Teens and Early Twenties.....PLEASE!! [Archive] - SV650.org

-Ralph-

21-03-12, 11:08 PM

We don't know what happened to Reeder yet, but the news article makes no mention of another vehicle involved.

Regardless of what happened in that particular case, it's just not right that a 20 year old ends up being carried in a coffin, because of something that went wrong on a motorbike. It's so not necessary and so avoidable!

You have a Mother and Father who just won't be able to comprehend the fact that you died before them, they will never be able to reconcile that, and will never really get over it. My father died 15 years ago at 52, and my grandmother a year or so ago at 85. The last 15 years until the day she died, she couldn't figure out where fate had gone so wrong, that her son died before her. Imagine a 50 year old parent, trying to figure that out of a 20 year old son or daughter.

You have your whole life ahead of you. You have 60-70 years or more, of life to live, people to love, the world to see, careers to succeed in, kids to have, grandparents to be. Life is precious.

PLEASE - SLOW IT DOWN!!!!

In everything you do on motorbike, think about the "What if?" at very juncture. Leave yourself some room for error. Never ride at the limit. Never assume anything. Never think you are invincible - because Reeder just proved it - you are NOT!

I'm sorry, but if you are in your teens or early 20's, YOU ARE NOT A COMPETENT EXPERIENCED RIDER, regardless of how much you think you are (yes, that includes you!).

The reason for this is it take YEARS of experience, to build the sixth sense, the anticipation skills, and the ability to sense when a situation is getting hazardous, and a motorcyclist needs these skills to be safe. You have only been riding since you were 17! As it is you have a few years and a lot of miles to get under your belt until you really start to get safer on a motorcycle. Until then you need to be taking extra care to compensate for that.

Not everybody agrees with advanced tuition, but those who are very opposed to it tend to be older, experienced riders, who have kept themselves alive through many tens to hundreds of thousands of miles experience and have figured out their own ways of doing that.

If you have only been riding for a couple of years, then you are starting with NOTHING, other than what the DSA gave you, and that's only training to get you through a test. I cannot see anything but benefit in you doing some more tuition. It could save your mother an unmeasurable amount of heartache.

http://www.roadar.org/index.htm
http://www.iam.org.uk/motorcyclist
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/LearnerAndNewDrivers/RidingMotorcyclesAndMopeds/DG_4022666
http://www.bikesafe.co.uk/

I make no apologies for this thread and I don't care if as a young rider you find it patronising or offensive (Really! I honestly don't care). I'd rather see you offended, but having had a dose of realism and staying alive, than see you deluded, thinking you are perfectly safe on the roads, and the next minute being dead!

andrewsmith

21-03-12, 11:11 PM

Mod Sticky on this one!

Ralph good bloody post

Stuuk1

21-03-12, 11:13 PM

+1

Did an introductory day at the IAM. Well worth doing.

fenjer

21-03-12, 11:14 PM

With all due respect Ralph, I know the message you're trying to get across here, but ffs, you do this after every accident or RIP thread.

Why not just give it time to settle before you spout off.

I know you only do it because you care and want people to be better riders, but this just comes across wrong so soon after a thread like the one about Reeder has been posted.

You did it after Christopher had his off and you've done it again now.

I know plenty folk in their 30's 40 and older who ride like idiots, so give it a rest eh.

Let the dust settle and then post with advice. I find your message neither patronising or offensive, I find the timing deeply inappropriate.

Specialone

21-03-12, 11:14 PM

Fully agree col, but lets not assume it was rider error in this case.

Stay safe everyone, not just you young uns.

Sabarius

21-03-12, 11:15 PM

Reeder cannot be allowed to be another statistic, if this post and his fate make one person think twice then has to be worth a sticky surely?

speedplay

21-03-12, 11:17 PM

Was thinking of asking Lozzo if I can leave my bike in his shop.

-Ralph-

21-03-12, 11:19 PM

Stuff

I make no apologies for this thread... (Really! I honestly don't care).

I think you already have your answer Fenjer

I cannot and will not sit aside, see young motorcyclists die and say nothing. The timing IMO is the best possible timing, because tonight is the one night the young people reading might actually let it sink in. Timing is perfect for what I want to achieve IMO. I have now and will have in future, no regrets.

Specialone

21-03-12, 11:21 PM

Was thinking of asking Lozzo if I can leave my bike in his shop.

Road or dirt?

Certainly dirt bikes carry less risk that's for sure.

dizzyblonde

21-03-12, 11:24 PM

I think you already have your answer Fenjer

:rolleyes::p

Oh I dunoo, someone dies it at 50, and they've had 50 years of life......at 25 for example your life is already half over, so why try pushing it to finish any quicker?

Live life to the full..........but remember where to reel it in for another day.

Not saying owt else, coz I'll get accused of being a morbid git too :sad:

I think Ralphs only expressing concern because hes a grown up!

Stuuk1

21-03-12, 11:26 PM

I believe that this post is a very good one.

I also do believe that it is perhaps a little too soon.. Perhaps it could have waited until tomorrow morning.

However, It reminded me that I need to register with the IAM so as I can complete my training after I did the introductory course <--- Good thing.

There is no need to start an argument, sleep on it.

speedplay

21-03-12, 11:46 PM

Road or dirt?

Certainly dirt bikes carry less risk that's for sure.

Road.

Had more scares and offs on tarmac than I have ever had on the road.

And that isnt just because I've done more mileage on road, its because there are less blind people offroad and the byways are in better nick than most A roads...!

squirrel_hunter

22-03-12, 12:08 AM

I agree with Fenjer. I feel this sort of post is wholly inappropriate at this time.

Bibio

22-03-12, 12:13 AM

i'm the opposite. i think its just morbid enough to maybe get threw to someone and if it does then maybe just maybe it might save a life.

