View Full Version : Shame on anyone who didn't turn out to vote
lazymanc
08-06-09, 08:04 AM
... to prevent that biggoted nob-head getting an MEP seat in the North West.
It's embarassing to think that an area with such large and successful immigrant populations in Liverpool and Manchester can end up with a nazi for our European representation.
That is all.
Owenski
08-06-09, 08:09 AM
... to prevent that biggoted nob-head getting an MEP seat in the North West.
It's embarassing to think that an area with such large and successful immigrant populations in Liverpool and Manchester can end up with a nazi for our European representation.
That is all.
ROFL!!!
either that is some brilliant sarcasm or you totally missed the point!
Owenski
08-06-09, 08:11 AM
The reason they won is BECAUSE of the huge immigrant population. The immigrants cant/dont vote and the British people they've put out of work can and do vote. Same as here in Yorkshire Humber loads and loads of foreign workers therefore loads of unemployed British people with time and motive to vote.
Its not embarrasing, its a sad fact.
The reason they won is BECAUSE of the huge immigrant population.
I find it amazing that this kind of attitude still exists. As for the BNP, it doesnt take a great deal of research to figure out what kind of organisation it really is. Its a pretty risky step to give parties like this a significant share of the vote, protesting is one thing but we need to be careful what we ask for.....we might just get it.
lazymanc
08-06-09, 08:38 AM
Abstaining from voting because you're dissatisfied with expenses-fiddling politicians or the state of the economy is a poor excuse for letting in Nick Griffin and his band of merry racists.
The BNP have won seats not because people have suddenly decided their policies are worth voting for, but because the Labour vote has collapsed in those regions. People not willing to vote Labour anymore should at least make the effort to pick their least-disliked party from the other major two to stop this kind of thing happening.
SoulKiss
08-06-09, 08:44 AM
Abstaining from voting because you're dissatisfied with expenses-fiddling politicians or the state of the economy is a poor excuse for letting in Nick Griffin and his band of merry racists.
The BNP have won seats not because people have suddenly decided their policies are worth voting for, but because the Labour vote has collapsed in those regions. People not willing to vote Labour anymore should at least make the effort to pick their least-disliked party from the other major two to stop this kind of thing happening.
But the other 2 are just clones of Labour - all had noses in troughs.
Believe me I ALSO think its something to be ashamed of, having 2 Nazi's* representing our country in Europe, but Labour/Tories/LibDems are all useless copies of each other,
The main thing the BNP has done is to say that they will do what most of us want - controlled immigration, making things better for people in this country, whereas the main 3 have never been in sync with public feeling - again, whether that public feeling is right or wrong is another matter.
Still at least in Sweden that have 2 members of the Pirate Party in :)
* A justified use of the word Nazi, and so immune from Godwins law.
timwilky
08-06-09, 08:47 AM
Whilst I do not approve of the BNP, I am pleased that voters still have the right to put their X for them. I doubt anyone voted for them in protest at the main stream, so then the sad fact is that they have a support. We now have one of their county councillors on Lancashire county council, he representing Burnley which has a large immigrant population.
So in this region there is a groundswell of people who feel they have lost out due to immigration and see the likes of Griffin as their salvation.
If the mainstream parties feel uneasy about the BNP, they need to analyse why they are getting votes and do something about the issues that some people feel will only be resolved by them
Owenski
08-06-09, 08:55 AM
I find it amazing that this kind of attitude still exists. As for the BNP, it doesnt take a great deal of research to figure out what kind of organisation it really is. Its a pretty risky step to give parties like this a significant share of the vote, protesting is one thing but we need to be careful what we ask for.....we might just get it.
I fear you also missed my point.
Im not saying. Its because of them bar-hum-bug get back to your own country ya-da ya-da. Im saying its because a town has a large population of immigrants that dont or wont have voted, but there are still just as many britains living there who can and do vote.
I still dont think that made much sense, see if this example helps.
Town "x" provides 1000 adult jobs,
Town "x" houses 1000 adult people,
Town "x" has facilities to educate a 1000 adults children,
Town "x" has shops provide for 1000 adults and families,
Now that town has had 1000 british people, working those 1000 jobs,
Then 200 forigen workers with families come to live in harmoney in the community,
They shop in the same shops and kids go to the same schools,
Everyones going to get along and it all sounds brilliant
but its been overlooked that:
The workers have now taken 200 jobs = 200 british out of work,
Those people want to live in that town = town becomes crowded,
Their kids go to the same schools = Schools become crowded,
They shop in the same shops = Shops can up their prices.
So you've got 200 british people who've lost thier jobs, who cant afford to provide for thier families, who end up forced in to the lesser areas who then talk with conviction to their new naighbours at how terrible the forigen workers are. So out of a 1000 people you've just created 200+ definate votes for the UKIP/BNP style parties.
No convert that onto a bigger scale, and in Industrial countys like Yorkshire and Lanc's this is happening everywhere I've seen it with my own eyes.
So call me narrow minded or old fashioned but I belive its me who's been more realistic and seeing the bigger picture relating to the OP.
So the odd couple of BNP figure heads get to go to Brussells and abuse their expenses forms (MEP's don't have to provide receipts...)
Big deal.
They'll not get to do anything of any use, about all they'll do is make a lot of noise. They're in the vast majority in terms of policy, so with no friends they'll have no backing.
It might make the big 3 parties sit up & think carefully though. Sorry, even I can't take that last sentence seriously. :lol:
timwilky
08-06-09, 09:04 AM
Indeed, last night I was talking with my brother and he had a right rant about immigration. He having been unemployed since February as nobody seems to want builders around here.
He has no argument about the many thousands of hard working immigrants, who contribute to the national economy. He does have problems with those who either leach from the system and use/abuse and those who provide cheap labour under industry agreed rates to non UK companies subcontracting on major infrastructure projects. Browns British jobs for British workers became British jobs for Spanish/Polish workers etc. All quite legal under EU rules, but not in the interest of unemployed British workers.
Owenski
08-06-09, 09:10 AM
Indeed, last night I was talking with my brother and he had a right rant about immigration. He having been unemployed since February as nobody seems to want builders around here.
He has no argument about the many thousands of hard working immigrants, who contribute to the national economy. He does have problems with those who either leach from the system and use/abuse and those who provide cheap labour under industry agreed rates to non UK companies subcontracting on major infrastructure projects. Browns British jobs for British workers became British jobs for Spanish/Polish workers etc. All quite legal under EU rules, but not in the interest of unemployed British workers.
Cheers tim :) case and point!
We are very lucky live in a democracy.
If the most poplar party happens to be one that many people do not agree with then those who disagree should have got out and voted.
I only hope those sitting at home moaning that someone with a different view to them got in will be spurred on to actually exercise their democratic right at the next opportunity before voter apathy leads to a system whereby a party in power actually manages to remove the democratic power completely.
The protest vote is also something that causes this problem. If we have mainstream parties X,Y and Z with people wishing to register a protest by voting for the hamster empowerment party or some other daft, single policy organisation, that just effectively removes "opposition" from "extremest parties" giving them greater chance of success.
Of course there is always the chance that local feeling it as such a level that the policy from an "extremest party" accurately reflects the local feeling in which case that is exactly what should happen in a democracy.
If you didn't vote or voted "for a laugh" you have no right to complain so far as I can see.
I fear you also missed my point....
Actually I'm not so sure I did. If we lived on a little island that worked in isolation to the rest of the world then maybe you have a point, but it isnt that simple, in fact far from it.
There are jobs that are difficult to fill in the UK, even in the construction industry under normal circumstances. At the moment the world economy is in a situation that effects many industries but especially construction and vehicle manufacture.
