How do you balance the throttle bodies on a K8?

[Nobbylad]

Haynes manual says you need a special Suzuki tool, is there another way?

[rictus01]

yeah you can make a home balancer, plenty of examples on the net, but I wouldn't trust there accuracy, see if someone local has a set you can borrow for a beer or two.

Cheers Mark.

[Nobbylad]

Hmmm...manual says it needs to be done with the SDS (Suzuki Diagnostic Scanner) so that you can set the idle speed control (ISC) value between the two cylinders.

After some searching, you can get a tester that looks like it will do this for £140 here (http://www.bikersdiscountstore.co.uk/diagnostic-equipment/healtech-electronics/healtech-electronics-suzuki-obd-f-i-diagnostic-tool-pd-51.php).

Is this techno tomfoolery or necessary kit?

Normally the dealer would do this as part of the servicing whenever they check the valves etc, however if you're doing servicing yourself, might be worth having?

Thoughts?

[Bibio]

yes you do really need the gizmo box as you have to lock the throttle bodies and lock the rpm.

i tried to do it to my k8 without it and it made no bit of difference to the vacuum gauges. i also found out that you dont adjust the balance screw but adjust the 2 little air screws instead.

i think the box your looking at is a re branded chineese one that you can get direct for £90.

http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/371889279-freeshipping-2010-suzuki-motorcycle-diagnostic-tool-wholesalers.html

[Nobbylad]

Hmmm...58 squid delivered....that's not bad considering local dealer wants £60 to balance them

[Bibio]

think i'll take a little gamble with one. forgot the price was in $$

[Nobbylad]

I just ordered one, they'll post Monday and said it would take 15 days. I'll report on here once it arrives.

[Nobbylad]

Oooh...my goodies have arrived...not bad considering I only ordered them less than 2 weeks ago!

[Speedy]

Have you tried it yet??

Seems like an interesting piece of kit!!

[Nobbylad]

Not yet, hopefully over the weekend

[pmodern]

Also interested in the results. Was going to check mine over the weekend but noticed your thread re the K8. What exactly is this bit of kit doing? Usually just a linkage between the bodies needs adjusting to balance bodies? I guess all the electrickery gets in the way on the K7 onward?

[maxinc]

I'm following this thread with great interest.

[Nobbylad]

Haven't had chance to use it yet, however all you get is a small black box and some leads to connect it to the bike and then the p.c. to download info. The instructions are sparse/non-existent. The software doesn't appear to cater for the SV, however the seller has assured me that once I plug the box in after using it on the bike, it will register properly and give the necessary readings.

Haven't had chance to play with it properly but hope to by/at the coming weekend.

[maxinc]

I know the tool is needed to change the idle speed which seems to be adjusted automatically on K7 > models but I wonder if you need to adjust the idle speed at all if only minor throttle body sync is needed?

[Nobbylad]

OK - quick update...failed on the 1st attempt as I can't find where the SDS plug is to connect the tool.

Service manual shows it here (behind the right hand side frame panel), but I can't find anything that will connect to the 4-pin plug I have (on either side of the bike). I was expecting it to be a plug with a rubber cap on, a bit like the dealer mode activation connector under the pillion seat.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/SV650SDSpluglocation.jpg

Anyone any ideas where this elusive connector is?

(BTW - the device I bought comes with a nifty connector with some wire and a toggle switch on it or activating dealer mode....in case you lose the small bit of wire you've been using so far to show up fault codes ;) )

[Nobbylad]

Arrrrgh...funksters!

I think it's under the pillion seat, right next to the dealer mode activation connector...however I got too fed up fettling in the dark to look for it!

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/sv650connectors.jpg

(really need a garage)

[pmodern]

Welcome to come round and use my garage of an evening (Chester) At least I would get to see the gizmo in action then ;-)

[Bibio]

nobby lad the sds connector is right next to the dsm it has a black plastic cap over it. the dsm has a rubber cap. i'm pretty sure that both are 6 pin, i could be wrong. if that picture is correct then what they are calling the sds is the same as the dsm and it has 6 pins but 2 are blank.

update.. according to the manual the SDS is the same connector as the DSM.

i have the extended service manual in pdf for the K7 onwards if you want me to email it to you?

[Nobbylad]

Hi Bibio - I downloaded the extended service manual last night to get the pic above. It looks like the connector they sent with the tool is incorrect. It is only 4 pin.

