View Full Version : Braking before corners
Fallout
02-01-13, 04:58 PM
Ok, so this has only really come to the forefront of my mind recently. It's always been at the back of my mind, but on the last rideout with Tim it suddenly made sense (sorry Tim, not bashing you at all. You just made me think).
I don't really brake for corners, and a good proportion of other GMers don't seem to either. There are a few examples when you do need to brake for corners:
1 - Overtaking just before a tight corner, so going in hot
2 - Hooliganism down a straight before a tight corner
3 - Spotting some sort of hazard/traffic around the corner
4 - Other examples I can't be arsed to think of
Other than those you really don't need to brake. All you need to do is roll off the throttle, select the right gear in plenty of time, then smooth power on through the bend. The majority of braking I've been seeing is obviously fear braking because when I roll off the throttle I'm hardly catching up at all before the bend. It's obviously a case of feeling unsettled approaching the bend, applying some pathetic amount of brake to regain confidence, then going in at a lean angle of about 2 degrees. :p
I find it really good for confidence to forget the brake. No need to unsettle the bike or quickly go from brake to throttle just before the corner. Remove that extra control from the equation, and force yourself to just decelerate, down shift, settle then tip in. It's good for confidence and a nice easy way to defeat the panic braking which to me seems to do more harm than good.
I'm not trying to come across as perfect. I tap the brakes often when I didn't need to, and usually the corner isn't great afterwards, but we're not GP riders. We're not going fast enough to need to brake on 90% of bends. There's no point making your life complicated and giving yourself that false sense of safety by only scrubbing off 5% of your speed with a gentle braking touch. Just roll off early, use all that lovely extra time off the brakes to find the right position and prepare yourself to tip it in, then get back on the throttle gently.
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, and I've not really been scrutinizing anyone enough to even remember who the culprits are! Just thought I'd mention it to those who feel they brake unnecessarily, and hopefully with that in your minds you might have a go at making your life easier. :) :riding:
I see most of the gm lot flash some brake lights into most corners (even when youre not blatting down a straight beforehand) but i wonder if that just comfort braking (ie: just applying some pressure to the lever but not really braking at all) or a slight bit of 'fear braking' as you mentioned..
Obviously i brake before most corners but that comes from fear/inexperience/lack of gonnads
MisterTommyH
02-01-13, 05:28 PM
Sorry to barge in on the GM (feel free to tell me to bugger off back to Madlanders).
Are most of you SVs or other twins? - Tend to get more engine braking on these and therefore not need to brake as much before a corner as somone on an IL4 might.
Also I've been on a few .org rideouts where the organiser has asked twin riders to member this fact and, when rolling off before a corner, just tap the lever (front or back) enough to activate the light and let the rider behind know you are slowing - especially when the person behind isn't on a twin.
Not intended as criticism in any way, just trying to understand where you are coming from - and I'm in no place to criticise anyway as I am, by my own admission, sh1te at cornering.
Braking is fine if it's part of your plan for that corner. If however you are braking because you've found yourself going too quick for comfort at that point then that's not so good.
Jammy, not sure who you end up behind to see all those flashing brake lights as in the main I'm seeing fewer and fewer "unplanned" brakelights from the regular GMers.
Spank86
02-01-13, 05:58 PM
I brake when I'm slowing even if its all engine braking and brake light flash.
The brake light is an indicator, an indicator that you're slowing.
Front braking into the corner can also help shift weight over the front wheel as long as you come off it smoothly.
Also I've been on a few .org rideouts where the organiser has asked twin riders to member this fact and, when rolling off before a corner, just tap the lever (front or back) enough to activate the light and let the rider behind know you are slowing - especially when the person behind isn't on a twin.
This is good advice - we give it to all of our associate members, as the engine braking on a bike isn't opposed by the momentum of a ton of metal, so it's useful information to give to all following vehicles.
I would say that I'm not inclined to brake that often when I'm riding on my own, but I'm not a fast rider these days either.
Sir Trev
02-01-13, 06:17 PM
I also agree with Tommy's point about notice and after ten years on a v-twin I got into the habbit of dabbing the brake if another vehicle would benefit as I made full use of engine braking. Now I'm on an IL4 with a lot less of it I tend to plan more but oddly enough my car has altered my cornering a bit too. I suspect Ford have engineered a bit of flywheel effect into their current models to aid fuel consumption (my '11 Focus coasts for ages in gear on no throttle) so I tend to brake more on the aproach to bends as I drive the car more than the bike...
most of the brake lights you see me putting on are 'braking indicators' with some being to scrub off some speed before a corner but not many.
Fallout
02-01-13, 07:22 PM
The slowing indication makes good sense, but I don't see it as necessary all the time. When we're on a rideout and there's a bike behind me and we're going into a corner, nobody is stonking up behind you planning to get their knee down. Or at least, none of us lot. That's not how we ride. However when slowing down on a straight, or if a car is behind you, or you're slowing for another reason our of the ordinary, it makes sense. Agreed.
As for engine braking, I'm on an IL4 and get enough engine braking for most corners, but I do downshift to decelerate.
My point here isn't to criticize using the brakes. Use them whenever you want! My point is, from personal experience, I find the whole riding experience much more enjoyable without using the brakes. It feels smoother and cornering feels more fluid. I'd just like to see some of the newbies slow down gradually for the corners and just have the confidence to go round them without feeling they have to brake all the time. It'll feel much better.