In the IT industry we have seen it for years when employers move facilities off shore to gain benefits from lower salaries in countries like India and China. Actually the reverse is now happening. Cultural differences are causing certain problems but mainly the employees in those regions are sitting up and thinking "hey, I want a plasma TV and a couple of cars" just like those people in the UK and other European countries. As a result the cost of skilled IT labour in India is almost now the same as Europe.
If you happened to be the last guy in your community of 1000, a skilled builder and the only job left was a cleaner in a hotel would you be happy to take it.....I dont think so. So who will.....
Back to the original subject though it was interesting to note that the other main parties did not make any significant gain at Labours expense. This does show a protest vote (or more likely no vote) allowing minority parties like the BNP to benefit. If you seriously think that the BNP reps have your own interests at heart then just take a bit of time to read around the net and whats out there. www.hopenothate.org.uk (http://www.hopenothate.org.uk)
lazymanc
08-06-09, 09:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFG2P-toC6k
I hate the BNP and all it stands for.
It's simply appalling that they now have some sort of legitimacy to peddle their disgusting agenda.
www.hopenothate.org.uk (http://www.hopenothate.org.uk)
Hardly the best source of information is it?
I don't support the BNP in any way shape or form, but I fail to see how anyone that's sound of mind can't find fault in HopeNotHate's arguments. Without bothering to look. It just slaps you in the face, like a rather large trout holding a "WTF?" sign!
Hardly the best source of information is it?........Without bothering to look........
:rolleyes:
Reading what they have to say it contains some pretty compelling stuff. I'm not a supporter but its simply an organisation that I had heard of and that was relevant to the discussion. I disagree with the protest against the BNP being allowed to stand as that is what a democracy is about but they do point out alot of factual information that is difficult to dispute.
but they do point out alot of factual information that is difficult to dispute.
With exactly zero independent verification of said 'facts.'
Sorry, but if you're going to scream & shout that someone is doing something bad, either expect people to take you as the same as those you accuse, or back up what you're saying.
To stay on topic...
Britain has 72 seats in the EU parliament, out of 736 total seats. Of the 69 seats declared (so not NI yet), 2 of those belong to the BNP.
Woopeedoo. They get 0.271% of the EU parliament.They've got friends in the EPP. Next election they'll be out on their ear, as non of the voters will remember why they voted for them.
One of the EPP's key priorities is about freedom & security (both physical and moral), so the BNP aren't going to sit too well with them. EPP being the largest EU party currently, they won't be that affected by a couple of 'rotten eggs.'
Much-a-do about nothing IMO.
PS. To backup my point about independent verification of facts, the above info was taken from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/flash/html/eu.stm :)
Owenski
08-06-09, 10:42 AM
Actually I'm not so sure I did. If we lived on a little island that worked in isolation to the rest of the world then maybe you have a point, but it isnt that simple, in fact far from it.
If you happened to be the last guy in your community of 1000, a skilled builder and the only job left was a cleaner in a hotel would you be happy to take it.....I dont think so. So who will.....
Flymo i get your argument I really do, but I wasnt refering to the uk as a whole. I wasnt been genuine it was purely and example to try explain my point for why these two countys have resulted in right wing representation.
If I stick with your analagy then, I was in fact refering to a little island on its own, well 2 little islands surrounded by other islands I of course am refering to Yorkshrie and Lancashire, on these 2 'islands' my analagy stands.
But thats all it was, I wasnt arguing for UKIP, I wasnt saying the BNP even have a point with their policies I was simply explaining my reaction to the OP, which is to say I can understand why in these countys those parties won, it honeslty doesnt suprise me.
Sorry, but if you're going to scream & shout that someone is doing something bad, either expect people to take you as the same as those you accuse, or back up what you're saying.
That aimed at me Baph or the website?
Flymo i get your argument I really do, but I wasnt refering to the uk as a whole. I wasnt been genuine it was purely and example to try explain my point for why these two countys have resulted in right wing representation.
If I stick with your analagy then, I was in fact refering to a little island on its own, well 2 little islands surrounded by other islands I of course am refering to Yorkshrie and Lancashire, on these 2 'islands' my analagy stands.
But thats all it was, I wasnt arguing for UKIP, I wasnt saying the BNP even have a point with their policies I was simply explaining my reaction to the OP, which is to say I can understand why in these countys those parties won, it honeslty doesnt suprise me.
Thats fair enough.
That aimed at me Baph or the website?
The website mate. :)
The website mate. :)
Good.
Seriously though, I plucked one site out of thin air and mentioned it. There are many many sources of factual information out there covering the BNP and other similar parties. I'm not going to sit and construct a well researched article with references to back up all the facts, I dont think its necessary.
I'm going to put my faith in our voters to see sense in the future elections. A protest at the more generally acceptable parties can backfire pretty badly as has been proved this time around.
Owenski
08-06-09, 10:57 AM
good'o :)
Talking about it on Radio2 now!
I'll be completely honest, I didn't vote in the EU elections. According to the OP, it's my fault that the North West seat went to the wrong person. :)
Why? (hopefully I've demonstrated above I have enough of an understanding as to what's going on!)
Well, no vote is better IMO, than a wrong vote. For those that think that's wrong, or even "appauling," I'd love to hear a reasoned argument as to who I should of voted for. EDIT: Imagine what would happen if no-one bothered to vote, at all! :lol: (OK, realistically the EU Parliament would just not have UK represenation, but that's a good step along the way to encouraging the UK government to think about what they're doing in Europe!).
If anyone looks at the figures for my region (Wales), the order was Conservative, Labour, Plaid Cymru, UKIP, Lib Dem, Green Party, then BNP. BNP had 5.4% of the votes. Also for my area, there were a total 684520 votes, with an electorate of 2251968. So 30.39% of the electorate bothered to turn out.
I think that last sentence speaks volumes about the EU elections. Almost 70% of people just aren't bothered about voting.
Funnily enough, 31.726% of the electorate bothered to vote in the North West too. Just that those who did, had more "BNP supporters" (or vote protestors - either way) amongst them (8% of all votes).
Also, perhaps it's relevant to point out that the Green Party gained more votes this year compared to last, than the BNP did in the North West. Labour & Lib Dems took a big hammering.
Spiderman
08-06-09, 11:52 AM
....People not willing to vote Labour anymore should at least make the effort to pick their least-disliked party from the other major two to stop this kind of thing happening.
And shame on you for thinking thats what a democracy is. No one is meant to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. We should all have parties that appeal to us as voters and get our votes. If there was a party that said it would look after motorcyclists and their needs first and foremost in every area like parking, security/crime, road layouts, road quality etc then i'm sure almost every biker in the country would go an vote for them, right?
You however suggest i vote for some other bunch of scumbags that i detest in order to ensure another lot of scumbags that i detest dont get it. That makes no sense, hence i didn't vote.
now if they had an option saying "I think the parties preseent dont represent m in any way" and i could tick the box for that to show my feelings then i would happily trot along and vote.
isn't that the point of voting after all...for the people to have their say and not to play tactical games for other parties?
now if they had an option saying "I think the parties preseent dont represent m in any way" and i could tick the box for that to show my feelings then i would happily trot along and vote.
isn't that the point of voting after all...for the people to have their say and not to play tactical games for other parties?
Across the two area's I've highlighted, roughly 70% of the electorate did just that, effectively. :)
EDIT: I've just had a quick scan of the rest of the restults, most of them, around 1/3rd of the electorate bothered to vote.
Irish vote is now in... Sinn Fein win the first seat. Two others to come...
