Multiple low sides.

[Matt-EUC]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/30/ararasa2.jpg

At this corner at a Sainsbury's, at least 3 bikes have low sided and at least two have nearly lost the front.

The speed limit is 5mph and all the bikes have adhered to this (+VAT +import tax)

There doesn't seem to be anything on the ground and the Tarmac is 1 year old and well rubbered.

There was, however, a common theme with the last two bikes. They had only ridden a very short distance which leads me to believe their tyres were cold. The others didn't have cold tyres though.

Any ideas??




This is Sainsbury's Portswood, for those in and around Southampton. I don't want to do paperwork for you too!!!

[jambo]

A shiny English pound to the person who posts the first knee down sequence which doesn't result in a crash.







No?

[Bibio]

does this sansburys have a patrol station?

[Matt-EUC]

Err.. I wouldn't recommend it...

[Matt-EUC]

does this sansburys have a patrol station?

No. It doesn't have a petrol station either.

[Fallout]

If it's not cold tyres I would put my money on either old rubber or touching the white lines, or simply being rubbish and braking, or being REALLY rubbish and just falling over since it's quite tight.

[Matt-EUC]

The poor little 16 year old who fell off today was on a 13 plate. And the guy I was talking to just now had 1000 mile old BT021's.

[Bibio]

well i think i can see 2 manhole covers so that might be a problem. other times it might just be 'idiot' riders.

[Matt-EUC]

Lots of cars slide here too.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/30/ara6e9ym.jpg

[Matt-EUC]

well i think i can see 2 manhole covers so that might be a problem. other times it might just be 'idiot' riders.

Both manhole covers are well off line.

[Bibio]

double apex. drivers/riders steer into corner then discover it tightens up so hit the barkes.

[yorkie_chris]

Supermarket car parks use the most hardwearing/cheap tarmac they can possibly get and it's slippier than road stuff.

[Matt-EUC]

double apex. drivers/riders steer into corner then discover it tightens up so hit the barkes.


It rides like a constant bend.

Supermarket car parks use the most hardwearing/cheap tarmac they can possibly get and it's slippier than road stuff.

I disagree, in this case at least, it's really quite grippy as far as supermarket Tarmac goes. And it's heated which is quite cool (or not).

[Matt-EUC]

It's only this corner as well. The entire rest of the carpark is absolutely fine. Even at 5mph +VAT +import tax +tip +compulsory gratuity.

[Spank86]

This is Sainsbury's Portswood, for those in and around Southampton. I don't want to do paperwork for you too!!!
then I wont come in and complain, somebody get me a camera

[Matt-EUC]

then I wont come in and complain, somebody get me a camera

I don't understand...

[Spank86]

when I plough round it at silly speed and discover im wrong

[Matt-EUC]

I see.

Well you're welcome to do it now. I finish at 6 but I'll be back Friday if you want to hurt yourself then instead.

[Spank86]

working friday

[collis]

i'd say there is too much oil in the tarmac, especially with the damp roads it is just too slippery, I've had several scary butt eating seat moments in supermarket carparks, they always use a mix that has a large ammount of oil in it to keep the tarmac looking prestine and black this unfortunately means that the road suface is very slippery especially when wet/damp.
They have also (from the second photo) used pavement grade tarmac for the road surface, go and look at a new housing estate where the council have adopted the roads, you will see what I mean, the pavement has a dense hard compacted surcafe that makes it grippy for things like motorised buggies and pushchairs whilst also being very smooth for the user, roads always have a more coarse (sp?) surface that makes grip better for cars/bikes etc, it also allows the blind to know where they are by the feel of the surface.


Of course I could be wrong...

[Bibio]

the corner is tightening up, you can clearly see this with the chevrons going to a single line at the crossing. people are misjudging their speed and loosing it. also might be people walking out on the crossing and driver lamping the brakes on.

[Matt-EUC]

the corner is tightening up, you can clearly see this with the chevrons going to a single line at the crossing. people are misjudging their speed and loosing it. also might be people walking out on the crossing and driver lamping the brakes on.

Very true. Very true.

Now, in this mountain of paperwork I'm doing, I have to suggest improvements to prevent this happening in the future.

I'm ****ed if I know...

[Spank86]

big inflatable pads on the outside.

And a sign that says "3 crashes here last year"

[collis]

big inflatable pads on the outside.

And a sign that says "3 crashes here last year"
Make that a matrix sign that goes up by 1 everytime someone looses it

A crash barrier would help people see the bend better and probably judge it easier.