Specialone

22-03-12, 01:33 AM

Ralphs a good mate of mine so I know he means this the right way, won't I don't agree with in his op is the teens and early twenties bit, I accept the riders that generally ride too fast into blind corners or whatever and have that air of invincibility are younger riders, but we can all be guilty of some sort of risk taking at times.

I'm not being patronising posting the above, had I rode at that age I probably would've done the same or worse, I might not even be posting now, who knows.

We could all do with taking some of the points on board, not just the young uns.

Milky Bar Kid

22-03-12, 03:10 AM

I agree with Fenjer. I feel this sort of post is wholly inappropriate at this time.

+1.

fenjer

22-03-12, 06:13 AM

I think you already have your answer Fenjer

I cannot and will not sit aside, see young motorcyclists die and say nothing. The timing IMO is the best possible timing, because tonight is the one night the young people reading might actually let it sink in. Timing is perfect for what I want to achieve IMO. I have now and will have in future, no regrets.

I wasn't asking for an apology, nor do I disagree with what you've said. I'm just suggesting that you wait a little before posting these types of threads.

People are in shock, numb and saddened over what has happened to Reeder, and won't necessarily take in the message you're trying to get across.

Your timing is not perfect. It's offensive.

Messie

22-03-12, 07:35 AM

I'm sorry Ralph but I think this post is offensive too. Not just because of the timing but the gross overgeneralisation and stereotyping of youngsters.

None of us know why Reeder came off the road and hit a tree. It may have been excessive speed, but it may equally have been mud or ducks crossing.

I know old and reckless riders as well as young ones. I also know unlucky ones of every age.

I want to lock this thread but I won't as it's opinion and you're entitled to it

missyburd

22-03-12, 08:41 AM

Fully agree col, but lets not assume it was rider error in this case.

Stay safe everyone, not just you young uns.
+1. Anything could have caused this accident, and we'll probably never know.

Although I don't agree with the stereotyping as everyone has stupid tendencies at some point regardless of their age I do get the point Ralph is putting across and I do think the timing is fairly appropriate. It is while you are reeling in shock and disbelief and still raw with upset that you start to take stock of what it is you would be leaving behind if the same thing were to happen to you, of the people you love and how their lives will be shattered. Hell, I was doing it last night with Chris, discussing what would happen if one of us went first and thoroughly depressing as it was, it takes an unhappy event like this to set those cogs going. I was more concerned about me proving my relatives and all those in the "dangerous evil machines" gang right in dying on a motorcycle which is something I would hate.

It was a good post Ralph, age-ist but good :eye:

Take care EVERYONE. Can't say it enough. Often it doesn't matter how careful you are if your numbers are up but you can but try.

minimorecambe

22-03-12, 08:46 AM

Dicky Ticker

22-03-12, 08:47 AM

It is a reminder and wake up call to all and sundry that none of us are invincible and knocking the post by Ralph will not change matters-----so lets all out of respect be nice.

SoulKiss

22-03-12, 08:58 AM

I'm with the OP on this.

I didn't read this as him saying Reeder made a mistake and paid for it, I read it as a "many mistakes are avoidable if you are aware of their causes and look out for them" thread.

Mistakes happen - I still wince when I move certain ways from my little off on the 13th January.

How silly are you to hit a traffic island? I dont know, because I cannot remember a thing about it. I got lucky somehow and broke a rib and duffed up a shoulder, yet a similar incident took ASM-Forever from us.

What caused it - well there is a bus stop next to it - did someone step out from in front of a bus, did a bus pull out - I dont even know if there was a bus anywhere near. I could be I slipped on something, or just that I plain forgot that the island was there - its a road I use fairly regularly.

Maybe it was just the Friday the 13th Voodoo.

I get to feeling like Ralph did in his post every time I see posts from the younger members all in a rush to remove restrictors, either illegally, or legally by upgrading a license, or they are looking at ways to make the SV go that bit faster, and TBH I usually comment in those threads.

From experience of having been that late-teenage/early twenties guy, I know how "important" it is to have the biggest, the best, the fastest, the shiniest, and I guess its those urges that Ralph is talking about.

I remember I had a thing going where I tried to do my commute to work on the speed limit, just so that I could say I did it, and while its not that hard to do, in the car I had at the time, well lets say there were a few corners where luck came into it a little.

I am sure Ralph has similar memories, and all he really is trying to do is help others learn from his mistakes.

I don't think there is EVER a wrong time to remind people, especially those who have not really experiences just how fragile life can be, that a moments thought can make a huge difference.

Specialone

22-03-12, 09:03 AM

I have to admit that as soon as I found out I selfishly thought how lucky I was that it wasn't Gav as I don't know what I would do.
I think even without this post everyone takes stock of how important life is.

Yep, and thats a positive from a negative incident, if one person backs off or takes that extra look in the mirrors etc before doing something due to Andrews passing (or ralphs post) then its a positive.

On a side note...

Let's keep a level head, we can all be over sensitive at times, last thing we need is a thread to split us all again, Colins message is purely a positive one and posted a day or two later may have had a few more supporters I guess.

-Ralph-

22-03-12, 09:20 AM

It's seems the timing is a marmite thing, you either agree with it or you don't. I don't expect to please everyone.

I've said what I think on it, strike whilst the iron is hot, and people are vulnerable, it might just be taken as someone who does care, pleading with the youngster to take care, rather than some old fart being patronising and dishing out a lecture, which then just becomes water off a ducks back.

First thing I said in the op was that we didn't know the circumstances of Reeder's case and that that this post was regardless of that. I haven't made any assumptions over whether Reeder was doing something silly at the time.

I understand peoples comments about stereotyping and prejudice (ageism), and I knew it might be seen that way. But I believe that such things are born in the intention, not in the words. I can call an Indian friend a paki, because he knows that I'm not a racist person and that it's in jest, and he replies by calling me a tight ginger jock. If in a comment no prejudice was intended, then IMO no prejudice exists.

