Who supports the Unions uprising?

[ThEGr33k]

Just wondering really, they are thinking that they will get support but im not so sure tbh...

Anyway vote, have your say etc.


Incase you have not seen/heard/read the news... >HERE< (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11278570)

[davepreston]

its like were becoming french

[BigBaddad]

its like were becoming french

without any of the perks.

[timwilky]

A big dose of reality is needed. There is only one way to reduce debt and stop adding to it, and that is to cut expenditure. Where cuts have been identified locally, I have to admit surprise that the bureaucracy of local government etc has permit such waste of tax and rate payers money.

They are assuming it is the responsibility of public service to provide jobs. No it is the responsibility of public services to identify and prioritise need and to put in place the resources to eliminate need within the budget available. For some reason the previous government decided that they should spend their way out of recession. That has left a legacy that need to be paid for.

[Bri w]

For me its not about the deficit recovery but it is about democracy. I didn't vote to be governed by a union. And the unions didn't receive a mandate from the majority of the people to act on their behalf.

Totally wrong imo

[ThEGr33k]

A big dose of reality is needed. There is only one way to reduce debt and stop adding to it, and that is to cut expenditure. Where cuts have been identified locally, I have to admit surprise that the bureaucracy of local government etc has permit such waste of tax and rate payers money.

They are assuming it is the responsibility of public service to provide jobs. No it is the responsibility of public services to identify and prioritise need and to put in place the resources to eliminate need within the budget available. For some reason the previous government decided that they should spend their way out of recession. That has left a legacy that need to be paid for.

For me its not about the deficit recovery but it is about democracy. I didn't vote to be governed by a union. And the unions didn't receive a mandate from the majority of the people to act on their behalf.

Totally wrong imo

Totally agree!

[Berlin]

I had toi laugh at the radio yesterday. There were half a dozen people who were interviewed that brought up the "Of course its better if they have a job instead of being on the dole. They'd be paying tax!" argument.

Now these people must think the civil servants get paid from where? Yes, thats right, the government. So they haven't twigged that the govermnment would save money by paying them Dole intead of a full wage and taking tax.

They also don't seem to realise that if there isn't the money to afford them, the have to go.

However, I do think they should be sorted out with a Private sector jobs before the cuts are made (by putting the conditions in place for small employers to actually grow and require more staff. At the moment they are so stiffled its not funny.)

The smart ones will have already sharted to jump ship, leaving all the no- hopers in the system. Not good for the system.

C`

[Drew Carey]

Agree with everything above.

My concern however is that......and yes this is a mass generalisation (no offence meant to anyone)....but; all the Sun reading, dole recieveing, 5-10 kids, don't want to work......type of people will read the rag and support it. So on that basis the media is unlikely to report the air of discontent against the unions.

Why should they when everyone would appear to be "moaning" at the Govt!!!! Its a shame that ordinary people who work hard, in the private sector won't really have their opinion heard and so it WILL look like the unions are supported based on the media output.

Like it or lump it, people will lose jobs. Why should every single person working in the private sector have to pay higher taxes etc if unions force the govt to back down? They shouldn't, its the one reason why I have always turned away from job offers in the public area......because when Govt's change, people lose jobs. They just need to deal with that and move on. As per berlin's post.....the good ones who are top drawer will be poached by private sector anyway.

[krhall]

I am in the public sector and am having to deal with cuts to my budgets and a pay freeze on my already poor pay, but I know that it needs to be done in order for the country to sort itself out so I (and a great deal of my colleagues) have not moaned about any of this once. We are all pleased to be retaining our jobs (at the moment).

One thing that has upset me a bit though is that our Senior Management kept hold of their 10% bonuses...

My budgets largely get spent with private sector companies though so any cuts on me also effects the private sector.

Really winds me up when I see w****** like Bob crow and that scouse monkey Tony Woodley spouting off because some of their members might be losing their jobs or not getting enough of a pay rise.

Don't get me started on London Underground staff...or BA cabin crew!

[Drew Carey]

One thing that has upset me a bit though is that our Senior Management kept hold of their 10% bonuses...


That really is ridiculous. Times like this, when its Govt money if they are making cuts all should lose their bonuses.

[krhall]

Us common plebs took the pill, 10% for us would be a hell of a lot lees than their 10%. I am told it is contractual...

[Quedos]

I'm the same krhall work in public sector and shedding at the mo approx 750 job (small authority) but its a lot.
A workplace rep I've been involved from the beginning and its hard to be objective but when everyone else is getting a pay cut/freeze and our CO are getting a wage rise that equals a pay out in excess of £45k for this year its a bitter pill to swallow.
I know we need to cut back and this place has been trying to sort it out since last year and made a pigs ear out of eveything they try and do. so they cut wages and post ( its not about people - garbage mgt speak) yet still pay 40k for hanging baskets, 45k for a 2 day festival, cut services for them to be reinstated becuase the background work was never completed and then change t and c's so much that nobody wants to work here and services are never going to be provided. it looks like that 750 is an attainable target for us as no-one can stay and work here for money being offered.

Its typical generalisation - the majority of our workers understand the need to save money and how its going to be done but why should the bosses who are on a preserved wage for life - in their contract- no matter what cuts happen make those delivering the service go from 35 - 42 hr week, pay cut, annual leave cut, and becoming multi skilled - ie joiners training as electricians and so forth.
The media will portray what they want to portray and its comparitively one sided but hey thats life and thats what those who don't work in the sector believe.

