hydrolocked engine grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[farquare]

Okay, some of you may have seen my other thread where my bike keeps being blowing over in the wind: http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=166806

Long story short the front cylinder filled with oil and i tried to start it.

The bike now runs, but not on the front cylinder. I've got spark, i've tried changing the plugs round too. There is visable pressure in the front cylinder as it will move a rag stuffed down the plug hole, carbs seen to be fuelling too.

I'm kinda down about the whole thing but before i decide to scrap the bike i would appreciate any tips or advice on what to do next.

Compression test?

or are there any other simple checks or procedures which would help me identify what's wrong?

[maviczap]

Doesn't sound good I'm afraid, as you might have bent a rod if it was hydraulically locked?

Can you turn the engine over with the back wheel on the paddock stand when its in gear?

Front plug clean & working?

[Gazzaleachie]

Hi,
To be fair its prob bent the conrod ive seen this a few times on vehicles i have worked on (mainly Buses and trucks) but wouldnt like to say this is the cause for it not running on that cylinder can you measure the height of the piston with the plug out and do the same on the good side?
Ive never really hand much to do with motorcyle engines but have rebuilt a fair few heavy goods.

Sorry not much help Gaz

[andrewsmith]

Doesn't sound good I'm afraid, as you might have bent a crank if it was hydraulically locked?

Can you turn the engine over with the back wheel on the paddock stand when its in gear?

Front plug clean & working?

I'm with mavi, sounds terminal (if everything else is tickety boo). You wouldn't be able to check for a bent crank without stripping the motor.

[husky03]

pm yorkie chris or rictus mate

[farquare]

i can understand bending a crank if the engine was running when fluid gets in, the bang in the good cylinder having massive opposite force on the other.
but would trying to start a bike with 1 clyinder full of oil have enough power to do damage?
the starter did not spin just engaged and stopped due to the resistance....

[andrewsmith]

i can understand bending a crank if the engine was running when fluid gets in, the bang in the good cylinder having massive opposite force on the other.
but would trying to start a bike with 1 clyinder full of oil have enough power to do damage?
the starter did not spin just engaged and stopped due to the resistance....

Sadly yes as engine oil is more dense and compresses less easily than petrol.
Engine oil would theoretically combust under very high pressure/ compression

[farquare]

i've pretty much resigned myself to the worst by now, looks like no biking for me this year.

thanks for the replies and suggestions.

[maviczap]

Sadly yes as engine oil is more dense and compresses less easily than petrol.
Engine oil would theoretically combust under very high pressure/ compression

Sorry I meant you'd bent a rod, not the crank in my first reply

Simple physics you can compress a gas, but not a liquid.

Hydraulic lock in a diesel is a bad thing, and not much better in a petrol.

[andrewsmith]

Sorry I meant you'd bent a rod, not the crank in my first reply

Simple physics you can compress a gas, but not a liquid.

Hydraulic lock in a diesel is a bad thing, and not much better in a petrol.

I thought a diesel would use lighter engine oils as fuel, or am I incorrect in thinking that.

Bent rod is slightly better than a crank.

[yorkie_chris]

Sadly yes as engine oil is more dense and compresses less easily than petrol.
Engine oil would theoretically combust under very high pressure/ compression

Doesn't matter, liquid is incompressible* whatever it is. It is just as bad when carb sticks and fills cylinder with petrol. Plus density is not related to compressibility.




*Don't be pedantic or daveprestons horse outside will kick you in de face

[yorkie_chris]

i've pretty much resigned myself to the worst by now, looks like no biking for me this year.

thanks for the replies and suggestions.

Clean the carb out. Oil is pretty sticky and can prevent fuel flow through small jets.

Take it you have tried cranking it with plug out to try clear it?

[andrewsmith]

Doesn't matter, liquid is incompressible* whatever it is. It is just as bad when carb sticks and fills cylinder with petrol. Plus density is not related to compressibility.

*Don't be pedantic or daveprestons horse outside will kick you in de face

No intention of being pedantic on this mate.

Is that the new name for the SV650?

[yorkie_chris]

I was waiting for some f***er to chime in with fact that liquids are to some minor extent compressible.

But anyway you made couple of points in that earlier post that were incorrect. I know you are trying to help but please do more research before stating things as fact.

[farquare]

Clean the carb out. Oil is pretty sticky and can prevent fuel flow through small jets.