So the intention of this post was not stereotyping and prejudice towards young people. I know that older people ride like idiots too and up until the age of about 33 I was riding like an idiot myself, but by that age I had knocking on for half a million miles of riding and driving experience.

The point of this thread is this - If you are 20 years old, then the FACT (not a stereotype or a prejudice) is that you can only have been riding a motorbike (not moped), or driving a car, on the road for 3 years or less. You are a vulnerable road user, and it's not the time to be getting all confident and cocky.

Thanks to everyone that's posted, both positive and negative (even if certain usernames I was expecting the negative post as I knew there was an axe to grind with me). The thread now has 445 views, which from my perspective when I was trying to put a plea out there, is great.

dizzyblonde

22-03-12, 09:27 AM

I was more concerned about me proving my relatives and all those in the "dangerous evil machines" gang right in dying on a motorcycle which is something I would hate.

#not a dig#

So now your eyes are finally open?

Each day Pete comes home from work, I breath a sigh of relief. Its not a case of how old you are sometimes, its who you are.
I've had my sensible hat on for years, and I'll continue to do so. People think I have a morbid outlook when they start talking about knees down, or doing this, or speeding at that, call me slow and rubbish. I don't care about all that, I care about people.
I'm scarred emotionally because of motorcycles, I still ride them, because I love to ride them....but I also love the others that ride them too, and when people like Reeder are gone, it proves not one of us is invincible, regardless of who you are, or how good a rider you think you are.
Reeders death has hit me personally like a sledgehammer, because yet again, it makes me hurt inside, and all the more worried about those around me.

It'll pass....it always does...til next time.

k1ngy SV

22-03-12, 09:34 AM

Ralph me being in my teen's still have re'realised alot & so much is sinking in now, .
Yesterday another lad i know come off his dads bike in my town on a 400cc(model not known) had to get airlifted to hospital (hope hes alright not heard nothing back :/ ) & now this tragic accident its made me change my ways already to the brighter side for good or for bad, as im going to keep my bike restricted for the hole of my two years instead-.
- fact was im not a speed freak i just wanted the extra power for safety

Everybody needs to remember everyone back on the road again after winter and EVERYBODYS ! skills arn't what they where late summer lastyear.

Ride safe people.

slark01

22-03-12, 09:34 AM

I'm scarred emotionally because of motorcycles, I still ride them, because I love to ride them....but I also love the others that ride them too, and when people like Reeder are gone, it proves not one of us is invincible, regardless of who you are, or how good a rider you think you are.
Reeders death has hit me personally like a sledgehammer, because yet again, it makes me hurt inside, and all the more worried about those around me.

It'll pass....it always does...til next time.

So i'm not the only one.
As for the OP, totally agree. The time is now, not later when people will just shrug it off and say "whatever!".

Ste.

missyburd

22-03-12, 09:46 AM

#not a dig#

So now your eyes are finally open?

Always have been. I've had people against me riding from the word go but have gone ahead regardless. I always worry, part of feminine nature, but boys will be boys and no amount of "you should ride like this" is going to slow them down. Or at least it will momentarily but they'll be back to their old ways soon enough. The human mind is a fickle thing. If this thread even helps a couple of folk take stock is a bloody good thing.

Owenski

22-03-12, 09:59 AM

Irrespective of the timing Ralph I agree with the content but think you make one huge misjudgment yourself.

If you (the person reading this) ever believe you're a safe rider and become complacent in your riding, its only a matter of time before you get a sharp reminder that you're wrong. Biking I believe is one of those things which you're learning from the day you first mount up to the last day you get off, doesnt matter if you've riden for 5 years or 50. The roads constantly change as do the machines we ride, staying alert doesnt mean staying alive because **** can happen and yesterdays events proved it can happen to good people.

daveyrach

22-03-12, 10:05 AM

I'm 24, have been riding continually for 8 whole years first off on a CBT when I was 16 then did my full test as soon as I turned 17. I have covered hundreds of thousands of miles on all types of roads and various sized machines. I would say I am an experienced rider, I am married I have children so speed and riding like a **** is not something I do as I want to see my kids grow up. Bikes can be fun and can also be very dangerous.

My eyes are well and truly open to the dangers of motorcycling and agree it is a shame so many people my sort of age are statistics but I do think it is possible to be experienced at our age.

stewie

22-03-12, 10:12 AM

One of the great things about this site is the amount of support thats shown in good time's and bad, irregardless of whether you agree with the sentiments or timing of the OP, so lets not forget that it was done for all the right reasons, although I fear if reeder was here he'd probably derail it and/or call you gay ;)

-Ralph-

22-03-12, 10:15 AM

become complacent in your riding

Oh don't worry mate, I don't. I know my personality, and if I were ever to become complacent again, I'd start riding like an idiot again, and if that happens I'm selling my bike and hanging up my helmet.

But I can look back at accidents I had as a teenager, and realise just how oblivious I was to some of the dangers around me, because I'd never had anyone point them out to me, which is why for a young inexperienced rider, I just can't see some advanced training being a bad thing.

I'm not a perfect rider by far.

In fact the one decision I made last night, was that I'm doing my ROSPA, and IF I'm capable of it I'm going to take it right through to the Gold level, and give up my time on a Sunday morning to help out my local ROSPA group. It's the one positive thing I can do to contribute towards avoiding young people getting killed through inexperience.

The big red IF, is that to do that I need to pass Bronze and Silver first, and whilst I'm pretty confident (and have been told by one of my neighbours who is a motorbike cop) that I could pass Bronze without too much difficulty, will I be good enough to get through Silver and Gold? I won't know until I try.

RACEFIT_GLADDY

22-03-12, 10:18 AM

I'm just a year younger than Reeder myself and was only talking to him on Tuesday, and see this, this morning when i come on here, My heart sank when i read it, I am with Ralph on this one, and Before i start riding this year my bike is going in for a pre-summer health check and book my self in for some well needed advanced riding lessons, It's amazing how one day can change things.