[Bibio]

kerbs (central reservation) where chevrons are or narrow the tarmac and remove chevrons. put crossing further down so drivers have a chance to straighten up again before applying brakes.

[Spank86]

a massive bank so when people slide they can go up it like a wall of death.

[Matt-EUC]

I like the central reservation idea. Almost everybody cuts the corner.

I also thought of putting a magnet activated barrier there to force people to slow down.

[Matt-EUC]

a massive bank so when people slide they can go up it like a wall of death.

Now that, would be awesome.

[Braindead101]

I don't know whether it's just the photo, but the curve of the boundary wall looks different to the curve of the road. Could that be putting drivers off?

[Matt-EUC]

Possibly but that's something we can't change.

[Braindead101]

I also like the idea of moving the crossing. What about putting it before the bend?

[Spank86]

Possibly but that's something we can't change.
you could with a barrier in front of it.

what bout putting those lines on the road where each one is closer to the one before so it encourages people to slow down?

[Matt-EUC]

Only useful comment you've made Adam. Well done. That one might even be the one they go with.

[Runako]

Simple. Add a mini roundabout.

[Matt-EUC]

Simple. Add a mini roundabout.

Why?? There's only one exit and people would simply ignore it.

[JM2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie_chris http://forums.sv650.org/images/ca_morpheus_gray/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?p=2914827#post2914827)
Supermarket car parks use the most hardwearing/cheap tarmac they can possibly get and it's slippier than road stuff.

I disagree, in this case at least, it's really quite grippy as far as supermarket Tarmac goes. And it's heated which is quite cool (or not).

But they do use different tarmac than that for normal (ordinary) road use.

Heated ! This is worrying; why heated and is this keeping excess oils wet.

Solutions:-
No to crash barriers - have you seen the mess they can cause bikers.
Ask those that have both come off and the near misses (if reported) what they think happend - you might just get the answer.
Get the surface relaid with 'ordinary' finish asphalt, get the crossing in somewhere with a straight section - on the bend is poor, improve the markings.

[Matt-EUC]

Why thank you. That's helpful.

[Spank86]

Only useful comment you've made Adam. Well done. That one might even be the one they go with.

I'm only allowed one a month.

you should be honoured I wasted it on this.

I hope nobody asks me how to cure aids because its back to useless sarcasm now.

[Runako]

Why?? There's only one exit and people would simply ignore it.

The main problem is target fixation on that crossing and kerb. The main solution is getting people to slow down significantly before taking the curb. I doubt anyone slides at 5mph, therefore I doubt anyone who slides is actually doing 5mph. So whatever solution you come up with it will involve moving that crossing off the corner exit so the post and curb don't get target fixated on the way in.

[Matt-EUC]

Use a Johnny.

[Red Herring]

Paint the kerbs red and white and put a gravel trap on the outside. If people want to ride around as if they are on a race track you might as well make it look like one.....!

Why is anybody riding around a supermarket car park anywhere even remotely close to crashing speeds? What's the approach to that location like?

On a more serious note you could put a small speed hump before it, about where the photo was taken from. This would slow people down and also reduce the risk of them getting caught out by somebody stopping to give way at the crossing.

[Matt-EUC]

Paint the kerbs red and white and put a gravel trap on the outside. If people want to ride around as if they are on a race track you might as well make it look like one.....!

Why is anybody riding around a supermarket car park anywhere even remotely close to crashing speeds? What's the approach to that location like?

On a more serious note you could put a small speed hump before it, about where the photo was taken from. This would slow people down and also reduce the risk of them getting caught out by somebody stopping to give way at the crossing.

I was standing on a speed hump when I took the picture.

[Red Herring]

In that case I have no sympathy, stop trying to interfere and let nature take it's toll. Probably better for them to crash there and learn than to do it somewhere they could hurt someone else. How much pedestrian movement is there on that pavement, maybe some railings to protect them?

[Bluepete]

Leave it be.

You can't fix stupid.

[Red Herring]

I was standing on a speed hump when I took the picture.

It looks like the speed humps don't go all the way across the road but are the square ones that bikes can ride round. Is that still the case?

[Matt-EUC]

It looks like the speed humps don't go all the way across the road but are the square ones that bikes can ride round. Is that still the case?

Yes. I was going to mention that but I was driving.

[minimorecambe]

I go to that Sainsburys on a daily basis as I work around the corner and I have never had a problem with that corner.
Admittedly I am in a car but on a bike I do not think I would have a problem either.

