View Full Version : Gary aka Law aka Venom has come off.
Speedy Claire
02-07-09, 10:54 PM
Only just read this.. glad to hear there`s no serious injury. GWS
A lot of speculation going on around here.
Just what I was thinking.
ABS doesn't play up, and Honda's ABS is the best out there. Let's just put it down to pilot error and leave it at that
Spiderman
02-07-09, 11:42 PM
selfish git probably caused the session to be ended early too!!
stone him!!
Yeh but unlike Raf i was in the next group so we got to go out earlier than we thought. Nice one Gary! lol
Seriously tho, the bike is a sad state for sure. Gary thank goodness is in far better shape than the bike.
And tbh i dont really care if it was pilot error ......or ......brakes not acting the way he expected..... or ...... a rat that ran out its hole and under his wheel. This is just one of the realities of doing a trackday i guess and the most important thing for me is that neither Gary, nor any of the others who went down (whether i knew them or not is largely irrelaevant) managed to get up and walk away and live to tell their tales.
Aye, glad you're ok mate.
lukemillar
03-07-09, 12:40 AM
Man, that sucks the big one. Sorry to hear about the bike, but am glad you're ok. :)
My advice would be to see if any of the club racers on here can ask around the paddock and see if there are any CBR riders out there in the 600 classes with a full set of bodywork kicking around.
EDIT: Been looking around and there is a front end in the US:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-09-HONDA-CBR-600RR-FRONT-FORKS-SUSPENSION-TRIPLE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a 2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trks idZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2301ef2924QQitemZ150 356306212QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
I guess it all depends on the extnet of the damage and whether the headstock/frame have been damaged/weakened, but if it's good, then there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel :)
Thanks for the well widshes
Thanks to Demonz for trailering my bike to his. Cazza for the ice cream, I should crash more often if i get ice cream. Everyone else for checking on if I was ok.
I won't be committing fraud.
There is a lot of speculation. Accordinf to some magazines Honda have said the ABS kicks in too early with sticky tyres and race track speed and you need a race ECU for the ABS.
I was being a t**t and going a bit too fast down the straight and braked harder than usual, the brakes sensed a lock and released. They might have reapplied but all I sensed as I pulled harder and had myfinger under the bar was that I was only slowing slightly. Yeah, okit was mainly pilot error, and my mentality, should have realised I'd run on with ABS. I don't blame the ABS, I would have locked up and tumbled through the gravel anyway without it. This a lot of leaking on to the mudguard from something and I think the resevoir might be empty
Here are some hotos for you.
The bike was 4 months old. and I had done 5000+ miles on it. Just glad I don't owe any money on it or I would be really depressed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030398.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030399.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030400.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030415.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030416.jpg
Where my right boot was taken off.
Shin, swelled up a has a soft raised bit which I can poke and watch squidge around my shin
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030426.jpg
Back of knee, aches like hell.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030442.jpg
Inner right thigh area is stiff and aches. :roll:
Arm. Yes those toy pandas are mine. There's nothing wrong with having them :smt019
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/issues/Brands/P1030448.jpg
I also have a bruise under my fingernail and skin taken off from where my third finger was trapped under the brake lever as I flew through the air.
Don't actually remember flying. Just hitting the tyre wall then the fence and getting up disorrientated.
There are no photos of the actual crash. Just me going round the circuit which is now in the org trackday photo thread,
Anyway I'm gonna have to take a think about biking after this and the whole 'bikes are dangerous' moan that I have been given by my mum tonight after telling her. Just what I really need at the moment. Glad she hasn't seen the state of the bike. I love biking but I won't have a bike to ride for a wile anyway so have a long time to consider. I had a test ride on another bike booked for next weekend but not sure I'll take it or maybe I will.
I'll be off the forum while I have a think, so this will be my last post for a bit. catch you guys later. I haven't actually slept yet.
Night
JediGoat
03-07-09, 01:04 AM
Gary, having come off my bike (more than once), sliding down the road thinking, "No...not my fairings...I heal for free, but they cost money!", I now understand what is important.
You had a very nasty off, in possibly the best place you could have done it, and you are well enough (battered and bruised no doubt) to post about it on here.
Take some time, heal your bruises, and maybe reflect that you can enjoy riding a bike without having to be at the edge. It's not really about speed, it's just about grinning a lot ;)
Heal fast Gary :)
Jo
Gary, having come off my bike (more than once), sliding down the road thinking, "No...not my fairings...I heal for free, but they cost money!", I now understand what is important.
You had a very nasty off, in possibly the best place you could have done it, and you are well enough (battered and bruised no doubt) to post about it on here.
Take some time, heal your bruises, and maybe reflect that you can enjoy riding a bike without having to be at the edge. It's not really about speed, it's just about grinning a lot :wink:
Heal fast Gary :smile:
Jo
Thanks.