-Ralph-

22-03-12, 10:22 AM

Littlepeahead

22-03-12, 10:34 AM

I'm 41, had my licence 4 years and still only managed 8500 miles. I don't ride like an idiot, but I've had a few near misses.

So while I think statistics and generalisations show that young men tend to ride in shall we say a 'bolder' manner than you may expect an old bird like me to ride, we can all get unlucky no matter how careful we are.

I haven't been able to ride for 6 months, and hardly rode at all last summer so I'm not looking forward to getting back on the bike and wobbling down the road to get my MOT. Some advanced training again is always a good idea, I've done it before and learned a lot.

None of us are ever too young or old or too experienced not benefit from advice, training and guidance.

I know Ralph wrote his post from the heart, and no one should criticise him for that.

dizzyblonde

22-03-12, 10:42 AM

So i'm not the only one.

Ste.

Nope, and I'm sure theres many that feel the same.
I've been around bikes for nearly 20 years, and over those years I think I can probably count at least one badly damaged/passed away friend, family or loved one, for every year of those 20...not all necessarily from their own fault either. Had to deal with them personally at times too, and live with the consequences.

Makes people wonder why I'm such a worry wart, and get a bit feisty when it comes to these sort of subjects!

brennan

22-03-12, 10:49 AM

I think i fall in -Ralph-'s target demographic. Im 22 and have only been riding for 18months. I thought i was a good rider. I dont go kneedown or wheelieing around and i feel i know roads well ( covering 40k plus a year in a car).

However reading last night about Reeder really hit home to myself. When thinking about it I have taken risks when filtering and do go too fast on narrow/small roads. Being from a family that wasnt into bikes ive never really known people that can give me experience/pointers. I think -Ralph-'s comments are valid, they may seem bad taste to some but if tey remind me and others of the risks it isnt a "bad" thing.

Elliott

22-03-12, 10:57 AM

I agree im 19 and been riding for around 2yrs. As a rider i can handle my bike however my observations and estimations are awful. I never ride full tilt on the road as i just cant begin to imagine whats roound the corner.

I have my first proper track day in april and if everything goes as planed i may be leaving road riding all together. the only reason we ride on the road is for fun and i have fun cranked over. until my riding style changes ill be better off on track.

Suchy

22-03-12, 11:21 AM

A point that really needs to come across to is those of us that have come back to biking after any length of time off also take it steady and dont try to do what you used to do only what you are comfortable with now. Ive had about 9 months out of riding and can definatly tell I need to sharpen up again as even in that short period I know I can miss judge my braking as have run wide already this biking season. Just remember everyone is still learning no matter what age and take it steady when getting back too it.

carelesschucca

22-03-12, 11:23 AM

I agree im 19 and been riding for around 2yrs. As a rider i can handle my bike however my observations and estimations are awful.

I think that every biker out there should do exta training, its not as if you ride because you have to, we do it because we love it and why wouldn't you want to get better at something you love. I did the IAM, and now I don't believe in everything they preach, but god, things I've learnt have saved me.

Give things like the IAM a try mate. It'll be the best improvement you make to your observations. I'll be honest I wasn't convinced when I first went to them but I very quickly realised that with people helping and giving advice my riding improved and I became a safer quicker rider (some would say too quick)

Also lets give Colin a break here he only shouts loudly because HE CARES about us!!!

Small Clanger

22-03-12, 11:23 AM

davepreston

22-03-12, 12:12 PM

bad taste -********, ageist -********
the fact is this was the right time for such a post and irespective of title not only for those under 30
what better way to continue reeders imput to the org than him potentially saving someone else
does a kick in the ******** which reeders passing was focus the mind- yes i bloody well does
could someone even one person doing some training after reading this save there life- most fecking likely
would reeder be proud that he had such a effect that someone sat back and did the training which saved there life because of him- we'd never hear the fecking end of it
now i shall quote spidy- if you dont like a thread dont post in it

i will end with this
the greatest gift a man can give is his life for his brother

Biker Biggles

22-03-12, 12:14 PM

Specialone

22-03-12, 12:14 PM

Well said DP:)

After ralph posting about rospa, I'm thinking of it myself.

Owenski

22-03-12, 12:15 PM

here here*

andrewsmith

22-03-12, 05:39 PM

Well said DP

Also your never too old or too young to keep learning your Roadcraft.
Anyone who thinks that the IAM/ ROSPA isn't for them go speak to your local club or instructor.

I passed my IAM at age 22 on a SV! Not all the IAM are BMW Boxertwin riders or Goldwing riders!

Also Bikesafe is worth the money even for the assessed ride! As a side note, anyone within the Northumberland area there will be a handful of Council, Police, IAM (Through Northumbria Advanced Motorcycles) funded cornering clinic running through 2012 with free assessed rides by NAM

ophic

22-03-12, 06:00 PM

I think if Ralph offends 1000 people and saves 1, then it's a worthwhile thread.

Bibio

22-03-12, 06:15 PM

Ralph offends everyone so by the law of averages he should be our saviour.

AJC

22-03-12, 06:16 PM

I agree with Ralph on this.

To be honest 10 minutes ago when I saw topic of the thread I cringed a little and thought "too soon, thats gonna cause offence". But then I read the post and thought about the comments on the timing, its hit home to me anyway. I am pretty new to this forum and had personally never commented on any of Reeders posts, but I had obviously noticed him around as a prominent member/poster. So in the last little while I read posts of his, some from the last couple of days and I am actually in shock about how easily a seemingly fun and vibrant 20yr old can be lost on a bike. Or of any age quite frankly...

So I guess what I am saying is that for me personally its at a time like this I am thinking most about my own vulnerability on the road, and how dangerous I can be when out on my bike (no I dont ride like a loon, but I could be doing a lot of things better, probably). So with these thoughts and reading this thread I have reopened an email my brother has sent me about IAM starting their season in a couple of weeks (he is an instructor) and decided to get it sorted out. I had been a member before but stopped due to football commitments which I no longer have (knee ligaments ahoy!).