Thingus
08-06-09, 12:18 PM
I reckon a lot of people think the BNP are just against Immigration, which doesn't sound that bad. But if you listened to one of his speeches you'd want to punch him in the face, no matter how much of a skinhead nazi fascist you are.
lazymanc
08-06-09, 12:55 PM
I'll be completely honest, I didn't vote in the EU elections. According to the OP, it's my fault that the North West seat went to the wrong person. :)
Come on now Baph I'm obviously not blaming you for the voting in a constituency other than your own, but be thankful that your neighbours haven't been as easily taken in by BNP hate-mongering.
Why? (hopefully I've demonstrated above I have enough of an understanding as to what's going on!)
Well, no vote is better IMO, than a wrong vote. For those that think that's wrong, or even "appauling," I'd love to hear a reasoned argument as to who I should of voted for. EDIT: Imagine what would happen if no-one bothered to vote, at all! :lol: (OK, realistically the EU Parliament would just not have UK represenation, but that's a good step along the way to encouraging the UK government to think about what they're doing in Europe!).
Opportunities to have a say in how you are governed are few and far between - if you don't take that opportunity then you're basically saying you're either not interested, not capable of making a choice, or in your case, you don't feel there's anyone worth voting for. The problem is, a silent protest vote like that gets put down to voter apathy rather than any "f**k you!" message.
Political parties are never going to marry up 100% with your personal views (otherwise everyone would have their own party), so you have to pick the closest one, it's always a compromise. Choose 2 or 3 issues that are most important to you and research how your local MPs (in the case of local elections) have voted on those issues (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/).
If none of the three main parties are suitable then there's bound to be an independent candidate that is.
The only time I would overrule this is if there was a strong danger of a seat going to an extremist party like the BNP, and in that case I would use my vote tactically for the candidate most likely to defeat them.
I think that last sentence speaks volumes about the EU elections. Almost 70% of people just aren't bothered about voting.
That's a shame, don't you think? Shouldn't people care more about stuff that affects them, however indirect?
Funnily enough, 31.726% of the electorate bothered to vote in the North West too. Just that those who did, had more "BNP supporters" (or vote protestors - either way) amongst them (8% of all votes).
Also, perhaps it's relevant to point out that the Green Party gained more votes this year compared to last, than the BNP did in the North West. Labour & Lib Dems took a big hammering.
That was my point, it wasn't a swing vote for the BNP, it was lack of votes for the other parties that's resulted in them being elected by default.
lazymanc
08-06-09, 01:12 PM
And shame on you for thinking thats what a democracy is. No one is meant to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. We should all have parties that appeal to us as voters and get our votes. If there was a party that said it would look after motorcyclists and their needs first and foremost in every area like parking, security/crime, road layouts, road quality etc then i'm sure almost every biker in the country would go an vote for them, right?
In an ideal world, yes, but there are an awful lot of people with an awful lot of differing opinions, and it's not practical to have unique parties for every particular collection of principals, there would be far too much fragmentation and it would be impossible to get anything done - look how it struggles with just the 3 parties presently.
You however suggest i vote for some other bunch of scumbags that i detest in order to ensure another lot of scumbags that i detest dont get it. That makes no sense, hence i didn't vote.
So every candidate available to you is a scumbag? Not every politician is an expenses fiddling baby eater. Do a bit of research on the candidates and pick someone who cares about (most of) the same issues you do.
now if they had an option saying "I think the parties preseent dont represent m in any way" and i could tick the box for that to show my feelings then i would happily trot along and vote.
But you do have that option! It's called a spoilt vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoilt_vote). You just need to damage the ballot paper in a way that won't be recognised as a vote for a particular candidate. These get recorded as no votes - it doesn't just disappear down the apathy toilet.
isn't that the point of voting after all...for the people to have their say and not to play tactical games for other parties?
I more often than not vote Lib Dem because more often than not my local LD MP voted how I would vote (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/john_leech/manchester%2C_withington#votingrecord). As previously mentioned, the only time I would tactically vote would be to try to prevent an extremist candidate like Nick 'KKK' Griffin getting a seat - unfortunately this time around I'm in a minority.
Spiderman
08-06-09, 01:28 PM
But you do have that option! It's called a spoilt vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoilt_vote). You just need to damage the ballot paper in a way that won't be recognised as a vote for a particular candidate. These get recorded as no votes - it doesn't just disappear down the apathy toilet.
Taken from your link...In voting, a ballot is considered to be spoilt, void, null or informal if it is regarded by the election authorities to be invalid and thus not included in the tally during vote counting.
So what do they do with them? they count howmany spilt papers they had, they dont deduct them from anything or make any issue about them do they? So whats the point of just spoling a paper? it doesnt make any kind of statment really does it?
And yes i do think MOST other MPs are baby eating, self serving, lying, cheating creeps who will do anything or say anything to get into the holy of all hollys, central govt. Onvce in they get to stick their noses deeper in the trough and their ear further away from the public.
In a lot of european countries they have scores of parties that they vote for, its not a confusing system but you say that the 3 party system is? Seriously mate they have conditioned you to believe that 2 party politics is the best thing and only cos its the best for the establishment.
I dont care whos in Govt...cos once they're in they are the Govt and they do what the hell they please.
fizzwheel
08-06-09, 01:43 PM
So what do they do with them? they count howmany spilt papers they had, they dont deduct them from anything or make any issue about them do they? So whats the point of just spoling a paper? it doesnt make any kind of statment really does it?.
Not really no, but perhaps it should be counted. Or a non of the above option included... mind you what would happen if everybody voted non of the above or spoilt their paper...
I think its confusing having the MEP election on the same day as the local council elections and it should have been done on a seperate day.
I had two ballot papers one for local and for MEP. I knew who I wanted to vote for in the locals, but I had no idea who I wanted to vote for in the MEP so I had to make a hurried decision there and then on that one. Also the MEP ballot paper was mahoosive as it was 3 times the size of the local council one...
The one lib dem who got in in West Midlands (Shrewsbury is part of the WM area for this purpose) said that it was a shame that the MEPs hadn't got their message across to show how the Euro Parliament benefitted people in the West Midlands.
Given that we had no election literature through the door, no canvassers, no party policitcals, and the fact that the MEP concerned has never bothered to come to Shrewsbury, how are we supposed to know?
On another point, the delightful Griffin man is reported to have told the BBC that if a Pakistani in his area wanted help, he could go see the Labour MEP as Griffin represents white people only.
I wish there was some way in which the United Kingdom Parliament could outlaw the BNP. And I wish that Griffin could take an enforced holiday on Bikini Atoll. He does not represent me.
**UGH**
timwilky
08-06-09, 02:12 PM
Actually, when you think about it, it is probably a good thing that they have got a couple of back door seats.
It means people will now have to take them seriously and not think of them as a joke. By taking them seriously, I mean to start being concerned as to what their policies count for, before they get the opportunity to expand and claim some sort of legitimacy. At present a BNP vote is classed by many as a protest. One too many protesters and the unthinkable could happen
its amazing to see all the opinions being spoken about because the BNP got 2 seats - Why does this group cause so much grief?
I am not a BNP supporter and did not vote for them - tho I did spoli my paper and they were counted and reported back so you do get shown how many people exercise their vote (unlike the men i will always vote but thats another story)
At the end of the day they got the most votes - we live in a democratic society where people are allowed to stand - they did they got the most votes - 2 seat out of many isn't going to make a difference.
And while most of us do not subscribe to all their ideals - secretly most people will agree with one or two of them ( hides as the flack is thrown)
and while we should not persecute those who live with us peacefully in our multi cultural land why should we as the natives bend over backwards for others.
At the end of the day its two seats in Europe which is nothing - get over it.
tho i do believe that those who didn't vote or couldn't be bothered to even make a mark shouldn't contribute regardless of their thoughts on the outcomes
Owenski
08-06-09, 02:46 PM
Quedos
Very well put.
Well, no vote is better IMO, than a wrong vote. For those that think that's wrong, or even "appauling," I'd love to hear a reasoned argument as to who I should of voted for. .
