deciding who you are going to ask to be a marker.
I thought a shortlist was the system in place for 07, 08 & 09 - you seem to be arguing against dedicated markers :smt102
:)
I like the idea of markers as being people that have been proactive in the community and have either participated in ride-outs as a marker/organiser and/or has ridden in the host area with the organiser a few times. I think you guys are right from a safety perspective with so many bikes it is the right thing to do.
But I really think that if being a marker was open and inclusive then it could foster greater pariticipation should folks wish to be part of this.
A suggesiton. How about creating some criterea to be markers on the day. One of the criterea could be any new markers must participate with a shakedown run with the ride leader as well as ridden the system as part of a group on the route. This could happen as part of the overall organisation etc and could help the organiser to ensure the routes and hazards are all checked prior as I am sure the organiser would like feedback and assistance.
Or if they are not local then they must have organised a few of local runs using the drop-off system with their section. Maybe it would help to build a greater local community through this as well. When I mean use the drop off system then use and communicate a standard set of rules such as what we used for France. These rules work when communicated clearly.
Other critereas maybe they are included for being IAM members or the such which all know the marker system well and I would consider as some of the safer riders out there who can bring a wealth of knowledge along with them. We can steel part of their regime and integrate it into our own values for training or meeting a criterea first.
Eitherway if you have a lot of folks that are professional enough to make the effort and meet the given criterea and the criterea is sensible and available to all then great.
I disagree with thinking markers have been chosen and thats that as I dont think you could have to many markers in a ride-out. In fact I think it would make it even safer as it would mean there is less pressure for markers to overtake and cause undue stress on all trying to get to the head. They can take their time moving ahead.
On another note if people are not markers and want to stop or drop off along the way then I think this should be encouraged and communicated to all. If a marker sees they are a potential hazard they are right there to say something to them. It's neat to see bikes going past and everyone likes to see the pictures afterwards. It gives riders the opportunity to participate = everyone can be included .
fizzwheel
16-05-09, 09:30 PM
But I really think that if being a marker was open and inclusive then it could foster greater pariticipation should folks wish to be part of this.
I totally understand where your coming from on this one.
A suggesiton. How about creating some criterea to be markers on the day. One of the criterea could be any new markers must participate with a shakedown run with the ride leader as well as ridden the system as part of a group on the route. This could happen as part of the overall organisation etc and could help the organiser to ensure the routes and hazards are all checked prior as I am sure the organiser would like feedback and assistance.
Or if they are not local then they must have organised a few of local runs using the drop-off system with their section. Maybe it would help to build a greater local community through this as well. When I mean use the drop off system then use and communicate a standard set of rules such as what we used for France. These rules work when communicated clearly.
Other critereas maybe they are included for being IAM members or the such which all know the marker system well and I would consider as some of the safer riders out there who can bring a wealth of knowledge along with them. We can steel part of their regime and integrate it into our own values for training or meeting a criterea first.
IMHO all the markers we used last year met the above criteria. So with that in mind I think thats both sensible and achievable. Theres no point setting the bar to high and then it not being achievable. I'm not 100% on the IAM membership bit though.
On another note if people are not markers and want to stop or drop off along the way then I think this should be encouraged and communicated to all. If a marker sees they are a potential hazard they are right there to say something to them.
This happened as far as I can tell during AR08 I am reasonably confident that Mattsv marked a junction and stayed there till a marker with a bib on caught up to the front and marked the junction instead allowing him to move on again.
I saw Stu stop and mark an exit of a roundabout, IIRC Sid Squid was there at the exit and stopped either just before or at the same time as Stu did. I definately recall seeing two Kwaks at the roundabout and neither of them had a "bear shaped" rider on them...
IIRC as well Cazza stopped to mark a junction as we peeled off to go over the ranges before we stopped at the view point overlooking Swanage / Lullworth she stopped at the junction till Sid Squid took over and she waited with Sid until I caught up ( I was TEC at that point )
Personally even if theres dedicated markers quite happy for peeps to stop I'd much rather that they stopped and marked rather than leaving a junction with nobody on it.
