View Full Version : Should all police carry guns?
Thought it might be interesting to see what peoples take on this is, especially as there are more than just a few org coppers.
Just been randomly reading about the UK police forces and their specialist units (as you do at 3.30am:D), and came across the Central Operation Specialist Firearms Command. It actually all makes interesting reading, but it got me thinking about why every copper in this country is not equipped with a standard issue firearm.
They do it in the States, and I've got no reason to see why each officer can't carry one here. I' would actually like to think that sometimes coppers need a bit more than a baton, for their own protection if anything where situations may start becoming a bit hairy. What's the deal, is it seen as giving criminals another potential source in trying to get their hands on some firearms? Or do they think that more people will just inevitably end up getting shot by the police?
cornflakes
12-03-10, 04:23 AM
yeh i never understood this either and thought it was pretty stupid.
here in australia all our cops carry guns...albeit i think many of our cops are dumbasses and it scares me to think that they carry firearms.
but so long as you have proper training, and continued training i don't see why your police over there shouldn't carry guns. i doubt there would be that many ppl trying to attack the police over there if they knew they carried guns.
BanannaMan
12-03-10, 05:32 AM
YES!!!!
and they should all Have Glock's.
Available in your preference of size and bore.
Make mine a Model 20
If you can't stop them with 16 armor piercing 10mm rounds....(standard police issue here)
Pop in another clip for 15 more.....and run away!
You are seriously out numbered!
http://www.internetguncatalog.com/igc/pics/Large/73527.jpg
beabert
12-03-10, 05:32 AM
I think criminals may come more prepared with their own guns if they knew the police had guns. Plenty of specialist armed response units seems a better idea, im not sure how it works now.
timwilky
12-03-10, 08:02 AM
No No no, never.
I used to shoot with instructors from Lancs, Merseyside and Greater Manchester and they knew their stuff. They used to tell me your average plod was a liability. If they are not to get the range time as part of their normal duties (at least weekly), they should not be allowed to carry.
454697819
12-03-10, 08:05 AM
no, because the specialist unit gets enough grief when they get it wrong, imagine that 25000 times over, taser's yea sure they are pretty effective at close range, and they shoudl be free issue that you can just fire at any chav type person... :-)
I'd have to say no to that idea - I'd like to think that the average speeding ticket or bicycle theft doesn't require the option of lethal force. Despite what the press would like you to believe, gun and knife crime gives me the impression that it is a fairly infrequent event for officers to deal with.
Besides, I'm sure any of the people on here who've met our resident plumbers would agree that they shouldn't be trusted with a pipe wrench, never mind a firearm :p
Tom_the_great
12-03-10, 08:19 AM
IMO Yes if they get rid of 50% of the force an replace them with capable officers .... if we had a capable police force it would put alot of people off crime. but to go with that you need a senseable gov which dont sue everyone for everything so think theres a lot of work to be done...
the_lone_wolf
12-03-10, 08:21 AM
Dear god
You want to arm these people???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZC-2t7Ohw
;)
ethariel
12-03-10, 08:26 AM
It's a nice idea to sonsider giving all serving police officers a firearm of one sort or another, however some coppers i know would really not be suited to carrying one...ever..., others would have no issue at all.
The problem with firearms in this country is that people do not have enough exposure to them and to most they are a shiny toy that does nothing but kill (it does not fire it's self).
Slowly introducing them to police in stages over many years may be an answer but imho, we have the TASER, not good enough to go up against a firearm wielding suspect really, but for virtually every other instance they win hands down. (and to all those liberals out there against tasers 'just incase he might have a heart condition and die', surely the occasional death by taser is better than 100 from firearms instead)
However if we do arm the police as standard, how ling till i's the *gulp* PCSO's and the street wardens and security guards that then start clammouting that they need to carry them too..... It would raise the stakes all round.
No, Arm PSCO's instead. That'll freak out the Yobs
Drew Carey
12-03-10, 08:33 AM
Errrrr NO.....
With the cost cutting that goes on with the UK police force at the moment and targets etc. I just think it is one area the Government could not afford and would mean cheap guns, less training. Recipe for disaster.
Plus, I have no doubts there are many capable officers who could, but my ex was a cop and is currently serving time for beating her ex (after me) to a pulp. Not being funny, I wouldn't trust many with a mars bar let alone a gun!!!!
metalangel
12-03-10, 08:38 AM
Back home all the cops have guns, and were quoted in the papers in response to a story about 'do they need better guns to counter the guns criminals now have' said that if they wanted to be on equal standing with the criminals they'd need SMGs as their standard weapon!
Guns, part of me says yes... but it's probably a receipe for disaster. Whilst some are capable, I feel a lot would not be. Leave it to specialist branches.
Tasers on the other hand could be more widespread as a less fatal alternative. I think all officers should be issued with them.