Spank86
02-01-13, 07:43 PM
I do it when it's not necessary so that I don't forget to when it is.
Same as using my indicators to turn into a junction on an empty road.
Skybaba
02-01-13, 09:20 PM
It feels smoother and cornering feels more fluid. I'd just like to see some of the newbies slow down gradually for the corners and just have the confidence to go round them without feeling they have to brake all the time. It'll feel much better.
I'm a newbie and I find myself breaking corner after corner, I guess it's confidence.......I'm yet to find out the lmits of my SV so I'm still a bit cautious :)
I like this forum, learning a lot by the day!!! :p
Spank86
02-01-13, 09:48 PM
If you're a newbie you shouldn't be braking whilst IN the corner, if you're braking in the run up to it that's fine but not while you're going round.
Brake more coming up to corners and then accelerate round, the bike and you will feel better and you'll get more of a knowledge about how quick you can actually go... Safely.
Skybaba. Where are you situated?
Thunderace
02-01-13, 10:14 PM
Sorry to barge in on the GM (feel free to tell me to bugger off back to Madlanders).
Are most of you SVs or other twins? - Tend to get more engine braking on these and therefore not need to brake as much before a corner as somone on an IL4 might.
It's about 50:50 Twins and IL4's.
Posted by the king of HOLY F**K braking!
Fallout
02-01-13, 10:19 PM
I'm a newbie and I find myself breaking corner after corner, I guess it's confidence.......I'm yet to find out the lmits of my SV so I'm still a bit cautious :)
I'm always cautious. I'm that sort. :) I'm not talking about throwing caution to the wind or talking about pushing yourself to go faster round corners. I'm just talking about stepping away from fear braking. Ya know that moment when you're about to hit the turn and you're thinking "hhmmmmm ... feels a bit fast, might just slow down a touch more". Well get that done sooner with deceleration rather than last minute braking, and after a while you can start going in a bit faster.
As Spank said, you shouldn't be braking mid turn, so removing the whole braking before a corner bit totally removes the issue of tipping in while under braking. If you get into the decelerating early there's much less risk of feeling under pressure to get on the brakes on lean. :)
Skybaba
02-01-13, 11:14 PM
If you're a newbie you shouldn't be braking whilst IN the corner, if you're braking in the run up to it that's fine but not while you're going round.
Brake more coming up to corners and then accelerate round, the bike and you will feel better and you'll get more of a knowledge about how quick you can actually go... Safely.
Yes Sir....that's one rule that rings in my ears continually - "NEVER brake in corners". What I meant was that I usually grab the brakes (in a bit of a panic) just before entering corners; I guess I need a comfortable entry speed into corners.
Skybaba. Where are you situated?
I'm based in Bedford, work in London.
Skybaba
02-01-13, 11:32 PM
I'm always cautious. I'm that sort. :) I'm not talking about throwing caution to the wind or talking about pushing yourself to go faster round corners. I'm just talking about stepping away from fear braking. Ya know that moment when you're about to hit the turn and you're thinking "hhmmmmm ... feels a bit fast, might just slow down a touch more". Well get that done sooner with deceleration rather than last minute braking, and after a while you can start going in a bit faster.
As Spank said, you shouldn't be braking mid turn, so removing the whole braking before a corner bit totally removes the issue of tipping in while under braking. If you get into the decelerating early there's much less risk of feeling under pressure to get on the brakes on lean. :)
Thanks for the advice.
dirtydog
03-01-13, 12:35 AM
An IAM observer that was out for a ride with kitkat a while ago (before she became an observer) checked her brakes when they stopped for a break as he was convinced she was braking and the light was broken as he was catching her up fast on engine braking on his Gsx1400.
I normally cover the brake when going into a corner, just in case really
As for engine braking, I'm on an IL4 and get enough engine braking for most corners, but I do downshift to decelerate.
My point here isn't to criticize using the brakes. Use them whenever you want! My point is, from personal experience, I find the whole riding experience much more enjoyable without using the brakes. It feels smoother and cornering feels more fluid. I'd just like to see some of the newbies slow down gradually for the corners and just have the confidence to go round them without feeling they have to brake all the time. It'll feel much better.
The more your newbie's ride with you the more they will get into how your smother progress actually results in quicker progress.
Spank86
03-01-13, 07:53 AM
Yes Sir....that's one rule that rings in my ears continually - "NEVER brake in corners". What I meant was that I usually grab the brakes (in a bit of a panic) just before entering corners; I guess I need a comfortable entry speed into corners.
you do.
If you start off slower in without the braking then you'll be able to push the speed up gradually as you get a feel for the corners going quicker each time until you can plow up to the corners, brake hard without panicing and still go round it far faster than before. It may seem like an odd way round to work up to a similar result but that panic will likely never go away if you keep hammering the brakes then going round the corner almost upright.
Skybaba
03-01-13, 06:17 PM
Thanks Spank, I appreciate the advise.
It does sound weird but makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
Start by getting smooth. Plan your speed and line early and drop your entry speed until you can be consistently smooth and confortable. After a while you'll get smooth. Then as a byproduct of being smooth you'll find you are also quicker.
If you hunt for smoothness, quickness will follow.
If you hunt just for speed you'll scare yourself senseless and more than likely not end up half as quick as the smooth riders.