Take it you have tried cranking it with plug out to try clear it?

yeah, thats how i got all the oil out the cylinder. I can physically see fuel droplets in the top of the front carb when i'm turning it over.
i have sprayed a bit of carb cleaner in the front carb, would you recommend stripping it down?

[yorkie_chris]

If there are no nasty noises and it seems to run ok (but on 1 pot) then it is likely all just fouled up. To strip carb would work, try just seal your hand against it and crank. Careful cos there is quite some suction.

Sounds daft but what happens with choke on?

[farquare]

If there are no nasty noises and it seems to run ok (but on 1 pot) then it is likely all just fouled up. To strip carb would work, try just seal your hand against it and crank. Careful cos there is quite some suction.

Sounds daft but what happens with choke on?
Perhaps a little ray of light.....

as above, no nasty noises or vibrations, it's just running on 1. I have experienced running on 1 a few years ago that i managed to narrow down to a spark plug failing under pressure, i've ruled that out this time by swapping plugs over and both plugs work in the rear cylinder.

you mean just put my palm over the front carb and crank?

with choke on the bike runs, idle is a bit low on full choke (but it's running on 1). With the rear plug disconnected the engine does change tone with choke on/off but won't fire on the front only.

[yorkie_chris]

so you saying it runs with rear plug disconnected?

[farquare]

no, sorry that last sentence should have read;

when cranking the engine with the rear plug disconnected, turning the choke on and off changes the engine tone but the engine does not fire

[-Ralph-]

We get some right bolox posted on these threads sometimes. How the f**k you can diagnose with certainty a bent con rod, 'cos a starter motor tried and failed to turn over a hydrolocked engine, completely f**~**g beats me!

It's had a shock, a bang and a fall, and it's been upside down and it's now firing on one cylinder. There are are loads of possibilities of what it could be, of which a bent con rod is just one, given what we know that's very unlikely!

Farquare, ignore everyone else on this thread except YC whilst he takes you through a process of elimination, and don't think about scrapping your bike just yet!

I know you are trying to help but please do more research before stating things as fact.

I'd say if you have to do research, don't post at all. The OP is perfectly capable of doing his own research, and posted the question because he wanted answers from someone who knows what they are talking about without having to research it.

[Gazzaleachie]

Sorry i only posted from past experiance i have and still have said con rod from engine which had oil in the cylinder and the starter bent that like it was made of cheese! But your right without having the bike in the flesh how can you diagnose the fault?

Cheers. Gaz

[ImplodedHamster]

just curious, would the starter motor even have enough power to bend it?

[maviczap]

We get some right bolox posted on these threads sometimes. How the f**k you can diagnose with certainty a bent con rod, 'cos a starter motor tried and failed to turn over a hydrolocked engine, completely f**~**g beats me!

Sorry Ralph but I don't remember reading that anyone had said with any certainty that the conrod had bet, most of said MAY have.

We were just going on the infomation provided by the OP and the title of the thread!

It is possible to bend a conrod buy turning the engine over if one cylinder is hydrolocked, Honda CBX1000 were prone to bending rods if the fuel tap was left in the on position, as it filled one or 2 cylinders with fuel. Staring the engine would result in bent conrods, as YC and myself correctly pointed out you cannot compress a liquid.

Honda cured this in later models by fitting an electric fuel tap.

Its difficult to diagnose from a distance, but its not all bollox.:p

[-Ralph-]

Sorry Ralph but I don't remember reading that anyone had said with any certainty that the conrod had bet, most of said MAY have.

Queue Roy Walker "You said 'might have', Andrew said..."

I'm with mavi, sounds terminal.

The OP then concluded

i've pretty much resigned myself to the worst by now, looks like no biking for me this year.

thanks for the replies and suggestions.

Nobody offered any other possibility. I'm not surprised the OP feared the worst, the thread reads like a conclusion to me too

Honda CBX1000

Its difficult to diagnose from a distance, but its not all bollox.:p

The CBX1000 was in inline six. It's most likely to have bent a con rod when the the hydrolocked cylinder was not the first in the firing order when the engine started, so the torque required to bend the con rod is most likely to have came from other cylinders firing before it, not from the starter motor. This is a twin and the OP has told us that the engine never fired, but stopped the starter motor immediately on him hitting the button. What's more the con rod connected to a 165cc cylinder in a 1000cc six, is probably going to be a lot lighter than the con rods in a 325cc per pot SV.