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to vote. Or you'd be speaking German.
Not voting is just going like "yeah cheers all you previous generations for going through hell, loosing practically everything, loved ones, life, homes, everything, but thanks for nothing, i don't think i'll bother"
Good enough reason? Do you have any morals? If so, you would now feel shame. If not, well, you'd not care....
Luckypants
08-06-09, 03:02 PM
So what do they do with them? they count howmany spilt papers they had, they dont deduct them from anything or make any issue about them do they? So whats the point of just spoling a paper? it doesnt make any kind of statment really does it?
Well I have to say I think a spoilt ballot paper does count. Spoiling the ballot is a political act - it says that you were motivated to get up and go down to the polling station, but there was no candidate you felt deserved your support. This is a far better 'protest vote' than sitting at home watching Neighbours.
The spoilt ballot papers also count in the voter turnout calculations, because they did 'turn out'.
You will note that spoilt papers are always mentioned in the poll results.
Luckypants
08-06-09, 03:04 PM
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to vote. Or you'd be speaking German.
Not voting is just going like "yeah cheers all you previous generations for going through hell, loosing practically everything, loved ones, life, homes, everything, but thanks for nothing, i don't think i'll bother"
Good enough reason? Do you have any morals? If so, you would now feel shame. If not, well, you'd not care....
Very well said.
PS, I nearly voted BNP... **** it, I don't care what anyone thinks of me.
I agreed with an awful lot of their policies. Its just there were some I didn't agree with and had very strong feelings against these few policies, there-for did not vote for them purley for those few reasons. Like Deport all Legal imigrants with a pay off, shut down non UK based military bases, pull out of needed orgenisations etc...
A lot of what they "promoted" was good and I can see why many people voted for them.
Can't see everyones beef unless im missing something? We are allowed to vote, they have gained some places by the UK people. Sure you may not agree, but its our system that has given them the chance.....
I like purple, should I hate those who like pink?
The spoilt ballot papers also count in the voter turnout calculations, because they did 'turn out'.
You will note that spoilt papers are always mentioned in the poll results.
I thought that spoilt ballot papers, or papers that the result couldn't be determined on, eventually got counted towards the final, winning candidate.
Spoiling your ballot paper is frankly puerile. How do those who count or analyse counts know who was simply too stupid to understand basic instructions - it is not exactly hard to put one X in one box - and those who did it deliberately, unless the spoiling is writing something like 'I don't like any of these candidates'?
Anyway if in doubt, vote Tory;)
Owenski
08-06-09, 03:11 PM
For the reasons Daimo has said I think if it were my choice between not voting or spoiling the paper. Then I would at least spoil the paper it may be a waiste of my time and it may not have a point in the long run but its the least you owe to the people who gave everything to let you have that freedom.
At least showing up to spoil a paper shows you care enough to express your disapproval, which in its self is doing what they gave everything for.
Not an attack on that individual who posted about not voting but hopefully it plants a thought in the head of everyone who reads this and didnt vote last week.
Owenski
08-06-09, 03:13 PM
PS, I nearly voted BNP... **** it, I don't care what anyone thinks of me.
I agreed with an awful lot of their policies. Its just there were some I didn't agree with and had very strong feelings against these few policies, there-for did not vote for them purley for those few reasons. Like Deport all Legal imigrants with a pay off, shut down non UK based military bases, pull out of needed orgenisations etc...
A lot of what they "promoted" was good and I can see why many people voted for them.
Can't see everyones beef unless im missing something? We are allowed to vote, they have gained some places by the UK people. Sure you may not agree, but its our system that has given them the chance.....
I like purple, should I hate those who like pink?
urgghh purple? why do you like purple you foolish person! its yellow all the way! ;)
Yellows all the same... But, your always mellow yellloooooooowwwww, ahhhhh.
Purple has many tints.. I could show you some stunning purple paintwork ;)
Re not voting... I watched Normandy programe at the weekend (had 2 Yanks, 1 german), and nearly brought a tear to my eye... 2000 dead before they'd even got off the beach....
Wonder how a modern day council dosser would feel jumping of a boat with 39 other men, into on-coming machine gun fire, with nothing but dead bodies to protect yourself with.......... Wonder if they would be so "hard" then........ Brings things home to reality (if you've got the intelligence to realise and be respectfull anyway). Another reason which reminded my WHY I do it.
I don't agree with all parties really, I had to choose the one I had the least issues against. But the reason alone is enough to get your fat lazy asses out your front door and walk to the voting office when bearing in mind what people went through...
10 min walk to polling station....
Jumping out into the sea, machine guns, morters blaring down, bodies and the smell of blood everywhere......
Hmmmmmm
Owenski
08-06-09, 03:23 PM
Yellows all the same... But, your always mellow yellloooooooowwwww, ahhhhh.
Purple has many tints.. I could show you some stunning purple paintwork ;)
Re not voting... I watched Normandy programe at the weekend (had 2 Yanks, 1 german), and nearly brought a tear to my eye... 2000 dead before they'd even got off the beach....
Wonder how a modern day council dosser would feel jumping of a boat with 39 other men, into on-coming machine gun fire, with nothing but dead bodies to protect yourself with.......... Wonder if they would be so "hard" then........ Brings things home to reality (if you've got the intelligence to realise and be respectfull anyway). Another reason which reminded my WHY I do it.
I don't agree with all parties really, I had to choose the one I had the least issues against. But the reason alone is enough to get your fat lazy asses out your front door and walk to the voting office when bearing in mind what people went through...
10 min walk to polling station....
Jumping out into the sea, machine guns, morters blaring down, bodies and the smell of blood everywhere......
Hmmmmmm
I think we know what your getting at, everyone needs to be forced to watch band of brothers at least once! To know everything your watching is real well re-inacted obviously but real stories that are told. Makes you apprechiate a lot of things!
Abstaining from voting because you're dissatisfied with expenses-fiddling politicians or the state of the economy is a poor excuse for letting in Nick Griffin and his band of merry racists.
I agree.
Wonder how many folks who didn't vote are pontificating on in pubs and clubs up and down the country about how despicable it is and "what has the country come to?"
Didn't vote? Then STFU :thumbsup:
Interesting to see that the tories got more votes than Labour in Wales for the first time since 1918. It's like a limbo dance..... how much lower can they go before fall flat on their ar$es? :-)
Wonder how a modern day council dosser.....
Nice bit of stereotyping there mate. Just want to point out that there as dossers everywhere, regardless of housing type. You supercilious ****.
(if you've got the intelligence to realise and be respectfull anyway)
One "l" in respectful, matey :thumbsup:
Nice bit of stereotyping there mate. Just want to point out that there as dossers everywhere, regardless of housing type. You supercilious ****.
One "l" in respectful, matey :thumbsup:
I in Idiot and chIldIsh reply as well, doesn't stop you though..... :lol:
Stereotyping, really, you know me that well to say im stereotyping.... So what?
Your right, but most are based in council houses... How do I know this? Well I used to live in a council estate, and where I grew up and went to school wasn't exactly "privilaged" (just like me and my concept of spelling), so I know EXACTLY the types...
Whats up, live in a council house and taken offence to a stereotyping comment. Sorry, maybe I should be all political correct, bend over, and take a shafting for my opinion and thoughts. Its the new UK way...
If you have a job, and are not sponging off the social (unless of REAL medical reason), hardworking, respectful, you should take no offence in this comment. Otherwise, please leave via the exit to your left.... :smt088
ThEGr33k
08-06-09, 04:24 PM
Just think, if you could motivate the other 70% to vote for you!!! Wow POWER! :smt029
lazymanc
08-06-09, 04:43 PM
Can we keep the personal insults out of the thread please it's been a reasonable debate so far.