I don't really care that I've thrown £9k down the drain, (that might be because I've taken a knock to the head, as I'm skint now). I probably won't be able to fix the bike for ages up due to the cost.
I don't think I have the speed mentality, I blame the CBR if I do. Others can correct me if I'm wrong and I am a dangerous rider pushing myself to the edge. I always stick to signposted limits, ride within my limits and have read up on riding clinic techniques to improve my riding. Obviously I must have made a hug error in judgement in braking distance on track by braking at the start/finish line at a higher speed. And am probably prone to mistakes. At the end of the day I have to weigh up the risk/enjoyment/bikes are a waste of money, dangerous digs I get.
I really should go to bed... I think the org is telling me to as it keeps logging me out every time I post :-?
muffles
03-07-09, 03:08 AM
Thanks.
I don't really care that I've thrown £9k down the drain, (that might be because I've taken a knock to the head, as I'm skint now). I probably won't be able to fix the bike for ages up due to the cost.
I don't think I have the speed mentality, I blame the CBR if I do. Others can correct me if I'm wrong and I am a dangerous rider pushing myself to the edge. I always stick to signposted limits, ride within my limits and have read up on riding clinic techniques to improve my riding. Obviously I must have made a hug error in judgement in braking distance on track by braking at the start/finish line at a higher speed. And am probably prone to mistakes. At the end of the day I have to weigh up the risk/enjoyment/bikes are a waste of money, dangerous digs I get.
I really should go to bed... I think the org is telling me to as it keeps logging me out every time I post :-?
I don't think you are a dangerous rider, I thought it was you were just a bit eager...and what with that funky corner and it dropping down, it is a weird one to take, took me a long while during the day to really build up to that (probably till lunchtime till I managed to get a speed through it where I didn't think I'd got it wrong a.k.a. way too slow).
Sorry to hear you're getting an ear bashing, I know for sure I'd get one too. I would try to look at whether you want to continue biking rather than others, of course they have an involvement but you also don't want to be thinking "if only" and being unhappy after giving them up?
Anyway glad you seem to be doing OK, sounds like the aches have kicked in a bit more eh. Hopefully won't get too much worse when you wake up and read this!
Jamiebridges123
03-07-09, 06:14 AM
Thanks.
I don't really care that I've thrown £9k down the drain, (that might be because I've taken a knock to the head, as I'm skint now). I probably won't be able to fix the bike for ages up due to the cost.
I don't think I have the speed mentality, I blame the CBR if I do. Others can correct me if I'm wrong and I am a dangerous rider pushing myself to the edge. I always stick to signposted limits, ride within my limits and have read up on riding clinic techniques to improve my riding. Obviously I must have made a hug error in judgement in braking distance on track by braking at the start/finish line at a higher speed. And am probably prone to mistakes. At the end of the day I have to weigh up the risk/enjoyment/bikes are a waste of money, dangerous digs I get.
I really should go to bed... I think the org is telling me to as it keeps logging me out every time I post :-?
Even monkies fall from trees, everyone makes mistakes mate it's how we learn. If you enjoy biking you'll approach it again in a few months when you have a bike on the road with enthusiasm and the air of caution till you build your confidence back up.
Thanks.
I don't really care that I've thrown £9k down the drain, (that might be because I've taken a knock to the head, as I'm skint now). I probably won't be able to fix the bike for ages up due to the cost.
I don't think I have the speed mentality, I blame the CBR if I do. Others can correct me if I'm wrong and I am a dangerous rider pushing myself to the edge. I always stick to signposted limits, ride within my limits and have read up on riding clinic techniques to improve my riding. Obviously I must have made a hug error in judgement in braking distance on track by braking at the start/finish line at a higher speed. And am probably prone to mistakes. At the end of the day I have to weigh up the risk/enjoyment/bikes are a waste of money, dangerous digs I get.
I really should go to bed... I think the org is telling me to as it keeps logging me out every time I post :-?
Dude, I've done more track laps than I can remember and I still make mistakes. Ok, so you made one mistake. As Shop mentioned you did it in the proper place.
Its a shock to the system and should act as a wake up call but dont let it take away something you love doing. The crashes that normally freak people out are the ones that they cant explain, this one seems to be down to too much speed approaching the corner based on what you've said.
Put it down to experience and ride as soon as you get the chance. That crash experience is worth more to you than any text book will give you.
Red Herring
03-07-09, 07:01 AM
I think Gary is beating himself up enough over what happened to make any comments from me unnecessary but the bottom line is the crash should never have happened.