The pic below shows the tool for putting the bike into dealer mode (6-pin with toggle switch at the other end) and the 4-pin plug that connects to the device (which in turn connects to the p.c.).

[Nobbylad]

For those following this thread with interest, DON'T go near the link Bibio posted (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/371889279-freeshipping-2010-suzuki-motorcycle-diagnostic-tool-wholesalers.html) earlier, as it's not what we need. I'm still in discussions with them, but as of now, they haven't given me what I wanted. There's hope yet, but if anyone wanted to get one sooner rather than later, you're better off going here by the looks of things...http://www.bikersdiscountstore.co.uk/diagnostic-equipment/healtech-electronics/healtech-electronics-suzuki-obd-f-i-diagnostic-tool-pd-51.php

[Bibio]

hhhhmmmm not good. i feel bad now :-(

[Nobbylad]

Don't be daft mate, the ad reads like it'll do what I wanted, but unfortunately it doesn't. I'll either get a refund or they'll send me another piece of kit that does it. I'll probably just go for the refund then get the OBD tool for a bit more.

[Bibio]

suppose its trial and error. looks like the other one is the one to go for. i've had my fill of crap chinese stuff of late. not to mention british made stuff as well.

[maxinc]

To answer my own questions, here's an extract from the FAQ on the Healtec Electronic OBD Tool.

Will the ODB tool allow you to properly sync the throttle bodies on a 2007+ Suzuki that otherwise requires a special computer tool ?
Yes. Before you start to sync the throttle bodies, you need to lock the ISC (Idle Speed Control) valve. This can be done by our OBD Tool. Select the "Active Test" tab and turn the "ISC air volume control" to ON. Note that the engine must be running and the coolant temp should be between 70C/158F and 100C/212F.
After the sync, stop the engine, clear any DTCs and then hit the "ISC learned value reset" button. Disconnect the tool and turn ignition Off. Wait at least 10 seconds. Turn ignition On and start the engine. Let it idle for 1 minute.

So I guess, you do need the tool to adjust the throttle body on K7+ models. I wonder if this tool can be adapted for other bikes with a different software.

[Nobbylad]

I've taken the plunge and gone for the Healtech tool here (http://www.bikersdiscountstore.co.uk/diagnostic-equipment/healtech-electronics/healtech-electronics-suzuki-obd-f-i-diagnostic-tool-pd-51.php). The other tool from China was a pile of proverbial and I've opted for a refund.

Due to receive the Healtech tool next week so all being well, should be balancing the throttle bodies a week on Saturday.

[Bibio]

i'm looking forward to this. if it works i'm going to splash the cash i think as its around £60 for a stealer to do it.

nobby if you could be so kind to when you get it, can you do a nice write up.

[Nobbylad]

Sure will. If it works, I'm going to look at 'lending' it to people for a small fee, which would help pay for the thing as well as save people a fortune on stealer fees. You'll need vacuum gauges as well for the actual balancing, all this does is allow you to lock the ISC valve.

I asked Marriotts in Birkenhead (where I bought the bike from) and they said 3-4hrs to do it! At £40+ p/h, I don't think so! He basically said I'd be better off spending the money buying the OBD tool and doing it myself.

[Bibio]

3-4hrs, wtf are they on crack or something. 1hr max.

i dont know if you have read but i seen a little snippet somewhere (cant remember now) that said you might have to clean the screws as they get gummed up, to get a proper ballance.

[SV650Racer]

i'm looking forward to this. if it works i'm going to splash the cash i think as its around £60 for a stealer to do it.

nobby if you could be so kind to when you get it, can you do a nice write up.

Yeah the general charge to a ****somer (sorry had to get that in there somewhere LOL) is 0.5hr to 1 hour.

[yorkie_chris]

I tell you what would be nice to know is how this tool Nobby's bought compares to the OEM SDS tool.

(#hinthint Sarah# :-P)

[SV650Racer]

Richard one of our techs says it actually looks very similar, more like they have copied the SDS. Im not aware though whether the SDS has anymore functions or not as I dont personally use the SDS and no one here has used the healtech version.

The SDS though is very expensive for us to buy so handy to know about the healtech version.

[Nobbylad]

Yeah the general charge to a ****somer (sorry had to get that in there somewhere LOL) is 0.5hr to 1 hour.

I tell you what would be nice to know is how this tool Nobby's bought compares to the OEM SDS tool.