Isolationist policies will not work on planet Earth anymore. You can't avoid the fact that we're a global economy - shutting down the ports and forcing all the dirty foreigners to walk the plank isn't a workable solution. We don't grow enough food nationally to feed even just the ethnically white portion of our population. The same goes for energy (we're net importers of oil, coal and gas), manufacturing, pretty much most things you care to mention.
If we left the EU we'd end up paying vastly increased prices for EU-member goods, and we'd cut our export markets in half because EU countries would have to pay more to trade with us. It just does not make any sense on anything other than a xenophobic level.
Can we keep the personal insults out of the thread please it's been a reasonable debate so far.
Isolationist policies will not work on planet Earth anymore. You can't avoid the fact that we're a global economy - shutting down the ports and forcing all the dirty foreigners to walk the plank isn't a workable solution. We don't grow enough food nationally to feed even just the ethnically white portion of our population. The same goes for energy (we're net importers of oil, coal and gas), manufacturing, pretty much most things you care to mention.
If we left the EU we'd end up paying vastly increased prices for EU-member goods, and we'd cut our export markets in half because EU countries would have to pay more to trade with us. It just does not make any sense on anything other than a xenophobic level.
+1
It has been an interesting debate. There are lots of different points of view presented all of which I respect, even for those that decide to support some of the BNP policies. That is your right and one of the good sides of being a UK citizen.
The thing that seriously bothers me about the BNP is the racism and violence that they represent. How can a party that advocates removing all non-white people from our country be seriously considered to represent us in the 21st century? I know its only my point of view but I dont think this country is generally racist, at least I hope not.
I work in a company that has me work alongside people from many parts of the world on a regular basis, some people I dont like and some people are more difficult to work with than others but thats not down to race. It is occasionally due to cultural differences but never related to colour or race.
Anyhow, if there is any comfort that I can take from the election results its that the BNP gained seats not from merit but purely from poor results from other parties, mainly labour. I agree with the point earlier that this may serve as a decent wake up call for voters in this country.
Whats up, live in a council house and taken offence to a stereotyping comment. Sorry, maybe I should be all political correct, bend over, and take a shafting for my opinion and thoughts. Its the new UK way...
Where I live and my background is as irrelevant as where you live and your background. I just considered your comment to be offensive and said so. I also find the above comment offensive and beyond the U-Rating of this site.
Otherwise, please leave via the exit to your left.... :smt088
Who the feck do you think you are giving orders on here? Get over yourself and treat everyone with equal respect until they give you cause to do otherwise.
Can we keep the personal insults out of the thread please it's been a reasonable debate so far.
You are correct and I apologise. I'll say no more.
However, I also consider that Daimo should do likewise.
Spiderman
08-06-09, 05:54 PM
yeh nice debate peeps.
As i said earlier...why do the ballot papers not have the words NONE OF THESE PEOPLE SPEAK FOR ME for us to be able to show up and show we are taking the process seriously but just have no desire for these people who are up for election to be representative of us?
For example, where BNP won seats...if there had been the above option then the BNP would see that 3% of the locals voted for them and the other 97% showed up to say "you dont speak for me Mr BNP". That way it makes it clear whats really going on with the people of the country, right?
And is it true as was posted before that the spoilt papers get counted towards the winner????? If so thats even more reason not to show up and spoil the paper imo, last thing i'd want is for my non vote to go towards someone i detest.
Damio..please remember that there are plenty of people who live in this country even tho its not their country of birth and therefore no-one in any of the forces gave their lives for them specifically.
They gave their lives honarably and respectfully for their country, not its people. Do you think they would not be disgusted by the behaviour of these politicains if they were around today? And i dont mean as the old fellas that are around today but as the vital young men they once were. Would they not be disgusted by the errosions of the freedoms they also fought for that we see so much of today? Would they not maybe even raise arms against the Govt they see today that is so abhorent to the rest of us who choose not to vote for any of this rabble?
Seriously, no one gave their lives JUST so i could vote. They fought and died to keep this country free from the oppression other countries were facing. I see the same oppression now days being purpetrated by the politicians on the people. Just in a more subtle way than dropping bombs and firing bullets.
GeneticBubble
08-06-09, 05:56 PM
vote me, GeneticBubble, for prime minister or MP or whatever this topic is discussing! :smt102
Come on now Baph I'm obviously not blaming you for the voting in a constituency other than your own
I know mate, it was a sarcastic comment. :)
The problem is, a silent protest vote like that gets put down to voter apathy rather than any "f**k you!" message.
The BBC seemed to of nailed the message rightly when I saw a report earlier (before sleep after my night shift).
That's a shame, don't you think? Shouldn't people care more about stuff that affects them, however indirect?
As I hope I've made clear, I take an active interest. Many people my age (25) don't. It's a shame for those that don't go to the effort to find out - as Ed stated, the MEP's haven't exactly been that public with their policies.
its amazing to see all the opinions being spoken about because the BNP got 2 seats - Why does this group cause so much grief?
...
2 seat out of many isn't going to make a difference.
Thank you, my point exactly.
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to vote. Or you'd be speaking German.
Good enough reason? Do you have any morals? If so, you would now feel shame. If not, well, you'd not care....
PS, I nearly voted BNP...
Oh please, the irony! You go on about WWI/WWII, and you almost voted for the Nazi party?!?!
I consider it far more disrespectful to those soilders involved to vote incorrectly, and until now, I've seen it as more respectful to send the message that there were no party I supported - which was done by non-attendance.
Like Spiderman, I honestly thought that spoilt papers were simply binned. So what was the point in spoling a paper? I've learnt from this thread that they're not. So guess what I'll be doing in future? :D
As for the comments about "how many that didn't vote were in the pub etc?" - well, I wasn't. I'd literally come straight home to look after the kids & sent Jen to bed as she was so ill she was finding it hard to stay concious.
WRT local elections, the candidates come around & knock on my door, they have every year. I get to quiz them on their stance whilst they're drinking my coffee, so they get an active vote. If the MEP's can't be bothered to even send a leaflet, do they deserve any support, especially in light of the comments made earlier about WWI/WWII?
CoolGirl
08-06-09, 06:58 PM
The reason they won is BECAUSE of the huge immigrant population. The immigrants cant/dont vote and the British people they've put out of work can and do vote. Same as here in Yorkshire Humber loads and loads of foreign workers therefore loads of unemployed British people with time and motive to vote.
Its not embarrasing, its a sad fact.
:smt015
I'd watch this before you talk up the plight of those whom you claim have been displaced from their jobs by immigrants (make sure you watch it to the end)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/white/poles.shtml
And has anyone remembered to mention the many from the then british empire who gave their lives in battle during the second world war? For example, the North India Brigade formed the rearguard at dunkirk, an entire spitfire squadron of sikhs took part in the battle of britain, there was black carribean in bomber command... not to mention our polish squadron leader friend Jan featured in the BNP's european campaign:D
MiniMatt
08-06-09, 06:58 PM
/repeatedly bangs head on table
At the risk of violating the "no personal insults" rule I'll tell you exactly why people voted for the BNP. Mainstream politicians won't tell you this publicly because insulting the electorate, even accurately, is a bad career move. The reason people voted for the BNP is that they're feckin stupid. So unbelievably stupid that an X on the form is just about the limit of their abilities. So mind numbingly idiotic that they fall for the "spin" spun by jackboots & suits. They somehow believe the "oh no, they're not nazis, they're fighting for our jobs" lie, they somehow believe they're not just racist but violent and disgusting facists.
Anyone see the interview with Mr Griffin last night? Where he was asked why only white people were allowed to join the BNP if they were not a racist party? And how he defended not allowing non-whites to join the BNP?