I'm still concious that some people use marking as an excuse to hoon through the pack a few people have said it on the forum in the past and I've also seen it happen. I am keen on making sure its not used as an excuse in this way.
I'm still concious that some people use marking as an excuse to hoon through the pack a few people have said it on the forum in the past and I've also seen it happen. I am keen on making sure its not used as an excuse in this way.
Yes I agree. Maybe add to the rules no overtaking markers. And markers cant overtake markers (unless they are marking) - then have lots of qualified markers... :lol: that ought to work.
ArtyLady
16-05-09, 09:46 PM
I don't get it! I really don't!...what's the big deal about being a marker?!!:smt102 Does it make you more attractive to the opposite sex or something? Aren't people grateful that marshalls are laid on for them? I know I wouldn't want to do it - far too much responsibility!...Oh wait a minute...of course! if I was to do it I could show off my riding skills:notworthy:!;-)....No, I just want to enjoy the ride and if someone else has gone to the trouble to organise, lead and marshall it - great! Seriously...what IS the problem?! :rolleyes: :-?
petevtwin650
17-05-09, 12:01 AM
I like being a marker. I have done it before and have the confidence and experience to position myself so that I can be clearly seen to all the following bikes. I also enjoy progressing back to the front as usually a rideout pace may be slower than I prefer to travel. I may inadvertendly buzz someone or been perceived to do so. We are not all perfect riders all of the time. You cannot vet all the riders on a rideout whether they be markers or not. I have had bikes I'm passing pull out in front of me without looking or indicating. **** happens. At the end of the day we are all mates together as far as I'm concerned.
I do get a buzz from doing marking but also feel I'm helping, in a very small way, towards the smooth running of everybodies day.
northwind
17-05-09, 02:12 AM
I have no idea why anyone wants to be a marker. I like being TEC, you never need to overtake anyone, and if you need to stop for a wee, nobody even knows :smt003
On 06, at one point I went completely off the rideout route, because there was a bike parked just off a roundabout who was nothing to do with the rideout. Luckily I twigged almost immediately otherwise I'd still be in wales to this day. Not to mention quite a few totally unmarked junctions where it became a leap of faith. Instead of picking holes in the system we have, just look at what it avoids.
ArtyLady
17-05-09, 08:11 AM
Northwind exactly my point about it being a responsibilty - I would much rather be TEC too if I had to choose :)
IMO there seem to be 5 types of rider in this whole debacle...sorry - scenario -
those who have the riding skills/attitude necessary to be a marker and don't need to massage their ego but genuinely are the type to enjoy helping out.=D>
those who have the riding skills necessary to be a marker and AND an ego they want to massage :rolleyes:
those who have limited/mediocre riding skills AND an ego that they want to massage. :rolleyes:
those who have limited/mediocre riding skills and ADMIT that to themselves BUT don't need to prove anything.=D>
those who have the riding skills/attitude necessary to be a marker and NO ego BUT they just want to enjoy the ride :D
fizzwheel
17-05-09, 08:48 AM
I do get a buzz from doing marking but also feel I'm helping, in a very small way, towards the smooth running of everybodies day.
Pete, were you bothered about not being asked to be marker on AR08 and what did you think to the marker system that was run on the day ?
This happened as far as I can tell during AR08 I am reasonably confident that Mattsv marked a junction and stayed there till a marker with a bib on caught up to the front and marked the junction instead allowing him to move on again.
I think this was after we left Dorchester, opportunities for the markers to work their way back up were a bit limited due to the narrow roads, and eventually I found myself behind your Dad - we got to a T Junction, and there were no markers available so I stopped to mark it. I actually stayed and marked until quite a few 'official' markers had gone past - thought it better to give them a chance to work back up the front. It also gave me an opportunity to take a few pics of people approaching/leaving the junction
I had no issues with the choice of markers - whils Fizz would not actually have been responsible had anyone been lost/injured etc on the ride, I know that he would have been gutted if anything had happened. As organiser, he needed a team of people he could trust, without causing issues for anyone else on the road.