The track day organisers spend the first half hour of the day telling everybody that they have all day to learn the track, not to go out and try and break the track record at your first attempt, and to above all else take it easy to start with. They then force you to do the first three laps at half speed behind marshalls before bringing you back into the pits and releasing you again in pairs. Gary had his off at the start of his second solo lap, there was nothing wrong with the track, and there was nothing wrong with the bike, he has just come flying down the straight, missed the braking point for Paddock (it's a blind entry, you have to know where to brake before you can see the corner) and then panicked. Quite rightly he has then gone for the brakes as hard as he could, and due credit to Honda the ABS has kept him on the bike, travelling upright and in a straight line, despite him pulling the lever right back to the bars, but even sticky tyres and the best brakes in the world weren't going to stop him once the track turned right and he didn't, he's then ridden straight through the (big) gravel trap and gone headfirst into the tyre wall, still on the bike. The rest is history. I really do feel for him, it was an elementary mistake and number one in the school of hard knocks, but he'll recover and be older and wiser for it. As the saying goes, Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement. Get well soon Gary, best of luck sorting the bike.
As the saying goes, Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.
big +1 to this, never a truer word said.
Alpinestarhero
03-07-09, 07:35 AM
I, for one, am just glad that Law walked away from the accident. When I returned to the pit garage to find him, he was shaking quite alot (understandably) and I was quite worried he'd done some serious damage to himself (it was evident the bike was fubar'd), and that once the adrenaline wore down a bit the true extent of any injuries would show.
Thankfully, he calmed down and was able to come for a walk with me, samnooshka and Mrs Anderson after lunch to Druids. So the bike is pooped, so the lid is wrecked...but at the end of the day, however it happened, he walked away. This could have been a very differant story if the accident was out on the roads, and not in the relativly safe confineds of Brands Hatch with its gravel traps.
We can buy new bikes. We can mend broekn bikes. We can't replace a fallen friend so easily.
Chin up Law, we'll get that bike sorted out...
...SV front end still take your fancy? :smt046
+1 for Red Herring, there were a lot of wise words in the briefing and also in the .Org garage before hand from much more experienced riders.
I have done a 20 min taster at brands before and in my eagerness to go as fast as possible on the straight you leave the braking too late then the gravel comes up very quickly and you have to take a leap of faith to get round Paddock Hill, you also have to believe you are going to get round it. The moment you think you are off...
To walk away from a high speed off like that with bruises is a miracle, the bike was not so lucky but as has already been said is just plastic and metal.
I have to say, I was in the same group as Venom and it was really un-nerving to see the big cloud of dust come up, the rider staggering around, then to notice it was one of us on the same bike as me.
GWS mate.
Streetfighter all the way - ala red herring's SV
plowsie
03-07-09, 07:58 AM
Gazza me old mucker, glad to see your posting :D
Think long and hard what you wanna do, though what Red herring said about experience is quite honestly the best worded sentence I've ever heard.
Hopefully see you out and about again soon :)
Get well soon, and keep biking, I can see the CBR being a good project! :D
Venow sorry to hear this.
Now, I had a very similar incident on my 600rr. I had decided to give it some more than usual down the main straight. Becuase the 600rr requires quite alot of twist on the throttle to get to full throttle, when I released the throttle to start braking I actually only released the throttle about half. The front wheel locked, I released the brakes and the bike accelerated again I ended up trying to make it around the corner way to hot and eventually stood the bike up through the gravel. I could have easily just gone straight on into the tyres like you seem to have done though.
Could that possibly be an explanation?
For financial and licence worries I'm considering getting rid of the 600rr also and buying something that doesnt urge you to just go faster.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-09-HONDA-CBR-600RR-FRONT-FORKS-SUSPENSION-TRIPLE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a 2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trks idZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2301ef2924QQitemZ150 356306212QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
Cheaper than I thought.
Streetfight it Gary - at least everytime you get on it after you will have a good think about what happens when you go to fast :p.... and you get to look hard as nails :smt025
dizzyblonde
03-07-09, 08:47 AM
Gary, I've never done a track day, so I can't really comment on events of this nature. However i do like Jamies phrase 'even monkies fall out of trees' they do indeed, so do cats but they mostly fall right way up. You've had one of your nine lives, its thoroughly understandable for you to step back and take stock of yourself. Can understand your mum, my mum would do it, I would do it, all mums do it.
No amount of people here can make you feel better or worse about whats done. I think your knock to the head has made you a bit horizontal on your approach to binning a 9k bike, but you are here with very minor injuries.
Chin up fella, and when the bruises heal, and the dust has settled, come back. Buy a moped or something, but don't leave us ;-). xxxxxx
That's evil, how could you say such a thing...
"Buy a moped".
dizzyblonde
03-07-09, 08:53 AM
I know I'm sorry8-[
#hangs head in shame#:p
the_lone_wolf
03-07-09, 09:36 AM
I'll be off the forum while I have a think, so this will be my last post for a bit. catch you guys later. I haven't actually slept yet.
Missed your post dude, hope you heal quick and good to hear the events recalled 1st hand:cool:
metalmonkey
03-07-09, 09:39 AM
Gary I can't add anything to wise words of the other guys.
But more just to get better soon, it may take longer to heal mentally...