[yorkie_chris]

Compression test will tell for sure.

I am sticking with initial thought of oil in carb being problem.

[farquare]

Couldnt get a comp tester this morning, will try to clean the carbs this morning and see if that makes any difference then venturee out later to try and get a comp tester.
Any particular bits of the carb i'd need to pay attention to?
Thanks for all the suggestions folks.

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[yorkie_chris]

Pilot jet and air jets.

You got compressor? Just blow through holes, no need to take off bike just be careful because you might end up wearing some petrol

[husky03]

let me know if you want to borrow a set of carbs to switch over bud and you can come over and get them

h.

[farquare]

cheers husky - appreciated, I'll get a comp tester first and see what the readings are like.

just had a quick look on the net, most of the comp testers come with a few thread adaptors, what size is a sv plug hole?

unfortunately i dont have a compressor, i'll just get under the tank and see what i can get to....

[husky03]

i've a wee pancake comp you can borrow also mate

[jambo]

farquare:
A little while ago I got a sticking float needle on the rear carb and filled the rear cylinder fairly full of fuel. I tried to start the bike and heard the cheerful sound of 3/4 of a turn followed by a pretty much dead stop. Pulled the plug, turned the motor over to clear it and then fixed the carb problem. The motor's done about 10,000 cheerful miles since.

Where I'm going with this is that it is possible to bend bits of engine under hydraulic lock, but it's no certainty at all that terminal engine damage has occurred.

Like YC I tend to think it's best to start with the basics and make absolutely certain that the issue you have is the one you think you do before worrying about anything too drastic :)

Here's hoping it's nothing too expensive

Jambo

[warmshed]

With the piston going up and down, if there is a spark and the fuel is getting to the carb then it should run even with a slightly bent rod, (though other problems may exist.) First check the compression with a meter. I would then check the valve mechanism. It depends on where in the stroke cycle you were, if with a hydraulic lock you can bend/break the valve gear. The valve tries to open but cant because of the lock. Certainly worth a check before scrapping it. Still a pain but easier than stripping down to replace a rod.

[farquare]

Little bit of an update, I cleaned the carbs a bit and stripped everything down.
Sounded like the front was wanting to fire but seemed quite loud.
Turning over with the leads off and putting my hand over the carb was the eureka moment though, there is very little suction coming from the front cylinder, so it appears to be down on compression due to rods, valves and or crank issues.

Looks like i've been very unlucky, if anyone can learn from this it would be if your bikes been over on the near side check there is nothing in the inlet before attempting to start.

Here are a few pics to show the battle scars, looks like we will be parting ways after 3 years. Been a great firtst bike, if i'm honest I was looking to change bikes anyway, but was probably wanting to keep this as my town/commuter steed.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff130/a_la_gun/sv%20650/DSC00062.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff130/a_la_gun/sv%20650/DSC00061.jpg


Whats the going rate for a semi-runner?

[yorkie_chris]

Same suction between front and rear?
Pull the front valve cover off and check clearance, if valve is bent then there will be some funny business in there.

I would say £500. Probably more if you parted it out, I'd be interested in the engine.

[farquare]

Same suction between front and rear?
Pull the front valve cover off and check clearance, if valve is bent then there will be some funny business in there.

I would say £500. Probably more if you parted it out, I'd be interested in the engine.

nah, front has much less suck. cheers for all your feedback though, very useful.

[warmshed]

Much less suck is a good sign, most likely its the valve or valve operating train. bit of work but not too expensive.

[-Ralph-]

You did stick the front plug back in before you tested for suction at the carb didn't you? Easy mistake on an SV because it's out of sight out of mind.

[farquare]

yeah, they were both in, just the leads disconected

[mikerj]

I think you need to do a bit more investigation before writing it off IMO. Like Ralph, I think the chance of bending a rod on the starter is very slim, but there is a possibility of valve train damage. At the very least take the front cam cover off and see what's happening. A valve clearance check will quickly reveal a bent valve, and it may even be more obvious than that.

[farquare]

I'll try to get the valve cover off and have a look to see what's what.

I've just not really got the time or the space to strip this down and sort. If I had a garage i'd defo do it just to lean. But I cant really have the engine stripped to bits for weeks in the car park.