Specialone
12-03-10, 08:43 AM
Defo no, we alienate special units now when they do use guns in the course of their jobs so how will they cope when all police have them.
There's too much human emotion, mistakes and variation in our brains to control sucessfully.
If you ask a lot of coppers, my brother included, they dont want them, too much responsibility.
But...taking a can of pepper spray and a batton to a gun fight aint good either.
I have spoken to a couple of american cops and they find it hard to understand why our police dont have them, with the attitude of "we'll how do they defend themselves then"? .
Phil
G just reminded me ^
What about non lethal weapons, wether soft rounds, bean bag shotguns, tazers as G said, stun guns?
metalangel
12-03-10, 08:45 AM
I'm just picturing the cops leaping out of vans, forming into proper firing line and just cutting down a group of chavs.
GO GO GO they shout, jump back into the vans and race off to find the next group of be-hooded ferals.
wyrdness
12-03-10, 08:50 AM
I'm just picturing the cops leaping out of vans, forming into proper firing line and just cutting down a group of chavs.
GO GO GO they shout, jump back into the vans and race off to find the next group of be-hooded ferals.
Not THAT is an idea I like :D
We don't trust them with radar guns!
The police are not just there to "drop" bad guys, but provide other community services. I know I feel uncomfortable round the heavily armed airport police, and would never ask them to help find my kitty.
Furthermore, sometimes they misuse the weapons they have. More lethal ones are not the answer.
http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0911/police-medic-police-riot-demotivational-poster-1259267024.jpg (http://www.motifake.com/police-medic-police-riot-demotivational-poster-79587.html)
Bluepete
12-03-10, 09:14 AM
Nope, never. I don't want one, I'll do my best to avoid carrying one. It's just not needed in the UK for each and every Cop to carry a weapon.
There are more Tazers in place now, some section Officers (Thise who resond to 999's) have them, as do some of the specialist vehicle crime units. They are bad enough.
As for guns? The outcome of using one for it's designed purpose is a fatality. No-one is taught to "Shoot to wound". In my twelve years of service, I've only ever been directly involved in one job involving a firearm, and that's in Manchester, a place renowned for gun cime!
There isn't enough of a problem in the UK with guns for full issue to Cops.
Pete ;)
There isn't enough of a problem in the UK with guns for full issue to Cops.
As a serving officer, what do you make of the "if the police start carrying guns, then so will their customers" argument?
Bluepete
12-03-10, 09:25 AM
It's an argument.
As far as I know, there's no proof either way in the UK.
Most armed jobs involve a great big feck off machete or hammer. As was said in Lock Stock, "Guns are for show, knives are to go".
Guns are, despite what some will claim, very hard to get hold of in the UK. I've never given the debate much thought really, but I'll ponder on it today.
Pete ;)
-Ralph-
12-03-10, 09:44 AM
It actually all makes interesting reading, but it got me thinking about why every copper in this country is not equipped with a standard issue firearm...
I would actually like to think that sometimes coppers need a bit more than a baton, for their own protection if anything where situations may start becoming a bit hairy
I guess you need to ask the opposite question. Do we have a massive problem in this country with coppers in a position that they are unable to defend themselves without a gun? Batons are pretty effective against knives, so how often to coppers come face to face with a criminal that points a gun at them?
If that doesn't happen often enough to be deemed a problem (and I don't know if it does or not), then what would we be trying to achieve by arming all our police?
plowsie
12-03-10, 09:58 AM
If fully trained to use one properly, why not.
I think all officers should be armed with Taser. But still have the Ops armed response as a seperate unit.
SoulKiss
12-03-10, 10:02 AM
Guns are, despite what some will claim, very hard to get hold of in the UK. I've never given the debate much thought really, but I'll ponder on it today.
Pete ;)
Maybe its because I have too much imagination, but once, when observing a couple of officers "guarding" Scotland Yard (they were down the side on Victoria Street), just across the road from a T-Junction, I found myself thinking that if I was of the type of person that would want to have a nice shiny MP5 or two, all I would need to do is hit the cops with a car, grab the weapons and then jump in a getaway car and be quids in.
Putting more guns on the street is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
Then again, in my opinion we should be able to carry swords still...
Owenski
12-03-10, 10:06 AM
Currently a minority of uk criminals carry firearms, you put 9mm on the hips of our bobbys and gun crime will sky rocket becuase every car theif will suddenly feel the need to defend himself. This will lead to car jacking and gun point cash robberys.
Arming all police is a bad idea, keep the specalists highly trained and ready to be called but dont arm the average officer it'll be chaos.
speedplay
12-03-10, 10:26 AM
No No no, never.
+1.
We don't have a gun culture here and lets keep it that way.
Some (not all) coppers are a bit dubious at times with the kit they already have, why give them something even more dangerous to carry?!
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 10:45 AM
Even the airport police are too "ooooh shinshiny"* for thier own good. Last time I flew 2 coppers in airport were armed with G36Ks.
