I can't believe it? Independence?????

[littleoldman2]

If an independent Scotland was allowed to join the EU then a Scottish Citizen could seek help from the nearest EU countries embassy, in practice this sometimes works well and other times not so well. Otherwise Scotland will have to make their own arrangements as do all other independent countries.
I would assume that the staff at the British Embassy would offer the same degree of help to a Scottish citizen as to any other foreign citizen.

[The Basket]

Mr Salmond would like to join the Euro.
Mr Salmond was very praiseworthy of the economies of Ireland and Iceland.
Mr Salmond was praiseworthy of RBS.
Mr Salmond would like an independent Scotland to take its place with other small Euro countries like Greece and Ireland and Portugal.
Now....I ain't no politician but that nice Mr Salmond has done more U-turns than a motorcycle despatch rider.

[Dicky Ticker]

Try going into a foreign embassy or consulate and asking for assistance-------not a lot of joy. I was told to go and find a British one when it was about 200 miles away when in Greece.

[fenjer]

Dean, fyi.

[carelesschucca]

Sadly they are proposing to work with Westminster. Proposals and the actual thing happening are completely different things. What happens when Westminster says No thanks we'll pay our services from our own department in Gosport.

The white paper is exactly the same as any political party's manifesto, its promises that they make to get your vote and how often do those things happen?. Please take the white paper with a pinch of salt just like you would when it was given to you by a political party before an election.

[fenjer]

Presumably the MOD and Westminster could opt to move their payrpoll dept at any point, not just after independence, so that is a pretty weak argument against something that could bring potentially massive benefits to Scotland.

I also abhor that whole "I'm voting no, because I dont like Alex Salmond" argument. He's not going to be running the place in 40-50 years. Look further ahead than the end of your own noses.

[duncs710]

Its up to the Scottish people to decide there own fate as it will be ours if we ever get a vote on Europe, no country should be told what to do by another (kin Brussels) so in that debate I willbe voting OUT. The main question here is ,"can we still come up and ride your roads please". I still love you....

[SoulKiss]

Its up to the Scottish people to decide there own fate

No its not tho, see DT's posts from earlier, sorry for mashing them up a bit.

One thing that pi55es me off is not having a vote due to my residential status although I was born,educated and lived in Scotland for 25 years.

I am a Scotsman,my birth certificate states when and where I was born,my work record by NIC's gives where I worked but I have no vote on what becomes of my Nationality.



Well it was only 23 years with me, but over 5 of those were working, and thats not counting weekend/school holiday work.

Can I claim as a refugee and get a free house and loads of Wonga in England.

Now THATS a cracking idea :)



A Chinaman working in a restaurant in Glasgow can decide this for me,even if he is only here for a few years before he goes back to China.


Do I detect a flaw in the voting system?


I think you do.


Yes it is a personal thing to me but I also consider my nationality to be quite an important issue which should be my decision given a choice
Anybody who has travelled the world and had dealings with embassies will appreciate that what it says on your passport can have a bearing, hence my concern, a whole new diplomatic issue if Scotland becomes independent.

Tyr going abroad, being asked "English?" saying "no, Scottish" and seeing the positive change in their demeanour...

Thats one of the reasons I pack my kilt when I go abroad :p

As for the vote, well I dont get one

[Bibio]

yes but you dont stay here now you decided to move to England therefore you are not a Scottish resident. there are plenty people living all over the world who are Scottish but decided that they dont like staying in Scotland so moved, why should they get a vote on the independence of somewhere they don't reside. when you cast a vote you cast that vote for the place you live, so if you want to vote on the independence of Scotland you had better move back up here.

nothing worse that a Scotsman living in another country shouting they are Scottish, if they loved being Scottish so much then they would stay in Scotland and take the rough with the smooth. but no you want your cake and eat it.

nothing personal and i think Soulkiss and Dicky are great people.

[SoulKiss]

yes but you dont stay here now you decided to move to England therefore you are not a Scottish resident. there are plenty people living all over the world who are Scottish but decided that they dont like staying in Scotland so moved, why should they get a vote on the independence of somewhere they don't reside. when you cast a vote you cast that vote for the place you live, so if you want to vote on the independence of Scotland you had better move back up here.

nothing worse that a Scotsman living in another country shouting they are Scottish, if they loved being Scottish so much then they would stay in Scotland and take the rough with the smooth. but no you want your cake and eat it.

nothing personal and i think Soulkiss and Dicky are great people.

Love you too :)

If Scotland could have offered me the opportunities that moving south did, then I would have stayed, wasn't an easy choice to make.