TCochrane
04-01-13, 02:00 PM
I feel it's also worth noting that I have a couple excuses for not cornering as well as I normally do on that ride out:
I had a pillion ( not used to speedy cornering with pillion )
I discovered a couple days later that my tyre pressures were dangerously low ( 24psi! )
I had just fitted a GSXR1000 shock and hadn't set the correct pre-load yet as I hadn't had time
But all your advice is well noted and taken aboard :)
Spank86
04-01-13, 02:40 PM
You can make excuses to physics but don't expect it to make the Tarmac softer In Sympathy.
Although apparently if you're really pathetic it might soften your all with deer ****.
Skybaba
05-01-13, 09:21 PM
If you hunt for smoothness, quickness will follow.
If you hunt just for speed you'll scare yourself senseless and more than likely not end up half as quick as the smooth riders.
I'll bear this in mind, thanks :)
I feel it's also worth noting that I have a couple excuses for not cornering as well as I normally do on that ride out:
I had a pillion ( not used to speedy cornering with pillion )
I discovered a couple days later that my tyre pressures were dangerously low ( 24psi! )
I had just fitted a GSXR1000 shock and hadn't set the correct pre-load yet as I hadn't had time
But all your advice is well noted and taken aboard :)
-Don't corner speedy with a pillion, especially if its their first time
-Basic check that should be done
-suspension (bar the tyres) is the only thing keeping you in contact with the tarmac, more of a priority than a luxury.
I'm still tweaking mine now, 3 months on.
TCochrane
11-01-13, 07:21 PM
why should you not touch the clutch during a corner? i frequently slip the clutch when cornering slowly round difficult corners, why is this bad?
Going around a corner you need drive and stability. You need to be in the correct gear for the corner for the best control possible. You want to be going around the corner with a positive throttle and to accelerate out of the corner.
If your slipping the clutch you're in the wrong gear and haven't planned/judged ahead properly.
i slip the clutch going round corners too. but not above 5mph :)
TCochrane
11-01-13, 07:34 PM
i think one of the main problems I have is that under 10mph its jumpy with its power delivery so slipping the clutch helps smooth that out
(very slow cornering )
sounds like you need to get the throttle bodies balanced properley
TCochrane
11-01-13, 07:37 PM
sounds like it, its very jumpy and uneven at low speeds..
i think one of the main problems I have is that under 10mph its jumpy with its power delivery so slipping the clutch helps smooth that out
(very slow cornering )
That's not cornering, that's parking.
In all but the very tightest of mini roundabouts you should be powering round. If you need to slip the clutch when manoeuvring then do so. If your bike is lumpy at cornering speeds, fix your bike. ( maybe you've been more than 10 miles without putting in some injector cleaner, your bike is probably missing it)
On a very tight roundabout or junction you may have to slip the clutch and drag the rear brake but certainly not on the open road.
Oh and Jammy ......
I see most of the gm lot flash some brake lights into most corners (even when youre not blatting down a straight beforehand) but i wonder if that just comfort braking (ie: just applying some pressure to the lever but not really braking at all) or a slight bit of 'fear braking' as you mentioned..
Obviously i brake before most corners but that comes from fear/inexperience/lack of gonnads
Do you have any adjustments to make to this statement after last weekend?
i slip the clutch going round corners too. but not above 5mph :)
I use the back brake too! Does this mean I'm an addict?
i think one of the main problems I have is that under 10mph its jumpy with its power delivery so slipping the clutch helps smooth that out
(very slow cornering )
Do a rolling burn out, keeps your tyres warms, makes girls skirts fall down and gets you round the corner
Fallout
11-01-13, 09:00 PM
You do often need to slip the clutch at under 10mph. I did with my curvy. Actually I think I generally pulled the clutch in and coasted around really low speed mini roundabouts and stuff. Dragging the rear brake is fine too. I think when I said slipping the clutch was bad I was referring to open road riding.
Even on the tightest bends you should be able to get into the right gear and be on the gas round the corner. That was my point about slow in and no panic braking. Even on those silly little slow technical corners the same applies. Finish your deceleration before the corner and you can just pootle round it on the throttle in first, rather than braking late and slipping the clutch around it for last minute control. If you do it early enough you'll have the right throttle amount, even if its jumpy curvy throttle, because you gave yourself plenty of time.
But hey, whatever works really. Everyone rides differently and has weird habits. If something feels fine and controllable, then who's to say it's wrong?
The Idle Biker
11-01-13, 09:03 PM
Before I even apply the brakes my bum is already off the seat to the side I'm going to corner, and I butt the heels of my boots hard into the footpegs.
At the last moment I brake hard with the front brake! Then harder still. I sit to the back of the seat to stop the back wheel skipping.
Just before corner entry I apply the back brake and release the front, then trail brake into the apex of the corner.
I drag my knee on the ground and push up to stop the bike lowsiding and I try not to scrape my elbow on the floor.
This seems to work OK, the back brake is useful IMO.
:^o
Fallout
11-01-13, 09:06 PM
Liar! You never leave the house you lazy git!
The Idle Biker
11-01-13, 09:15 PM
I will be better this year. New improved medication. Some side effects but the counselling seems to nullify those, mostly. The voices come occasionally but the kill, kill stuff is quite rare nowadays.
Fallout
11-01-13, 09:28 PM
Good, cos my back is killing me from all that impromptu mid-rideout grave digging.
cb1000rsteve
11-01-13, 10:37 PM
When riding in a group I always make the rear brake light work to show others I'm slowing in speed!! Lots of corners I don't brake for as u say roll throttle and select gear only if not being followed
Spank86
12-01-13, 01:25 AM
Before I even apply the brakes my bum is already off the seat to the side I'm going to corner, and I butt the heels of my boots hard into the footpegs.