Really, a 5.56mm assault rifle in an airport.
Even the softest/most frangible/most tumbly 5.56 round will go straight through anything at airport distances. Which nobhead thought that a good idea?
*Not that I am in any way afflicted by that when it comes to firearms
Make mine a Model 20
If you can't stop them with 16 armor piercing 10mm rounds....(standard police issue here)
Armor piercing? Seems a bit dodgy.
No No no, never.
+1
I think all officers should be armed with Taser. But still have the Ops armed response as a seperate unit.
I disagree with that as well.
The police are normal citizens (subjects!), if they need firearms to defend themselves then so do normal people.
PsychoCannon
12-03-10, 10:57 AM
I can imagine that given round my school cops were regularly mugged for their scanners and CS spray (they were trophies in the playground) I can imagine the idea of getting a cop gun would see mobs of scum just waiting to jump a smaller mob of officers...really not a good idea.
I prefer the idea of calling in TRAINED, specialists who's ONLY focus is the use of firearms turning up at a controled zone as backup rather than every joe plod having a gun walking around 24/7...
PsychoCannon
12-03-10, 11:02 AM
Last time I flew 2 coppers in airport were armed with G36Ks.
Really, a 5.56mm assault rifle in an airport..
I said the exact some thing but apparently they use "custom" bullets and remove most of the power from them to reduce the power so they don't over penetrate...in which case I asked...why the fack not just use a smaller bloody gun *sigh*.
I guess in a real cluster ***** they can switch out to the big boy bullets as an option...
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 11:08 AM
If they reduce power that much it would not cycle right surely.
Guy I knew had played about with AR15, he had messed around handloading his own subsonic ammo and said he never got it to work right. Guaranteed his handloads are more precise than ammo police will spend on buying too.
5.56 is meant to fragment, but apparently doesn't out to like 50m.
NO
Once upon a time there used to be capital punishment and occasionally Judges and juries got it wrong. Someone innocent died.
I woudn't want a beat bobby have to make snap judgements that could lead to the same thing - OMG look what happened to that Brazilian kid, then multiply that by X many beat bobbies who haven't had the level of training that the current gun carrying Police have had.
No doubt as violent crime reaches endemic levels we will see more Police with guns but I hope that it is a staged response that includes appropriate selection and training.
Sid Squid
12-03-10, 11:22 AM
Not ever.
Think about this - arming the Police means another 100,000 plus guns in our country? Now whoever it is that's got them I don't want them here.
A gun is never, ever defensive - the argument that it can be is risible, I can't think of better way of ensuring more gun crime than making sure all the crims know the Police will be armed.
timwilky
12-03-10, 12:18 PM
There is an argument for everyone to have guns. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 12:20 PM
Not many council estates in Switzerland.
Drew Carey
12-03-10, 12:23 PM
I also think that for 99.9% of all countries, they are too late to now adobt the swiss method.
the_lone_wolf
12-03-10, 12:24 PM
There is an argument for everyone to have guns. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1566715.stm
The argument is flawed though, as the article points out
Lots of guns + social responsibility =/= Lots of crime
But...
Lots of guns - social responsibility = Lots of crime
I'd suggest rather than looking at Swiss culture as an example of what would happen should firearms become commonplace we should be looking at the USA, where the society is pretty much just as broken as it is here...
ThEGr33k
12-03-10, 12:26 PM
NO
Spiderman
12-03-10, 12:28 PM
Im with all the NO camp on this for sure.
What you forget is that if a crim gets the gun off cop the cops is a dead man. Why give the crim the option of having a gun he didnt have a minute ago?
And even the ones with guns who are highly trained fek it up sometimes. Harry Stanley and JC De Menezes are 2 names that jump straight to my mind but there are many others too that died at the hands of armed officers for no good reason at all.
Dear god
You want to arm these people???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZC-2t7Ohw
;)
:D
IMO Tasers are the way forward for the average bobby. However I also believe the number of armed response and dog units should be increased. And IMHO corporal punishment should be re-intorduced, but only if the evidence is 100% overwhelming however...
Spiderman
12-03-10, 12:36 PM
dont agree with tazers either, a tazer SHOULD NOT be used as a compliance tool. They have been banned in some countries as being a weapon of torture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hNmI5gUJHo
Sir Trev
12-03-10, 12:38 PM
Do a search on the term "open carry". I read a piece on the BBC news website yesterday where a group of "open carry" folks in the US were interviewed. They go about their lives with a gun on their hip in plain view stating that the second amendment allowed them to do it.
Of course the discussion underneath the article descended into the usual arguments about the interpretation of the wording of the amendment from both pro- and anto views.
The point missed however by a lot of the argument was that as the US has a culture of gun use it is seen as acceptable and even necessary to carry a gun. I hope that never comes over to the UK as so many US traditions seem to...
jamesterror
12-03-10, 12:41 PM
.. more paperwork, simply, no.