I get that from my folks to be careful out there, both on the bike and at work, its understanable that they want their kid to be safe. However don't give up its your life do what you want to do.
I had very scary accident when I was sailing once, I thought I was gonna drown. I carried on sailing for many years after that my point is don't give up.
Take it easy, heal fast, see you around.
gruntygiggles
03-07-09, 09:56 AM
So glad to see that you were on here posting last night Gary and not in hospital somewhere. You had the off in the safest place possible and the state of your bike is irrelevant, so is how much you spent on it as it's a material object and the main thing is that you are still here with us.
You'll be a different rider when you get back on a bike, which I sincerely hope you do. Not because you weren't a safe rider beforehand, but because you've just learned a massive lesson in how we can get so comfortable with something and make an easy misjudgement. Stretchies off was a decent speed last year on the road and he too was very lucky that he only got a sprained ankle and bruises. He didn't get another bike for 2 months and it has taken him a very long time to get his confidence back. He's still working on it in fact. He had a few nervy rides, but now takes me out on the bike with him again and is enjoying it just as much as he was before......albeit with a new attitude that makes him slow more setting up for a corner and read the road eveb better than he did before.
Your mum and family are right in not wanting you to hurt yourself again, but you won't be pushing yourself on the roads when you get back on and if you love bikes, that is what you should do. Take your time.....stay with us even if you don't stay with bikes but try and remember why you started biking in the first place.
These things happen. The best thing about being human though is that we have the brains and ability not to let one knock back stop us doing what we love.
Rest up, take care of yourself and do what's right for you, not anybody else!
Cheryl x
So glad to see that you were on here posting last night Gary and not in hospital somewhere. You had the off in the safest place possible and the state of your bike is irrelevant, so is how much you spent on it as it's a material object and the main thing is that you are still here with us.
You'll be a different rider when you get back on a bike, which I sincerely hope you do. Not because you weren't a safe rider beforehand, but because you've just learned a massive lesson in how we can get so comfortable with something and make an easy misjudgement. Stretchies off was a decent speed last year on the road and he too was very lucky that he only got a sprained ankle and bruises. He didn't get another bike for 2 months and it has taken him a very long time to get his confidence back. He's still working on it in fact. He had a few nervy rides, but now takes me out on the bike with him again and is enjoying it just as much as he was before......albeit with a new attitude that makes him slow more setting up for a corner and read the road eveb better than he did before.
Your mum and family are right in not wanting you to hurt yourself again, but you won't be pushing yourself on the roads when you get back on and if you love bikes, that is what you should do. Take your time.....stay with us even if you don't stay with bikes but try and remember why you started biking in the first place.
These things happen. The best thing about being human though is that we have the brains and ability not to let one knock back stop us doing what we love.
Rest up, take care of yourself and do what's right for you, not anybody else!
Cheryl x
gotta agree with Cheryl xx
Gary you donut. Heal fast mate and if you need any help putting your bike back togehter then just say, i have a range of hammers that are fit for purpose.
As for your feelings, im with you on all of them. I was much the same when i broke my shoulder back in 2003, so much so that if you can remember, i put the bike up for sale, giving up biking etc etc. However, in the cold light of day i realised that maybe it was i that needed to change and how i ride. I still feel that i am a different rider than i was back then, maybe for the worse, but better for me. I still have the ocasional 'ah f**k it' moments and ride like a muppet but they are far and few between. Unless its scared you silly beyond belief then you will get back on, you will enjoy and as people say you will ride differently, although having riden with you, you are far more sensible than me even as i ride now! So dont be so hard on yourself, and i completly understand the parentl pressure etc, but give it time mate and all will be well, believe in yourself and just put it down to what it was, an accident. Just rmember it could have been worse, Bear might have been behind you...he takes any advantage he can get and you stuck in a tyre wall would just be too good to miss! :lol:
Zombie Jesus
03-07-09, 12:07 PM
You had a very nasty off, in possibly the best place you could have done it
In fairness, it was one of the worst. On another circuit he could have kept the bike upright and rejoined the track with the same mistake at say copse @ silverstone or craner's @ donnington. The line at which he left the track left quite a short distance between the tarmac edge and the tyrewall.
In fairness, it was one of the worst. On another circuit he could have kept the bike upright and rejoined the track with the same mistake at say copse @ silverstone or craner's @ donnington. The line at which he left the track left quite a short distance between the tarmac edge and the tyrewall.
on a track, nothing coming the other way, marshalls and ambulance men in attendance. i'd say its a damned good place to come off myself!!!
Spiderman
03-07-09, 12:12 PM
I think she meant that its was safe as opposed to being on any public road and having other traffic to smash into or be run over by.
I agree that Paddoc Hill is not the best place on any track by far to come off. When i worked at Brands i saw a guy in a Caterham Super 7s race get killed after taking that bend just slightly wrong. And that was in a car with a roll cage and multi point seatbelt...that never even rolled or looked liike it was a major incident.
plowsie
03-07-09, 12:18 PM
I think she meant that its was safe as opposed to being on any public road and having other traffic to smash into or be run over by.