[Matt-EUC]

I go to that Sainsburys on a daily basis as I work around the corner and I have never had a problem with that corner.
Admittedly I am in a car but on a bike I do not think I would have a problem either.

If you go there every day, why haven't you said hello to me? :(

[minimorecambe]

Because it's optional

[Matt-EUC]

Leave it be.

You can't fix stupid.

Don't have a choice. I have to put forward suggestions that could decrease the likelihood of this happening again. After EVERY incident.

[embee]

All those skid marks are not leaving any rubber on the road (only on the kerbstones), all those white scratching marks would suggest to me that the grit is coming free from the surface and acting like ball bearings.

My bet would be on an unsuitable surface.

Probably completely wrong.

[DarrenSV650S]

All those skid marks are not leaving any rubber on the road (only on the kerbstones), all those white scratching marks would suggest to me that the grit is coming free from the surface and acting like ball bearings.

My bet would be on an unsuitable surface.

Probably completely wrong.

Looks like the stones off the white wall maybe. Sweep the road regularly and watch out for kids playing football against it :)

Or have some smooth render put on it

[svrich]

Why not lay one of those high grip surfaces like the council do on junctions? Quick, cheaper than new tarmac, and highlights a high risk area.

[Bluepete]

Why not lay one of those high grip surfaces like the council do on junctions? Quick, cheaper than new tarmac, and highlights a high risk area.

Shell grip?

Good stuff.

[Spank86]

Because it's optional
and strongly discouraged.

[Red Herring]

Don't have a choice. I have to put forward suggestions that could decrease the likelihood of this happening again. After EVERY incident.

That's easy, they fell off + they will take more care next time = less likely to happen again next time they visit!

[yorkie_chris]

Don't have a choice. I have to put forward suggestions that could decrease the likelihood of this happening again. After EVERY incident.

Did they pay attention to the last suggestions you made?

[Matt-EUC]

Shell grip?

Good stuff.

I agree. Suggested it already, and the manager responded with a look that meant a catagorical "no"


and strongly discouraged.

D!ck..


That's easy, they fell off + they will take more care next time = less likely to happen again next time they visit!

They won't accept that unfortunately...

[Matt-EUC]

Did they pay attention to the last suggestions you made?

What do you think? Lol.

[Amadeus]

How about suggesting they build a flyover or a bypass?

[yorkie_chris]

What do you think? Lol.

So tell them the same thing again! Or tell them to fook off, if they didn't act on previous then what's the point.

[Bluepete]

If you've no budget, it's clearly a back covering exercise and you have no realistic way of dealing with it.

If your job relies on putting the suggestions in, do so, safe in the knowledge that the decisions are made above your pay grade.

Accept the fact that the vast majority of the British motoring public are incapable of seeing beyond their windscreen and will merrily crash with joyful abandon at the first opportunity whilst blaming everyone else.

[Matt-EUC]

You have such a way with words Pete.

[Bluepete]

Years of becoming more and more cynical does that to a man.

Pete ;)

Ps, I'm lovely in real life!

[minimorecambe]

So where would you be at Sainsburys?
Just so I know how best to avoid you!

[Matt-EUC]

I'm the 6ft fat ginger bloke walking around the carpark in a fluorescent yellow vest. You cant miss me.

[minimorecambe]

I'll aim better next time then

[Red Herring]

Years of becoming more and more cynical does that to a man.

Pete ;)

Ps, I'm lovely in real life!

Just wait until you get (sink) to my level.......:(

[tigersaw]

Tell them to go to Waitrose instead

[Bibio]

I'm the 6ft fat ginger bloke walking around the carpark in a fluorescent yellow vest. You cant miss me.

so your a trolly dolly :D

[Matt-EUC]

so your a trolly dolly :D

Nope. Far more evil. I'm the knob who gives out parking tickets XD

[Sir Trev]

Why not lay one of those high grip surfaces like the council do on junctions? Quick, cheaper than new tarmac, and highlights a high risk area.

Did you mean the paint-on type stuff? Often applied to help idiots stop quickly at roundabouts and junctions when they realise too late that the lights have changed against them? Usually a bright colour to help blind people realise they are in a hazardous area?

Way cheaper than Shellgrip (which as said is wonderful stuff) and if your bosses still gripe you could use masonry paint for the same effect...