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 12:41 PM
dont agree with tazers either, a tazer SHOULD NOT be used as a compliance tool. They have been banned in some countries as being a weapon of torture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hNmI5gUJHo
Plus the famous "don't taze me man" thing on youtube somewhere... for asking awkward questions.
I'm firmly in the camp that says firearms in general possession are a guarantor of freedom, firearms in the hands of law enforcement only are the tools of an oppressive government.
Spiderman
12-03-10, 12:46 PM
Plus the famous "don't taze me man" thing on youtube somewhere... for asking awkward questions.
I'm firmly in the camp that says firearms in general possession are a guarantor of freedom, firearms in the hands of law enforcement only are the tools of an oppressive government.
yeh was just watching that exact clip and you know YC that both you, me and a whole bunch of other people would act just like that guy and end up just like him too.
I love the fact the hero cops in the clip also think it needs 4 of then and pepper spray to subdue the guys mother for being agry her son gets tazered when hes complying and lying on the floor as he was told to do.
Morons and idiots in charge of firearms of any kind scare me.
the_lone_wolf
12-03-10, 12:49 PM
They have been banned in some countries as being a weapon of torture.
Which countries?:smt017
Spiderman
12-03-10, 12:57 PM
Which countries?:smt017
Switzerland was one and i know they were urging Canada and Portugal to ban them too, not sure if either of those countries did tho.
The UN Committee against Torture recently judged Tasers to be a potentially lethal form of torture and urged Portugual to reconsider arming its police with them.
"The use of these weapons causes acute pain, constituting a form of torture," the committee said at the end of its 39th session in Geneva.
"In certain cases they can even cause death, as has been shown by reliable studies and recent real-life events," it said.
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 12:57 PM
Can I just remind everyone that cops do currently carry a firearm. CS Spray is a Section 5 Firearm...just wanted to remind you of that.
With regards to all cops having guns, like Bluepete, I don't want to see this happen. There isn't currently a big enough gun culture in the UK.
Just another point - Batons are not "effective" in dealing with knives. Having been in the situation where someone was coming at me and my colleague with 2 x 8inch kitchen knives, we chose our spray and only drew our batons as a last resort. To be close enough to baton someone with a knife, is to be close enough to be slashed/stabbed etc by said knife.
gruntygiggles
12-03-10, 12:59 PM
Can I just remind everyone that cops do currently carry a firearm. CS Spray is a Section 5 Firearm...just wanted to remind you of that.
With regards to all cops having guns, like Bluepete, I don't want to see this happen. There isn't currently a big enough gun culture in the UK.
Just another point - Batons are not "effective" in dealing with knives. Having been in the situation where someone was coming at me and my colleague with 2 x 8inch kitchen knives, we chose our spray and only drew our batons as a last resort. To be close enough to baton someone with a knife, is to be close enough to be slashed/stabbed etc by said knife.
Good point, well made.
I'm firmly in the camp that says firearms in general possession are a guarantor of freedom
You think if everyone carries a gun it means we have freedom? I'm really struggling to understand that!
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 01:03 PM
And regarding Tazers - they aren't as effective as they are made out to be. I personally don't think there is any need for all cops to carry tazers either.
Shellywoozle
12-03-10, 01:04 PM
NO !!
And I don't think all officers should carry Tazer either. I have dealt with many situations where Tazer authority has been granted, the thought process when at the scene then wipes out CS Gas as you can't Tazer someone who has has been gased. CS Gas is effective in most situations, as is the baton and the training we receive every 2 years.
The ARV's and dog units are the best trained people to deal with situations where CS, baton and unarmed defense tactics are not a viable option.
Give me a gun and I will be handing in my resignation, not my thang !!
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 01:05 PM
You think if everyone carries a gun it means we have freedom? I'm really struggling to understand that!
Subject vs Citizen and all that lot.
the_lone_wolf
12-03-10, 01:08 PM
Switzerland was one and i know they were urging Canada and Portugal to ban them too, not sure if either of those countries did tho.
Switzerland approves use of TASER brand conducted energy weapons (http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=105900)
A cursory google shows widespread use of tasers in Canada and Portugal too
As for their use being a form of torture, despite usually being a hippy liberal I agree with the manufacturer, totally out of touch with modern policing, given the choice between getting tased or shot, I'd take the taser thanks
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 01:09 PM
Being shot isn't even an option though, even the yanks don't shoot people in the back of the head for being a bit rowdy after a few too many wifebeaters.
Specialone
12-03-10, 01:10 PM
Do a search on the term "open carry". I read a piece on the BBC news website yesterday where a group of "open carry" folks in the US were interviewed. They go about their lives with a gun on their hip in plain view stating that the second amendment allowed them to do it.
Of course the discussion underneath the article descended into the usual arguments about the interpretation of the wording of the amendment from both pro- and anto views.