I agree that Paddoc Hill is not the best place on any track by far to come off. When i worked at Brands i saw a guy in a Caterham Super 7s race get killed after taking that bend just slightly wrong. And that was in a car with a roll cage and multi point seatbelt...that never even rolled or looked liike it was a major incident.
A young lad did the same back in Oct 2008 too, on a Stocksport Race, won the championship already, only 22. I'd say in respect of road track yes, but in respect of corner at track, one of the worst, I've always wondered why the run off is quite short.
Spiderman
03-07-09, 12:40 PM
Old track layout that was fine for the vehicles that first used it and as cars/bikes have got faster and faster the newer circiuits have allowed for this and built massive run offs. But Brands is just too small a place to be able to change it without ruining the chartacter of the track itself.
It just adds to the rush when you have the split second where you think I'm not going to make it...
The traps are very deep though.
Old track layout that was fine for the vehicles that first used it and as cars/bikes have got faster and faster the newer circiuits have allowed for this and built massive run offs. But Brands is just too small a place to be able to change it without ruining the chartacter of the track itself.
we better not do a TT .org TD then :rolleyes:
SoulKiss
03-07-09, 01:10 PM
It just adds to the rush when you have the split second where you think I'm not going to make it...
The traps are very deep though.
Or the one where you have braked and dropped a gear, and are thinking "I need to brake some more, no wait I dont", lean over and swoop down the hill :)
Spiderman
03-07-09, 01:19 PM
Or the one where you think...why the hell did i brake so early? Faster next time round!!! :lol:
muffles
03-07-09, 01:33 PM
Or the one where you think...why the hell did i brake so early? Faster next time round!!! :lol:
The one where I first got my knee down was comical (it was round Druids I think). My thoughts went something like:
*on the approach*
"Must hang off a bit, try to get knee down" (this was a common theme btw :lol:)
*hears a small scrape*
"Wtf?! Was that my boot??"
:smt043 I don't know why I didn't think it was my knee!! :scratch:
Had the worst moments at Druids, too late braking and still travelling in a straight line thinking "oh sh i t I'm off here!" - then deciding to try and get it round or slide on its side rather than the other option of going into the unknown of the gravel trap!
muffles
03-07-09, 01:41 PM
Had the worst moments at Druids, too late braking and still travelling in a straight line thinking "oh sh i t I'm off here!" - then deciding to try and get it round or slide on its side rather than the other option of going into the unknown of the gravel trap!
You did alright mate, from when I was following you! Not that I am the voice of experience by any means though...
SoulKiss
03-07-09, 01:42 PM
Might be an idea for a mod to post 136 onwards into the Brands Trackday Thread instead of being on this one.
Oh and delete this :)Bobs
Spiderman
03-07-09, 01:45 PM
Dont worry about it SK, Gary can ask the appropriate mod if he fels this in any way detracts from his off but i have a feeling he will be happy to know we are discussing the nice pijnts of the day and not dwelling on how bad it could have been for him ;)
SoulKiss
03-07-09, 01:49 PM
Dont worry about it SK, Gary can ask the appropriate mod if he fels this in any way detracts from his off but i have a feeling he will be happy to know we are discussing the nice pijnts of the day and not dwelling on how bad it could have been for him ;)
Wasn't really thinking of Gary, just thought it fitted the flow better the other way :)
As I said to him, I'm just very happy that he is able to get upset and annoyed over the bike.
Quite late on this one again. :(
Anyway, get well soon, everyone that came off at Brands. Hope you don't decide to give up biking as a consequence.
aww Gary only just got back to read this.
I hope that you have had a restful day and pampered your bruises and healing up now.
Take it easy for the next few days!!
northwind
03-07-09, 06:34 PM
Ah mate, that's no good at all- glad you're relatively intact though, I saw the pics of the bike before anything else and I'm just shocked and delighted you're not in the same state. And this:
I don't blame the ABS, I would have locked up and tumbled through the gravel anyway without it.
Is very cool- screwing up is natural, but so is blaming the bike or the tarmac or "diesel" or anything else but yourself, you can't learn from mistakes if you don't admit them so I think you deserve a lot of respect for this.
Tim in Belgium
03-07-09, 08:12 PM
GWS, hope you're not too stiff.
davepreston
03-07-09, 10:04 PM
WOULD EVERYONE STOP FALLING OFF
please
gws gary and i hope sids bike aint to bad
yes street fighter i thinks :)
I'm only back for this update post after I tried getting some confirmation on my impact speed.
Last night I was quite tired after all the events and couldn't even remember where I put my mobile phone down repeatedly throughout the night so I was probably rambling. So this is my non tired version of events.