[the_lone_wolf]

I find it hard to feel any sympathy for the morons who run the unions when with one face they're predicting the end of the world (and that's only every so slightly paraphrased from last night's midnight news on R4) and with the other pocketing 12% pay rises for themselves (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=511818&in_page_id=2)

The more these idiots continue to resist changes that were inevitable due to the previous administration's deliberate destruction of the country's finances, the worse the country will be as a result. The polls show (url behind a FT paywall) that 70% of people in the UK understand and support cost cutting as a measure to recover from the damage done, the more the unions resist the majority, the less likely they are to gain any sympathy from them, especially when they can't get to work, go on holiday, etc etc

[Biker Biggles]

But on the subject of hypocrisy you wont find senior managers,executives and directors pocketing 12% pay rises will you?
Not bloody likey.They will be having far more than that.

[andrewsmith]

i sympathise with the workers who are fearing for their jobs, but i did not vote for this govt and that one with half it opposing it until june and they got sum power.
Strike away.

[Ed]

I'm a locum solicitor in local government. I think that the government is spooking everyone, and where I work there are many who are frightened whether they will have a job tomorrow. They have mortgages or rent to pay just like everyone else, several with young kids, in short local government employees ('LGEs') are not a sub-species but are ordinary people just like you and me.

I really can't stand the popular assumption - it's all too common on here BTW - that all LGEs are lazy jobsworths who talk in PC speak and who do stupid worthless jobs from 10 till 3 with an hour and a half for lunch. In my experience most LGEs are diligent and hardworking and contribute a great deal. Sure there are some who aren't, just like everywhere else, in the business where you work I'm sure you could identify some who you think are pretty useless. As LGEs are paid by the public, the public is entitled to expect value for money and efficiency, but is frightening people the way to do it?

Personally I think the Government is cutting too deep, too far. It has always been the role of unions to defend their members, and in a democracy it's perfectly acceptable for someone to stand up and oppose the government.

[Biker Biggles]

I'm a locum solicitor in local government. I think that the government is spooking everyone, and where I work there are many who are frightened whether they will have a job tomorrow. They have mortgages or rent to pay just like everyone else, several with young kids, in short local government employees ('LGEs') are not a sub-species but are ordinary people just like you and me.

I really can't stand the popular assumption - it's all too common on here BTW - that all LGEs are lazy jobsworths who talk in PC speak and who do stupid worthless jobs from 10 till 3 with an hour and a half for lunch. In my experience most LGEs are diligent and hardworking and contribute a great deal. Sure there are some who aren't, just like everywhere else, in the business where you work I'm sure you could identify some who you think are pretty useless. As LGEs are paid by the public, the public is entitled to expect value for money and efficiency, but is frightening people the way to do it?

Personally I think the Government is cutting too deep, too far. It has always been the role of unions to defend their members, and in a democracy it's perfectly acceptable for someone to stand up and oppose the government.

OMG:p
Knowing Ed as I do from this site for a few years I would expect a Thatcherite rant about evil unions destroying the country and what a great tory government we now have.
But none of it.:smt109
I agree with every word you said Ed and I find that very worrying.:D

[the_lone_wolf]

But on the subject of hypocrisy you wont find senior managers,executives and directors pocketing 12% pay rises will you?
They're not the ones calling for massive coordinated strikes to protect a spending spree worthy of Michael Jackson...

...where I work there are many who are frightened whether they will have a job tomorrow. They have mortgages or rent to pay just like everyone else, several with young kids...
So pretty much like the private sector has been for the last two years?..;)

[Luckypants]

Well I do not support the unions 'generalised strike' action to fight the cuts needed to repay the debts heaped upon us by the previous government. While I agree that most public sector workers are conscientious just like any other walk of life, it seems to be only in the public sector or government sponsored agencies where we see the 'non-jobs' such as 'Arts Development Officer' or 'Skate Park Development worker'. These are the kind of things the tax-payer recoils against and expect 'to be cut'.

I have to agree with the posters who say the bosses should not be getting their 10% bonuses. I'd be interested to see the metrics by which the bonuses are paid. I have not received a bonus for the past 6 years, despite the company meeting almost all the metrics and being highly profitable. Our managers have cleverly designed the metrics so that one seems to cancel out another, so the bonus is never paid. On the up side, most of our managers don't get one either. Bonuses in the public sector need to be scrutinised very hard, so that getting them requires a high degree of success in the role, meaning few will get them and then only for excellent work - it also needs to be applied to all suitable job levels.

[Jabba]

I agree with Tim and Bri.

The Govt currently borrows £1 out of every £4 it spends. That is no way to run any organisation.... the country or even one's own household budget. Debt is getting loaded onto the existing debt and it simply can't go on. Has to be paid back at some point.

Let's not forget, too, that had they been re-elected a Labour Govt would have been implementing 3/4 of the cuts the the current govt are proposing and it's disingenuous of them to suggest otherwise. The last govt were unable to distinguish between "the state" and "the economy". I am of the view that the public sector is too large.

I also agree that no-one voted for the country to be run by the Unions. okay, it could be agued that the country didn't vote for the current coalition, but at least we had a vote.

I'm a Union member and work in local govt. The Union leaderships are out of kilter with the views of their members. We haven't been asked our views on the announcement yesterday.

[Sir Trev]

Management bonuses are often "justified" as a way of enticing the best candidates into a job, whether that be public or private sector. Let's not forget these people really do have a difficult job to do and without the possibility of earning a good reward for some seriously stressful work I agree with that in principal. However, if you don't get the job done then pay rises and bonuses should not be paid.