The point missed however by a lot of the argument was that as the US has a culture of gun use it is seen as acceptable and even necessary to carry a gun. I hope that never comes over to the UK as so many US traditions seem to...
It is not allowed in all states of USA to carry a concealed weapon either, by concealed that could mean on the passenger seat under a newspaper.
I know a few in Texas who have the concealed weapon privilage, you have to attend a 1 day course and thats it.
My friend who now lives in hawaii had it and so did his mother, she was about 80 and carried a little derringer type 2 shot deal, god help the guy who tried anything with her cos she would shoot them down without hesitation;)
There was a big stink in Texas about signs in some restaraunts etc saying 'bare no arms', this broke the constitution and they caused uproar when they were refused entry while armed.
Not all states in America are pro guns, but Texas are ;)
I'm firmly in the camp that says firearms in general possession are a guarantor of freedom.
That just makes it might versus right. :confused:
I would never choose to carry a firearm, so would make myself vunerable to the whim of somebody who does.
Specialone
12-03-10, 01:12 PM
As a gun nut, just for the record, i'd love one :)
Nice bren gun will do, Glock for the waist.
Spiderman
12-03-10, 01:13 PM
its good to hear so many serving boys n girls dont want to be routinely armed.
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 01:14 PM
its good to hear so many serving boys n girls dont want to be routinely armed.
I can tell you that this discussion comes up now and again at work and 99% of us all agree that we don't need to carry guns as part of our normal PPE.
Specialone
12-03-10, 01:14 PM
its good to hear so many serving boys n girls dont want to be routinely armed.
I have heard more cops say no to guns than yes tbh, they dont want the responsibility and quite rightly so.
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 01:15 PM
That just makes it might versus right. :confused:
Chairman Mao would probably agree, and so would Comrade Brown.
So imagine NuLabour "decide" that the terrorist "threat" is so great that they will be delaying the elections this year and "temporarily" suspending the right to a free press and freedom of assembly (well f*ck me they already did the 2nd one!).
What are we going to do about it? Sod all. Unarmed you are a subject. Petrol bombs and colourful language don't work very well.
What are we going to do about it? Sod all. Unarmed you are a subject. Petrol bombs and colourful language don't work very well.
Armed or unarmed, you are still a subject of Her Majesty.
So imagine NuLabour "decide" that the terrorist "threat" is so great that they will be delaying the elections this year and "temporarily" suspending the right to a free press and freedom of assembly (well f*ck me they already did the 2nd one!).
Yeah, so get off your butt and vote when the chance arrives; and without the military on the side of the government (as opposed to their political pawn) the chance will come. If everybody thinks one party is as bad as the other - form one that appeals to the common man.
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 01:34 PM
Armed or unarmed, you are still a subject of Her Majesty.
Funny somewhere after the last question of the powers of the monarchy the bill of rights was written which entitled you to keep arms for your own defense.
Unfortunately the bit after that "as allowed by law" renders it powerless.
Spiderman
12-03-10, 01:53 PM
Yeah, so get off your butt and vote when the chance arrives; and without the military on the side of the government (as opposed to their political pawn) the chance will come. If everybody thinks one party is as bad as the other - form one that appeals to the common man.
Voting? Pah, dont make me laugh. This type of a farce of "democracy" is a joke. You NEVER vote for a party that appeals to you, you simply vote against the party that spent years being as corrupt as the others you voted them in to get rid of in the first place.
God if Screaming Lord Sutch and his Monster Raving Loony Party were still about he'd be getting the majority of votes nowdays by the millions like me who are sick of the major parties all being the same self serving, money grabbing corrupt gits in nice suits.
Voting? Pah, dont make me laugh. This type of a farce of "democracy" is a joke. You NEVER vote for a party that appeals to you, you simply vote against the party that spent years being as corrupt as the others you voted them in to get rid of in the first place.
God if Screaming Lord Sutch and his Monster Raving Loony Party were still about he'd be getting the majority of votes nowdays by the millions like me who are sick of the major parties all being the same self serving, money grabbing corrupt gits in nice suits.
Instead of whingeing, do something to garner the votes of the "millions like you" - you seem to know what they want.
Still no to guns BTW.
unlike America and other country's the uk does not really have any dangerous animals (apart from the natives)that warrant carrying a gun.
i for 1 would be applauded at the British bobby caring guns, we have survived a couple of hundred years the way we are, why would we want some bloody gun company raping the British tax payer fro even more money.
'stop or i'll shout stop again' we are a tiny little island with not to big a crime rate despite what the media are telling us, so why do the police force need guns. they do a perfectly adequate job so far as i can see. only country's with police who have small manhoods need guns to make up for their inadequacies. i think the uk is one of only a handful of places that the police dont carry guns, if not the only. which puts the great in britain.
kellyjo
12-03-10, 02:29 PM
I want my kids to grow up feeling that the police are approachable, if my daughter thought the police were armed she wouldnt go within a mile of them.