I will definetly be attending advanced riding/training this year, again not because I am a tw*t on the road, but simply because at 28 with 3 yrs experience I am sure there is much more I can learn...

SoulKiss

22-03-12, 06:19 PM

I think if Ralph offends 1000 people and saves 1, then it's a worthwhile thread.

and to be fair, well under the usual Ralph Ratio of 1,000,000:1 Offended :)

-Ralph-

22-03-12, 06:39 PM

LOL at the Ralph offence ratios! :)

Well thanks a lot to everyone that has left supportive comments, it means a lot and also comes as a pleasant surprise, I was expecting to get absolutely roasted, or maybe banned for this when I posted it, but I thought that the message was so important and critical to get it in there whilst people were perceptive to it, that I didn't care. I don't cope well with 20 year olds dying, whoever they are or however they die, it angers and upsets me and I somehow want to stop it, however much I can't, and however stupid and idealistic/unrealistic that may seem. I could never have been in the emergency services, or in the medical profession.

Thanks even more to those posts where people have said they are going to sort out their training as a result, even if I got only those posts and every other post had been telling me I was a complete rrssss hole, for those posts it would have been worth it.

Faith in this fantastic forum restored!

The Idle Biker

22-03-12, 07:11 PM

Ralph...please use less words. I find your length of post offensive ;-)

carelesschucca

22-03-12, 09:52 PM

I was expecting to banned for this!

Can we not just ban him anyway??? He's expecting it ;)

missyburd

22-03-12, 09:55 PM

We should ban him for that avatar, imposter...she hasn't even got ginger hair! :-P

DJFridge

22-03-12, 10:12 PM

We should ban him for that avatar, imposter...she hasn't even got ginger hair! :-P

You can't ban his avatar - it cheers me up every time I see it!

HoL

22-03-12, 10:17 PM

You can't ban his avatar - it cheers me up every time I see it!

And if he does long posts you can stare for longer :)

DJFridge

22-03-12, 10:25 PM

And if he does long posts you can stare for longer :)

While pretending to read it!!;)

robh539

22-03-12, 10:26 PM

I agree with the op, but this applies to all really we all let are guard down at times.
I am signed up with the IAM and think its great, has had me more aware of things and still have fun. I need to finish it this year. I would deffo get in touch with a local group as its a free to join them for a assement ride. I am with a good bunch of guys, with hours of great roads to ride.

You can't ban his avatar - it cheers me up every i time I see it!
Yeah same here but then I meetup with him and something is different..... i think the hair styles changed somewhat. a few beers later i still would ;)

Specialone

22-03-12, 10:54 PM

Can we not just ban him anyway??? He's expecting it ;)

We should ban him for that avatar, imposter...she hasn't even got ginger hair! :-P

Shall I put up a poll ?:rolleyes:

-Ralph-

22-03-12, 11:03 PM

Yep, ban me Phil, Sandrine will cook you a full English for breakfast and serve it with a big kiss for a week!

Specialone

22-03-12, 11:08 PM

Yep, ban me Phil, Sandrine will cook you a full English for breakfast and serve it with a big kiss for a week!

Hmmm that's sooooo tempting :)

Red Herring

22-03-12, 11:45 PM

I've stayed well out of this thread so far because what Ralph posted is just the sort of thing I'd have said, and have been saying, for years. The only significant difference is I wouldn't have made it an age thing. Make no mistake, what happened to Reeder is tragic, but every death is a loss to someone and to say a young life is somehow more valuable than someone of more advanced years is rather one sided. Is it worse for a parent to lose a child, or a child to lose a parent? I am both a father and a son so does that make me doubly valuable?

Motorcycling is something most of us choose to do, rather than have it forced upon us. We all know it can be dangerous, and we decide to manage that risk according to our individual point of view. That point of view will change as does our circumstance, but the dangers around our activity remain fairly constant and we have to understand that. Every now and then, like now, we will be given a reminder of those dangers, but are we really learning something we didn't already know?

I didn't know Reeder personally but he was clearly a popular individual and had a positive influence on all those around him. His death is a huge loss not just to his friends and family but also to all those that he would have gone on to meet and influence. If his death serves only to bring sadness to the world then we have sold him short. I don't know how or why his demise came about, but if as a result others are motivated to go out and improve their own riding skills which ultimately may save them from a similar fate then Reeder will have been far more influential in death than he may ever have been in life. Lets pay Reeder the ultimate compliment folks and take our riding seriously.

The Idle Biker

23-03-12, 12:03 AM

Gawd help us, yer mean well I know you do and you're a better rider than most...........

Kilted Ginger

23-03-12, 12:04 AM

yep, ban me phil, sandrine will cook you a full english for breakfast and serve it with a big kiss for a week!

Done

gruntygiggles

23-03-12, 12:11 AM

I have watched death tear my family to pieces too many times to feel anything but respect for Ralph for posting this up.

Yes, it can seem like inappropriate timing, but in truth, death doesn't wait for the right time, it just happens.

I would rather live in a world where people are willing to lose friends and save lives than keep quiet for the sake of saving people offence.

I know full well that there are at least 4 teenage girls that are now living healthy lives, despite having previously been gripped by anorexia thanks to the death of my cousin. What happened to her woke them up to what they were doing and they allowed those around them to start helping. This is the biggest source of comfort to my aunt and my family.

This post has already served its purpose. It is fantastic to see that people have thought about their riding and about additional training.

My hat's off to you Ralph and I do understand why people will find this inappropriate timing, but if a little offence means just one life saved, it is worth it.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 12:26 AM

to say a young life is somehow more valuable than someone of more advanced years is rather one sided

Never ceases to amaze me how different people can interpret things in different ways, but just for clarity, this is not what I'm suggesting at all. I have said a few things in this thread about the tragedy of young people dying, but I don't think I've said anything that belittles that tragedy when it's an older person.