[Biker Biggles]

Management bonuses are often "justified" as a way of enticing the best candidates into a job, whether that be public or private sector. Let's not forget these people really do have a difficult job to do and without the possibility of earning a good reward for some seriously stressful work I agree with that in principal. However, if you don't get the job done then pay rises and bonuses should not be paid.

I really dont buy this arguement,at least no more so than most other jobs.Management requires a set of skills like any other job,and has lots of stress like any other job,and there is no shortage of candidates for most management vacancies.Therefore in a market economy management pay shouldnt need to be that inflated,but in fact we see a distortion of the market by very powerful vested interests.Tactic number one seems to be creating the myth that these people are superhuman and irreplaceable,and must be paid vast sums to keep them sweet.That is actually true of very very few people,and I stuggle to think of anyone it would apply to in most organisations.

[Sosha]

Minorly off topic but was chatting to a chap that works fitting kitchens for the council.
"Do you know how much is charge for Kitchen?" He says...
"£30000."
"£30000 - for Units maybe max £450, Boiler - cheap boiler again maybe £450 is all cheap stuff - so where is £30000?"
(Appliances included also)

Can't vouch for his veracity - still. Get the feeling councils are treated a little like insurance repairs. Blank Chequebook.

Anyway I blame Labour and the unions for going for pushing % pay rises in the first place. :smt120.

[yorkie_chris]

Have any unions actually accomplished anything except to make sure everyone loses their job rather than some?

Coal miners... all unemployed.
British car industry... what British car industry.


They seem like a bunch of ****s to me.

[Biker Biggles]

On a different angle-----
We despise the French because they have a culture of mass action against government whenever they get hacked off,but what have been the results over the last few decades?
Despite having no oil reserves,or much else in the manner of natural resources,the French stock market has out performed the London one over the long term,and they still own their manufacturing base.Yes the French economy has its problems like any other Western country,but it has consistantly delivered a higher standard of living for its citizens,and plenty of real jobs in real industries.
They also seem to have learned to avoid blowing vast sums on getting involved in other peoples wars and padering to the Americans.

[yorkie_chris]

I don't think you'd think you had a higher standard of living if your car got burnt out every Friday because the prime minister looked at someone funny!

[the_lone_wolf]

On a different angle-----
We despise the French because they have a culture of mass action against government whenever they get hacked off,but what have been the results over the last few decades?
Despite having no oil reserves,or much else in the manner of natural resources,the French stock market has out performed the London one over the long term,and they still own their manufacturing base.Yes the French economy has its problems like any other Western country,but it has consistantly delivered a higher standard of living for its citizens,and plenty of real jobs in real industries.Correlation =/= Causation

[yorkie_chris]

From BBC;

"TUC general secretary Mr Barber told delegates:
"These are not temporary cuts, but a permanent rollback of public services and the welfare state. Not so much an economic necessity as a political project driven by an ideological clamour for a minimal state."

Permanent rollback, necessary.
Minimal state, good.

Now then, what's this communist idiot on about again?

[Biker Biggles]

Have any unions actually accomplished anything except to make sure everyone loses their job rather than some?

Coal miners... all unemployed.
British car industry... what British car industry.


They seem like a bunch of ****s to me.

The real reasons for the failure of those two was-----
Coal is plentiful and can be scraped up off the ground for next to nothing in Australia and other lucky places.Hence the miners were fighting up a steep hill for their jobs and lost.

British car industry(like many other British industries) was so badly managed it went down the pan.There are plenty of foriegn owned car plants here that are fully unionised and very well managed and profitable.

Poor leadership was and still is the main culprit in British failure.

[the_lone_wolf]

Now then, what's this communist idiot on about again?
Bob Crow was the card carrying communist until 1995, then he backed a communist candidate in the 2005 election who went on get only 233 votes - talk about being out of touch with the people...

[yorkie_chris]

@BB
I agree, but threats from the unions who want things to carry on exactly as per the status quo stifles any chance of restructuring and change to a working system.

[Berlin]

On the subject of British business failures, I've just watched an item on the TV where the labour government were willing to spend £60M to improve our ports in an efort to tempt Danish and German Wind turbine manufactuers to our shores, to make the winder turbines we need.

Here's an idea (you morons!) Spend £60M on a factory to make them and stop importing them!

Am I the only one that doesn't get that business model?

C

[yorkie_chris]

Bob Crow was the card carrying communist until 1995, then he backed a communist candidate in the 2005 election who went on get only 233 votes - talk about being out of touch with the people...

"Some trade union leaders, such as Bob Crow and Mark Serwotka, predict civil disobedience and coordinated strike action in response to cuts."

"Bob Crow has called for a campaign of "civil disobedience""


It doesn't show. :rolleyes:

I don't understand how people can support such idiots. For me the idea is as abhorrent as voting for Mr Hilter and his mate Ron Vibbentrop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDs7Ove3bs&feature=fvst)

[Ed]

My point is that the public services are taking a hammering and that someone needs to stand up and make an effective challenge. Strikes are not the answer, but proper engagement is. You can't chop 25% of a local authority budget and not notice the difference. But so far I haven't seen any great engagement by the Government with people who are most affected.

[the_lone_wolf]

But so far I haven't seen any great engagement by the Government with people who are most affected.

They haven't finalised where the cuts are going to be yet...

[Biker Biggles]

On the subject of British business failures, I've just watched an item on the TV where the labour government were willing to spend £60M to improve our ports in an efort to tempt Danish and German Wind turbine manufactuers to our shores, to make the winder turbines we need.

Here's an idea (you morons!) Spend £60M on a factory to make them and stop importing them!

Am I the only one that doesn't get that business model?