How about Andrew Brons, the other "winner"? He who joined the National Socialist Movement (an organisation founded on Hitler's birthday - bet those soldiers who died fighting for our right to vote are spinning now eh?). He who rose to become chairman of the National Front? A man charged and convicted of breach of the peace after shouting "white power" and "death to jews"? But oh no, they're not a racist party, oh no, not any more...
Make no feckin mistake people - the BNP are evil. Evil. Unfortunately idiots with the IQ of a labrador believe them.
northwind
08-06-09, 06:58 PM
But hey, look on the bright side, now that they have some serious elected representatives they'll have to actually try and be politicians. If they fail as badly at this as they have at being local council members, this could work out not too badly. It might even be as funny as it will be when David Cameron is PM.
Incidentally, there's a special Godwin's Law exception which means you're allowed to compare BNP voters to Hitler :smt002
CoolGirl
08-06-09, 07:01 PM
interesting how me, MM and NW all posted at 7.58!:cool:
GeneticBubble
08-06-09, 07:02 PM
interesting how me, MM and NW all posted at 7.58!:cool:
i have reason to believe your all the same 1 person :smt017
/repeatedly bangs head on table
...
Make no feckin mistake people - the BNP are evil. Evil. Unfortunately idiots with the IQ of a labrador believe them.
+1
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to vote.
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to CHOOSE to vote.
Surely this would be more appropriate?
(Yes, I DID vote)
To not disrespect the millions of people that died in the wars to give us the freedom to be ABLE to CHOOSE to vote.
Surely this would be more appropriate?
(Yes, I DID vote)
Sounds more appropriate to me. Sick of people banging on about my wasted vote as I didn't exercise MY RIGHT to vote.
Not one campaigner came to my house, nor did I recieve any leaflets etc so I thought why should I have to do all my own homework to choose someone? Ended up deciding to be a non-voter rather than an uninformed voter.
Bluefish
08-06-09, 08:59 PM
and what have you got against labradors, eh?
i have reason to believe your all the same 1 person :smt017
Dunno about the other one, but I've met Northwind and CoolGirl and I can assure you that they look completely different. One is tall and has long hair ;-)
Personally, although I believe we have the right to choose to vote, it is also a hard won privilege that we should care about enough to use whenever the opportunity arises. Or are we already in Utopia? Whilst voting is a primitive mechanism, if you don't exercise your right to voice your opinion in this way, then don't complain when you don't get what you want.
I agree with many others that there should be a "none of the above" or similar default box. This would be a more effective solution than the protest vote technique. Whilst spoilt papers is close, since they get counted and recognised, a definite box would further strengthen the message to our elected representatives and future prospective candidates.
For now we have a flawed system but, to make the best of it, I would suggest that next time you feel like not voting (probably at the next general election), you turnout and tick every box on the paper (my interpretation of the intelligent spoil). Imagine the greater power of message in near 100% turnout with 70%+ "spoilt" papers.
I am sure that there are many out there who didn't vote who are now expressing outrage at the result. Therefore, on that basis, I agree with the OP. I am not going to tell you how to vote. I respect your right to have your opinion, even if it is different to mine. However, please use your vote because that's the only way to get us closer to a better democratic outcome.
I agree with what has been said by leedsmatt on the first page about british people, foeriegn people, and limited space and jobs and tbh i reckon that is the only reason people have voted for them, because there are loads of job cuts and just like the row that happened not long ago "British jobs for British workers" those people that have no work want work because end of the day, you look after one person and one person only your self, most people dont care if they scew up some one else as long as they are ok.
*No offence intended* (if this is seen offensive)
Oh please, the irony! You go on about WWI/WWII, and you almost voted for the Nazi party?!?!
Carry on reading and u'll see I said I read further into their policeys.... I was un-aware of previous stories regarding them..
I also said I ALMOST as I liked some of their policies, but disagreed with others with HUGE disagrement.
One is tall
:???: Which? :confused:
:???: Which? :confused:
That would mean pointing out that the other was "less tall" and I'm not as dull as I look ;-)
Owenski
09-06-09, 09:44 AM
Had a think and a chat about this last night in the boozer Mick made a decent point that I've heard previously but dont think anyone has mentioned as such, its relating to the veterans and casualties of WWI/WWII.
They'd turn in thier graves by whats happened politically over the last 10years regarding Europe. 65years ago a bloke called adolf, (you may have heard of him) thought that a good idea was to make one big superpower, where our countries had no boarders. Obviously not everyone was going to come willingly so to speed things along he thought it best these questioners were killed.
This seemed a little extreame to good old blighty and so with our american cousins we destoryed most of the main land and scared Adolf so bad he shot him self.
65 years later it seems we've done exactly the same as what little old Adolf was trying to do all them years ago, the only difference is that we did it with out all the killing.
And for the sting in the tail, the bloke who said this is Mick or (Mad Dog) as he's affectionatly known, Mad Dog is a 70+ yr old bloke he didnt fight obviously but he did grow up in post war Britain. He didnt use those words exactly but he did use the following ones (give or take)
"For the record I have and always will vote Conservative they supported our troops and they want Britain to keep some of its power, (hits fist on our table) we used to have an empire ffs now were just as pussy whiped as the french, now F'off!
He got quite worked up, he was a bit drunk so Chris took him back to his stool and we decided to change the subject. He also has a good theory on how to get rid of lawless Britain and all these damn yoof's!
MiniMatt
09-06-09, 09:48 AM
Ok everyone keeps going on about how there should be a "none of the above party" - well how about you get off your **** and do something about that? Everyone bangs on about how people died for our right to vote - but what have you done to defend democracy? Democracy is not a spectator sport, if you want something changed don't just sit on your sofa and complain, do something - I'm not asking you to lay down your life in wars, or even to jump in front of horses, but other people didn't do this just so you didn't have to do anything.
So, you want a "none of the above" option? Great. Form a party. Call it the "None Of the Above Party". Leaflet drop and door knock. Here, I'll even write your manifesto for you:
The None of the Above Party exists solely to provide a protest vote against established mainstream politics. We believe that mainstream politics is tainted with corruption and/or ineffective.
Our aim is not necessarily to get elected, and we would be suprised if we were; we exist to provide a protest vote option, an option to protest without turning to facist far right politics or simply abstaining from the democratic process. In the unlikely event that we are elected our main aims will be to fight for greater openess and transparency in government and politics, requiring open accounting of party and member finances, defence and empowerment of the Freedom of Information Act.
There you go, fight for democracy, you don't even need to go over the trenches. Oh and I've got nothing against labradors, I'm even beginning to think they should be given the vote :D
Ok everyone keeps going on about how there should be a "none of the above party" - well how about you get off your **** and do something about that? Everyone bangs on about how people died for our right to vote - but what have you done to defend democracy? Democracy is not a spectator sport, if you want something changed don't just sit on your sofa and complain, do something - I'm not asking you to lay down your life in wars, or even to jump in front of horses, but other people didn't do this just so you didn't have to do anything.
So, you want a "none of the above" option? Great. Form a party. Call it the "None Of the Above Party". Leaflet drop and door knock. Here, I'll even write your manifesto for you:
The None of the Above Party exists solely to provide a protest vote against established mainstream politics. We believe that mainstream politics is tainted with corruption and/or ineffective.
Our aim is not necessarily to get elected, and we would be suprised if we were; we exist to provide a protest vote option, an option to protest without turning to facist far right politics or simply abstaining from the democratic process. In the unlikely event that we are elected our main aims will be to fight for greater openess and transparency in government and politics, requiring open accounting of party and member finances, defence and empowerment of the Freedom of Information Act.