This is what I'm suggesting...

The point of this thread is this - If you are 20 years old, then the FACT (not a stereotype or a prejudice) is that you can only have been riding a motorbike (not moped), or driving a car, on the road for 3 years or less. You are a vulnerable road user, and it's not the time to be getting all confident and cocky.

I don't think there's any dispute that young riders are particularly at risk due to a variety of factors, statistics show this, insurance premiums show it also.

Inexperience is just one of those factors and whilst it is just as dangerous at any age (after young riders accident stats are highest for born again riders), it is a factor affects ALL 20 year olds pretty much without exception.

The thread is age targeted for a reason.

I'll do another thread targeting the born again's next week ;)

Every now and then, like now, we will be given a reminder of those dangers, but are we really learning something we didn't already know?

Not simply by being reminded that motorcycling is dangerous, no, but by turning that reminder into action, by turning up next Sunday morning at your local IAM or ROSPA group, then hopefully, yes.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 12:36 AM

Hmmm that's sooooo tempting :)

The breakfast or the kiss?

Done

I know which one you're after! :p

ravingdavis

23-03-12, 01:16 AM

I agree with Ralph. I want to do IAM but its finding the time to do it right now thats the hard part.

Bri w

23-03-12, 07:44 AM

-Ralph- well done for doing what I didn't have the bawls to do.

Poor timing?

Would your post have had the same impact in a month's time? I think not.

Specialone

23-03-12, 08:02 AM

The breakfast or the kiss?

Both obviously :)

Red Herring

23-03-12, 08:32 AM

Never ceases to amaze me how different people can interpret things in different ways, but just for clarity, this is not what I'm suggesting at all. I have said a few things in this thread about the tragedy of young people dying, but I don't think I've said anything that belittles that tragedy when it's an older person.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were belittling older casualties, only that by making reference to age you shifted the focus of your message onto that age group rather than directing it to all. That had the potential to alienate some (which it did) and divert attention away from the main theme of your message.
Given how people often react at time of tragedy I also thought it a brave post, but the Org. has handled it better than average.

RACEFIT_GLADDY

23-03-12, 08:40 AM

If you don't agree with what Ralph posted why are you posting on here, also I dont think this is a thread what really warrants Reply's although it has gotten so many.

Dipper

23-03-12, 09:03 AM

I'll do another thread targeting the born again's next week ;)
I'll wait until next week then before I think about extra training then;)

Seriously though, this thread and Andrews death have made my mind up to do something. I admire your balls Ralph for posting this so close to such a tragic event, very relevant and IMHO the timing could not have been better.

Bluefish

23-03-12, 10:08 AM

Good post Ralph, I'm off for the first proper ride of the year this weekend, no doubt this will be at the back of my mind.

AZZ3R

23-03-12, 01:16 PM

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 01:26 PM

Don't think there is an age related argument to be had TBH, everyone agrees that it's not just young riders, it's just that this particular thread I decided to specifically target the highest risk group.

tom-k6

23-03-12, 01:28 PM

over 2000 views now, the message is getting out there that there are other ways of learning techniques rather than trial and error.

i full agree with timing as with the sadness of R's passing, we all take stock of what we have and we realise how much we would lose and how much family and friends would lose. and no-one wants that.

anything that can get people thinking about how they ride is a bonus.

and with what someone else said on here, if you offend 1000 people and save 1 life, its all worthwhile.

Specialone

23-03-12, 01:30 PM

I agree with the post, & I have attended on some of the courses & found it very useful. I also understand the statistics of the 'younger' riders/ drivers are more likely to crash than say, someone in there mid 30's.

BUT, not all 'young' riders/drivers are like this. As you've said no one knows about the crash, so lets not assume/presume it was a 'young' persons inexperience that caused this.

You may take one look at me & think I'm an immature rider or I ride like a pillock but, there are the older generation that can act like this too. Yes it might not be a great comparison between the 'young or old' riders but for someone who stated riding at say, 17 - 23 they have 6years of road knowledge/ experience compared to someone who 'fancys' getting a bike at 30+.

I know people will disagree with my post, I'm not disagreeing with yours, I agree with it. but that's just my opinion on the age related side of the argument.

In fairness, you've got more riding experience than me and I'm 41, but I've got a lot of road experience, 23years and that is what helps you make some decisions whereas a younger rider MAY not know or care.

I know from my own experiences in my 20's, you never think of consequences or risk, more likely to race someone when goaded etc.

Rightly or wrongly, you gain more experience and sense as you get older and that directly influences your riding, driving or lifestyle even.

That said there are some bloody good young riders on here ability wise, somewhere I'll never be in comparison, it's something I've just about come to accept.

dizzyblonde

23-03-12, 01:37 PM

Like it or lump it, testosterone has a lot to do with it, rather than age, or experience.

Specialone

23-03-12, 01:41 PM

Which men have more of in their younger days ;)

dizzyblonde

23-03-12, 01:49 PM

Precisely.......the older ones have usually had it nagged out of them by their wives* ;)

*or so the wives think!

Owenski

23-03-12, 01:51 PM

and long may that miss judgement continue.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 01:56 PM

I don't think there's any dispute that young riders are particularly at risk due to a variety of factors, statistics show this, insurance premiums show it also.

Inexperience is just one of those factors

Testosterone and competitiveness (even if you only trying to compete or prove something to yourself) are one of those factors for sure.

Also, and I'm not sure whether it's testosterone because the same happens to the ladies, but as you get older you develop a greater sense of fear, and a lower tolerance towards risk. I was out this week, coming round a corner that was blind due to high hedges, and I was not going fast, in fact if I'd be going any slower mothers on the school run into Uppingham that I'd overtaken would have been catching me up again, but was still doubting in my mind "If a tractor with big spikey things on it is stationary in the road half way round this corner, can I at this speed avoid it or stop?". Even 5 years ago (I'm nearly 36) I either wouldn't have thought about it at all, or I would have thought "Meh, it'll be fine, I'll take the risk, if it's my day to go, then it's my day to go."