BanditPat
12-03-10, 03:03 PM
I think it would be nice if all police were given at least basic firearms training and they had access to them if the situation arose that they needed to use them. More firearms and dog units would be great IMO. But I think that the public should be allowed to own/carry guns for self/home defence. I personally would love to be allowed to own a pistol to use at shooting ranges and the like. If the needed arose in the future it would make any possible invasion a bit more difficult as well. To me whether a copper is carrying a gun makes no difference to whether i would be bothered about approaching them, I've lived around guns most of my life and being not far from sellafield and working there for a while it was nice to see the shiny toys that the CNC have.
Spiderman
12-03-10, 03:06 PM
Instead of whingeing, do something to garner the votes of the "millions like you" - you seem to know what they want.
Still no to guns BTW.
Well short of setting up my own political party what do you suggest i do?
Oh and i'm not whingeing, thats what children and morons do, i'm simply stating an obvious fact so please dont feel you have earnt the right to talk down to me.
Why do you think in the last few elections there has been such low numbers turning out to vote?
Why do you think the BNP are getting votes in regional elections?
Cos the masses are sick of this system of farce of a democracy.
And sadly i dont know enough big wigs or rich industrialists who will give me millions to put together a political party. After all its not the politicians who put the party together but the money men who front up the cash.
So, at least we agree on one thing, no to guns, can we put our heads together and come up with how we can make a real change to how politics works i wonder?
Well short of setting up my own political party what do you suggest i do?
The deposit for standing for election is very small (in relative terms): £500 in 2005. It is advertising that costs the big bucks. If you need to advertise heavily then your policies are not selling themselves - something the big parties seem to forget.
If you have the backing of millions of people, then you can get elected and start change for good. If you don't have this backing, then you will lose your deposit. If the electorate is so fickle that it believes the advertising of other parties, then you don't have the grass roots support you believe.
It gets my goat when people complain about something they can change - albeit in a small way. Democracy may not be perfect, but it is the best solution we have at the moment; the perfect system doesn't exist because of people - some are more equal than others.
And I also don't believe that political advertising should be centrally funding.
No, I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying one and imo (dunno if any one will agree) I could see more crims carrying / using guns if the police carried them.
Sid Squid
12-03-10, 03:53 PM
Can I just remind everyone that cops do currently carry a firearm. CS Spray is a Section 5 Firearm...just wanted to remind you of that.
Is this a justification for carrying guns or not? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Well some very interesting responses, especially seeing as many of the police themselves are saying no to firearms as well, so you can't argue with that...it is their job. I guess it is very much born out of a culture thing in this country. Fortunately we don't have easy access to guns, and they are not a significant problem. I completely understand where people are coming from, and introducing them could create more problems.
But the flip side to that is that our police do get hurt or even killed.
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/pcjonhenry/Man-charged-with-policeman39s-murder.2948894.jp
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article812410.ece
What you forget is that if a crim gets the gun off cop the cops is a dead man. Why give the crim the option of having a gun he didnt have a minute ago?
But if a criminal really want a cop dead, surely an unarmed cop would be an easier target. A gun would not just happen to fall into the hands of a crim, and if the crim is going for the gun he is intending to kill. In which case, the current unarmed officers would be much easier targets on that assumption. Spray would not do anything against a man in a mask covering his nose/mouth and wearing some sort of eye protection. And as MBK stated, if you're within baton range, you are within knife range.
Also I do not think the Menezes case applies to this question, as the average police officer would be trained to shoot if they believed their life was in imminent danger and they have given plenty warnings - very different to watching and tracking a terror suspect, then pinning him down and shooting him repetitively in the head (obv the average armed policeman would not be given this power to deal with an unarmed man, terror suspect or not).
Sid Squid
12-03-10, 04:30 PM
But the flip side to that is that our police do get hurt or even killed.
True, but it's not like Police in countries where arms are regularly carried never get killed.
Sadly I can't find the relevant document, but some years ago a newspaper, (I forget which one), tallied up attacks on the Police themselves here and in the States and found that despite being armed US officers stand a greater risk of dying at work than do UK officers.
Also I do not think the Menezes case applies to this question, as the average police officer would be trained to shoot if they believed their life was in imminent danger and they have given plenty warnings - very different to watching and tracking a terror suspect, then pinning him down and shooting him repetitively in the head (obv the average armed policeman would not be given this power to deal with an unarmed man, terror suspect or not).
I can see where you are coming from but I think you are now making an assumption.