At the last moment I brake hard with the front brake! Then harder still. I sit to the back of the seat to stop the back wheel skipping.
Just before corner entry I apply the back brake and release the front, then trail brake into the apex of the corner.
I drag my knee on the ground and push up to stop the bike lowsiding and I try not to scrape my elbow on the floor.
This seems to work OK, the back brake is useful IMO.
:^o
Trail braking isn't actually on the back brake, it refers to coming off the front slowly as you progress through the corner, useful for loading the front and negotiating decreasing radius bends.
Using the back brake is either due to fear or poor planning (not that I'm saying I don't do it but I was always more of a reactor than a planner).
Good, cos my back is killing me from all that impromptu mid-rideout grave digging.
Plus the bags of quick lime over the back seat bugger my weight distribution.
@laurie, learn to love but not obey the voices, works for me.
The Idle Biker
12-01-13, 07:45 AM
Well I trail brake using the back brake on the track because I'm a wuss and I fret about the front washing out. I defo' don't plan to do it on the road though but it has been known under certain oops wtf situations.
Why were you up reading Wikipedia at that early hour?
Spank86
12-01-13, 11:57 AM
I wasn't I was up drinking and I didn't need to read Wikipedia.
Well I trail brake using the back brake on the track because I'm a wuss and I fret about the front washing out. I defo' don't plan to do it on the road though but it has been known under certain oops wtf situations.
Why were you up reading Wikipedia at that early hour?
Bear with me hear .
So you hoony up to the corner , Front brake . Then turn into the corner .with your back break on . You on or off the power?
I only know the tip it open throttle & the Oh $}{1te gently brake scrape sparks corner tech .
The Idle Biker
12-01-13, 07:56 PM
Errrrmmm well when I tip in I'm usually off the power unless it's wet in which case I try and keep a bit of throttle on and keep it neutral throttle all the way round the corner. Well, that's the plan anyway. ;-)
Thunderace
12-01-13, 08:10 PM
Errrrmmm well when I tip in I'm usually off the power unless it's wet in which case I try and keep a bit of throttle on and keep it neutral throttle all the way round the corner. Well, that's the plan anyway. ;-)
How the hell do you lot have the time to think all this stuff? Just get on it and ride it!
I've tried neutral throttle . It's ok ish.
Shut off as you go round makes me run wide.
So does touching the brakes . Witch is just the opposite you want to do when you over cook it.
Yes iv fallen off trying the brakes hard mid turn.
Any recommended reading to try this next dry track day
Thunderace
12-01-13, 08:38 PM
I've tried neutral throttle . It's ok ish.
Shut off as you go round makes me run wide.
So does touching the brakes . Witch is just the opposite you want to do when you over cook it.
Yes iv fallen off trying the brakes hard mid turn.
Any recommended reading to try this next dry track day
Keith Code "Twist of the Wrist"
Bordtea
13-01-13, 01:06 AM
Poweeeeeeer!
-Ralph-
13-01-13, 11:34 AM
Keith Code "Twist of the Wrist"
:winner:
My best advice to those wanting to learn, is go read/watch the advice of someone who knows what they are talking about.
My best advice to many of those posting 'advice' on this thread, is stop typing, 'cos parts of this thread really need a farmer with a big shovel and a hose!
Here's the Twist of the Wrist two video's. Excuse the crap acting, but the scenario on 'advice' on the first video from approx 2 minutes in to 2 minute 25 seconds, is exactly what is happening in this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyVdyUTnlDw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndU65pUKn9k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U-B7dcPO48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44_hMVhhtpI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGthvmC2pNw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0ncJ29DSB4
Skybaba
13-01-13, 10:09 PM
My best advice to those wanting to learn, is go read/watch the advice of someone who knows what they are talking about.
Maybe if I get to go with you guys to Ireland, I might learn a thing or two.
:riding: :riding:
The Idle Biker
13-01-13, 10:33 PM
Yeah thanks for the Read The Fecking Manual post Ralph. That's really really jolly fun and awfully helpful, I bet you're an ace.
-Ralph-
14-01-13, 01:59 AM
Yeah thanks for the Read The Fecking Manual post Ralph. That's really really jolly fun and awfully helpful, I bet you're an ace.
I'd say going and searching out 6 youtube links and posting them up for someone is pretty helpful yeah, especially when those links give good advice, unlike some of the incorrect BS posted here, which isn't helpful to anybody. Tell you what, next time somebody can benefit from knowing where the video is, I shan't bother, you know where it is now so you can post it up.
Sent from my VOYAGER using Tapatalk 2
Fallout
14-01-13, 07:28 AM
It'd be helpful if you told us what the incorrect BS is so we can debate it, rather than being vague and us all taking offence.
Sometimes its the way you say things ...
Of course its a good recommendation as TOTR is very informative in explaining what's happenning, especially if taken one bit of a time as its a lot to take in. But its also interesting to know what people do real world and then try and figure stuff out for yourself, without being reckless or dangerous of course. All part of the fun though.
Like my belief in using the rear brake for both road and track (I think contrary to popular consensus). IMO learning to use it well can be a benefit in all sorts of situations and as my SV generally doesn't do stoppies, might as well utilise the rear tyre. The trick, as I learned the hard way, is to sort the gearchanges first to settle the bike or be wary of/avoid locking the back on quick downshifts.