I would have been very happy to have been an 'official' marker, not because I wanted to 'feel special' to to have 'the right to blat through the pack' (although that is a buzz) - more because I would have felt that I had been able to help and contribute something to the day.
i like being a marker. I have done it before and have the confidence and experience to position myself so that i can be clearly seen to all the following bikes. I also enjoy progressing back to the front as usually a rideout pace may be slower than i prefer to travel. I may inadvertendly buzz someone or been perceived to do so. We are not all perfect riders all of the time. You cannot vet all the riders on a rideout whether they be markers or not. I have had bikes i'm passing pull out in front of me without looking or indicating. **** happens. At the end of the day we are all mates together as far as i'm concerned.
I do get a buzz from doing marking but also feel i'm helping, in a very small way, towards the smooth running of everybodies day.
+1
i would have been very happy to have been an 'official' marker, not because i wanted to 'feel special' to to have 'the right to blat through the pack' more because i would have felt that i had been able to help and contribute something to the day.
+1
Northwind exactly my point about it being a responsibilty - I would much rather be TEC too if I had to choose :)
IMO there seem to be 5 types of rider in this whole debacle...sorry - scenario -
those who have the riding skills/attitude necessary to be a marker and don't need to massage their ego but genuinely are the type to enjoy helping out.=D>
those who have the riding skills necessary to be a marker and AND an ego they want to massage :rolleyes:
those who have limited/mediocre riding skills AND an ego that they want to massage. :rolleyes:
those who have limited/mediocre riding skills and ADMIT that to themselves BUT don't need to prove anything.=D>
those who have the riding skills/attitude necessary to be a marker and NO ego BUT they just want to enjoy the ride :D
:lol: I dont know about the others but I personally dont think stereotyping and categorising folks would work to well on the day :D
No harm in wanting to TEC though.
ArtyLady
17-05-09, 10:41 AM
:lol: I dont know about the others but I personally dont think stereotyping and categorising folks would work to well on the day :D
No harm in wanting to TEC though.
You misunderstood the point of my post - I wasn't suggesting categorising folk on the day in any way shape or form - I was just making a general observation :)
I wouldn't WANT to TEC either, I was just saying...IF I had to chose :)
Spiderman
17-05-09, 01:13 PM
Thanks for all the constructive comments so far folks.
... I just want to enjoy the ride and if someone else has gone to the trouble to organise, lead and marshall it - great!
All the ARs i went on before this is exactly how i felt about the marking and organising. And tbh i still do.
I agree the "2nd man" system gives a lot more people the chance to participate, of that there is no doubt. But please bear in mind that some just want to come along and ride without the added requirment to mark any junctions at all.
My main concerns for the 2nd man system are these:
1. What about those who DONT want to mark at all. No one on the ride should be expected to partake of this activity unless they want to. Do we ask those who dont want to partake to stay in a pack near the back of the ride? Wil that be unfair and kinda spoil their ride/day?
2. How do we know who wants to participate without bibs? Clearly gonna be way more than i could memorise i know that much.
3. How do those who have marked a junction and are making their way back up thru those who dont want to mark know they are now "in the queue" to mark again without bibs?
As i mentioned earlier, on AR06 it was perfectly clear that me and the rider beside me were in this queue cos we were the only 2 directly behind the ride leader...yet a couple of hot headed bikes decided they wanted to force their way in front of us. And not very safely or politely either. They saw the whole thing as a game and tbh it really pee'd me off. If someone rode like that around me at any other time i'd be having some strong words with them about it. But its the AR and the last thing i wanted to do was have any bad atmosphere in the campground.
I'd hate to see say 80% of the riders wearing bibs to signify their marking and the other 20% not wearing anything, it'll make the group look wrong and again instill this sense of "them & us" thats been discussed already.