C

Good point.Im sure we have plenty of technicians and craftsmen with the skills to build these things and people with the ability to design them as well.What we lack is the leaders to put it all together,the managers to implement it and the self belief to think we can do it.

[Ed]

They haven't finalised where the cuts are going to be yet...

...and they haven't consulted either, except to ask the public for ideas on the Treasury's website.

[Biker Biggles]

Ed I worry about you.
Robert Frost wrote
"I never dared be radical when young,
For fear it would make me conservative when old"

I fear the reverse might be happening to you.

[the_lone_wolf]

...and they haven't consulted either, except to ask the public for ideas on the Treasury's website.

Perhaps that's because if they ask the lower ranks the only answers they'll get is "not in our department" - at the end of the day it's not a case of what people want, it's a case of entire non-job sections taking millions and providing no benefit in return, you don't keep unprofitable teams on staff without a very good reason...

The public sector is unsustainable at it's current size, it sucks that people will lose their jobs but that's the danger of working in a "company" that's so inefficient and something the private sector has had to deal with...

[ThEGr33k]

From BBC;

"TUC general secretary Mr Barber told delegates:
"These are not temporary cuts, but a permanent rollback of public services and the welfare state. Not so much an economic necessity as a political project driven by an ideological clamour for a minimal state."

Permanent rollback, necessary.
Minimal state, good.

Now then, what's this communist idiot on about again?

Yes, I see the rollback as good, less benefits great, maybe they will get off their ar$e and get a job!?

The real reasons for the failure of those two was-----
Coal is plentiful and can be scraped up off the ground for next to nothing in Australia and other lucky places.Hence the miners were fighting up a steep hill for their jobs and lost.

British car industry(like many other British industries) was so badly managed it went down the pan.There are plenty of foriegn owned car plants here that are fully unionised and very well managed and profitable.

Poor leadership was and still is the main culprit in British failure.

Yes, poor leadership and still they pay them extra... Maybe they should have figured out "people chasing money" doesnt = "Good at job"?

Along the lines of what someone has already said, Us Brits have never had a problem with engineering and idea's, we have had issues with leadership that have the bottle to see things through... You'd be amazed at how many brilliant projects we have sold off to other countries (USA mostly) over the years because we didn't care/dare to commit!

[punyXpress]

They haven't finalised where the cuts are going to be yet...

That's why THEY are going in for pre-emptive strikes.

[Ed]

We have just had a team meeting - there are 80 people in the legal team here at Liverpool City Council, and the management are looking to lose 16 - 20 posts. Some will be voluntary, rest compulsory. We were told that there will be a revised structure plan, to be complete by 30 September. Also of course that everyone will have to be flexible etc etc etc. So everyone is still waiting...

[Jabba]

So everyone is still waiting...

That's right on the money.

We are being told to plan for 25% budget cut-backs but the comprehensive spending review (inc LA grants from central govt) isn't due until October.

There's a fair amount of scaremongering going on and both sides are guilty of it.

Let's wait and see, eh?

[Berlin]

See, now that's the reasoning I don't understand.

If someone told you there's a chance you were going to be shot in a months time would you hang about?

So why wait and see? If you're on of the unfortunate ones, by waiting for the axe to fall you've got all of the other unfortunates to compete with.

If I were in a public sector position and there was the threat of cutbacks looming, my CV would be on the table of 500 other employers before the others in the office had even had the thought.

Why wait to be pushed? Jump!

C

[dizzyblonde]

well as OMD said on the BBC brekkie show t'other morning

Strikes, cuts and OMD...its like we've never been away

Welcome back to the 80s.

This has been on the cards for years, theres been an undercurrent of public uprising for as far as I can remember, let them get on with it, people needs their say, and if this is the way to do it, so be it.

We as a nation are already crippled by the pillocks at the top, so we may as well shout and bring it to its knees, its already on its way anyway.

Anyone got a giant plughole to wash this mess down??

[Whitty]

I am in an engineering union. With laws in place these days they are almost powerless, mainly since Maggies demise. Having said that they did need sorting out what with prats like Scargill.(ask your dad) I am only still a member in case I need help at work with any disciplinary action(ask anyone who works for First Bus) and they negotiate group pay deals rather than individual. Other than that its a waste of time in my opinion!

[dizzyblonde]

Having said that they did need sorting out what with prats like Scargill.(ask your dad) I am only still a member in case I need help at work with any disciplinary action(ask anyone who works for First Bus) and they negotiate group pay deals rather than individual. Other than that its a waste of time in my opinion!

LOL, ask yer dad? I'm old enough to remember the 80s..just;) And Peg was there being a gloomy goth!.
However a lot of folk on here these days are not so old, so all this Union palaver is quite a new concept.
I'm in the Union at work, but only because Willy Wonkas are complete baffoons, and couldn't organise a cake making contest in a chocolate factory, and the Village people(office workers and HR) are completely useless and I may as well do their job on top of mine!
Union is pretty much hand in hand with management which has been shown on many occasions, so pretty useless, but is useful when the company is defo wrong and I am right!
However, I've pretty much had enough of all the bull I've been watching in hospital of late, wether it be tax payments, org threads on being paid too much and demands to pay it back, BBC reports on anything from teaching to unions, to spending money on overseas aid and back again.

To top it all my midwife came today, and said that there were cuts coming there way, now they're already understaffed, not enough of them, underpaid etc etc ...so where the hell do they make cuts? A very very dangerous idea to be playing with in this particular front line area of the NHS

SO let them get on with it, no good having a nice happy debate, and not getting a point across, may as well go in hard and shout. Only way to get a public say. My money and your money is slowly getting taken away, and I'd prefer my family to have it, than some pillock at Westminster, who can't put it where it matters.