There you go, fight for democracy, you don't even need to go over the trenches. Oh and I've got nothing against labradors, I'm even beginning to think they should be given the vote :D
MiniMatt.....you have my vote :-)
SoulKiss
09-06-09, 09:55 AM
Ok everyone keeps going on about how there should be a "none of the above party" - well how about you get off your **** and do something about that? Everyone bangs on about how people died for our right to vote - but what have you done to defend democracy? Democracy is not a spectator sport, if you want something changed don't just sit on your sofa and complain, do something - I'm not asking you to lay down your life in wars, or even to jump in front of horses, but other people didn't do this just so you didn't have to do anything.
So, you want a "none of the above" option? Great. Form a party. Call it the "None Of the Above Party". Leaflet drop and door knock. Here, I'll even write your manifesto for you:
The None of the Above Party exists solely to provide a protest vote against established mainstream politics. We believe that mainstream politics is tainted with corruption and/or ineffective.
Our aim is not necessarily to get elected, and we would be suprised if we were; we exist to provide a protest vote option, an option to protest without turning to facist far right politics or simply abstaining from the democratic process. In the unlikely event that we are elected our main aims will be to fight for greater openess and transparency in government and politics, requiring open accounting of party and member finances, defence and empowerment of the Freedom of Information Act.
There you go, fight for democracy, you don't even need to go over the trenches. Oh and I've got nothing against labradors, I'm even beginning to think they should be given the vote :D
Yeah, but what happens when you DO get into power by accident ?
Yeah, but what happens when you DO get into power by accident ?
With 67% of the UK backing him, it wouldn't be an accident. ;)
MiniMatt
09-06-09, 10:00 AM
Yeah, but what happens when you DO get into power by accident ?
Then I like to think that the "None of the Above Party" would be less dangerous than, eg. the BNP. Public stated goals on accidental election stated above.
Though personally when I rule the world.... muhahahahaa!
Owenski
09-06-09, 10:01 AM
Aye, ill put an 'X' in your box Mini Matt ;)
Owenski
09-06-09, 10:01 AM
Can I be your minister for Transport?
Spiderman
09-06-09, 11:51 AM
Nice work on the Manifesto MiniMatt and if only it was as simple as you descriibe it.
getting into politics aint easy, free or even cheap. Thats why all the major parties have to hand out Lordships to get sponsorships from the uber-rich.
Didi you know for example, if you wanted to run for Mayor of London you have to put down a £10K deposit that you dont get back unless you win.
So as much as we could all write a manifesto that would appeal to a lot of peeps none of us really has the money to burn to run without wanting to win.
And as said before, with such a popular manifesto like yours, you WILL win. Then what you gonna do? Say "No thanks, give it to the ones who came in second"?
Its the system from the top to the bottom that is corrupt and the last thing they want is the Great Unwashed getting in their and seeing the truth of it for themselves.
MiniMatt
09-06-09, 12:05 PM
Nice work on the Manifesto MiniMatt and if only it was as simple as you descriibe it.
getting into politics aint easy, free or even cheap. Thats why all the major parties have to hand out Lordships to get sponsorships from the uber-rich.
Didi you know for example, if you wanted to run for Mayor of London you have to put down a £10K deposit that you dont get back unless you win.
So as much as we could all write a manifesto that would appeal to a lot of peeps none of us really has the money to burn to run without wanting to win.
And as said before, with such a popular manifesto like yours, you WILL win. Then what you gonna do? Say "No thanks, give it to the ones who came in second"?
Its the system from the top to the bottom that is corrupt and the last thing they want is the Great Unwashed getting in their and seeing the truth of it for themselves.
Correction on the London Mayoral elections - you get your deposit money back if you collect 5% of the first choice vote. Substantially different to winning, but still 10K is a hell of a lot of money I grant you.
But why pick that? Democracy is everywhere, you need a £500 deposit to stand as an MP, again you get that back if you win 5% of the vote. You need NO DEPOSIT WHATSOEVER to stand in local council and parish council elections.
And if you do win? Then what? Complain some more? Or do something to make things better. Seriously fight for democracy, stop talking about all those people who died for it, because, quite frankly, they're dead and they don't care. I threw that suggestion out as merely that, a suggestion with no thought, there are doubtless many other ways that one can make a difference too, but complaining about it is sure as hell not one of them.
Spiderman
09-06-09, 12:19 PM
Democracy is everywhere, you need a £500 deposit to stand as an MP, again you get that back if you win 5% of the vote. You need NO DEPOSIT WHATSOEVER to stand in local council and parish council elections.
Thanks Matt, i never knew that. Thats what i love about being on the Org, i always find out something new.
And i agree with you about the dead and the not complainging bit for sure. But thats a national pastime here isn't it? Get shafted and say nothing at the tie but then complain as much as you like about it.
i'm suprised the queues for the Complaints Dept aren't much bigger tbh, that combines 2 of the great british pasties right there... queuing and complainging, lol. ;)
Seriously tho, many friends have said to me i should be in politics but i have no idea where i would start, you however seem to know a bit more about it so if you have any pointers feel free to post them up mate :)
SoulKiss
09-06-09, 12:24 PM
that combines 2 of the great british pasties right there... queuing and complainging, lol. ;):)
I think you will find that 1 of the great british pasties is "cornish", but getting one does often involve queuing :)
Spiderman
09-06-09, 12:26 PM
missed an M and it made comedy. I'm class :)
northwind
09-06-09, 06:34 PM
:???: Which? :confused:
Not this one:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/scalemodel-1.jpg
Not this one:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Northwindlowlander/scalemodel-1.jpg
lmfao, I remember that night well. Debs, if you read this, I'm sorry, but it was very funny!!
Northy, I think you'll pay for posting that if she sees it...
BanditPat
09-06-09, 07:04 PM
... to prevent that biggoted nob-head getting an MEP seat in the North West.
It's embarassing to think that an area with such large and successful immigrant populations in Liverpool and Manchester can end up with a nazi for our European representation.
That is all.
If it wasn't Nick that got elected then some other nob head would have got it. I'm glad he got it.
MiniMatt
10-06-09, 02:20 AM
If it wasn't Nick that got elected then some other nob head would have got it. I'm glad he got it.
What do you think of Jews, BanditPat? Should they be put to death? Andrew Brons was arrested, charged and convicted whilst leading a march chanting just this.
Did the holocaust happen, BanditPat? Nick Griffin was also arrested, charged and convicted and in 1998, just 11 years ago, in a court of law in his own defense stated "I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the world is flat ... I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria" - that's a matter of court record.
What is it, BanditPat, about the picture below you like the most?
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jun2009/5/3/nick-griffin-image-1-896348983.jpg
You, BanditPat, have a right to your opinions. Congratulations, your guy got in.
Thank you Minimatt for articulatng so clearly and soundly what I can only splutter and rant about.
Owenski
10-06-09, 08:28 AM
I’m sorry understand I’m not been aggressive in any way purely debating a cause here, your last post mini matt although informative does seem like a petty assault on bandit tbh.
You may completely disagree with the following but call me an optimist or even call me naive but I like to think the best of people, I don’t like people to be accused of racism or been a bigot but I believe these people are just people who haven’t heard the same stories or had the same slant put on things as you and I. Therefore with an arm around the shoulder and with dignity they can be informed subtlety and maybe become educated by the facts you can enrich them with. Your arguments and posts on this topics have definitely shown your passion against the BNP, they have been informative and direct
and with your opinion your not on your own mate I can assure you. Daimo who was even brave enough to say that the BNP have some decent policies but also have some terrible ones was then cut down and stomped on for trying to expand the debate. The poor bugger it only seemed like anyone read the bit which said BNP have good polices, everyone ignored him after saying he almost voted. Everyone clearly taking that statement far too literally, he didn’t vote for them he didn’t even start to put a x then change his mind. He heard a few outline policies and agreed then heard the rest and turned away, if we’re been honest that too was my view of the BNP. They have some good bits but when you look into the lesser published policies you see the big British boot forcing out all none white which we all know is just stupid. And so at reading that part we turned away and moved on to the other candidates.