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[farquare]

well, i had the valve covers off today and the clearences on the front and rear cylinders are within spec.

When turning the bike over on the crank with no plugs in there is definite sticky bit which i'm guessing is not normal. I'll get a shot of a comp tester and see what i can see.

Does this give anyone any more clues.

[Gazzaleachie]

Hi still sounds like a bent conrod to me

Gaz

[muzikill]

turn the engine over by hand at the stator and keep an eye on the camshafts if everything looks fine then you need to dig deeper into the engine

[farquare]

Yes, all looks fine spinning the engine over with the valve covers off.
Would it be possible to have valve damage but for the clearances to be okay, or would this always manifest in clearances being higher than expected?
Comp tester should help narrow down where the prob lies.
I've been told that the rings could be damaged by oil in the clyinder, so once I see where the issue is some oil in the cylinder should rule that out too.
If you were to pay someone to repair valves or change a rod do you have any ideas what kind of charge i'd be looking at?
On the other topic, does anyone know if you can fit later clocks onto a curvy and what wiring needs done?

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[yorkie_chris]

Repair valves is big PITA, easier to buy replacement head.
Couple of hours labour at least, not cheap. Same with rod, plus it depends what else is damaged.

To use late clocks on curvy you just need to wire it all up a bit different and use a couple of cheat circuits, you need to use MOSFET trigger on rev counter or it jumps about and couple of resistors for fuel light. Depending what year of clocks you using.

[farquare]

done a quick compression test tonight and i was scratching my head at the results.
Front clyinder compression was more than the front but both were really low.

Just looked at the manual after putting everything away for the night and realised i didn't do it with the throttle fully open which would explain the weird readings...........

i'm a plum.

[-Ralph-]

I'm struggling to figure out what difference the throttle position makes to a cylinder compression test. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that I don't understand why.

[yorkie_chris]

The throttle creates a partial vacuum in the cylinder. If you squash less air into the same space there is less pressure.

[-Ralph-]

The throttle creates a partial vacuum in the cylinder. If you squash less air into the same space there is less pressure.

OK, so it's not the throttle as such thats creating the vaccum, it's the downstroke on the cylinder sucking on the manifold and creating the vaccum because the throttle is closed and no air can get in, so when the piston comes back up on the compression stroke, there is less air in the cylinder.

Having the throttle open relieves this vaccum on the downstroke.

I wasn't thinking about the air getting into the cylinder, I was only thinking about what happens on the compression stroke when the valves are closed and the air is already there, at which point throttle makes no difference.

[farquare]

okay, done the compression test correctly tonight, and results are as follows:

rear - 11.5 bar 165psi
front - 12.4 bar - 175psi

so compression test seems okay, valve clearences are okay, swapped the plugs and it still only runs on the rear.

i will try swapping the coils round just to rule them out but this is looking like a fuelling issue.

i have been advised to drain the float bowls, can show me a link to some pics on how to do this, i've had a quick look and cant see anything on the forum and the manual isn't very clear picture wise......

any thoughts?

[-Ralph-]

So the cylinder with the problem has higher compression than the one that's running! I knew a starter motor couldn't bend a con rod on a 325cc pot.

[farquare]

managed to find the drain plug for the front carb float, bit of a pita to get the screw out but i found that disconnecting the carbs from the inlet and lifting them a bit i was able to get in with an allen key on an extension. After taking the plug out about 1/2 cup of oily crap drained out the float chamber.

After putting everything back together and cranking with the rear lead disconnected for about 10 seconds the front cylinder fired into life!

BIKE IS NOW RUNNING ON 2!

its a bit smokey as expected but at least it's running.....

Firstly thanks for all the kind words saying "dont get rid of it just yet", a bit of perspective and reflection was needed to clear my anger and think logically about the problem.
Secondly - thanks for all the suggestions on what to look for, this is where fourms and the community really help out big time.

Now i'm waiting on new brake levers arrriving, i'll get some clean fuel and forté fuel cleaner through on the next tank.

Clocks are still a problem, i've glued the front cover back together and both speedo and tacho are working but i know water will get in if i leave it the way it is at the moment. I'll put a wanted add up for a set of curvy clocks that are broken that i can get the casings from.

I can live with the tank at the moment, but i think i'll look for one in red to replace my bashed one.

[yorkie_chris]

Clean the carb out. Oil is pretty sticky and can prevent fuel flow through small jets.