I know on our Soho rideouts we use the "2nd man" system all the time and it works flawlessly. However and i cant stress these factors enough...we ride together far more frequently than any of the other regions and our rides are normally a group of 5 - 15 or so. And the AR is far, far bigger than that.
Please remember the organisers want a headache free day, its a day for fun for them too and if it involves having to take people to one side to "have a word" about their riding it spoils the atmosphere for those involved.
petevtwin650
17-05-09, 08:00 PM
Pete, were you bothered about not being asked to be marker on AR08 and what did you think to the marker system that was run on the day ?
Fizz, my post wasn't a comment on the AR08 marking, rather I was trying to give an insight to those who wonder what the markers get out of it.
I wasn't in the least put out about not being asked.
TBH, I can't really remember what the marking was like so I guess it must've been OK:confused:
I saw what I would consider dodgy riding but can't recollect any of them being specifically markers. No worse than you'd get going out for a Sunday ride at a busy bikers area IMO.
Also I don't think that a marker need know the route, just what is expected of them.
Alpinestarhero
17-05-09, 08:05 PM
please please please dont change how it worked from last year. I felt safe with how it was last year, like i couyld get on with riding and not having to worry about where i was going.
I dislike group riding quite alot, and the AR is the only thing i would happuily do since i know I can go at my own pace, thanks to the TEC and markers who'll wait
BTW I am not prepared to do any marking, since those who do mark appear to need to ride at a heightened pace, to ensure they can get to their next junction. I simply wont ride faster than I feel safe, so I wont mark.
I will, however, stick by with the slow-coaches who just want to bimble along with someone to keep an eye on them. I'm confident at what I do at least :D
fizzwheel
17-05-09, 08:09 PM
I simply wont ride faster than I feel safe, so I wont mark.
TBH this is the most important thing on any ride whether you are a marker ot not.
Even when I have been doing marking I never ride faster than I feel it safe to do so. I never ride out of my comfort zone just to make progress because thats how accidents happen.
Alpinestarhero
17-05-09, 08:12 PM
TBH this is the most important thing on any ride whether you are a marker ot not.
Even when I have been doing marking I never ride faster than I feel it safe to do so. I never ride out of my comfort zone just to make progress because thats how accidents happen.
I think my comfort zone is alot lower than other people's...for example, today i was riding in the pi55ing rain at what i felt was a nice pace for the conditions. Low and behold, I got owned b a bloke on a (nice) 916, happliy going faster than me.
I'll bimble along and eat all the food at the bbq after, and thank the markers, leader and TEC with big hugs cos im that kinda guy
yorkie_chris
17-05-09, 08:14 PM
I cannot see any other way to go about it other than the established system.
I was at AR07 with designated markers while relatively new, none of them came past like f##knuggets, I wasn't ragging it so never got to the front of the group. It all seemed to run very smoothly.
I ran a little rideout a few months ago and led it, worrying about whether people were going to mark was THE MOST stressful thing going on during the ride! With designated, known, identifiable markers this would be negated almost completely.
The only benefit to me of 2nd man marking system is if you care to ride at a faster pace than the leader, then you still get chance to stretch your legs a little and make progress catching up again after dropping off.
If there had been designated markers on say, the Glencoe run, I would have been bored off my t1ts sat behind the leader/next markers. This is only advantage of 2nd man marking system.*
But, this doesn't seem like a worthwhile thing on the AR which is much slower. And, if any quick riders simply set off at the back of the pack, by the time they are near the front and at risk of getting bored at the leaders pace** then it will be about the time for a stop anyway since they are only 30 miles apart.
Regarding any ill-feeling, the only people who will whinge about not being markers are the very worst ones to do it. You need people who are quick-ish with nothing to prove. This sort of rider will not whinge about it if they've not been picked either.