I did listen to the briefing, I did the sighting laps and used them to pick some lines. I also did two proper laps where I had increased my speed and picked braking points, and had overtaken two new riders and was riding within my limits.
I'm not questioning how I got into the situation and where the blame lies. The mistake I made was increased my speed a bit more than the the previous lap, missed my braking point by a bit and I grabbed a lot of brake thinking it slow me down more. I taped up the speedo so wasn't tempted to look at it and miss the braking point by loads. I actually braked before I saw the corner and only just missed the braking point. Yes, the Honda ABS is so good it doesn't actually pulse, I am pretty certain I activated it though and it kept me upright and stopped a locked wheel. The only thing I'm wondering is why I hit the wall at the same speed as when I grabbed the brake before the corner, thus causing so much damage.
What I am sure of is that I ended up braking so hard and had the lever right against my fingers I should have slowed down or felt the forks compress but I felt like I never did any braking before the corner. I only started panicking once I reached the turning in point and was going a lot faster than the previous lap and too fast for my comfort level and baulked at turning in.
Today I spoke to Sammy cos she saw the crash, (unlike everyone else who is speculating on the bike - which felt fine before the crash, where I braked, or at which point I started panicking) and was trying to confirm or about whether it looked like I slowed at all or whether it was my imagination that I didn't slow and it seems I didn't scrub off much if any speed. It might be as G suggested that unwittingly I still had part throttle when I activated the ABS.
It still doesn't change the fact that I braked a bit late and too hard and would have ended up in the gravel, but I couldn't understand yesterday why I had the lever back to bar and shot through the corner and through the gravel trap and traveled so far that I ended up hitting the wall very very hard.
P.S. I did not think ABS is a miracle aid so you can brake as hard as you like and as late as like aid before the crash.
It's just a safety feature to stop you falling off in panic on the road.
And if the above post (149) sounds like I'm in denial about pushing myself and being one of the ones to set a lap record on the first lap because I might be backtracking on previous posts and conflicting with the views of more experienced riders, it's not meant to, but in my mind that's what happened. I admit I was a little enthusiastic at the start/finish straight and would have ran off the track and stopped in the gravel if I had slowed as expected at the moment I braked.
Samnooshka
04-07-09, 12:50 AM
Was good to see you today, and i hope telling you what happened now that you have had sleep and calmed down has helped in you understanding what happened, even if it was from my point of view.
I hope Mina and Lucien gave you some good hugs, they are great at comforting, especially Mina who doesn't like to see people upset and seems to know they need a hug and a big lick to cheer them up :) she makes up for me as i am useless at the comforting thing! ;) Lucien well... he's a good blanket ;)
Thank you for your help grooming Ranger, Ria and Rebel today, I saw Ria had a bit of a soft spot for you ;) I hope helping me with the dogs was able to get your mind off things for a few hours.
You know where i am if you need to chat, or even if you dont want to sit at home listening to your family lecture you and need to escape.
Was good to see you today, and i hope telling you what happened now that you have had sleep and calmed down has helped in you understanding what happened, even if it was from my point of view.
I hope Mina and Lucien gave you some good hugs, they are great at comforting, especially Mina who doesn't like to see people upset and seems to know they need a hug and a big lick to cheer them up :) she makes up for me as i am useless at the comforting thing! ;) Lucien well... he's a good blanket ;)
Thank you for your help grooming Ranger, Ria and Rebel today, I saw Ria had a bit of a soft spot for you ;) I hope helping me with the dogs was able to get your mind off things for a few hours.
You know where i am if you need to chat, or even if you dont want to sit at home listening to your family lecture you and need to escape.
Thanks for today.
Talking to you two helped a lot and was comforting. Still too early to decide about biking and what to do with the RR if it's fixable. Mina was great with her great big licks. Lucien hasn't got it quite right yet as he was licking my ear. ;)
Your friends' dogs were nice as well. It's natural for Ria to have a soft spot for me, she's female. lol.
I probably won't get another lecture until the time when/if I get another bike.
lukemillar
04-07-09, 01:30 AM
GWS, hope you're not too stiff.
Erm....
gruntygiggles
04-07-09, 10:26 AM
Gary, the day is passed now. You know what happened to set up the off, so there comes the experience that will prevent it happening again the same way. As for theories about what happened, that's all they can ever be.....theories. Only you know what you felt on the bike and you have no reason to fabricate that as you've admitted your missgivings on your approach to that corner. It does sound a bit odd to me that the brake lever would come right back to the bar as that's just not supposed to happen, but I guess the only way you'll know is if you have a decent mechanic friend or a garage you use regularly to take a look at the bike as it is and see if they can trace any problems. With ABS or with normal hard braking, you would leave rubber on the track. Have you found out if there were any tyre marks left after you're off? Abs should leave broken lines, standard on long line. Might be worth checking that to help you paint a better picture of things.