[454697819]

its most likley a combination of things -

is it used as the delivery route too? if not its probably diesel on the tarmac - combined with SMA - Stone mastic asphalt - well known for being slippery when new ish tyres - wet - cold, oily - because its wednesday -

basically its slippery stuff and there might just be enough to make it like ice -

Clean it with a strong degreasing compound for driveways and see if it stops it for a while?

[Tomor]

Nope. Far more evil. I'm the knob who gives out parking tickets XD

C***

[Bluepete]

C***


Yeah, but everyone ignores them anyway!

Pete ;)

[Tomor]

Sorry, I put 'cool' not sure why it starred it ;)

[Jason H]

Move the Crossing to where you are standing. It is in a stupid place being where it is. Also Shellgrip would useful and you'd only need to put it on the outside lane.

Perhaps get someone to go in and complain to the store manager getting them to suggest hese thing after you have already done so.

Also on a seperate note of your ticketing duties...W*****!! =D

J

[embee]

I wonder if your local highways agency would measure the skid resistance (http://www.trl.co.uk/facilities/mobile_test_equipment/scrim.htm) for you, at least that would put a real measurement on the subject and eliminate all the speculation and guesswork.

If the surface grip is OK then it's down to the geography. If the surface is bad it needs replacing/treating.

Of course if there is actually no budget anyway, you may as well just say it's the fairies doing it and move along.

[yorkie_chris]

Of course if there is actually no budget anyway, you may as well just say it's the fairies doing it and move along.

Exactly.

I'm no HSE expert but surely if you've identified a problem, asked for solutions and then ignored them that's WORSE than burying your head in the sand and saying it's just incompetent drivers!

[Matt-EUC]

I think it's probably a back covering thing. I doubt very much that Sainsbury's intends on doing anything.

[yorkie_chris]

That's my point, I don't see how it fulfills the function of a back covering exercise.

[Matt-EUC]

I work for a separate company. It would be me covering my back.

[Spank86]

I think it's probably a back covering thing. I doubt very much that Sainsbury's intends on doing anything.
then make sure you cover yours.

If your recommendations are down in writing then there's less chance of it coming back on you.

That's my point, I don't see how it fulfills the function of a back covering exercise.

national organisation probably demand the review, local managers veto any spending on cost grounds.

when it all goes to hell they just find a scapegoat, matt needs to make sure its the manager who says no NOT him.

[Matt-EUC]

I work for a separate company. It would be me covering my back.

...

[Spank86]

then cover it!

doesn't matter if they implement your proposals, its better for you if they DON'T!

As long as you've made the suggestions then it cant come back on you whatever company you work for.

[Matt-EUC]

Indeed.

[Bibio]

so as a parking attendant your responsible for health and safety of the carpark?

[Spank86]

I vote we all turn up on cheapo bikes, low side and sue the crap out of sainsburys.

After all we have evidence that they've known of a problem and failed in their duty of care by not rectifying it.

[Matt-EUC]

so as a parking attendant your responsible for health and safety of the carpark?

No, but if **** happens I have to fill out a stack of paperwork. If I see something happen, the paperwork triples.

In the paperwork, there is a segment in which I must put suggestions for how to avoid this in the future. Like at another store, people kept reversing into a pillar that is conveniently in a cars blind spot. I wrote that they should put a sign on the wall in front of the parking space that tells people to look for that pillar. I also suggested putting a convex mirror there to help them.

@spank. Some guy is already trying to sue Sainsbury's because he fell off on that bend.
Unfortunately for him, on the date he told Sainsbury's he fell off, they have him entering and leaving the carpark on CCTV and he didn't actually fall off at all. He just had a bit of a wiggle.

[Spank86]

I plan on actually falling off though.

[Matt-EUC]

I plan on actually falling off though.

Good lad.

[Spank86]

that's why I need a cheap bike.

[ClunkintheUK]

Do the world a favour and write off a Harley.

[_Stretchie_]

A shiny English pound to the person who posts the first knee down sequence which doesn't result in a crash.

On my way :mrgreen:

[Matt-EUC]

On my way :mrgreen:

No! Wait til tomorrow, then I can watch :)

Adam, you can do it when you like.

[Spank86]

Great thanks, I'll be waiting till you're walking round the outside of the corner then.

[Matt-EUC]

As long as you buy me a coffee afterwards, I couldn't give a toss.

[Spank86]

As long as you buy me a coffee afterwards, I couldn't give a toss.

I bet you say that to all the boys.

[Matt-EUC]

Oh no Adam. I only have eyes for you.

[Spank86]

As if I'd believe that.

Gav told me you barely struggled after the first few minutes. That's the mark of a floozy.