You've got a system that works as close to perfectly as is reasonable to expect for a relaxed paced rideout like the AR, and the reasons for this system are perfectly clear to anyone with half a brain. AND there is no viable alternative. It ain't broke, so don't fix it.
*Given that we are comparing the merits on a large ride such as the AR.
** Obviously the leader cannot ride at too interesting a pace as the markers need to gain a lot of ground.
northwind
17-05-09, 08:17 PM
The only benefit to me of 2nd man marking system is if you care to ride at a faster pace than the leader, then you still get chance to stretch your legs a little and make progress catching up again after dropping off.
If there had been designated markers on say, the Glencoe run, I would have been bored off my t1ts sat behind the leader/next markers. This is only advantage of 2nd man marking system.*
Ah, but there's nothing stopping you from just pulling up anyway, keep a marker company... So you actually get more control, since you'll never HAVE to stop but you can choose to.
Oh, and also the GM had 1/3 as many riders and 1/3 as many junctions :cool:
yorkie_chris
17-05-09, 08:22 PM
Ah, but there's nothing stopping you from just pulling up anyway, keep a marker company... So you actually get more control, since you'll never HAVE to stop but you can choose to.
Oh, and also the GM had 1/3 as many riders and 1/3 as many junctions :cool:
A fair point well made, but, if you're not a marker then people would probably have the attitude of "why are you riding at normal pace? you're not a marker, you don't need to be at the front".
Then you get the usual quandary of how much pace to actually utilise (but nobody came back and smacked me at the Glencoe so I must have guessed about right!)
I understand there is a size a ride needs to be for the designated system to work.
Other critereas maybe they are included for being IAM members ...
Trouble with this is I know an IAM member who, despite not being a marker was seen buzzing the pack and riding antisocially on another organised ride I was on. I've also ridden with this individual and had more wincing moments than I've had with total newbies.
IAM membership shows that you rode to a system on a particular day, NOT that you are a flawless rider all the time. Similar to the driving test, they teach you how to pass an exam, not how to ride every day. (IMHO)
Alpinestarhero
18-05-09, 11:32 AM
Bear, +1. I don't see the need for "qualified" markers, just riders who are confident and considerate, and give a cheery wave as we blast by (poodle by?)
IMO, everyone who marked last year were fantastic :smt080
I like being a marker. I have done it before and have the confidence and experience to position myself so that I can be clearly seen to all the following bikes. I also enjoy progressing back to the front as usually a rideout pace may be slower than I prefer to travel. I may inadvertendly buzz someone or been perceived to do so. We are not all perfect riders all of the time. You cannot vet all the riders on a rideout whether they be markers or not. I have had bikes I'm passing pull out in front of me without looking or indicating. **** happens. At the end of the day we are all mates together as far as I'm concerned.
I do get a buzz from doing marking but also feel I'm helping, in a very small way, towards the smooth running of everybodies day.
+1
Quiff Wichard
18-05-09, 11:27 PM
well. I have read this with interest. dont want to preach to the converted- most contributors tothis thread are experienced and know orgers..
I am concerned though that it might put off new folk from coming to an AR ... so I throw me 2 p in.. it is scary your first AR sometimes your first ever group ride,and it does make you feel a "proper biker" bein on a biking break in a big group, all the more reason to have established systems in place and not random markers.
I DO NOT want to mark ta.. I aint "workin" on my weekend off.. (oh I dont work anyway but thats beside the point)
to me I always assume- and me been on 4 AR's now.. that the usual suspects will mark junctions.. that being local knowledge folk and then Sid, Spidey, bear , jambo, Raf, Grinch etc etc.. not because they are better than anyone else although allhighly competent I might add.. but because they are indeed fluid, organised and ride together all the time and know each others moves and styles.. it does tak some competence and indeed confidence to get back to the front and "make progress" whilst not appearing to "hoon" and look like you having fun or indeed buzz a less experienced rider on a first AR and put them off forever.