As Specialone has also noted, 20 years and half a million miles of road use, give you much a better sixth sense. I can't remember the last near miss I had as a result of normal traffic conditions or another driver doing something stupid, nor have I had an accident under those conditions since I was about 19. All the near misses or accidents I've had since, were entirely my fault because I was being an idiot, taking a risk and riding too fast on a country road (or in one case riding a country road in icy conditions where an alternative motorway route was possible and would have been more sensible, yet preferring riding enjoyment over safety, I took a concious decision not to use the motorway).

Owenski

23-03-12, 02:53 PM

It was tuesday morning when I had my last one, remained calm didnt do anything brash saw the hazard and also saw the "safe zone" so contiuned. Only after the event did I think "that **** could have killed me then"
The situation was at this location:
http://forums.sv650.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10530&stc=1&d=1332511504

All vehicles in the left hand land were static due to road works much further ahead causing tail backs quite a way back in the direction I'd come. I was riding out with wheels just over the white lines (a distance from the traffic that I deam perfect for wingmirror visibilty at about 5 car lengths) filtering the stationary traffic on my left. There was very little traffic coming the other direction and after a period of no traffic a driver coming the other direction took exception to my manouver flashed his headlights and drifted across his lane closing the gap between him and the stationary traffic.
A little stunned I assumed his game of chicken would see him pull back over but instead he flashed again and moved even tighter. Up ahead Id noted a blue focus was further left than the majority of traffic in the left lane and timed my approach so I the oncoming astra and I passed as I passed the focus, it allowed me to move that little bit further left but you know its close when as they pass you tuck your knee in to avoid taking thier wingmirror off with it and I had to do this with both knees.

Im young good looking and have a great personality ;) in other words fit the profile of the OP but I did nothing wrong on the day. I didnt deserve his wrecklessness but kept a cool enough head to come away unhurt. I know this isnt the sort of incident your OP was based upon but it goes someway to proving that us young wippersnapper males have some worth in the saddle ourselves.

Not to poke the cat already amoungst the pidgeons I do remember a statistic that said of the casualties on our roads, x number are motorcylce, of that number x percent are between the age of 18-30 etc etc but its was the demographic of riders 40-60 where the most casualties occured, it was the same article (99% certain) that said you're most at risk if you're returning to riding after a period of not.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 04:02 PM

If you are really interested in motorcycle accidents and want the real facts which have been analysed explained and concluded, rather than just drawing your own conclusions for statistics and damn lies, then give this a read. I printed it off and took it down to London on the train one day.

http://www.mile-muncher.co.uk/dft_rdsafety_035422.pdf

Born again riders are a higher risk than young riders when it comes to specific types of accident, but this is because they generally have the money to spend on sports bikes, insurance and petrol and go for Sunday rides on country roads. Also you need to compare the number of accidents as a proportion of the number of bikes on the road. There is no point saying 50 riders in the 30-35 year age group had accidents, but only 20 riders in the 16-20 age group had accidents, therefore the young ones are safer, if you had 500 oldies and only 50 young ones.

Page 33 is a good graph on this, and the conclusion from this page is quoted below for anyone that can't be bothered with the PDF. This insurance companies don't just make their premiums up!

"In Figure 11 the bar on the left indicates the age of riders involved in motorcycling
accidents according to the motorcycle accident database. The bar on the right shows
the age of the respondents to the questionnaire; it is obvious that the two groups are
very different using this simple measure. The chart shows that the majority of
accidents occur to younger riders; just under half (48%, n ¼ 1,320) of all accidents
involved riders under the age of 30 but only 8% (n ¼ 141) of the respondents to the
questionnaire were within that age band. As age increases actual accident rates fall
quite dramatically, but the proportion of respondents to the questionnaire increases
and remains higher than the actual accident involvement rate until the 60 or over age
group. Most striking is the 40 to 49 age band who account for only 14% of all
accidents but make up 42% of the respondents."

Owenski

23-03-12, 04:07 PM

This insurance companies don't just make their premiums up!

You sure?
bloody seems like it when you hear of the prices they demand lol.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 04:10 PM

You sure?
bloody seems like it when you hear of the prices they demand lol.

Ha, ha, realistic and reasoned are two very different things. :)

Some of them just don't really want young peoples business.

Owenski

23-03-12, 04:17 PM

It can be seen that young motorcyclists (16–20 years) seem to have an increased
propensity for being at fault in ROWVaccidents. Other age groups are not overrepresented
in this type of accident, with the exception of two groups, those over 70
and the 51–55 age group. This last finding must be treated with caution, however, as
the numbers of motorcyclists in the older age bands are quite small. Motorcyclists
aged 26–30 years seem to have an increased propensity for going out of control on
bends, with those over 70 showing less propensity. There appears to be an
anomalous result in the neighbouring age bands 51–55 and 56–60 years for
overtakes/filtering, but, again, the numbers of motorcyclists in the older age groups
for this type of accident are quite small.

What are they defining as a ROWV? Is that basically people getting pulled out on?

EDIT: nevermind its answered on the next page:
"Of the total cases, 681 (38%) involve ROWVs. However, less than 20% of these
involve a motorcyclist who rated as either fully or partly to blame for the accident.
The majority of motorcycle ROWVaccidents have been found to be primarily the
fault of other motorists. This is an even higher level of ‘non-blameworthiness’ in
ROWVaccidents than that observed in other in-depth studies, e.g. Hurt et al. (1981)
The majority of ROWVs occur at T-junctions, which are three times as common as
roundabouts or crossroads. This finding is in accordance with the work of Hole,
Tyrell and Langham (1996), who found that the majority of such accidents occurred
at ‘uncontrolled’ (i.e. no stop light or sign with only give-way markings and/or signs
present) T-junctions in urban environments."