On the other hand, my mate in work says he disconnected the rear brake because he never used it (madness I tell you)! :)
That's a bit mad how are hill starts working out for him ....
-Ralph-
14-01-13, 09:38 AM
It'd be helpful if you told us what the incorrect BS is so we can debate it, rather than being vague and us all taking offence.
OK, but I won't be arguing with anybody who thinks what I've written is wrong. It's up to the reader to decide what they want to take on board and what they don't. This is why you should be taking riding advice from professionals, not internet forums.
I'm also sure you've figured out before now that I'm not worried who takes offence, so if somebody does all they will achieve is to upset themselves.
Other than those you really don't need to brake. All you need to do is roll off the throttle, select the right gear in plenty of time, then smooth power on through the bend
Totally depends what type of bike you are on as already highlighted by TommyH, MarkH, and a few others.
Your brakes are designed to slow or stop the bike, they are the BEST way to select your corner entry speed and give the the highest level of control and precision over your corner entry speed, way better than throttle off or downshift.
All you are doing is giving yourself more time to deal with the corner, so that a lack of confidence and ability don't leave you ending up in a panic.
Not one person has mentioned limit points or how they work, or how they should be used to read corners and choose your corner entry speed.
No need to unsettle the bike or quickly go from brake to throttle just before the corner.
Braking up to a bend does not cause this. Poor brake and/or throttle control does. There's a whole section on it in the videos.
If you're a newbie you shouldn't be braking whilst IN the corner, if you're braking in the run up to it that's fine but not while you're going round
It is absolutely fine for a newbie to trail the rear brake round a corner, if they feel they are uncomfortable with the corner speed. You can't expect a newbie to have planned corner speed perfectly every time, so it will happen on occasion that they feel they are going a bit too quick. My better to scrub some speed off with the rear and get round the corner, than have a panic and repeat the accident shown at 11 mins 10 on the first video.
A good tip for newbies not to lock up the rear, is at all times try to imagine your rear brake pedal is one of your testicles, and apply pressure appropriately!
-Don't corner speedy with a pillion, especially if its their first time
I wouldn't do anything speedy with a pillion if it's their first time. What's the point in trying to impress them with how quick the bike is, scaring them, then they get off petrified never want to get on the back of a bike again. So many people take people out on the bike just to show them how fast it goes.
But the statement "Don't corner speedy with a pillion" - Why??
Trail braking isn't actually on the back brake
You can 'trail' the front or the rear into a corner, it's correct terminology for both. In fact the terminology existed for the rear long before it became used to describe the front. The clue is in the definition of the word the 'trail' - to drag something along behind you.
Errrrmmm well when I tip in I'm usually off the power unless it's wet in which case I try and keep a bit of throttle on and keep it neutral throttle all the way round the corner. Well, that's the plan anyway. ;-)
Throttle control rule number 1, second episode on the videos, 2 mins 30 seconds.
This is a little misleading as it's advise designed for getting the best corner speed and lowest lap times round the track. If I were to continually roll on the throttle throughout the remainder of the turn, on my Daytona 955i, I'd slingshot out of every bend at 100mph.
But the principals discussed in the videos regarding load on front and back tyres, and suspension dynamics, are still true for road riding. Your throttle should be opening gently as you tip in and you should be on a slightly positive throttle all the way through the bend.
A closed or neutral throttle is slowing you down, unnecessarily loading your front tyre (when the back has the bigger contact patch), unsettling the dynamics of your bike and will almost certainly result in you taking a bad line through the corner.
All very good advice I think, except I would say the point made by Fallout about unsettling the bike could be more to do with suspension. So as a stock SV suspension has a tendency to pogo, particularly once you start getting the measure of the bike and ride a bit faster, I found that hard braking before a corner and then re-opening the throttle did unsettle the suspension. But this is obviously remedied by setting up/improving the suspension. For normal road riding it shouldn't unsettle the bike.
-Ralph-
14-01-13, 10:00 AM
All very good advice I think, except I would say the point made by Fallout about unsettling the bike could be more to do with suspension. So as a stock SV suspension has a tendency to pogo, particularly once you start getting the measure of the bike and ride a bit faster, I found that hard braking before a corner and then re-opening the throttle did unsettle the suspension. But this is obviously remedied by setting up/improving the suspension. For normal road riding it shouldn't unsettle the bike.
SV suspension isn't the best, but it's a lot better than say my XT600, or an old Harley Davidson. You can corner fast and smooth on any bike, it's just a case of having the suspension settled before you tip in, then holding a positive throttle.
All this stuff is impossible to get across in a forum post. Anyone who comes riding with us and wants to be helped will be introduced to the "roadcraft" style of riding. This was originally posted in the GM section which is usually read by people who join us and so can engage in some practical demonstrations.
Combination of roadcraft and twist of the wrist contain all the "data" you need but for a majority of people, reading books is not the way to learn how to do it.
Monkey-see, monkey-do. However some monkeys refuse to listen and have a goldfish-like retention capability.
The person with the cornering/pillion queries has attended a few GM ride-outs and if prepared to listed would benefit from group wisdom.
- Ralph- If you take a black-white view on any of this it's all 100% right and 100% wrong. Any vaguely sane person knows to take anonymous forum advice with a pinch of salt. If they took all forum posts as gospel they'd be in a right old state and their bike would be in bits anyway having TRS mods, reg-rec mods and the like so they'd not actually get any riding in.