NOW, although these guys are crazyand zany and up for a larrrf.. they are totally serious where and when needed and mature and responsible when Marking.. As we are now in their Manor... I am assuming it will be the usual guy who mark. and I for one am happy with that because it dos givemea "safe" and warm feeling seeing the high vis vests sweep past me and mark the junctions and knowing that they WILL get back to the front so there is always a high vis at a corner..
As competent a rider as I am.. I would not want to force myself upon them (well maybe on bear hmm mmm ) demanding to be a marker because I need to Willy Wave because I believe it would be detrimental and upset the balance.. these guys do the job and do it well..
wait n see if you not been before- we all gassing faggin laughing before hanf but somehwere you will see the high vis in a gropu with Sid or similar briefing them .. we enjoy they prepare.. then we split into smaller groups of 5 or ten with one marker to give us a more intimate brief and ensure ALL understand the system before we set off -
It works.. it always has.. why change it.. I fully appreciate the responsibility in being a Marker and to me that far outweighs the "perceived prestige" ... for me it would detract from my day to have that reponsibility and so I abdicate responsibilty to those who are better at it than me.. maybe with Maturity (ok old age) one can begin to be a little more humble and accept that some things others are better at..
Howoften have you been on a rideout and a couple of fools have turned up that you knwo you dont like riding with or indeed some folks you have never ridden with so you decide hmmm not today ... well these markers need to ride with folks they know and trust and have faith in.. I tell you now, I am not slow.. but I am amazed when I see spidey or bear or a n other marking a junction then within 3 mins I see then inmy mirror move over and they pas me- safely- and mark another junction - they are competent and safe. and thats what you need.. what we dont need are in pack none markers hoonin all over NOT in high vis - sense and sensibility willmake for a great day ... A fire sat night a beer or ten - stories and tales and evetyone safe with all bikes undamaged that is what makes a good AR ... The Freedom and the friends. ..(with the odd naked Grinch thrown in)
Ride safe, ride strong you high vis protectors of my safety and progress for you are the epitomy of southern shandy drinkers .. xx
apologies if that upsets anyone , but thats how I see it .. and to me at the end of the day its Messie and others who have organised it and I feel it is so eay to chip in with I want that we want this, the markers are integral.. we are a hell of a lot of bikes getting a hell of a lot of attention public and police .. so to appear structured is a due dilligence that in my opinion needs a team that is planned etc as above and not a finger in the air scenario .....
and anyone who feel sthey are gettin "buzzed" maybe look in the emirror- literally. I would hazard a guess you didnt even know the marker was appraching cos you didnt check your mirror- you know these guys are coming its inevitable.. so be aware.. see them let them know you seen them and move over left just an inch and they know they can pass you ... and they pass you at speed of course- but safe and wide where possible.. andalso.. look forward if you see them coming anticipate ahead.. do you see the pack closing up.. do you need to leave a gap so you dont hang them out to dry.. I actually get an enjoyment from watching the markers cut through the pack and achieve progress that I could only dream of.. but I appreciate the skill and judgement. not condone the action , as it is , in this case a neccessary action on the day.
that is all.
Quiff Wichard
18-05-09, 11:27 PM
oops.. that went on a bit- soz.
nutshell..
Take all the best players from all the premiership teamsand make a team off 11 up..
would be crap!!.. for a season til they gelled and knew each other.. then ace!.. best team ever..
same with bikes and markers.. individually we all good.. but we aint got time to learn each others styles and traits and foibles. these guys already know each other. and are proven.
Alpinestarhero
19-05-09, 03:54 PM
quiff
+1 on all you said. I was talking with rictus earlier about marking etc, it seems soho have alot of experiance. I was really impressed with how they worked last year
Spiderman
19-05-09, 04:05 PM
oops.. that went on a bit- soz.
No worries mate, good, if rambling, post none the less. :)
I really want this thread to be a place where people can share their honest opinions about the markng system.Be it for or against the current system or if they have any ideas on making it better.