(#hinthint Sarah# :-P)

To be honest, I had considered pm'ing Sarah to ask about the process etc. From what I've read on the net and in the Dealer service manual, you can't accurately balance the TB's without setting the ISC and you can only do that with a suitable ODB/OEM SDS tool.

The dealer was being quite open saying it's a PITA and that he wouldn't mind doing stuff like this to his own bike on a weekend, however to do it in the workshop, you're paying for hourly rate etc. I appreciate the bike has to be in a certain temperature range to do the check/balance properly, however anything over 1-2hrs is a urine extraction.

The ODB tool I've bought should deffo do the job and if others want to 'borrow' it for some beer tokens, everyone's a winner. Except of course for the dealers who won't be getting the service work. That said, I am not knocking all dealers etc and I'm quite happy learning how to service my bike with the caveat/understanding that I may miss something or screw it up. However, I'm happy taking the risk, whereas others would quite rightly prefer to pay their money for the perceived reassurance of a dealer doing the work. Again, not all dealers are out to rip you off/deliver poor service, however not all dealers will give you a full, proper service and charge you only what is required.

I know this discussion is done to death on here and probably every other bike forum, but I have had 1st hand experience of dealers not doing all the service checks and also smaller, independent bike shops not checking stuff properly when you've specifically asked them to. So, I'm quite happy doing most stuff myself and learning from others as well as I go along. You pays your money, you takes your chances!

[yorkie_chris]

I'd be interested in having a mess around with this tool, if it's as good as the site suggests then I'll buy one.

[Nobbylad]

Richard one of our techs says it actually looks very similar, more like they have copied the SDS. Im not aware though whether the SDS has anymore functions or not as I dont personally use the SDS and no one here has used the healtech version.

The SDS though is very expensive for us to buy so handy to know about the healtech version.

I should try and sell you the Chinese carp tool that I originally bought....which basically amounts to a plug that fits over the dealer service plug and has a switch at the other end which effectively is the same as the inch of wire most people use to put the bike into dealer mode :cool:

My belief is the Healtech tool does exactly the same as the SDS, including the ABS functions, however if it only helps with the ISC setting, it's still worth the money in my eyes.

Isn't the SDS tool around £500-700 or summat daft like that? :confused:

[Nobbylad]

I'd be interested in having a mess around with this tool, if it's as good as the site suggests then I'll buy one.

Why? You could borrow mine for a tenner or some suspension twiddling!

[Nobbylad]

OK - my gadget has arrived, who is local to me that can lend me a carbtune?

[Nobbylad]

Update time!

Used the tool today to successfully balance the throttle bodies. Quite straightforward really.

Get the bike up to temp (80c) using the tool to monitor engine temp. Take off the airbox, set the ISC control valve to ON, adjust throttle body air screws until balanced, reset the ISC value, turn off, leave for a few mins then idle for a minute or so.

Looks like the tool has loads of scope for monitoring/diagnostics, with real time graphing and the ability to save data etc. Plus is nifty for clearing faults.

Still not sure it's worth £150 for the average punter, but if it costs that for a dealer to do it, maybe it's worth it.

[Nobbylad]

Bike is much smoother after balancing. I was getting loads of vibrations recently to the point where I was getting pins and needles after 20mins riding. Very smooth now.

Just wondering if there's any other way to do the balancing without the tool?

I think all it does is negate the idle speed control valve, so would disconnecting it from the bike before doing the synchronisation work?

[Bibio]

cool, so it works. might just have to invest in one :-)

i think the tool locks the valve so it cant self adjust itself. i think disconnecting it would stop the bike from running. could be wrong though.

i take it you took the airbox lid off and not the whole airbox?

how much was the throttle bodies out by?

[maxinc]

how much was the throttle bodies out by?

And, if I may add, after what sort of mileage?

[Nobbylad]

I took the whole airbox off, but then noticed in the manual it says something along the lines of "disconnect the sensors from the airbox, then reconnect them to the wiring loom". It didn't really seem to make sense, but if you don't take the airbox off, I think you'll struggle to access the adjustment screws.

It was hard to tell how far out they were at first, due to an ill-fitting tube on the 1st vacuum gauge I used. When I got a different gauge, the calibration scale was less detailed, but there was a definate difference.

EDIT: MaxInc - they've never been balanced, bike is an 08 with just on 31k on the clock.

