Pointy swing arm side play.

[suzukigt380paul]

Fastdruid: I believe still that SV construction is very good. For example Bandit type is not so good: !!sv and bandit use same roller bearings and pivot spacer,the tophat bit,but have a normal bolt set up for the pivot shaft,and will check both my 600 and the 1200k3 i just sold,but as far as i am aware neither have side play

[yorkie_chris]

After reading through a lot of this, then looking at the installation diagram in the MM, then looking at my SV, lifting the rear and checking for side play, I have to say, I must be missing something.
This is a very similar system to the front axle.
If you installed the parts in proper order (1 pivot bolt, 2 hex nut, 3 castle nut) and torque them properly (15NM, 100Nm and 90Nm), there can't be any side play at the pivot.
Just like the front axle, it's made to apply sufficient pressure to the spacers so the inner races of the bearings won't spin. 15Nm on the pivot bolt will push the arms apart, slightly, as it compresses the spacers and inner bearing races.
There will be a gap on the castle nut side between the dust cover and the swingarm, but it's of no importance. The dust cover, and thus the spacers and inner bearing races, are secured by the shoulder on the castle nut end of the pivot bolt.
Surely you must be talking about side play at the rear end of the swingarm? A mm there would likely be normal. Mines less than that, maybe .5mm. I'm happy.

Yes you are missing something ;)

It's not very similar to front axle, axle bearings provide some side to side support.

On swingarm, only axial support is given by inner spacer being right length. They are not compressible.

"It's made to apply sufficient pressure". Yes it should be, but no it isn't, they fooked up.

1mm is too much play, they handle better if you can make that like a couple of thou. This problem is play at front end, not wheel end. Wheel end play is a bit more due to angular movement.,

[DavieSV]

Ta-Da...

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6990/how4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/how4.jpg/)

Sorry people, I forgot all about these.
Any one want some, please drop me a PM.

[wideguy]

Yes you are missing something ;)

It's not very similar to front axle, axle bearings provide some side to side support.

On swingarm, only axial support is given by inner spacer being right length. They are not compressible.

"It's made to apply sufficient pressure". Yes it should be, but no it isn't, they fooked up.

1mm is too much play, they handle better if you can make that like a couple of thou. This problem is play at front end, not wheel end. Wheel end play is a bit more due to angular movement.,
Wheel spacers, the internal ones between the bearings, also need to be the correct length.
If the spacer in the swingarm is too short, how does adding shims outside help? Where exactly are these shims being installed? From the apparent size, it looks like between the dust cover and the frame?

[DavieSV]

Wheel spacers, the internal ones between the bearings, also need to be the correct length.
If the spacer in the swingarm is too short, how does adding shims outside help? Where exactly are these shims being installed? From the apparent size, it looks like between the dust cover and the frame?

If the spacer in the swing arm is too short, the swing arm will bind up and not swing.
The problem is the tube is too long.

[wideguy]

Looking at the assembly again, if the inner spacers are too short, the shoulder on the pivot bolt (which is locked in the frame) will press against the dust cover and washer, then be hard against the outer race of the bearings, and against the swingarm. The result won't be side play, but lack of freedom of movement for the swingarm in the way it's designed to move- up and down.

[wideguy]

If the spacer in the swing arm is too short, the swing arm will bind up and not swing.
The problem is the tube is too long.
Thanks Davie. I was writing while you were posting.
The obvious solution to a too long part is to shorten it.

[DavieSV]

But to remove bearings is a pita & the price for new ones when you destroy them is ridiculous.
If you make it 0.002" too short, you will have to do it all over again & make a new spacer.
Putting a shim on the top hat is relatively simple & inexpensive.

[wideguy]

You don't have to remove the bearings, just slide out the inner races and the spacer.
I've shortened several inner bearing spacers for wheels with careful use of hand tools, and you're right, you don't want to shorten them too much, but it's very simple and cost me nothing. And you could probably find a thin washer the same O.D. and I.D. as the spacer if you remove too much from the spacer.
Maybe all the swingarm spacers are the same length, but some of the swingarms are too narrow?
Mine seems to be correct for both, thankfully.

[yorkie_chris]

does spacer slide out from between bearings?
can you file square... and I mean really square...?


pretty sure all this is in previous posts in thread....

[DavieSV]

I didn't think mine did, but it was four years ago ;)
The other down side is that there is no thrust bearing.
It's just the hardened bush against the aluminium swing arm.