All I can report is that pretty much all the regular GM riders have become safer, smoother and faster over the last season so we must actually know something.
Fallout's initial point was that dropping the "comfort braking" which does nothing to adjust speed or stability is usually a sign of not being comfortable with your corner entry. Fixing entry often removes the need for comfort braking and massively improves the enjoyment of riding a bike.
Spank86
14-01-13, 10:02 AM
It is absolutely fine for a newbie to trail the rear brake round a corner, if they feel they are uncomfortable with the corner speed. You can't expect a newbie to have planned corner speed perfectly every time, so it will happen on occasion that they feel they are going a bit too quick. My better to scrub some speed off with the rear and get round the corner, than have a panic and repeat the accident shown at 11 mins 10 on the first video.
true, perhaps I should have clarified that but I was trying to get the point accross that he would be better entering slower and allowing himself to accelerate through than going in at a speed that leaves him grabbing the brake through fear.
IN CONTEXT the guy (skybaba) was saying he brakes corner after corner and I was replying directly to that. He'll go quicker and safer if he starts going slower.
You can 'trail' the front or the rear into a corner, it's correct terminology for both. In fact the terminology existed for the rear long before it became used to describe the front. The clue is in the definition of the word the 'trail' - to drag something along behind you.
not the only definition of trail, in this case it originally referred to the way you trail off (release)the brake slowly through a tightening corner.
The thing thats foxing me is this loading of the tyre thing
I normal have a positive throttle after the tip it in bit.
But if I put my back brake on for an opening corner radius won't this load the front up?
And if it's opening up I'm going to want to gas it harder but push the outside bar ( the RSV will tighten the turn if you gas it) countering the power ?
Spank86
14-01-13, 10:04 AM
I could be getting my physics in a twist but I dont think the back brake will load the front?
-Ralph-
14-01-13, 10:11 AM
- Ralph- If you take a black-white view on any of this it's all 100% right and 100% wrong. Any vaguely sane person knows to take anonymous forum advice with a pinch of salt.
There's only two colours on my screen mate, black text, white background. As there is no other interaction you can only take what you read at face value.
The fact a newbie doesn't know what advise is good and what advise isn't, means he has to take the whole lot with a pinch of salt, meaning many come away from the thread unable to know what to believe and probably more confused than when they started.
It is certainly possible to get good advice across in black and white text, but as soon as you mix some bad advice into the middle of it, it all looses it's value. That's why IMO the best way to learn riding techniques on a computer screen, is riding videos or ebooks, containing only good advice, and produced by professionals.
That's why IMO the best way to learn riding techniques on a computer screen, is riding videos or ebooks, containing only good advice, and produced by professionals.
Wrong wrong wrong.
You read TOTW and go adding power 100% of the time. - Dead in a ditch
You read a bit of roadcraft. Skip over the SSV bits go straight into positioning for view and have a head-on with the first lorry that appears on a left hand bend.
The only way to learn is to start going slow and then get coaching from someone you trust. Once you've got the basics absolutely back it up with the books and vids. Until then it's a recipe for disaster.
Use your computer screen to determine who is worth listening to then arrange to go for a ride with them. In between that use it to surf the web for decent pie recipes.
I've also just read back and to be honest apart from TIB's bit about track riding (and the responses to that) it's all fairly consistent. Start slow, plan and get it all done early. Don't change too much while in the bend and don't coast round bends. Pretty sound advice for a newbie. Not really that sure what your beef is.
The bit about the quick-lime to dispose of the bodies is a bit unnecessary now we've found the pig farms as they deal with the disposal far more effectively and without the need to dig a hole in the first place.
Fallout
14-01-13, 10:47 AM
I've watched twist of the wrist and it's brilliant for learning to ride quickly and smoothly. I've tried to adjust my riding to follow it's advice, but I think it's something you should watch at a certain stage. When you're trying to ride quickly, going into corners fairly confidently and finding you're getting it wrong, and it's feeling wrong, and you can't work out why, then it's a great resource. If you're still at the stage when you're scaring yourself on corners trying to ride at a fairly normal pace then I think it's too early to be trying to take on board all the good tips it offers.
My whole point here wasn't to suggest a good fast controlled way of riding. It was just to encourage the removal of panic/safety braking by swapping it for early deceleration and having the confidence to just go round the corner without scrubbing off extra unnecessary speed. If someone is still on the brake even though they're going slowly into a corner already then they're not ready for TOTW imo. You have to at least be comfortable all the time riding normally before you start complicating your life with the correct way to use all the controls every corner.
Although obviously popping a wheelie to take the edge off a tank-slapper is good advice for every newbie.
Fallout
14-01-13, 10:54 AM
Obviously. I think wheelies should be taught on the DAS - Direct Access to Stunts.
-Ralph-
14-01-13, 11:05 AM
Wrong wrong wrong
I respect your opinions Mark, and you have made some good posts in this thread, but they are your opinions, nothing more.
You read TOTW and go adding power 100% of the time. - Dead in a ditch
You read a bit of roadcraft. Skip over the SSV bits go straight into positioning for view and have a head-on with the first lorry that appears on a left hand bend.
Where did I say you should go adding power 100% of the time? In fact I specifically stated that this was advice for track riding and you should use a "slightly positive throttle"
Roadcraft was the first book I read at 16 years of age nearly 21 years ago, and I'm still alive, well and riding safely today. I have an up to date copy and re-read about every two years. It was my father who insisted I read it before I got on a bike, and he had 40 years riding experience with very few accidents (only when he was doing something he knew to be risky).