[yorkie_chris]

...and the Village people(office workers and HR) are completely useless and I may as well do their job on top of mine!...

Just as an aside, interesting to note how absolutely anyone on any shop floor, anywhere, knows far more than than the management about the managements job...

[yorkie_chris]

My money and your money is slowly getting taken away, and I'd prefer my family to have it, than some pillock at Westminster, who can't put it where it matters.

This lot are trying to clear up the mess brought about by new labour and associates who managed to stealth tax everything and still spend more besides?

I don't think bringing anything "to its knees" or washing anything down a plughole will help. Unless you are proposing some sort of revolution led by the masses to bring living standards back to the level of the 1880s instead?

[dizzyblonde]

Just as an aside, interesting to note how absolutely anyone on any shop floor, anywhere, knows far more than than the management about the managements job...

Isn't it so. Monsieur Carnivore could write a book on it!

This lot are trying to clear up the mess brought about by new labour and associates who managed to stealth tax everything and still spend more besides?

I don't think bringing anything "to its knees" or washing anything down a plughole will help. Unless you are proposing some sort of revolution led by the masses to bring living standards back to the level of the 1880s instead?

They may think they are trying to clear it up, but they're making a right b&lls of it as far as Mrs Joe Bloggs here is concerned.
As for the rest, when you own your home, work yer knackers off, have kids etc, you kinda get a very cynical view on this sort of subject, and IMO rightly so too.
At the moment Chris you are in a boat that you should count yourself lucky to be in, live with the olds, don't have a PAYE job, don't pay tax, utility bills, don't have kids, have a string free life
On the flip side(as an example) you could be one of those thats had a proper good wage for a few ye.ars paid everything you've been asked, but doesn't have that now, and is hoping and praying you don't get a tax letter with bad news, when you have a new family to feed.

These people don't particularly like what is portrayed on the little box in the corner of the room. It frightens them(is it overhyped hysteria, who knows)
Would you rather they keep their gob shut and pay through the nose in one way shape or form, or actually have someone shout for their corner....'oi Cameron...NOOOOOO!!':confused:

I'm not saying its the right thing to do...but what the hell would you suggest? At the moment(I'm assuming) all this extreme cutting, affects me and mine, a lot more than yourself personally, I very much doubt your folks feel happy about whats going on either, or any other hard working, tax paying family, with not a lot to throw around.

[MisterTommyH]

"There's going to be Civil Unrest" - My A*SE

Having been a public and private sector employees I know that there are both hard working / dedicated people in both, and jobsworths in both.

What I resent is the fact that the union leaders seem to think the public sector jobs should be protected. There's an economic downturn and cuts have to be made in both sectors. And the private sector has been suffering from public sector cuts for a long time (cuts in affordable house building, school building etc).

Not saying anyone has to like it, but no one has the right to demand a job when theres not the need for the job, or as is this case here, the money to pay for it.

BTW? Haven't public sector jobs soared under the previous government - So really we're just returning to the status quo?

[EssexDave]

That really is ridiculous. Times like this, when its Govt money if they are making cuts all should lose their bonuses.


You'll find this is all based on current contracts and pay deals and what can (legally) be done.

Our management received a bonus this year as they were part of a different pay deal, however this has now gone in line with the rest of the cuts.

[embee]

It's amazing how quickly everything has become "the Government's" fault, like they've been in power for the last 13 years.

The deficit has to be reduced, but that's only the tip of the iceberg, it's just slowing down how much worse the debt is getting, £1.4 trillion by the end of this parliament. That's nearly £25k per person, each and every one of us. The irresponsible incompetents who got us into this situation should be shot (firm but fair).

Everyone wants everything done and provided, but we haven't got the money, end of. Even if the economy was in better shape and tax takes were higher, we'd still need to cut spend. The Public Sector is way too big, it's been a job creation scheme for way too long. Those Union monkeys talk as though there's some God-given right that their members should have jobs paid for by "the Government", like there's some bottomless pit full of money that they're sitting on.

There was some numbskull on radio 2 today suggesting the top 10% wealth owners should have 20% of their wealth confiscated which would write off the debt. Stalin would have been proud of that one. I thnk it's nutter season come early.

.....and breathe.............

[svdemon]

Britains economy is clearly booming, we can afford a £12,000,000 elton john lookalike to come and wave at people.

[the_lone_wolf]

It's amazing how quickly everything has become "the Government's" fault, like they've been in power for the last 13 years.

That 13 years just nipped by didn't it? Barely got over the mess Maggie caused...;)

[yorkie_chris]

Would you rather they keep their gob shut and pay through the nose in one way shape or form, or actually have someone shout for their corner....'oi Cameron...NOOOOOO!!':confused:

"Their" corner?

The jobs ********ed thanks to his Tonyness and Gordie making a balls up of it, who was shouting then? That's when you were getting skinned, that's what you're paying for now.

So, somebody else spent beyond their means, now you want someone to say "OI, NOOO" to someone who's trying to fix the problems they've taken on?
Don't kid yourself, these union communists aren't fighting for you, they're fighting for their own little kingdoms, their own agendas.

[yorkie_chris]

I'm not saying its the right thing to do...but what the hell would you suggest? At the moment(I'm assuming) all this extreme cutting, affects me and mine, a lot more than yourself personally, I very much doubt your folks feel happy about whats going on either, or any other hard working, tax paying family, with not a lot to throw around.

Why does it affect you? You don't work for the government... would you prefer His Tonyness was still spending more of your money than you've got, putting you into debt?