[wideguy]

You're right Davie, the spacer won't come out without removing at least one bearing, and you would need to replace with a new bearing, but I don't see any reason that the inner bearing races couldn't be shortened as necessary.
If you don't think you could do it properly with hand tools, I think it would be easier, and thus cheaper, to have this done by a machinist than to have spacers made. Perhaps not.
The washers inside the dust covers, operating in grease, are the thrust bearings, and it looks like the outer bearing races also bear against these washers. Perhaps not, I've not had mine apart.

[yorkie_chris]

The outer races should bear against these washers, if it's all the right size.
Good luck filing the inner races down, they're hardened. You could just flick them down with a surface grinder and they'd still be square. It's quite a lot to grind off. Turning stuff that hard is a nightmare.

Spacer washers probably cost less than getting them ground, if you've got a fancy CNC then they can rattle them off in no time at all.... if only there was a tame CNC machinist round here :mrgreen:

[DavieSV]

One that's never gonna be rich ;-)

[Longway]

Thank's for Shims DavieSV, after a bit of trial and error, I ended up with a 0.35mm one side and 0.5mm the other, the swingarm is now a nice snug fit with no side movement what so ever. If anyone needs any Shims I have quite a few spare, please PM me.
I wouldn't have fancied trying to sort it by grinding some off the spacer as with such tight tolerances there is no room for error and you could easy take too much off.

[DavieSV]

The Guru (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=9308) has some of the shims at the moment.
Lawson17 (http://forums.sv650.org/member.php?u=6242) is next in line.
:)

[yorkie_chris]

I've got some shims now if anyone near me wants theirs sorting, Cheers Davie :)

[sath182]

Used some fealer guages and measured mine tight at .87mm when I put the swingarm back in. I suppose I would need a pair of .32mm shims to sort the side play.

[muzikill]

Ive got the abba stand swingarm removal kit so will be do a overhaul on the rear of the bike. Do i have to remove the exhaust just to do basic maintainence? - i will also be attempting to removal the play!

[yorkie_chris]

Yeah remove exhaust

[muzikill]

Yeah remove exhaust

damn..... that means i have to do the madman wiggle to remove it. Plus ill be looking for a new chain slider (might as well replace it!)

[sath182]

Yup, unfortunately I forgot to measure the gap and locate shims in my haste to see the pretty new exhaust. I do want to get them for later though. YC, what about trial fitting shims by stuffing them in the gap and moving the swinger?

[DavieSV]

You really need a best guess and trial fit them, then feel for play, remove to adjust if necessary.
I found when I torqued it up on the bench, it was different to in the frame.

[sath182]

The measurements I took were with the suspension fully mounted. Shoved the swinger to one side and measured between the bearing and the spacer. Trial and error until I added up enough point-whatevers to fill the gap.

[pajomad]

Hey guys looks like I have a 1mm gap as well,I'm getting the bit of a wobble when I load it into a bend and also on full power upshifts .is there any. 35mm or. 4 of those shims left?

[suzukigt380paul]

Hey guys looks like I have a 1mm gap as well,I'm getting the bit of a wobble when I load it into a bend and also on full power upshifts .is there any. 35mm or. 4 of those shims left?i doubt that your wobble is caused by a 1mm side play on the swinging arm pivot

[pajomad]

What do you reckon is causing it?the back wheel is straight,tyre is good, there is no play in the back wheel bearings and all the bolts are tight.
I actually thought it was the arm flexing a bit which led me to this thread. Anyone else find the swingarm could be a bit stiffer?

[suzukigt380paul]

What do you reckon is causing it?the back wheel is straight,tyre is good, there is no play in the back wheel bearings and all the bolts are tight.
I actually thought it was the arm flexing a bit which led me to this thread. Anyone else find the swingarm could be a bit stiffer?never been on a sv so dont know how well they handle,but i would check tyre pressures first then look for unusual tyre wear,wheel alinement, head race bearings,shock linkage, and front and rear suspension to start with

[pajomad]

Tyre's are checked before every ride,alignment is perfect and the headrace is smooth side to side with no knocks when rocking it with the front brake on,I have done all the usual checks except taking the swingarm off.I've only had the bike 5weeks and it only has 10k miles on it so I was really hoping the shock mount and swingarm bearings would be ok.I'll make some adjustments to the back shock to see if I can disguise it a bit before committing to buying new bearings for it.