The only way to learn
Really? There's only one way to learn how to handle a bike and that happens to be YOUR way?
Use your computer screen to determine who is worth listening to then arrange to go for a ride with them
How can you determine who is worth listening to, if you don't have a clue what advice is good or bad?
The one and only opinion that I'm trying to get across here, is that threads on internet forums are NOT a good way of learning.
I knew the thread would go this way in the first place, with people like you believing that they are the only ones with a valid opinion and trying to knock my opinions down with posts like 'wrong, wrong, wrong'. That is why I was deliberately vague, posted what I believed to be the right advice in the first place and didn't identify those people who I believed were posting BS.
That opinion is not going to change and I said I wouldn't be arguing with anybody over it, so I am now unsubscribing from this thread. Reply if you wish (for the benefit of others reading), but I won't be reading it. It takes two to tango and I don't want to dance.
Roadcraft was the first book I read at 16 years of age nearly 21 years ago, and I'm still alive, well and riding safely today. I have an up to date copy and re-read about every two years. It was my father who insisted I read it before I got on a bike, and he had 40 years riding experience with very few accidents (only when he was doing something he knew to be risky).
Ralph may well not read this but for those that do..... This is the very point. He read the book BUT also backed it up with coaching from someone he trusted. In this case his father with 40+ years of experience.
Books and videos are useful tools but are no substitute for practical guidance from someone you can trust.
And just in case Ralph is reading this by accident; in my opinion it is very wrong to suggest a newbie learns the basics from ToTW videos for the very reason Fallout mentions a couple of posts back. You need to learn to walk before you run and ToTW is advanced running. 10/10 for taking offence with out of context quotes. Not entirely sure I accused you of suggesting power all the time more a suggestion that anyone taking a skim read of ToTW will think "if in doubt add power is the way to go".
He's likely to read it by "accident", can't help himself. Funny thing is you're both making the same point but in different ways. At some point a newbie will no longer be a newbie, just an experienced rider with bad habits or a good rider. How they get there can only really be done through experience. Some things are definately down to preference or recommended best practice but there is never just one way.
For example, Keith Code recommends blipping. I was fascinated with this as a new rider. The concept is easy enough to understand but the technique a little harder to get ride. But what the vid does not and maybe cannot explain is how using the technique affects a V-Twin differently from an I4. Because of engine braking the back is more likely to lock up or skip when blipping from very high RPM's. Therefore it might be smoother for some to practice feathering the clutch rather than letting it out quickly. Of course, learning to do this in a way which is comfortable for each rider is very subjective and down to an individuals "feel" for what works for him/her.
The same goes for any technique. There are some things that work better than others but how to get to that point is sometimes down to the individual and will always require a it of trial and error. Having the opportunity to observe someone demonstrating a good technique helps as its puts the concept into practice and demonstrates what to do/what not to do. The open/neutral throttle thing is one of the most difficult to demonstrate and any new rider putting this into practice for the first time will have to trust the technique and do it before realising it will work for them.
Back to the original topic, I'll brake decreasing radius corners where I can see the 'limit point' going away from me. Otherwise I don't generally need to because of the engine braking. And, as I said I do use some back brake if necessary in a corner if I've got it wrong.
Back to the original topic, I'll brake decreasing radius corners where I can see the 'limit point' going away from me. Otherwise I don't generally need to because of the engine braking. And, as I said I do use some back brake if necessary in a corner if I've got it wrong.
Maybe an inappropriate place for pedantry however ....In a decreasing radius bend the limit point is likely to be coming towards you not going away from you assuming all other view impacting elements (hedges, parked elephants etc) to be consistent.
Spank86
14-01-13, 12:33 PM
IMO the real problem with advice on a forum is it can be all too easy to take a very specific piece of advice directed as a reply to a question or comment from a poster and decide that it's blanket advice for any situation and any reader.
Maybe an inappropriate place for pedantry however ....In a decreasing radius bend the limit point is likely to be coming towards you not going away from you assuming all other view impacting elements (hedges, parked elephants etc) to be consistent.
Sorry increase ... you know what I meant :)
Sorry increase ... you know what I meant :)
But if it's increasing and going away from you you'd be adding power at that point anyway.....
Back to the original topic, I'll brake decreasing radius corners where I can see the 'limit point' coming towards me. Otherwise I don't generally need to because of the engine braking. And, as I said I do use some back brake if necessary in a corner if I've got it wrong.
Is probably the correct combination or words even if not necessarily the correct combination of actions in some cases :)
Fallout
14-01-13, 01:22 PM
Any advice I give is based on my own experiences and is purely "this is how it works for me" advice. I never claim it to be gospel or the only way and generally add a comment like "this is how I do it, but whatever works for you" or "I'd like to see people doing this" etc. I never say "I am right. Take this as gospel, you big fat turd".
At the end of the day it's dark, unless you're in Alaska during their summer season. But that aside, at the end of the day (about 5pm at the moment), you have to take everything on the net with a pinch of salt. Even people who are experts and know 100% what they're talking about get it wrong or misread the question/problem and post an inappropriate answer. The trick is to listen to what people say, and use it as a basis to go off and do your own research or try it out. My concept of not braking at all when possible isn't 'right' but it certainly worked for me to help my confidence and feel smoother, so it should work for some others, and hence why I started this post.
But if it's increasing and going away from you you'd be adding power at that point anyway.....