[Bibio]

hhhmmm interesting. i thought that you would only have to adjust one of the screws in or out to bring the ballance in line with the other and since the back one is readily available then it would be that one.

think i'll order one, i like tools and electronic gadgets :-)

[Nobbylad]

Since messing around with both cylinder heads recently (fitting new stem seals and re-grinding the valves back in) and also taking recent delivery of Bibio's throttle body balancing extension tubes, I decided to check my TB's again.

First off, remove the airbox sensors (keeping them connected) and remove the airbox itself.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0907.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0911.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0909.jpg

Then get the fancy Dan OBD tool out and connect it to the dealer mode/ECU plug (pain in the arris as it could do with the wires being a bit longer).

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0908.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0910.jpg

Get the bike upto temp (88-100C), set the ISC control to ON (disabling the Idle Speed Control Switch), then balance away using a Carbtune.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0913.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/nobbylad/IMAG0914.jpg

To be honest, I'm really not sure the OBD tool does anything or that switching the ISC valve off actually makes a difference.

Whether the ISC was isolated or not, it seemed that the Carbtune was giving the same reading?

[Bibio]

funny i found the exact same thing nobby. but found that turning the throttle would turn the valve back on, well the OBD was telling me that so my conclusion is that the OBD is not shutting the control valve off or that the OBD is not needed as on or off it had the same reading.

[ThePone]

So do you need the fancy gadget or not? I have a K9 and set about balancing the throttle bodies this morning. All seems good but now after reading this thread I am wondering if it is gonna run like a dog next time I take it out because I didn't lock the idle speed???

[Bibio]

So do you need the fancy gadget or not? I have a K9 and set about balancing the throttle bodies this morning. All seems good but now after reading this thread I am wondering if it is gonna run like a dog next time I take it out because I didn't lock the idle speed???

how did you balance them?

if you used the butterfly screw they you have done it wrong. you need to use the vacuum screw on later SV's with twin spark.

and yes i have noticed recently that turning off the ICV does make a difference as the revs don't rise and fall as you adjust but if not turned off the ICV tries to keep setting its self.

[ThePone]

Damnit. Yes I adjusted the butterfly screw. Oh well I knew there would be more expense when I got a pointy. Maybe I should have kept my curvy!!!!

Looks like I'll be buying the tool for the job then!

Cheers for the info Bibio.

[Bibio]

shouldn't make that much of a difference but just to make sure try connecting the vacuum gauges again and see if there is a large leap from idle to around 7-8k. wind the throttle slowly when doing it. if one vacuum is a lot larger than the other then you might get problems.

good news is that you might just get the screw back to the original position or near dammit as they are marked with white paint from the factory.

ooohhhh and never ever touch the top screw and if you do then it's out with the verniers to get it back into position.

[ThePone]

Sorted screw back to where is was and all seems good!

So what is the going rate for hiring one of these OBD tools???

[Speedy]

Are we any further with this?

I want to do my TB's, but I would prefer to do them myself than take the bike to a dealer..........of which I don't have locally anymore.

From what I've read, the tool is needed to hold the ISC valve at a specific setting (half open) whilst TB adjustment is being done.

Otherwise, it keeps adjusting itself.....

Has anyone done this without the tool?

[Nobbylad]

Are we any further with this?

I want to do my TB's, but I would prefer to do them myself than take the bike to a dealer..........of which I don't have locally anymore.

From what I've read, the tool is needed to hold the ISC valve at a specific setting (half open) whilst TB adjustment is being done.

Otherwise, it keeps adjusting itself.....

Has anyone done this without the tool?

No... because you can't.

[Speedy]

Yeah, that was my thoughts.

Loads of people on other Suzuki forums are trying to figure out a "work-around" solution.

Think I'll have to bite the bullet and book the bike in somewhere.....which annoys me, because I'm more than capable of doing the job myself, but I can't justify the outlay of the Healtech and Vac guages for a job I will do maybe once or twice.

[Bibio]

Yeah, that was my thoughts.

Loads of people on other Suzuki forums are trying to figure out a "work-around" solution.

Think I'll have to bite the bullet and book the bike in somewhere.....which annoys me, because I'm more than capable of doing the job myself, but I can't justify the outlay of the Healtech and Vac guages for a job I will do maybe once or twice.

and this is where the steelers have got people over a barrel. £90 for a balance while the tools are £160 ish. if we could find out what its doing at the CPU end of things then making a pic to do just the one job would be easy enough. whoever works that out and makes a tool cheep enough is onto a winner.