Owenski

23-03-12, 04:33 PM

SOOOOOOOOOOO the way I read that is that, the most riders who are involved in accidents are those 16-20. These riders are also mainly involved in ROWV, which less than 20% are the riders actual fault...

Surely you see where Im going with that?

The numptys pulling out are just as likely to be pulling out on the older riders too but practise and hazard perception means these older riders avoid a collison.

Moving onto the next age group of 26-30, you lot are more likely to come off on a bend Other riders involved in this type of accident are and I quote:

"Riders having this type of accident are nearly three times as likely (compared with
the whole sample) to be rated as ‘inexperienced’ riders by researchers; this usually
occurs when it has been noted by an investigating police officer that some form of
inexperience was a factor, e.g. a rider who has only very recently passed the
motorcycle test."

Note inexperianced, not YOOF.

The table on page 30 is good, proves mopeds and scooters have crap brakes and that supersports rarely commute but often crash on bends.

Owenski

23-03-12, 04:42 PM

The table on page 32 is complete BS.
Basing ratio of riders who responded to the survey as an indication of the number of people within that age group who ride is pointless.
If I asked 100 under 25yr olds to fill in a survey and a 100 30+yr olds I'd get a hell of a lot more returned from the over 30s than I would the under 25's. Its simple bored at home logic, under 25's are too busy doing stuff to worry about surveys, but your telegraph reading 30+'s will be excited at the thought of having something different to do that day.

I mean come on, how many surveys did you fill in before turning 30? I know I've never returned a single one!
If any of them were relating to biking then despite been a daily rider my statistic isnt accounted for but it certainly would be if I came off - utterly pointless!

Owenski

23-03-12, 04:52 PM

Case and point, table 4.7.5:

60% of respondants had taken the old style bike test... these are not your scooter riding under 20's then are they?

12% passed the new DAS - of this 12% some will be older riders but ALL young riders must be within this percentage.

Therefore IMO the facts in that report are BS, they're based on a respondant survey and one major demographic are significantly less likely to respond than the others, those percentages prove that beyond any doubt.

Short of stopping all scooters/mopeds and bikes at the road side and then compear that to your accedent reports you're not going to get accurate figures for these sorts of documents.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 06:10 PM

In one sentence, what are you trying to demonstrate Matt?

As Specialone has also noted, 20 years and half a million miles of road use, give you much a better sixth sense. I can't remember the last near miss I had as a result of normal traffic conditions or another driver doing something stupid, nor have I had an accident under those conditions since I was about 19. All the near misses or accidents I've had since, were entirely my fault because I was being an idiot, taking a risk and riding too fast on a country road

This fits perfectly with what you are pulling out of this report. The older guys tend to crash because they are being a numpty on a country road. The younger guys are crashing due to right of way violations (ROVW). As I said earlier though, that's also because older guys are using bikes for Sunday recreation, younger guys are using them for commuting.

I think I see where you are trying to go with saying ROWV are not the young riders fault, therefore the older guys are more dangerous (correct me if I got that wrong), but as you know I disagree with that as we along with Red Herring have covered already once this month. Once you are in an ambulance or dead, what does it matter whose fault the accident was in the eyes of the law or the insurance company?

My OP asks the younger guys to consider advanced training, because it concentrates very heavily on anticipation skills, hazard awareness, observation, and forward planning. The very skills you need to avoid ROWV violations. The ROWV violations are a constant danger as RH posted earlier, you'll never solve them or get rid of them, what matters is how you deal with them. To deal with them you need to realise they are there, and a lot of young guys don't, because they haven't yet been through the learning process.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 06:24 PM

Its simple bored at home logic, under 25's are too busy doing stuff to worry about surveys, but your telegraph reading 30+'s will be excited at the thought of having something different to do that day

On the subject of ageism, you made me :smt046 with this mate.

I so wish I had as much free time as I had when I was under 25, still at Uni and not working, no kids, living with Mum, no housework, no washing, no DIY :lol:

Red Herring

23-03-12, 06:31 PM

O
I so wish I had as much free time as I had when I was under 25, still at Uni and not working, no kids, living with Mum, no housework, no washing, no DIY :lol:

With 6,351 posts to your name I'm not surprised you haven't any free time....:)

maxinc

23-03-12, 06:50 PM

Therefore IMO the facts in that report are BS, they're based on a respondant survey and one major demographic are significantly less likely to respond than the others, those percentages prove that beyond any doubt.

It may be incomplete or biased but it holds some clues and bits of information based on facts that you only seem to speculate on. I would be interested to compare it against your study of the facts.

I agree with Ralph 100% here. It may look boring or uncool but advanced riding skills are about getting the most fun out of your bike while being safe. I think constraint is probably the most difficult skill to learn. You can learn to put you knee down and be the fastest on the bends but keeping yourself out of trouble is hard work on a powerful bike regardless of your experience.

I've only recently started biking and before I committed to DAS, I spent weeks watching and analysing motorcycle accidents. I wasn't interested who's fault it was but what the rider could have done to avoid it, and I was encouraged by the fact that there is almost always something that could have been done to avoid it. Sadly, it was the misfortune of others that guided me towards advanced training, but I'm glad I've chosen this path and hopefully will give me a better chance of surviving while I do what I enjoy most.

-Ralph-

23-03-12, 07:29 PM

No report is perfect, and as I posted earlier there are statistics and damn lies. You could spend all day doing your own interpretation of statistics and drawing your own conclusions to prove one thing, whilst another person spends all day finding stuff that seems to prove the opposite. Reports like this from the DFT are documents that although not perfect and have been written by fallible human beings, they are written by people that are being paid to do that job and for whom it is their primary focus. It's a damn sight better than reading a news or magazine article, that has chosen certain statistics in order to support a pre-decided conclusion, which has a interesting headline, which looks good on a newsagents shelf.