Fairly sure any hard working, tax paying family wants to see their hard earned spent intelligently. You haven't got it to throw around, you want someone else to throw it around for you?

I'm for a cut in government spending. They don't have it, they can't spend it. There is NO other option. Times will be hard, no other way around it.

[punyXpress]

You'll find this is all based on current contracts and pay deals and what can (legally) be done.

Great Britain plc is ( comprehensively ) On that basis alone all bets are off, and ALL contracts with an element of bonus should be scrapped.

That includes the departed MPs, Council executives who have been awarded huge bonuses and severance pay by their mates, and all directors off companies.
Forgotten anyone - oh yes, our friends The Bankers.
The ONLY exception to this should be workers paid less that £20k pa.
Some unfaieness will arise, but that's nowt compared to the highwayrobbery of ever increasing Council Tax bills and other ' stealth ' taxes.
Gordon's ploy of creatingthousands of ' non-jobs ' didn't even win him the election. More of our money down the drain.

[yorkie_chris]

and all directors off companies.

All directors of companies owned by the government I hope you mean!

[sam anon]

I've not read all the replies, but I think public sector employment and the benefits some receive is generally hugely inflated.

I'm sure many government departments, councils etc could lose a lot of staff and still operate at the same productivity level.

[arc123]

Don't kid yourself, these union communists aren't fighting for you, they're fighting for their own little kingdoms, their own agendas.

I'd be interested to hear your views on what communism means? I cannot place your political standing either - care to elaborate?

[Ed]

If someone told you there's a chance you were going to be shot in a months time would you hang about?



Yes I would hang about, particularly if I had unfair dismissal protection and 20 years in the pension scheme. It also assumes that there is another job to go to, not easy for many, and that the voluntary severance scheme is acceptable. I know of one local authority which is saying that they can pay VS, but they can't afford the pay in lieu of notice, and that the VS scheme is conditional on people going now, and not working their notice. So people are expected to lose what is often a very substantial entitlement.

I don't think anyione argues about the need to save money, but it's the way it's being done that's causing the problems. Don't you think that by causing this fear, the government is hoping that people will jump, so reducing the number of people they have to make redundant? - and therefore the polical fallout?

[simesb]

but it's the way it's being done that's causing the problems.

I think they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they made cuts without consultation they would be accused of acting in a high-handed manner without concern for the little people. If they consult, as they are doing, they are accused of spreading fear through the little people.

[arc123]

I can't quite believe so many people buy into the 'public v private' argument - divide and conquer seems to be the objective and as already pointed out on this thread by Ed, has already worked.

waaa waaa waaa - sack the lazy, good for nothing public sector ba*tards is all i'm hearing from 90% of this thread. The rationale being that we have no money so we have to cut public spending.

I try to take a step back and ask why we have no money? £20 billion on illegal wars. £850 billion on bank bailouts. And thats just a starting point.

Anybody that believes this current government would have done anything different given the opportunity is a long way off the mark. New Labour/Conservatives/coalitions - whoever - it makes no odds. We're heading for the same outcome no matter which puppet government is seen to be ruling us.

And how does unions standing up for workers rights equate to "unions governing us" as has been stated more than once in this thread? If workers do not vote (either in a ballot, or with their feet by turning up for strike action), they are toothless. Individual unions are pretty much toothless as it is, hence the attempt at joining forces.

Just because we get to vote - does that mean it is a democracy?

I will definitely be supporting the unions - as it is the only way that the individuals’ voice will count for anything. It's about time the people of this country stood up for ourselves - a time where the government should represent us, rather than the multi-national corporateocracy we live in. I don't have to support everything that the unions believe in - but it is a benefit to me to stand with them (and I hope more people see this perspective.)

So - if the government/this country/USA/Greece/Iceland etc etc etc have no money - where has it gone? Money does not simply disappear - it merely changes hands.

[alexh]

I dont get what the argument is.....

I work for a big goverment contractor, The particular contract I work on is due to be re-newed in the next couple of years except the government cannot afford the current contract so they've reduced the level of funding our contract receives. My company has approx 400 people working on this contract.

To meet the new level of funding the company put everyone at risk of redundancy made them re-apply for the same (but new) jobs leaving 30% to be made redundant.... And yes most of these had families & mortgages just like everyone else in this country.

Sh*t happens, live with it.

The countrys defecit is around 85% of its actual worth, Goverment departments need to look at value for money and the efficiency of each department (without spending £250K on an options study to save £10K!), And it should start with the non jobs which end in the word 'Officer' or 'Co-ordinator'!

Its a bitter pill to swallow, but the nations needs to take its medicine!

And as for the Unions, nothing against them, and theres nothing wrong with having a focal point to represent a group, afterall we live in a democracy. But this militant attitude where the action people take is Strikes?! throwing toys out the pram and generally having tantrums, well it just gets tax payers backs up and its not productive in any way, shape or form.

As for the post above Dont start bringing illegal wars into this arguement it does not justify why we shouldnt cut public sector jobs!

And yes the right to vote and voting does mean a Democracy!

[the_lone_wolf]

waaa waaa waaa - sack the lazy, good for nothing public sector ba*tards is all i'm hearing from 90% of this thread.

And that's a bad thing?

Surely it's better to sack the lazy good for nothing ones leaving the ones who actually work for a living?

And it seems most of the "waaa waaa waaa" is coming from the unions who realise they're about to enjoy the stark reality that more than a decade of unchecked public spending brings...

;)

[arc123]

Quote:
Originally Posted by arc123 http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2370515#post2370515)
waaa waaa waaa - sack the lazy, good for nothing public sector ba*tards is all i'm hearing from 90% of this thread.