Whatever "Rules of Engagement" are issued you can guarantee they will be crossed, and hindsight will be used to justify the accident - little use to the poor sod with the hole in their head.
i think the gun thing has positives and negatives but i would probably say its more hassle than its worth.
dogs are better than guns imo.
police with guns dont scare me half as much as police dogs, if it is chasing u, unless you kill it, u are fu*ked imo.
i just think the cops over here need to be a bit more like other countries police forces (im sure many would if they didnt think they would get sued or fired), they take no sh*t from no one. i would serioulsy think twice about bk talking a garda civil or US cop, u get mouthy with them they kick the sh*t out of you, men and women.
i just think the cops over here need to be a bit more like other countries police forces (im sure many would if they didnt think they would get sued or fired), they take no sh*t from no one. i would serioulsy think twice about bk talking a garda civil or US cop, u get mouthy with them they kick the sh*t out of you, men and women.
I'm not sure promoting violence BY the police is actually the answer to anything...
no, but i know alot of people that dont have a lot of respect for them. they take a lot of cra* because people know they can get away with it, when sometimes all the person needs is a good slap to shut them up, instead of arresting for Section 5.
no, but i know alot of people that dont have a lot of respect for them. they take a lot of cra* because people know they can get away with it, when sometimes all the person needs is a good slap to shut them up, instead of arresting for Section 5.
That is symptomatic of society, and not an excuse to allow the police to "teach them a lesson"
True, but it's not like Police in countries where arms are regularly carried never get killed.
Sadly I can't find the relevant document, but some years ago a newspaper, (I forget which one), tallied up attacks on the Police themselves here and in the States and found that despite being armed US officers stand a greater risk of dying at work than do UK officers.
Although that wouldnt really be a fair comparison as both countries are extremely different and there are many more variables than jus the officer carrying a gun. The question that would be more suitable is would americn cops die more/less if they had no firearms at all. Cops over there are cautious of the smallest of traffic stops. Likewise the same question can be asked for police here, but its difficult to draw valid conclusions by comparing two countries directly in this way.
Sid Squid
12-03-10, 05:30 PM
That is symptomatic of society, and not an excuse to allow the police to "teach them a lesson"
Possibly, I wonder when the penny will drop and the Police realise that their present attitude is a good proportion of the problem.
That is symptomatic of society, and not an excuse to allow the police to "teach them a lesson"
imo i think it should be little sh*ts might learn then
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 05:36 PM
u get mouthy with them they kick the sh*t out of you, men and women.
And of course the fact that they can get away with that never gets misused...
My idea of ideal governance is far more liberty than we currently enjoy, but coming down far harder on those who take the p*** with it.
For a start I'd eliminate all liability for injuries recieved in the course of commiting crime. But I definitely wouldn't give the police carte blance to give people a kicking, even though I'm 100% sure there's people deserve it.
Police need to be whiter than white if they want to morally enforce the law.
Sid Squid
12-03-10, 05:45 PM
Although that wouldnt really be a fair comparison as both countries are extremely different and there are many more variables than jus the officer carrying a gun. The question that would be more suitable is would americn cops die more/less if they had no firearms at all. Cops over there are cautious of the smallest of traffic stops. Likewise the same question can be asked for police here, but its difficult to draw valid conclusions by comparing two countries directly in this way.
Possibly, but as a justification for arming the Police it's hardly a step in the right direction is it?
More guns, whoever is holding them, isn't going to lead to decrease in people getting shot.
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 06:08 PM
I want my kids to grow up feeling that the police are approachable, if my daughter thought the police were armed she wouldnt go within a mile of them.
They are armed now.
I really don't get why people are so scared of guns, it's this reason guns are a problem. They are a lump of metal (fair enough a shiny expensive lump of metal) that has never killed anyone, ever.
Go to a shooting range and guaranteed there's less chance of getting shot there than there is of getting stabbed in some toilet of an estate.
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 06:44 PM
Can I just remind everyone that cops do currently carry a firearm. CS Spray is a Section 5 Firearm...just wanted to remind you of that.
With regards to all cops having guns, like Bluepete, I don't want to see this happen. There isn't currently a big enough gun culture in the UK.
Just another point - Batons are not "effective" in dealing with knives. Having been in the situation where someone was coming at me and my colleague with 2 x 8inch kitchen knives, we chose our spray and only drew our batons as a last resort. To be close enough to baton someone with a knife, is to be close enough to be slashed/stabbed etc by said knife.
Is this a justification for carrying guns or not? I can't see what you're trying to say.
Read the whole post you quoted. I was only reminding people who were shouting about cops not getting firearms that we currently do have firearms as part of our kit.
yorkie_chris
12-03-10, 09:59 PM
I dunno, it fits into sect 5 but it isn't an arm that uses fire?
Vorkohnen
12-03-10, 10:07 PM
Well it would give the cops a better chance if zombies start shambling about.
Just saying...
Just because CS Spray is covered under Section 5 of the firearms act does not make it a gun, it just makes it a prohibited weapon.
gruntygiggles
12-03-10, 10:23 PM
Just because CS Spray is covered under Section 5 of the firearms act does not make it a gun, it just makes it a prohibited weapon.
No-one has said CS spray is a gun....just that it is technically a firearm under Section 5 of the firearms act.
I also don't believe that anyone should apportion any blame on "the police". Feel free to blast individual police officers that are not worthy of the power they have, but the police as a whole are limited by what they are and aren't allowed to do as set out by the government. Most officers would love for things to be different.....but lets just thank god that there are still people willing to take all the crap from both sides of the coin in order to try and keep us safe.
I've had my issues with the police......and been a victim of the most ridiculous investigation...but that was down to the idiocy of one officer....not the police in general.
The buck doesn't stop with them, they are just an easy target.
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 11:10 PM
Just because CS Spray is covered under Section 5 of the firearms act does not make it a gun, it just makes it a prohibited weapon.
At no point did I say that it was a gun. I was merely pointing out that it is a Section 5 Firearm in response to the "Police officers shouldn't have firearms".
I have stated that I don't think we should have guns.
-Ralph-
12-03-10, 11:35 PM
Knife vs Baton? Suppose CS spray is a better weapon in that case, but I wouldn't say the baton us useless against the knife. It all depends who is holding the knife and who is holding the baton. Its a moot point anyway, the purpose of the post was to illustrate that the prooblem in this county is more knife related than gun related, and you don't need a gun to combat a knife.
Milky Bar Kid
12-03-10, 11:41 PM
Knife vs Baton? Suppose CS spray is a better weapon in that case, but I wouldn't say the baton us useless against the knife. It all depends who is holding the knife and who is holding the baton. Its a moot point anyway, the purpose of the post was to illustrate that the prooblem in this county is more knife related than gun related, and you don't need a gun to combat a knife.
I didn't say it was useless but it is a last resort.
My incident, for example, was in the summer. Under my body armour, which only covers my torso, not arms, I had a tshirt. My arms were bare. If CS does not work, which it didn't for a long time in this case, then the last option left for us was baton. In order to baton him, we would have had to have been close enough for him to have stabbed or slashed us, at least, on the arm.
I do agree with your point that knife crime is much more prevalent than gun and in most cases, gun vs knife is a disproporionate use of force.
Sid Squid
13-03-10, 01:45 AM
Read the whole post you quoted.
I have done thank you.
I was only reminding people who were shouting about cops not getting firearms that we currently do have firearms as part of our kit.
Still not sure what you're getting at, are you saying that arming the Police has already happened? CS is harmful and illegal and you shouldn't have it either - but it's somewhat of a step from that to to guns, no?
Milky Bar Kid
13-03-10, 01:51 AM
I have done thank you.
Still not sure what you're getting at, are you saying that arming the Police has already happened? CS is harmful and illegal and you shouldn't have it either - but it's somewhat of a step from that to to guns, no?
TBH I have no idea what you are on about. I have said numerous times in this thread that I do not agree with us being issued with guns....
carternd
13-03-10, 02:24 AM
I don't think the police should have guns. If they are to be universally armed I should have the right to bear arms too. Do you trust ME with a gun?
If the citizens can't defend themselves against the state they risk being the victims of tyranny. I don't believe that the police are any better than the rest of us, so I worry that they can be used as a tool of oppression.
If I was a policeman, I wouldn't want that power. So NO.
Milky Bar Kid
13-03-10, 02:27 AM
I don't think the police should have guns. If they are to be universally armed I should have the right to bear arms too. Do you trust ME with a gun?
If the citizens can't defend themselves against the state they risk being the victims of tyranny. I don't believe that the police are any better than the rest of us, so I worry that they can be used as a tool of oppression.
If I was a policeman, I wouldn't want that power. So NO.
+1.
From a cop...+1
BanannaMan
13-03-10, 03:07 AM
Armor piercing? Seems a bit dodgy.
Body armor aka bulletproof aka balistic type clothing.
Not tanks or the like.
Being shot isn't even an option though, even the yanks don't shoot people in the back of the head for being a bit rowdy after a few too many wifebeaters.
There has to be legal justification to use deadly force.
Police involved in any shooting are imediately put "on leave" until the the state conducts a full investigation.
And yes... they have to spend X amount of hours at the shooting range as well as pass marksmanship tests several times a year to carry a gun.
And they have combat type training yearly as well.
But truthfully, Police here rarely have to use their weapons. Indeed many never do during their career.
It's more to protect them while trying to uphold the law than it is to use on criminals.
To be close enough to baton someone with a knife, is to be close enough to be slashed/stabbed etc by said knife.
This however would be legal justification in the US to use deadly force.
Come at an officer with a knife and you'll likely be shot dead long before getting close enough to stab anyone.
Problem is..
Nearly everyone owns a gun in the US... so not having guns isn't an option for Police here.
arenalife
13-03-10, 06:19 AM
Dangerous Dave would know what to do :)
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