I dont exactly disagree about not having a vote, as you say, I don;t live there, but I DO think that being born there should be a pre-requisite for gettig a vote along with residency

[SIII]

If only scottish born & resident could vote, it would be a definite YES.

[Bibio]

so in that case all the immigrants living in Scotland should not have a vote. Scotland is being bombarded with English residents wanting a better life away from the hustle and bustle of the mega cities in England so by definition they should get a vote on English politics...

[Bibio]

trust me the vote will be NO, colleges, schools, places of employment, politicians, media are all brain washing the public saying that Scotland will be worse off.

people are put of because of Alex Salmond, well he is a politician and politicians come and go and it's up to the Scottish residents to put someone else in power who have no ties to Westminster that way and only that way Scotland will have a chance. in fact it will have more than a chance it will flourish.

to all you residents of Scotland stop being a sheep and listening to the media and your bosses, they are telling you lies. nothing will change apart from the revenue raised in Scotland will stay in Scotland and we will be responsible for our own affairs. if Westminster were not scared to loose the revenue raised in Scotland then there would not be all the lies spouted by the bosses and media.

[SIII]

Unfortunately, I think you are right. There has been so much scaremongering by the (english owned) media and anti-Salmon propoganda , that people without the where-with-all to go find out for themselves, are going to vote no. Its the easy option, carry on as wee are - ain't that bad!

We just need more people willing to give it a go and come out from under the control of Westminster and their biased policies, favouring the SE of England.

I hope the people of Scotland can be bothered to get up and actually make a difference. Unfortunately there are a lot of English born residents and I have yet to meet one that is going to vote yes. Especially down here in D&G where we have a high proportion of border jumpers - just look at Euro-elections - the tories won here !!!! WTF.

We would be richer than England as an independant nation - that's why they want us to stay, 33 years of paying more in than getting out!!! No way are they going to let us go without a fight.

[The Guru]

Like SII I think voting should only be open to people born and still living in Scotland.

[TamSV]

But what we're talking about here is a non-xenophobic civic nationalism. The SNP are not the BNP.

It's independence for the people of Scotland, not just independence for Scottish people.

Those resident and registered to vote in Scotland have a democratic right to influence what happens to them, no matter where they are from. Those resident outside Scotland should not be able to impose their views on something that doesn't affect them, no matter where they happen to have been born.

If we want a fair and tolerant Scotland, then to withdraw or extend the right to vote along any kind of ethnic lines, or based on where you happen to have been born, would be a pretty tragic place to start.

[Geordie Mick]

Like SII I think voting should only be open to people born and still living in Scotland.

why? I wasn't born here, but I live here, work here, spend my money (pay my taxes) here, my son was born here (as was my wife, assuming Arbroath counts :p).

It doesn't affect me the same as a Scottish born person? Let's not get into the "West Lothian Question", except the other way 'round.

Mick..

[keith_d]

Like SII I think voting should only be open to people born and still living in Scotland.

And those of us born in England and still living here should be getting a vote on whether to give Scotland independence, like it or not :) It's a union of two countries after all.

[andrewsmith]

why? I wasn't born here, but I live here, work here, spend my money (pay my taxes) here, my son was born here (as was my wife, assuming Arbroath counts :p).

It doesn't affect me the same as a Scottish born person? Let's not get into the "West Lothian Question", except the other way 'round.

Mick..

Your place of birth is the Roman boarder with Scotland ;)

[TamSV]

And those of us born in England and still living here should be getting a vote on whether to give Scotland independence, like it or not :)

So is it England's gift to give?

It's a union of two countries after all.

Four.

Any partnership only requires mutual agreement for its continuation, not for its dissolution.

[Geordie Mick]

Your place of birth is the Roman boarder with Scotland ;)

How do you know where my dad's car was at the time...? :p

[andrewsmith]

How do you know where my dad's car was at the time...? :p

Near the 7 mile inn? T

written with a biro

[keith_d]

So is it England's gift to give?



Four.

True.



Any partnership only requires mutual agreement for its continuation, not for its dissolution.

Exactly why I think we should be getting a vote too. I suspect that would be a much more certain way to get Scotland independence because most of the English would be too apathetic to vote. So the only people to bother would be the ex-pat Scots and those who would like to make Alex Salmond a purely Scottish problem.

[The Basket]

I wonder what SIII would like to see happen to non Scots living in Scotland.

Extermination or Expulsion?

Since you want to take away thier Democratic rights you then take away thier property and perhaps put them in special camps.
Perhaps a yellow star to signify their presence.

[SIII]

Get a sense of humour pal !
I am making the point that we may fail to get independence because of the numbers f english born voters with the biased view of wanting to stay in the union. Not what is best for the country and the next generation of scots.