And that's a bad thing?

Surely it's better to sack the lazy good for nothing ones leaving the ones who actually work for a living?I think you may have missed the irony in what I wrote.

And it seems most of the "waaa waaa waaa" is coming from the unions who realise they're about to enjoy the stark reality that more than a decade of unchecked public spending brings...Well you'd hope so as well wouldn't you? That's is the job of the union. Not sure what you mean by this?

[arc123]

As for the post above Dont start bringing illegal wars into this arguement it does not justify why we shouldnt cut public sector jobs!

So what is the justification for cutting public sector jobs then? lack of productivity? (evidenced, not inferred). Or lack of money?

[alexh]

So what is the justification for cutting public sector jobs then? lack of productivity? (evidenced, not inferred). Or lack of money?

Lack of money or not, The government is wasting money on many public services, Its called efficiency.

If we take a look at the 'illegal war' (opinion as to right or wrong aside, which is not for this thread) and the efficiency of the money used...... Well I dont think you could cut anymore funds if you tried!

And also while were on this subject, Labour created many nonsense jobs, took us into this war and generally f*cked the country sideways.... Lib/Con are simply trying to clear the mess up!

[the_lone_wolf]

Well you'd hope so as well wouldn't you? That's is the job of the union. Not sure what you mean by this?How can you support them when you fail/refuse to grasp the problem?

Have you considered running for union leader, you seem to fit the profile they seek...

[arc123]

Lack of money or not, The government is wasting money on many public services, Its called efficiency. And your evidence of this? it would actually be called inefficiency if it is wasted money btw. And the money spent on wars/bank bailouts should absolutely be discussed where efficiencies are being discussed.

Well I dont think you could cut anymore funds if you tried! I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.

[arc123]

How can you support them when you fail/refuse to grasp the problem?

Ok then genius, for the under-educated here, explain to me the problem if you would be so kind....

For me, the issue is that it is necessary to cut the deficit because we are, by all measures, a bankrupt country (company). Personally, I would look for more radical measures than simply cutting costs... However, from your input thus far, it seems that you are incapable from thinking that little bit further. No shame in that my friend, you fit in well.

[alexh]

And your evidence of this? it would actually be called inefficiency if it is wasted money btw. And the money spent on wars/bank bailouts should absolutely be discussed where efficiencies are being discussed.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.

Im talking about using public funds efficiently... not inefficiently.....btw

Wars = Right/wrong, But Is the budget being used efficiently (or inefficiently).... Yes, In-fact they need more money.

Banks = Wrong on so many different levels, But right, if they didnt bail them out most of us would be up sh*t creek without a paddle!

Spending £55k on a stop smoking co-ordinator or £35k on a Tree officer or £35k on an area rehabilitation officer................

[the_lone_wolf]

Ok then genius, for the under-educated here, explain to me the problem if you would be so kind....

For me, the issue is that it is necessary to cut the deficit because we are, by all measures, a bankrupt country (company). Personally, I would look for more radical measures than simply cutting costs... However, from your input thus far, it seems that you are incapable from thinking that little bit further. No shame in that my friend, you fit in well.

Save your handbags for the picket lines dude...:smt043

Frankly I think not spending money you don't have is a great way to save some cash, if we're to preserve the ridiculously wasteful levels of spending demonstrated over the last 13 years how do you suggest the country provides the money to do it?:rolleyes:

[alexh]

for the under-educated here :smt109 Acceptance!

[Bri w]

ok, let's stand the argument on its head. Lets carry on with the current level of spending, and just how should it be funded?

1)I suppose the money could always be got from the banks, who are now making money again - in theory fabulous but what would that do to those banks = crippled, failing again and in need of a bailout.

2)Well tax could always be increased to a silly amount to fund it...mmm, everyone has less money so unions put in for big pay rises = crippled industry, or what's left of it.

3)Cut public sector pay by 30% so everyone keeps their jobs...mmm, see 2 above.

The harsh reality is expenditure exceeds income by an amount that isn't serviceable.

anyway, I guess our own little straw poll suggests what people feel about it all.

[simesb]

Personally, I would look for more radical measures than simply cutting costs...

Would that be what the Americans call a 'fire sale'?

Spending £55k on a stop smoking co-ordinator or £35k on a Tree officer or £35k on an area rehabilitation officer................

You do realise that your 3 examples of wasteful spending can actually save more money than they cost?

[the_lone_wolf]

The harsh reality is expenditure exceeds income by an amount that isn't serviceable.
Ding ding ding... We have a winner!!:cool:
anyway, I guess our own little straw poll suggests what people feel about it all.
Interesting that it almost exactly mirrors the FT poll results for the general public... Whereas other polls on the org have not...

[alexh]

You do realise that your 3 examples of wasteful spending can actually save more money than they cost?

Please enlighten me, I understand the arguement regarding the Stop smoking co-ordinator, but the other 2?

At the end of the day are they neccesary?

[Bri w]

Ding ding ding... We have a winner!!:cool:


I thank you ;)

As to our poll mirroring the FT poll. There's a decent cross section of society on here. Whereas if you polled the union members of an affected union it wouldn't mirror it at all.

We have a vested interest in the success of GB Plc, whereas the union members have a vested interest in paying their mortgage.

[simesb]

Please enlighten me, I understand the arguement regarding the Stop smoking co-ordinator, but the other 2?

At the end of the day are they neccesary?

How much do you think it costs the council if one of their trees falls across a road? Or onto a car? Or onto a person? Emergency call out charges, loss of revenue for local businesses, road/car/person repairs, &c, &c. More or less than £35k?