Is probably the correct combination or words even if not necessarily the correct combination of actions in some cases :)
Thanks
TCochrane
14-01-13, 01:32 PM
As the subject of this original topic of discussion - the 'newbie' - I am thoroughly confused now haha
As the subject of this original topic of discussion - the 'newbie' - I am thoroughly confused now haha
Tim, Simples. Look where you are going and get everything in place much earlier than you do today that way you'll not need to be changing gear or panic braking on bends.
TCochrane
14-01-13, 01:40 PM
Now how simple was that? Thanks Mark :P I will work on doing that when the weather improves!
Now how simple was that? Thanks Mark :P I will work on doing that when the weather improves!
And if you find you've over-cooked it into a down-hill tightening hairpin with a tank slapper on then refer to the appropriate section in ToTW, pop a wheelie, look where you want to go and hope for the best*
PLEASE NOTE: This is not advise. This is a joke!
Dicky Ticker
14-01-13, 01:52 PM
Slow in/fast out------adjust your speed accordingly before the corner and your suspension has settled using slight acceleration throughout the corner gives better control.
I do not use the front brake during cornering UNLESS emergency but if I have been slightly over enthusiastic I will trail a bit of rear on road riding.
Perhaps I am a wimp but it makes for a smoother riding style on normal road riding.
Riding on track is a completely different style as you tend to be wanting every second of speed.Tracks don't tend to have potholes or drains mid corner and a good even surface so you can use to its full width,easing brakes as required during the cornering
Littlepeahead
14-01-13, 01:55 PM
I live in Chelmsford, we have the A12 from London to the coast following the old Roman road. The Romans didn't like twisties so I don't need to worry about corners.
Spank86
14-01-13, 02:02 PM
Now how simple was that? Thanks Mark :P I will work on doing that when the weather improves!
Marks aim is seldom to get you to take the next corner fast, it's to get you to take all the future corners well and then you'll start taking them fast as a consequence.
It's frustrating if you're impatient (e.g. young) and I'm glad I didn't know him ten years ago when I first learnt the basics by engaging in near death experiences on every bend, I prefer doing things that way but it's not great for your life expectancy.
I live in Chelmsford, we have the A12 from London to the coast following the old Roman road. The Romans didn't like twisties so I don't need to worry about corners.
????
AR12 route ???What Happend there:smt081
The best way to learn is by listening, watching and putting into practice. When things 'click' you understand them and can then implement that in to your riding. When one of your skills start to develop, the others follow suit as they all go hand in hand; reading a road, vanishing points, planning ahead, observation etc etc
Mikey10
15-01-13, 07:50 PM
All this advice and teaching is getting OTT. Riding a bike was no different before Keith Code and Road craft etc...
I think I'll just ride my bike.
Spank86
15-01-13, 07:56 PM
You could do that.
It'll even work for a lot of people but everyone eventually reaches a level when self improvement peaks and that's when external sources become extremely helpful. If you want to keep getting better that is.
Dicky Ticker
15-01-13, 08:01 PM
We can all read books and mags on how it is done but often a little bit of personal advice to the individual can be more helpful
Mikey10
15-01-13, 08:02 PM
I don't want to get into any debates or arguments but I always look at Rossi, Lorenzo Stoner all of whom never read Keith Code to get to their level just practice and gain experience. Most people who do a track day with out having any advanced training come away better and all they have done is ride their own bike with out professional advice round a track for a day.
Spank86
15-01-13, 08:04 PM
I'll be with you when I've finished laughing...
You think stoner Lorenzo and Rossi got where they are today through raw talent and no training or external input whether through Keith code or someone else.
No wonder you don't want to get into a discussion.
Thunderace
15-01-13, 08:07 PM
Not disagreeing with you Mikey on any particular point, but I had been riding 12 yrs when I met Mark_h, I was pretty damn quick when I met him, but now in his own words "I've created a monster". I am now pretty smooth and very fast, as are most of the GM after various tid bits of advice from Mark! Cheers DAD!;)
Mikey10
15-01-13, 08:13 PM
Spank86 - I have Lorenzo's autobiography and his dad taught him how to crash a bike at a young age and further riding in Spanish championships etc... he learnt the tricks of racing and he became better and got to were he is now so no not with out advice but he did'nt go out his way for the advice he just rode the bike and learnt through feeling his way. Most racers always say theirs no substitute to time on your own bike not watch someone else do it.
Thunderace
15-01-13, 08:15 PM
@Spank-Damn you for posting what I was thinking!:rolleyes:
PSST I think this guy may technically be an idiot?
Spank86 - I have Lorenzo's autobiography and his dad taught him how to crash a bike at a young age and further riding in Spanish championships etc... he learnt the tricks of racing and he became better and got to were he is now so no not with out advice but he did'nt go out his way for the advice he just rode the bike and learnt through feeling his way. Most racers always say theirs no substitute to time on your own bike not watch someone else do it.
Racing is very different to that of road riding, hence the different techniques they may use to become faster/better at racing. On track there is no danger to them apart from themselves.
Spank86
15-01-13, 08:38 PM
PSST I think this guy may technically be an idiot?
Oh I doubt it, not technically, even an imbecile would be harsh. A moron at worst.
Technically.
His credulity suggests it anyway. I suppose the one thing that riding on a track helps with is usually there's a lot of people to learn from riding right in front of you. So that is learning from others, basically what we're suggesting when we say following mark.
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