Like Pete, I enjoy it when we are asked to be a marker. It's nice to feel you are giving something back for all the fun you get, plus it's a chance for me to have a quick fag! :D
I do think though, that with a rideout the size of the one for the AR, especially with new riders along who may not recognise anyone else or their bikes, that designated markers wearing bibs is the most practical way to go. Whether this is a group of people who ride together regularly or not maybe isn't important, as long as anyone taking on the responsibility fully understands what is expected of them.
Quiff Wichard
19-05-09, 09:18 PM
No worries mate, good, if rambling, post none the less. :)
I really want this thread to be a place where people can share their honest opinions about the markng system.Be it for or against the current system or if they have any ideas on making it better.
midnight 30 alcohol induced ramblings and typos..
Quiff Wichard
19-05-09, 09:19 PM
Like Pete, I enjoy it when we are asked to be a marker. It's nice to feel you are giving something back for all the fun you get, plus it's a chance for me to have a quick fag! :D
I do think though, that with a rideout the size of the one for the AR, especially with new riders along who may not recognise anyone else or their bikes, that designated markers wearing bibs is the most practical way to go. Whether this is a group of people who ride together regularly or not maybe isn't important, as long as anyone taking on the responsibility fully understands what is expected of them.
THAT's what I meant to say xx
I would defo need to stick with some one as i would be hopeless
plowsie
20-05-09, 10:14 AM
I will offer my services to mark the finish line with a banner wearing a fairy's outfit :D
I think the way AR07 was done was fine. Though never designated, was more the drop off system, I actually enjoyed marking on the Peaks Rideout, holding up the traffic letting everybody pull out, posing for some and Saluting LyleJ :D
I have utmost respect that do get designated as a marker as they are willing to help and keep others safe.
Alpinestarhero
22-05-09, 07:43 AM
I will offer my services to mark the finish line with a banner wearing a fairy's outfit :D
I'll hold you to that on the day ;)
just remember that Bear will be bike-mounted....you wont be able to outrun him!
I think the marking system worked well last year but here's a suggestion;
Obviously heavily dependant on the number of junctions requiring marking in between scheduled stops could we not have a marker for each one? We could do a poll and if there are enough willing markers they would all start up front, mark their junction as indicated by the leader and then hang back WITHOUT any pressure or requirement to pass 50 or 60 or so bikes? This would eliminate anyone feeling as though they were buzzed by a marker, take out a lot of needless overtakes and also include people wanting to make a contribution to the ride without relying on experience, skill or speed.
I have no idea how many towns and junctions there are on the route or how many bikes or contibutors etc we have so this may seem completely moronic, for which I apologise.
Spiderman
26-05-09, 12:22 PM
I have no idea how many towns and junctions there are on the route or how many bikes or contibutors etc we have so this may seem completely moronic, for which I apologise.
Its a fairly simple and sensible proposition TM. As you say it is however entirely dependant on the number of juctions that need marking and if there will be enough bikes on the day or not.
If there are too many points to mark we could still use some people to mark once and then hang back or ride how they normally would have.
Spiderman
26-05-09, 12:39 PM
The only obstacle i see in having lots of people who will mark and lots who wont is the possibility of one junction not getting marked as its not clear who will stop and who wont. Does that make sense?
plowsie
26-05-09, 12:42 PM
The only obstacle i see in having lots of people who will mark and lots who wont is the possibility of one junction not getting marked as its not clear who will stop and who wont. Does that make sense?
Drop off system, rider behind leader MUST stop.
Spiderman
26-05-09, 12:46 PM
Yeh but then we assume that everyone behind the leader WANTS to be a marker, not everone who attends the AR does.
plowsie
26-05-09, 12:53 PM
Yeh but then we assume that everyone behind the leader WANTS to be a marker, not everone who attends the AR does.
Oops I thought TYM meant that there would be dedicated marker group and they would mark. My bad, think I misread.
im still undicided of wether to come
if i was wanted/needed as a marker that would probably perswade me to come:salut:
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