Its thanks to this light headed way of thinking that I look at your previous post and all I see is a childish (this is the bloke in the pics btw fella not you matt J) fool who thought white power and violence was the best way to project what he thought was an ideal future. Then he got nicked had some sense smacked into him and decided to go about things the right way. Ok so his opinions obviously haven’t changed that much and the BNP is just the national front still but at least they’re doing it the right way now no-ones getting hurt and nothing will ever come of them because every time they get put in front of a microphone and tv camera they look more suitable to Jeremy Kyle than they do Question Time.
I’ve typed that fast and it may not make much sense but hopefully it does but in summary,
BNP = Lost cause
Damio = Missunderstood
Mini Matt = Can argue the feck out of something if he cares enough
Bandit = Wreckless commenter
Leedsmatt = Saviour to all
Peace out. ;)
yorkie_chris
10-06-09, 03:30 PM
/repeatedly bangs head on table
At the risk of violating the "no personal insults" rule I'll tell you exactly why people voted for the BNP. Mainstream politicians won't tell you this publicly because insulting the electorate, even accurately, is a bad career move. The reason people voted for the BNP is that they're feckin stupid. So unbelievably stupid that an X on the form is just about the limit of their abilities. So mind numbingly idiotic that they fall for the "spin" spun by jackboots & suits. They somehow believe the "oh no, they're not nazis, they're fighting for our jobs" lie, they somehow believe they're not just racist but violent and disgusting facists.
Anyone see the interview with Mr Griffin last night? Where he was asked why only white people were allowed to join the BNP if they were not a racist party? And how he defended not allowing non-whites to join the BNP?
How about Andrew Brons, the other "winner"? He who joined the National Socialist Movement (an organisation founded on Hitler's birthday - bet those soldiers who died fighting for our right to vote are spinning now eh?). He who rose to become chairman of the National Front? A man charged and convicted of breach of the peace after shouting "white power" and "death to jews"? But oh no, they're not a racist party, oh no, not any more...
Make no feckin mistake people - the BNP are evil. Evil. Unfortunately idiots with the IQ of a labrador believe them.
Yet it is almost universally ignored that so many politicians were members of extreme-left movement. And this is condoned despite the millions of dead due to that little experiment.
But, when you're young it's easy to get drawn into extremism and do silly things, like occasionally joining far-right groups. And coming from a town with a large, segregated asian population and a healthy number of extreme right groups it is incredibly easy to find yourself agreeing with extremist views. Despite the hypocrisy of this in my own case, being partly descended from a Polish immigrant (I can thank the Russians for that, too!).
I don't think those political commentators from almost entirely White middle class backgrounds can understand this.
Of course the BNP prospectives ranting about the evils of immigration can later be found in the curryhouse, then getting a 'stani taxi home.
Around here, the areas to elect BNP are constituted of council sink estates populated almost entirely by benefit thieving, inbred chavs; jealous of Asian families being able to claim more benefits and having the advantage of no police presence around their area! The BNP seem to find it much easier to put their point across to people with room temperature IQ.
P.s labradors are actually very intelligent.
CoolGirl
10-06-09, 04:06 PM
P.s labradors are actually very intelligent.
Phew. Having followed this very polarised debate on the voting integrity of labradors, I was coming to that conclusion, so good to have it validated.
(just as well seeing as I'm hoping to employ one sometime soon)
yorkie_chris
10-06-09, 05:08 PM
Phew. Having followed this very polarised debate on the voting integrity of labradors, I was coming to that conclusion, so good to have it validated.
(just as well seeing as I'm hoping to employ one sometime soon)
Careful, they are not averse to use of cunning tactics including emotional blackmail when it comes to the acquisition of bonuses.
northwind
10-06-09, 06:01 PM
Yet it is almost universally ignored that so many politicians were members of extreme-left movement. And this is condoned despite the millions of dead due to that little experiment.
I don't think that's a sensible comparison, tbh, naziism is inseperable from racism and hatred, communism isn't. The fact that communist-fascism gave us some first class despots and mass murderers doesn't mean it's automatically on a par IMO- with Stalin (as number one "left" mass murderer) the deaths were part of the process, not part of the aim.
Or to put it differently, communism/left wing failed states tend to turn sick because of the leader, not the ideal. Whereas far right states tend to set out to turn sick- one's a sign of failure, the other's a sign of success.
BanditPat
10-06-09, 06:35 PM
What do you think of Jews, BanditPat? Should they be put to death? Andrew Brons was arrested, charged and convicted whilst leading a march chanting just this.
Did the holocaust happen, BanditPat? Nick Griffin was also arrested, charged and convicted and in 1998, just 11 years ago, in a court of law in his own defense stated "I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the world is flat ... I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria" - that's a matter of court record.
What is it, BanditPat, about the picture below you like the most?
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/jun2009/5/3/nick-griffin-image-1-896348983.jpg
You, BanditPat, have a right to your opinions. Congratulations, your guy got in.
I do believe that it happened, I wouldn't have voted for the BNP personally I would have voted UKIP. But a choice between Nick Clegg, Gordon Brown and David Cameron or Nick Griffin then I would have chose Nick Griffin. Between their parties policies I agree with more of Nick Griffins, Bring our troops back and treat them like humans instead of a name on a sheet. Lower taxes on fuel. A clamp down on Illegal Immigration and making sure asylum seekers seek asylum in a country closer to their home land rather than here travelling half way accross the world to get here. I dont have a problem with some one just because theyre a different colour, I do have a problem with some one coming from a different country that doesent speak a word of English with no intention to learn, I dont have a problem with any one elses religion but I do have a problem with people thinking that we should have to adapt to suit their religion.
I do believe that it happened, I wouldn't have voted for the BNP personally I would have voted UKIP. But a choice between Nick Clegg, Gordon Brown and David Cameron or Nick Griffin then I would have chose Nick Griffin. Between their parties policies I agree with more of Nick Griffins, Bring our troops back and treat them like humans instead of a name on a sheet. Lower taxes on fuel. A clamp down on Illegal Immigration and making sure asylum seekers seek asylum in a country closer to their home land rather than here travelling half way accross the world to get here. I dont have a problem with some one just because theyre a different colour, I do have a problem with some one coming from a different country that doesent speak a word of English with no intention to learn, I dont have a problem with any one elses religion but I do have a problem with people thinking that we should have to adapt to suit their religion.
Well, it is a democracy and you have your right to vote for who you choose. Thank our lucky souls though that the people who might choose to vote BNP are in a small minority.
I agree with some of your aspirations but in my opinion you are more likely to reach them with one of the more mainstream parties, at least to reach them in a more realistic way.
Spiderman
10-06-09, 06:47 PM
I dont have a problem with some one just because theyre a different colour, I do have a problem with some one coming from a different country that doesent speak a word of English with no intention to learn, I dont have a problem with any one elses religion but I do have a problem with people thinking that we should have to adapt to suit their religion.
I think this is one of the main reasons that so many Brits emmigrated last year, what was it 75,000 families or so iirc.
And herei is the rub, many people like you feel strongly about these topics yet the main parties want to say "Oh look how open and inclusive we are, everyone is welcome and everyone can practice whatever religion they like too" yet they fail to see how many people this alienates. The UKIP or BNP come along and say some of those things that they know will appeal and hence hey get votes.
i really wouldnt be suprised to learn that most of those who voted BNP did so for all the "right" reasons and not cos they wanna see all jews/black/asians kiiled or kicked out the country.
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