Anyway.......my main point is that other people can analyse this as much as they want, but those on other bikes would only have seen moments of the off and people on the ground would not have felt what you felt, so it is only you and any professionals that assess the bike now that can have a true idea.....anything else is just speculation and will not help you in understanding what happened other than to give ideas for you to look at.
I'm really glad you are feeling ok and had some good dog therapy...always works wonders!
Take care and take your time
Cheryl x
whats done is done gary. no point dwelling on it. you realise the mistake you made which is better than crashing not realising what went wrong. Try and get back on a bike asap as you will just build it up in your head. Hope your not too sore today. Of course your mum is giving you grief, its what mums do.
With ABS or with normal hard braking, you would leave rubber on the track. Have you found out if there were any tyre marks left after you're off? Abs should leave broken lines, standard on long line. Might be worth checking that to help you paint a better picture of things.
Dunno, maybe the others can tell me. I looked at where I entered the gravel and the long furrow I ploughed through the gravel. Can't remember a line leading to it. Brands Hatch is covered in rubber lines though.
Try and get back on a bike asap as you will just build it up in your head. Hope your not too sore today.
I still feel stiff in the mornings. I've recovered quite well and am hardly limping. Must be my fitness. lol
I might go for a ride and be back on two wheels tomorrow.
But the bike won't have an engine.
yorkie_chris
04-07-09, 05:42 PM
Should be a relatively straightforward project so long as the frame is not bent too far. A very unlucky off and strange why the brakes didn't behave.
I still feel stiff in the mornings.
TMI Gary but Im glad you are feeling that good ;)
It still doesn't change the fact that I braked a bit late and too hard and would have ended up in the gravel, but I couldn't understand yesterday why I had the lever back to bar and shot through the corner and through the gravel trap and traveled so far that I ended up hitting the wall very very hard.
If your lever was coming back to the bar under heavy braking then your brakes were in need of attention before you even went out there. The lever should never ever be able to come back that far under any circumstances. You're not a big beefy fella, that much is certain; I'd very much doubt you'd have the physical strength in your right hand to pull any properly bled brake system's lever that far back, even under panic situations.
You say this happened early on in the session, so your brakes wouldn't have been so hot that one hard braking manouver would boil the fluid. It sounds to me like you simply paniced because you thought you were going to fast into th corner and froze hard on the brakes, then just stayed hard on the brakes until you got thrown off. Your mistake was in not getting off the brakes and pitching the bike into the corner on a neutral throttle.
You have to remember that your bike and your tyres are about 5 times better than you think they are, and that your are at least twice as good as you think you are - that's why blokes in the fast group on bikes just like yours with tyres just like yours can go round corners faster. They don't have any other advantage aside from having bigger bo11ocks and a lack of fear. It's a confidence thing, you simply have to believe you can do it, cos the bike sure as hell is more than capable.
Have you found out if there were any tyre marks left after you're off?
There were some skid marks, although not the rubber kind!
muffles
05-07-09, 10:40 AM
There were some skid marks, although not the rubber kind!
Sniffing around there were you :mrgreen:
If your lever was coming back to the bar under heavy braking then your brakes were in need of attention before you even went out there. The lever should never ever be able to come back that far under any circumstances. You're not a big beefy fella, that much is certain; I'd very much doubt you'd have the physical strength in your right hand to pull any properly bled brake system's lever that far back, even under panic situations.
It didn't go back to the bar straight away and technically didn't go to the bar as I use 2 finger braking and my other fingers would be in the way. I squeezed hard and was applying more and more force and felt some bite for a split second, then it felt something had changed, the lever felt a bit disconnected and traveled a lot further back to squash my finger (and stayed there until I was thrown off). Bike had a 4000 mile service on the 22nd of May and had done 1000 miles of commuting after that so I hadn't tested any hard braking before the track.
I agree that the bike is infinitely better than me and I should have really tried tipped it in but it was the start of the 3rd lap (not counting the sighting laps) of the first session and I was still building up my confidence going round the paddock at speed.
Alpinestarhero
06-07-09, 07:26 AM
We could talk forever about what caused the accident, what could have been done to avoid the accident, how the damage could have been avoided or at elast minimised etc etc etc
whats done is done, at least venom hobbled away
We could talk forever about what caused the accident, what could have been done to avoid the accident, how the damage could have been avoided or at elast minimised etc etc etc
whats done is done, at least venom hobbled away
Very true, and as much as it may worry Venom and others what happened may never become clear.
Took off all the plastics, there was gravel everywhere. There doesn't seem to be any creasing or cracks around the headstock, but I need to send it to a professional to be checked to be sure. The wheel was right up against the downpipes and deforming the tyre by a lot.
Anyone want a project?
plowsie
10-07-09, 10:11 AM
Took off all the plastics, there was gravel everywhere. There doesn't seem to be any creasing or cracks around the headstock, but I need to send it to a professional to be checked to be sure. The wheel was right up against the downpipes and deforming the tyre by a lot.