[muzikill]

Just went to loosen my swingarm pivot bolt today and found it isnt exactly torqued up to 15nm! Will loosen it back and retorque it and check for play.

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[TicklinJock]

Hi Pajomad, how did you get on with the suspension adjustment? Did it cure the problem?

[pajomad]

I did a bit,I got rid of the pogo effect it had by dropping the front a bit and reducing spring tension and increasing the rebound on the back.what I found was all the adjustment is made in the first turn of any of the adjuster screws,after a turn out there is really no difference

[Soonmixdin]

My SV went in for it's MOT the other day and one of the advisories was that there was play in the swingarm.

They quoted me for replacing the swingarm bearing, but I am glad that i found this topic!!

Could someone explain to me, what the steps would be to someone like myself to troubleshoot this?

For example, I found this useful looking socket set the other day: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110981367098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Would it be worth me getting hold of this and trying to torque up the Pivot bolt castle nut before going into any further depth?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[muzikill]

Yes. I have a sk3 and a release and torque back up got rid.

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[Soonmixdin]

Thanks for that, I will order a set of these sockets and give that a try. Should also be useful in the event I ever decide to upgrade the rear shock!!


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[sath182]

My SV went in for it's MOT the other day and one of the advisories was that there was play in the swingarm.

They quoted me for replacing the swingarm bearing, but I am glad that i found this topic!!

Could someone explain to me, what the steps would be to someone like myself to troubleshoot this?

For example, I found this useful looking socket set the other day: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110981367098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Would it be worth me getting hold of this and trying to torque up the Pivot bolt castle nut before going into any further depth?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Just checking here, but you did gather that the play being discussed here is of the whole swingarm sliding side to side axially along the swing arm pivot. Not the same symptoms as a worn bearing which lets the back of the swing arm move side to side radially in relation to the pivot. At least the castle sockets will reduce the shop costs of replacing the bearings if they were right.

[Soonmixdin]

Hi Sath, thanks for your reply. I hadn't realised this, so glad you have cleared that up for me! In my case it is definitely the back of the swing arm where the play is, so I guess I need to get a set of replacement bearings ordered up.


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[muzikill]

How many pothole miles has the bike done btw? Ive never read a lot of swingarm bearing replacement threads btw. Play- yes but replacing them?

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[Soonmixdin]

How many pothole miles has the bike done btw? Ive never read a lot of swingarm bearing replacement threads btw. Play- yes but replacing them?

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I couldn't tell you dude - I bought the bike last year and haven't actually had it on the road until now!

[DavieSV]

Can anyone who has some shims left over and has not passed them on, please put their hand up?
I sent these out for free to help out the community, but now feel as though I've been taken advantage off.
I have people wanting some, but unfortunately some people have just taken the shims and sorted their bike out with no consideration for others.

Come on chaps! sort it out.
Let people know if you have any.

[adjblade]

Interesting topic this. Pulled my minitwin apart for a frame and swinging arm refresh, bearings, paint etc. The problem of the lateral play looks like a tolerance stack up. With the swing arm out of the bike there was about 1.2mm of lateral play. There are tolerances in manufacturing, so you have to ensure you cater for max and min variation. Suzuki have to ensure that the swing arm could never bind up, eg longest swing arm tube, shortest bearing spacer and needle bearing top hats. I cant see that an over torque of the swing arm spindle could fix the problem. I think in reality you dont notice the problem when riding the bike, I have raced this bike for 5 years with no issues, however I have reduced the bearing spacer by 1mm to remove the majority of the free play whilst it was apart.

[Bibio]

so how come other manufacturers have no play in their swingarms...

i'm pretty sure that the play is responsible for the head shaking.

[adjblade]

Good question, its been a while since ive taken something else apart. Most of us who race sv650's dont suffer headshake, and dont even bother with a steering damper so im not quite sure why you have a problem.

[Bibio]

the pointy is known for shaking its head when you give it the beans. there is a lovely long sweeping corner in the Borders just outside Peebles which has a nice dip in it, before i took the play out the swingarm the bike would wallow and shake its head after i took the play out there was no wallow or headshake. same goes for cracking the throttle wide open, bike would give a little headshake then settle. after the play was removed i get none.

yes your right the sv does not need a steering damper.

[Bias]

It's interesting that this topic should come to the top of the tree as I've just had this problem on both my Bandit and the SV.