[SV650Racer]

and this is where the steelers have got people over a barrel. £90 for a balance while the tools are £160 ish. if we could find out what its doing at the CPU end of things then making a pic to do just the one job would be easy enough. whoever works that out and makes a tool cheep enough is onto a winner.

£90 who quoted you that?. I guess people who do charge that give the rest of us a bad name.

:smt018

Mind you, your in Scotland..:p:cool:

[Speedy]

and this is where the steelers have got people over a barrel. £90 for a balance while the tools are £160 ish. if we could find out what its doing at the CPU end of things then making a pic to do just the one job would be easy enough. whoever works that out and makes a tool cheep enough is onto a winner.

Yes, we need someone with the SDS/Healtech/other diag.machine to go through the procedure for setting the ISC valve, then measure the voltage and/or current supply to the valve......


£90 who quoted you that?. I guess people who do charge that give the rest of us a bad name.

:smt018

Mind you, your in Scotland..:p:cool:

Mr Jordan, what do you charge for TB sync out of interest?

[Nobbylad]

Both Bibio and I have the Healtech.

[Bibio]

from what i can gather it locks it at a certain rev/open value by telling the brains to do so which i think is part of the service sub routine. i don't think you could just lock it down directly as it might just control other factors in the background. i do know it wont engage if the temperature value is out of range 80-99 and if it is it will either not engage or knock it off same goes for the revs. it would be fun if you could reverse engineer the coding to see what's going on.

ooohhh and i don't bother taking the air box off.

[SV650Racer]

Mr Jordan, what do you charge for TB sync out of interest?

Mrs Jordan:cool:

Between £27.50 and £45 dependant on how far out they are.

[Speedy]

Mrs Jordan:cool:

Between £27.50 and £45 dependant on how far out they are.

OOOPS!! You'd charge me double now for calling you a Mr!! :D

OK, well, I'll book it in at some point I think.

Bibio, interesting stuff. Especially as mine seems to be at it's most jerky/horrible when it's in the 80+ degree temp range.

Wonder if thats why they need setting at a higher than normal running temp.....

[Bibio]

it shouldn't be jerky m8. mine is smooth as silk no matter what temp. but i have been experimenting with the TPS as of late just out of curiosity and it's paid dividends :-)

[Speedy]

It's not outrageous but it's definitely not smooth, this is only when it's in the 80+ temp range.
Rest of the time, it's lovely.

[bs8c]

Do u need the Suzuki Diagnostic Scanner for earlier models? Like sv650 2004?

[Bibio]

Do u need the Suzuki Diagnostic Scanner for earlier models? Like sv650 2004?

no as you adjust balance by means of adjusting the butterflies.

the only reason you need to do this on twin sparks due to the auto idle as you have to lock the idle.

[bs8c]

Alright, thanks

[Corny Gizmo]

15 Months later - Thread Resurrection!!!!

My bike is currently at 22k and I dont think its ever been balanced.

Anyone lending these tools still? If so how do I pay/reimburse you :D

[Red ones]

FWIW I pad £40 10 months ago at 23,000 miles and it needed doing, but was only just out of tolerance.

[Fen Tiger]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271839330565&globalID=EBAY-GB

Is this the version which did not work? Has anyone bought this? Seems cheaper although have to take into account the potential import duty. The description looks to be a straight copy of the Healtech website!

[Corny Gizmo]

looks like the correct connection at least...

[Bibio]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271839330565&globalID=EBAY-GB

Is this the version which did not work? Has anyone bought this? Seems cheaper although have to take into account the potential import duty. The description looks to be a straight copy of the Healtech website!

import is now £15 before any charges so what you do is contact the seller and tell him you will buy one if they put £14.50 on the customs declaration ;) i do it all the time :cool: for the simple reason i dont mind paying duty one little bit but i dont like giving the PO £8 for pressing a few keys on a computer, if it was maybe £2 or so then fine but 8 fekin quid.. ermm no.

[Corny Gizmo]

Bibio, still need to do this, are you up for lending your tool out? id need the carb balancer too... id pay you of course.

If not I think ill just get my local Stealer to do for £60-£80 I think was the quote 0_0

[yorkie_chris]

No... because you can't.

If isolating the ISC doesn't do anything to the readings then what is the tool doing?

[sputnik]

I think Nobbylad was agreeing... you can't balance the (2008 onwards) TBs without the tool. But given that he said it in 2012, he may be past caring by now! :rolleyes: