View Full Version : Who supports the Unions uprising?
Except that that person may actually organise 10,000 workers who do fix people so that they save the public purse 10x his salary...
Ssshhh. People who work in the public sector and earn more than a nurse/soldier/policeman are by definition useless waste of the public purse. ;)
Biker Biggles
15-09-10, 05:55 PM
Leaving aside the specific stuff about cutting how much where and when,a couple of observations.
The private sector workers have taken a battering over the last couple of years,but they tend to be non unionised these days.Perhaps there is a correlation here.Are they the first easy targets for that reason?
Unions represent mostly ordinary wage earners on moderate wages,and banding together in this way is their only hope of having any clout in negotiations with employers who,by definition,have a bit of financial clout in this economy.
The slightly more radical among us might claim that our government(whoever is in power)is largely there to manage the country on behalf of those with financial clout,and organisations like unions are there to push the interests of working people.
Hence it is legitimate(if not legal)for them to take on a government that threatens the livlihoods of those working people.
the_lone_wolf
15-09-10, 07:06 PM
The slightly more radical among us might claim that our government(whoever is in power)is largely there to manage the country on behalf of those with financial clout,and organisations like unions are there to push the interests of working people.
Hence it is legitimate(if not legal)for them to take on a government that threatens the livlihoods of those working people.
That's the logic??? Jesus wept...:smt120
These peoples' livelihoods are no more threatened by cuts than a drug dealer's is by law enforcement - they chose to go into an unsustainable system and haven't got any cause to be complaining when the money runs out
The private sector has been through rough times because it doesn't have billions in borrowed, non-existent, funding pumped into it to keep the gravy train from derailing
MisterTommyH
15-09-10, 07:21 PM
.Are they the first easy targets for that reason?
The first? I don't see how these could be considered the first targets.
Government funding in all sorts of projects, social housing, future education etc etc has been on hold / withdrawn since before the election. This has caused hardship for the stakeholders in those areas as well as the private companies bidding / tendering for the frameworks - The effects of this seem to be hitting the public sector last, with it having bee subsidised by Golden Browns 'optimistic accounting'.
Leaving aside the specific stuff about cutting how much where and when,a couple of observations.
The private sector workers have taken a battering over the last couple of years,but they tend to be non unionised these days.Perhaps there is a correlation here.Are they the first easy targets for that reason?
Unions represent mostly ordinary wage earners on moderate wages,and banding together in this way is their only hope of having any clout in negotiations with employers who,by definition,have a bit of financial clout in this economy.
The slightly more radical among us might claim that our government(whoever is in power)is largely there to manage the country on behalf of those with financial clout,and organisations like unions are there to push the interests of working people.
Hence it is legitimate(if not legal)for them to take on a government that threatens the livlihoods of those working people.
I went from a public sector job earning xx to a private sector job earning xx. Same job, same money. Pay rises on Jan 1st every year without negotiation which at least match inflation. Am I getting taken for a ride by a private, money grabbing, employer? Don't be silly? People vote with their feet if its a bad employer.
My gripe about unions interfering with the mgt of a company is well covered by a history littered with companies that have gone to the wall. By all means defend the individual member from a bullying boss, and provide the resource to achieve that. Beyond that a union is just a group that attempts to use bullying tactics to achieve their aims.
As to public sector service industry being protected by this action... hearty haha. If everyone's job is protected there will still be cuts, e.g. the van may not changed till it falls apart, or the training course may be cancelled. In other words the service to the people who need it most will become a 3rd rate service just so someone can keep their job. It should be about service to the people, not protection of an employee at the expense of degradation of that service.
Biker Biggles
15-09-10, 08:15 PM
That's the logic??? Jesus wept...:smt120
These peoples' livelihoods are no more threatened by cuts than a drug dealer's is by law enforcement - they chose to go into an unsustainable system and haven't got any cause to be complaining when the money runs out
The private sector has been through rough times because it doesn't have billions in borrowed, non-existent, funding pumped into it to keep the gravy train from derailing
Jesus wept indeed.
Ive heard some odd explanations of who might be to blame for our current problems,but never yet heard (till now) anyone say its all the fault of binmen coppers nurses et al whose jobs are threatened.Their fault because they all went into stupid areas of employment in the first place.:smt120
yorkie_chris
15-09-10, 08:22 PM
Except that that person may actually organise 10,000 workers who do fix people so that they save the public purse 10x his salary...
My suggestion was pretty tongue in cheek, but with so many people on big wages, surely efficiency should be getting better? They can't be very good at organising? The status quo is stagnant, "spend your budget or else you won't get it next year" organisational culture. A bit of a shake up would be good, maybe get some people using their brains to accomplish a goal rather than whinging to their union reps about it...
Leaving aside the specific stuff about cutting how much where and when,a couple of observations.
The private sector workers have taken a battering over the last couple of years,but they tend to be non unionised these days.Perhaps there is a correlation here.Are they the first easy targets for that reason?
How can they be first easy targets? The government can't cut private sector jobs, why would the government cut their legitimate income from productive companies tax bill?
Does the tail wag the dog, or the other way round?
The slightly more radical among us might claim that our government(whoever is in power)is largely there to manage the country on behalf of those with financial clout,and organisations like unions are there to push the interests of working people.
Hence it is legitimate(if not legal)for them to take on a government that threatens the livlihoods of those working people.
You could also call them lunatics who should have died out in the 70s...
How can the provider threaten?
New labour threatened the livelihood of working people (like actual working people...) with over a decade of stealth taxes strangling businesses... where was the fine spirit of socialist solidarity then, comrade?
the_lone_wolf
15-09-10, 08:22 PM
Jesus wept indeed.
Ive heard some odd explanations of who might be to blame for our current problems,but never yet heard (till now) anyone say its all the fault of binmen coppers nurses et al whose jobs are threatened.Their fault because they all went into stupid areas of employment in the first place.:smt120
Probably a good thing I never said anything like that then...
Nice straw man though...:roll:
yorkie_chris
15-09-10, 08:26 PM
Probably a good thing I never said anything like that then...
These peoples' livelihoods are no more threatened by cuts than a drug dealer's is by law enforcement - they chose to go into an unsustainable system and haven't got any cause to be complaining when the money runs out
I can see where that comment came from TBH. Though "to blame" and "having no grounds to complain" are a fair distance apart...
Unsustainable system you talk about could be a police force, or the NHS... not just some d*ckhead working for a quango. (if you believe the scaremongering on the news)
but with so many people on big wages, surely efficiency should be getting better? They can't be very good at organising?
Having worked in the public sector a fair bit, I would suggest that many of those on 'big wages' are making efficiency improvement, but the Unions and others find ways to waste money even quicker. :D
the_lone_wolf
15-09-10, 08:33 PM
I can see where that comment came from TBH. Though "to blame" and "having no grounds to complain" are a fair distance apart...
Totally different meanings...
I said unsustainable in the simple fact that financially the system was doomed to failure, sooner or later
Would you be eager to join the workforce of a company that's posted year on year increases in employee numbers and increasing losses for more than a decade?
You'd be as fruitloops as the union lot if you thought that was a good way to run a business...;)
Having worked in the public sector a fair bit, I would suggest that many of those on 'big wages' are making efficiency improvement, but the Unions and others find ways to waste money even quicker. :D
Actually you're not far wrong there. In the last few years the quality, and commercial awareness, of the senior managers in the NHS I've dealt with has been refreshing.
But the senior mgrs aren't the unions who are still living in the dark ages.
yorkie_chris
15-09-10, 08:38 PM
Totally different meanings...
I said unsustainable in the simple fact that financially the system was doomed to failure, sooner or later
Would you be eager to join the workforce of a company that's posted year on year increases in employee numbers and increasing losses for more than a decade?
You'd be as fruitloops as the union lot if you thought that was a good way to run a business...;)
No... but...
"I just want to make sick people better"
"I just want to catch criminals and make my neighbourhood a better place"
"I just want to get kittens out of trees"
"I just want to shoot people who..." (bad example, try another) "spot of pink gin old chap? ... I say, time to give Johnny Jihad a damn good thrashing..."
Anyway... I'm sure you see what I mean. Not everyone looks at the economic side before embarking on a (not very transferable) career in public service...
the_lone_wolf
15-09-10, 08:46 PM
No... but...
"I just want to make sick people better"
"I just want to catch criminals and make my neighbourhood a better place"
"I just want to get kittens out of trees"
"I just want to shoot people who..." (bad example, try another) "spot of pink gin old chap? ... I say, time to give Johnny Jihad a damn good thrashing..."
Anyway... I'm sure you see what I mean. Not everyone looks at the economic side before embarking on a (not very transferable) career in public service...You forgot the..
"I just want 6 months sick leave a year as bonus holiday time"
"I just want a guaranteed pay increase each year with no performance link"
"I just want to have a massive pig headed union protecting my right to have a job"
;)
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