I had the frame on the Bandit powder coated and after putting the swinging arm back in I just happened to lean on the SA from the side (no shock or linkages were attached) and I heard a clunk as the whole SA slid sideways on the pivot. The gap was 1.25 mm. I made a stainless shim to take up the gap and after tightening it all up again it was sweet as a nut. Then again I've never had a hint of headshake on the Bandit on track days or my weekend honing around Wales.

I have since checked the SV and there is definitely the same side to side movement. When I put the ZX6R shock in I will sort out the gap but I really cant see why Suzuki make the swinging arm this way, and since this is now my track bike I'd rather like to get it sorted.

I have also checked the wifes CBF600 and there's not a hint of movement !?!?!

[yorkie_chris]

I've never noticed this problem on a curvy, that might be wear related?

[CodeJACK]

Anyone got an shims still spare?

[andrewsmith]

I've never noticed this problem on a curvy, that might be wear related?
The curvy was very tight. I think it was 0.05 on mine from memory

[yorkie_chris]

How did you measure?

[andrewsmith]

Feeler gauge

[yorkie_chris]

Sounds about right.

I just tried with a clock clamped to the frame indicating against the swingarm and got 3/5ths of fook all and that was a .01 clock.

Bear in mind if bearings assembly is longer than housing tube then clearance is actually negative and overtightening the pivot will lock the system up!
Also bear in mind there are differences in how the curvy and pointy clamp up.

Though negative clearance may be what you want, minimal torque on spindle while removing play... just like adjusting an old school wheel bearing? Maybe...

[CodeJACK]

Checked my k3 today and there does seem to be a tiny amount of play but going by my linkage bearings, I think the swingarm bearings are my issue. Waiting for spindle too to be delivered so I can take it apart

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[yorkie_chris]

Interesting topic this. Pulled my minitwin apart for a frame and swinging arm refresh, bearings, paint etc. The problem of the lateral play looks like a tolerance stack up. With the swing arm out of the bike there was about 1.2mm of lateral play. There are tolerances in manufacturing, so you have to ensure you cater for max and min variation. Suzuki have to ensure that the swing arm could never bind up, eg longest swing arm tube, shortest bearing spacer and needle bearing top hats. I cant see that an over torque of the swing arm spindle could fix the problem. I think in reality you dont notice the problem when riding the bike, I have raced this bike for 5 years with no issues, however I have reduced the bearing spacer by 1mm to remove the majority of the free play whilst it was apart.

Ah right yeah couple of thou either way maybe but not 1/16 of an inch... who's making the bits? A gang of apprentices with hacksaws...

[DavieSV]

Does anybody know what allowable side play is to pass an MOT?
If the side play falls outside this specification from new, then surely it does not conform to UK spec (type approval??).
Therefore, would any body that has ever fell off in a corner have a claim against Suzuki?
That would have to be one massive recall...

[DavieSV]

Does anybody know what allowable side play is to pass an MOT?
If the side play falls outside this specification from new, then surely it does not conform to UK spec (type approval??).
Therefore, would any body that has ever fell off in a corner have a claim against Suzuki?
That would have to be one massive recall...

[CodeJACK]

While replacing the bearings today I decided to file the spacer to reduce the side play in my swinger.

Have it down the .2mm before refitting to frame. Might have taken a little too much off but I can always file the inside lip of the bearing race to get some movement going again.

I'll let ye know if this was a good idea or not.

[Bibio]

good idea, i sort of done the same to one of the bearing spacers but i used a surface grinder to do mine. i think the only problem i can see is if the surface is not totally square you might end up with a squewiff spacer causing more pressure on one part of the bearing rollers than the other.

you can use the main spindle to set the torque on the bushing so a play about with that will keep you in spec (this is what i had to do). i ended up hand tight on the spindle then spec torque on the nut and fek knows on the castle nut.

[CodeJACK]

good idea, i sort of done the same to one of the bearing spacers but i used a surface grinder to do mine. i think the only problem i can see is if the surface is not totally square you might end up with a squewiff spacer causing more pressure on one part of the bearing rollers than the other.

you can use the main spindle to set the torque on the bushing so a play about with that will keep you in spec (this is what i had to do). i ended up hand tight on the spindle then spec torque on the nut and fek knows on the castle nut.


All done up to torque spec and no more play at all. There is a very light bind but the swingarm still falls under its own weight so I assume this negligible.

[Bibio]

might bind a little more when it gets hot as it does get hot on the main swingarm tube due to the exhaust. it will eventually bed in though.