Take it you have tried cranking it with plug out to try clear it?

Quoted for effect.

Thanks very much :-P

[farquare]

Quoted for effect.

Thanks very much :-P

kudos YC.

my last post was directed very much at you.

do you think there will be any lasting ill effect to the engine or is it a case of "suck it and see"?

[yorkie_chris]

Suck it and see. Probably be fine.

[farquare]

time will tell i guess. Any precautions i should take before it's first venture out?

[yorkie_chris]

sniff the oil

[Lozzo]

sniff the oil

If it smells of dog **** you may have a jack russell caught in the air filter.

[farquare]

If it smells of dog **** you may have a jack russell caught in the air filter.

That would be about the only thing thats. Not been in my engine reccently.....

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[Joeskeppi]

All good then, until a light breeze picks up again ;)

[farquare]

Aye

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[-Ralph-]

Farquare, ignore everyone else on this thread except YC whilst he takes you through a process of elimination, and don't think about scrapping your bike just yet!.

Quoted for more Kudos! \\:D/ ;)


Me? Smug barsteward? Never!

[farquare]

Well, i've cleaned the bike up, fitted new brake and clutch levers and glued the clocks back together using some awesome 2 part epoxy resin for plastick that I got in maplin.

This job was exceptionally tedious, but it seemed a shame not to try to get something out of the siituation seeing as both clocks still worked fine. Here are some pics of just how many bits the clocks were in:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff130/a_la_gun/DSC00068.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff130/a_la_gun/DSC00069.jpg

Oil smells fine as mentioned before, not too petroly....i also re-taxed on friday and i've found a home for it out of the elements

Today i'm going to hit the road and see if the engine goes pop, if it doesnt i'll be servicing oil, plugs, fitters just as a reward.
Wish me luck....
Also going to try to jimmy the tank out from inside, does anyone know if this will work if I can find a suitable instrument?

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[farquare]

done about 20 miles before lunch, bike sounded, felt and pulled fine.
was a bit smokey for the first few miles but i assume that would be all the oil burning off from the inlet and exhaust.
went to try to get some forté as i've had good results with that in the past but halfords didn't have any so a bottle of redex was added to a full tank to try to clean the bike through a bit.
all of the functions on the clocks appear to be working except the rev counter only works to 5.5k then doesnt go round any more. I don't know if there is something physically stopping it going round or if there is a wiring issue but one things for sure, i'll never get the clocks apart without breaking them even more because of the amount of glue i used so i think i can live with that....

[dizzyblonde]

done about 20 miles before lunch, bike sounded, felt and pulled fine.
was a bit smokey for the first few miles but i assume that would be all the oil burning off from the inlet and exhaust.
went to try to get some forté as i've had good results with that in the past but halfords didn't have any so a bottle of redex was added to a full tank to try to clean the bike through a bit.
all of the functions on the clocks appear to be working except the rev counter only works to 5.5k then doesnt go round any more. I don't know if there is something physically stopping it going round or if there is a wiring issue but one things for sure, i'll never get the clocks apart without breaking them even more because of the amount of glue i used so i think i can live with that....

Possibly answered by yourself?

[farquare]

There would have been no glue near the rev counter until it was dry. May have taken a knock in the fall....

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[farquare]

Well, I totally forgot how much fun biking was. 150 miles today and other than the afor mentioned rev counter maxing out at 5k and a leaking fork seal the bike is no worse for wear. Its got expensive though, £19 to fill the tank......

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[Lozzo]

Well, I totally forgot how much fun biking was. 150 miles today and other than the afor mentioned rev counter maxing out at 5k and a leaking fork seal the bike is no worse for wear. Its got expensive though, £19 to fill the tank......

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Should cost less now if you dented the tank.

[farquare]

If I could get something into the tank could I poke the dent out or are they double skinned?

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[garynortheast]

I may well be wrong on this but I have a vague recollection that they are indeed double skinned. Happy to be corrected though....

[farquare]

Well, after sunday's ride my clutch arm was pretty sore. I decided to look at the clutch components to see if there was a problem there. Cable was moving freely in it's sheeth so I gave a liberal dose of tri-flo just to be safe.
I took the worm drive off and cleaned out in a tub of paraffin then re-packed with grease and adjusted as per the manual.
Time will tell if its any better or if im just a wimp.
Also changed the oil and filter while I was at it

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