Necessary? No. Good forward planning? Probably (unless you like to gamble with god :D)

[the_lone_wolf]

We have a vested interest in the success of GB Plc, whereas the union members have a vested interest in paying their mortgage.
Very true, but our election night poll was a fair step from the results iirc, just a passing thought:)

[arc123]

We have a vested interest in the success of GB Plc

Of course we do - how much input to we get to the direction that UK PLC takes?

[Bri w]

Very true, but our election night poll was a fair step from the results iirc, just a passing thought:)

Would a bike site have a different age demographic?

The election poll was more about ideologies than economics(?). The simple matter of expenditure and income is easier to understand.

anyway stuff the unions, long live capitalism and keep the workers down ;)

[the_lone_wolf]

anyway stuff the unions, long live capitalism and keep the workers down ;)
Bring back Maggie and the golden years!!! ;):-dd

[arc123]

Frankly I think not spending money you don't have is a great way to save some cash, if we're to preserve the ridiculously wasteful levels of spending demonstrated over the last 13 years how do you suggest the country provides the money to do it?:rolleyes:

I haven't once said we should 'preserve the ridiculously wasteful levels of spending demonstrated over the last 13 years'... dude.

[Bri w]

Of course we do - how much input to we get to the direction that UK PLC takes?

er, if you going to quote someone quote the whole sentence. Read it, and use it in the context it was originally written. Taking part of it and adding your own spin ... makes for a weak argument.

[Bri w]

Bring back Maggie and the golden years!!! ;):-dd

You're a very naughty boy!







What a damn fine idea:rolleyes:

[the_lone_wolf]

I haven't once said we should 'preserve the ridiculously wasteful levels of spending demonstrated over the last 13 years'... dude.

So you're all for the cuts then?

Jolly good, I knew you'd sense eventually:thumbsup:

[Jabba]

Spending £55k on a stop smoking co-ordinator or £35k on a Tree officer or £35k on an area rehabilitation officer................

Just few points to help the discussions:

1. Many of the roles that local authorities do are statutory, i.e. central government makes legistion and then requires local authorities to do the work. The smoking legislation is a case in point.

2. Local authorities employ some of the poorest-paid people in the country. Many are on the minimum wage and yet do important work, e.g. those working in care homes, social services, etc. The law doesn't allow the cutting of wages of many council staff.

3. When times are hard demand for Council service and draws on resources increases. Housing/Council Tax Benefits for example.

My own department has had 10% year-on-year funding cuts for the last three years and has lost staff as a result. We are now being told to prepare for 25% cuts. Demand for our services continues to increase year-on-year and all the work we do is statutory.

[arc123]

So you're all for the cuts then?

Jolly good, I knew you'd sense eventually:thumbsup:

sense what?

All for what cuts? 'The' cuts is quite broad really isn't it?

[arc123]

er, if you going to quote someone quote the whole sentence. Read it, and use it in the context it was originally written. Taking part of it and adding your own spin ... makes for a weak argument.

Not sure how I added any spin. I wanted to specifically question that part of your sentence (not spin it) - if you don't want to answer the question thats no problem, just makes for a week arguement.

[the_lone_wolf]

All for what cuts? 'The' cuts is quite broad really isn't it?

Might want to calibrate your sarcasm meter there...:rolleyes:

[MisterTommyH]

Not sure how I added any spin. I wanted to specifically question that part of your sentence (not spin it) - if you don't want to answer the question thats no problem, just makes for a week arguement.

You think you can keep this going all week?

[yorkie_chris]

How much do you think it costs the council if one of their trees falls across a road? Or onto a car? Or onto a person? Emergency call out charges, loss of revenue for local businesses, road/car/person repairs, &c, &c. More or less than £35k?

Necessary? No. Good forward planning? Probably (unless you like to gamble with god :D)

I can think of a few people in my local council paid some mental wages for shuffling paper and justifying their own little existence. The non-job is alive and well!

[MisterTommyH]

Seems to me that public and private have been through the same - Threat of redundancies, doubled workloads etc.

But the private ones just grin and bear it, get on with the job while they have one, look for another if they feel they can, and if they are made redundant rely on their mortgage protection, and any help they can get i.e. JSA etc.

The public ones (or at least the ones who get the publicity) don't get on with their job (i.e. strike), seem to think that there is no where else they could possibly work and expect the state to give them another job (although the country would save a lot of money having 20% of it's work force on dole rather than salaries).

[yorkie_chris]

They should just pick names out of a hat for who goes from the top 50% of government employed earners.

It wouldn't be long at all before the chain of command got sorted out, plenty of them "up there" to take over.

Same with NHS, on a massive wage... "hello mate, do you actually fix people?... No... OK... name in the hat!"

Perfectly fair system that leaves front line intact :)

[simesb]

Same with NHS, on a massive wage... "hello mate, do you actually fix people?... No... OK... name in the hat!"

Perfectly fair system that leaves front line intact :)

Since over 50% of people in hospital are there because the NHS put them there, I'd say keep the administrators and ditch the doctors - save a wad of cash.

[yorkie_chris]

Lol, could go on for hours about the NHS. Silly ideas years back removing personal responsibility for anything.

My Mother would tell you about how it used to be run by Matron with a rod of iron... set routines of work... visitors, unnecessary movement or open windows absolutely forbidden during times when dressings were being changed. No MRSA then.

[the_lone_wolf]

Same with NHS, on a massive wage... "hello mate, do you actually fix people?... No... OK... name in the hat!"

Except that that person may actually organise 10,000 workers who do fix people so that they save the public purse 10x his salary...