Anyone want a project?
How much?
Anyone want a project?
I have a KR1-s to build next, lol, but I can offer a place to work if you need it.
plowsie
10-07-09, 10:28 AM
I have a KR1-s to build next, lol, but I can offer a place to work if you need it.
An org rebuild :drink:
I have a KR1-s to build next, lol, but I can offer a place to work if you need it.
I'm a bit mechanically inept and as a project of that magnitude is over my head to fix up, but I suppose if I had some supervision...
Anyone want a project?
I'll have it off you if you don't want it. I can collect if that's easiest for you?
Cheers,
Matt
muffles
10-07-09, 10:41 AM
I'm a bit mechanically inept and as a project of that magnitude is over my head to fix up, but I suppose if I had some supervision...
Gary just let me know when you want to do anything with it! I'll come sort it out for you. I'm desperate lol.
I'll have it off you if you don't want it. I can collect if that's easiest for you?
Cheers,
Matt
And don't listen to Matt :lol: (no offence Matt ;))
I gave it a look over last night and the headstock has a slight wobble which I think are probably bearings getting a pounding. Other than this I couldnt see any frame damage.
I dont think it has any major issues and will make an easy project to fix up - very expensive though if it goes back to standard or close too!
Streetfightered it wont be too bad a cost involved - new forks, headlight, indicators, a few random plastics to make it look pretty. Or an easy trackbike project which will still be road legal.
The options are endless as are the costs options...
plowsie
10-07-09, 10:47 AM
Yoink...
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16382&highlight=cbr600rr&page=2
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j73/piercedsatanist/05-26-09-01.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j73/piercedsatanist/05-26-09-05.jpg
:twisted:
Sid Squid
10-07-09, 11:45 AM
I gave it a look over last night and the headstock has a slight wobble which I think are probably bearings getting a pounding. Other than this I couldnt see any frame damage.
I dont think it has any major issues and will make an easy project to fix up - very expensive though if it goes back to standard or close too!
Having seen the bike and also being aware of what happened to it, I would be extremely surprised if the frame is undamaged. Strong modern forks are less prone to flex and thus more likely to pass impact on to the frame, in turn modern sportsbikes have hugely strong headstock areas and an ovalled bottom bearing recess is a bit more commonly seen as a result, if this is the case the frame is scrap. Measure the recess carefully, and have the frame checked for alignment, (Maidstone Motoliners or similar), even if there is no obvious damage.
Having seen the bike and also being aware of what happened to it, I would be extremely surprised if the frame is undamaged. Strong modern forks are less prone to flex and thus more likely to pass impact on to the frame, in turn modern sportsbikes have hugely strong headstock areas and an ovalled bottom bearing recess is a bit more commonly seen as a result, if this is the case the frame is scrap. Measure the recess carefully, and have the frame checked for alignment, (Maidstone Motoliners or similar), even if there is no obvious damage.
I know its wrong - but hope you are not right this time round :)
plowsie
10-07-09, 12:48 PM
Piece of mind either way though isn't it :)
And don't listen to Matt :lol: (no offence Matt ;))
I was merely expressing interest in the offer of the bike as a project! :p
muffles
10-07-09, 12:59 PM
I was merely expressing interest in the offer of the bike as a project! :p
:p
I mentioned this to Gary already but it seems like the best idea is to get the frame checked out first before deciding what to do with it...
Sid Squid
13-07-09, 09:01 PM
I know its wrong - but hope you are not right this time round :)
Quite, I understand precisely - and I'd be more than happy to be entirely and utterly wrong about this and happier still to hear a suitably equipped engineer had given the frame a thumbs up.
yorkie_chris
13-07-09, 10:23 PM
a suitably equipped engineer
Preferably a qualified engineer with a proper frame measuring jig. Motoliner are probably the best bet, they're down near France too, so practically over the road from you.
Don't they need to strip the frame completely to use the jig? Saw it in a magazine once...
Sid Squid
14-07-09, 07:20 AM
No, primary checking measurements are done between the headstock and the rear wheel, (sometimes the swingarm pivot), so the forks and yokes will have to come out - but Gary's already removed most of the bits that were in the way. Engine, rear end etc can all stay.
First thing to do would be remove the front end completely and measure the bearing recesses for ovality with a vernier, if it passes that test then I think there's room for optimism, but doesn't then it's unlikely to be worth persevering with.
SoulKiss
14-07-09, 08:40 AM
First thing to do would be remove the front end completely and measure the bearing recesses for ovality with a vernier, if it passes that test then I think there's room for optimism, but doesn't then it's unlikely to be worth persevering with.
Whats BBC got to do with this?
plowsie
14-07-09, 09:26 AM
Whats BBC got to do with this?
DERAIL ALERT! Wheres the thread Police!
Sid, what sort of price is it for checking alignment?
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