[Bibio]

besides i think SIII is actually English

[The Basket]

Only 8% of the Scottish population is English.
84% is ethnic Scots.
1% is Poles.

So if all Scots voted for independent then its a landslide.

[Bibio]

Basket, i take it your an English born living in Scotland?

[The Basket]

Basket, i take it your an English born living in Scotland?

Quite so.

[Bibio]

lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment then, lets say you were still staying in England and England decided to go independent due to Scotland, Ireland and Wales costing to much to keep.

how would your vote be?

and if you dont mind me asking another question, why did you move Scotland?

[The Basket]

I thought I could live in Scotland.

[SIII]

Why ? cos its such a brilliant place compared to the south of England, low population concentration, who are friendly and give you the time of day.

It's a bloody great place, thats why I chose to move back here from living in South Yorkshire for 20+ years. I took the decision that Scotland was a bettter and fairer place to live and more importantly to educate & raise my children. I even married an Englishshire lass and brought her home to the folks.

I was born in Paisley and moved south at age of 11. Always felt Scottish and when my career allowed me to move back 'home', I was out of there like a shot.:thumbsup:

I want what is best for my children, I want what is best for the people living in Scotland. I feel there are too many listening to the clearly biased newspaper and TV media (BBC Scotland had a demonstration outside their building this week, did you see it reported???), that are owned and run by English tories.

People need to get off there ****'s and see what is on offer, ie as a nation we would be higher up the league table of rich nations than the UK are !!! I was undecided up until the end of last year, when i took the trouble to find out.

The disgraceful lies by the con-dems and the NO lot really decided it for me, no £ for Scotland - LIES!, no EU membership - LIES!! Your gonna need a passport to cross the bordewr - LIES!!!

Wake up the people of Scotland and get us independence and we can get a government we voted for - SNP, Labour or even Tories, I don't care.

So all the non-scots born living in Scotland - vote yes for Scotland, you choose to live here cos it's such a bloody great place.:smt041

https://dailyelection.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/yes-scotland-poster-what-would-you-say-to-living-in-one-of-the-worlds-wealthiest-nations.jpg

[Bibio]

SIII its like talking to a brick wall that has lost its mortar. the general public or the UK have been brain washed and conditioned from the 1950's to do what the Government, media and advertising tells them to do.

mass public hysteria and lynch mobs due to news reports is a prime example of how the Government get to pass new laws that in fact restrict the public even more in their day to day life. the very same tactics are used to sway the public into votes.

[SIII]

Unfortunately - you are probably right. :(

[The Basket]

Sigh.
This is what passes for Independence debate.
If your not Pro Independence you have been brain washed and dont understand.
Basically ur stupid.
Any debate where u call your opponent stupid is not a debate at all.

[Bibio]

who is calling who stupid?

[SIII]

Never called anyone stupid, just too lazy to go out and find out then make up your mind, not just listen to the mass madia that feeds us the tory government line. Who gives the BBC it's funding? Not be biased then !!!

If after looking into it, you decide on NO - fair do's, thats your decision, but most of the NO's i have spoken too start off with the cr*p fed by the media, no £, etc, etc. Some people have their own personnal reason for NO, again fair do's.

All I want is people to bother to find out and then vote, but don't complain about the Eton old boys club of a westminster government - when we don't get independence - cos Scotland better bend over and grab its ankles when we fail. They will give us a right royal sh*fting.

[Bibio]

you forgot about SNP, Westminster has got their hand that far up Alex Salmond's backside that he thinks he is Punch.

no Scottish politician that also has representation in Westminster is going to sway the Scottish public to vote Yes due to them loosing their wage and allowance they get from Westminster if Scotland vote Yes.

[The Basket]

Lazy and brainwashed.
I love it.

[Bibio]

Basket, you say this thread is a debate then please feel free to tell us why the Scottish public should vote no.

[TamSV]

Sigh.
This is what passes for Independence debate.
If your not Pro Independence you have been brain washed and dont understand.
Basically ur stupid.
Any debate where u call your opponent stupid is not a debate at all.


And yet, this was OK?




I wonder what SIII would like to see happen to non Scots living in Scotland.

Extermination or Expulsion?

Since you want to take away thier Democratic rights you then take away thier property and perhaps put them in special camps.
Perhaps a yellow star to signify their presence.

Misrepresenting your opponents view in order to accuse them of being just like the Nazis is hardly the gold standard of political debate.

[The Basket]

so the idea of only scots born people are eligible to vote was just my imagination?

[The Basket]

so the idea of only scots born people are eligible to vote was just my imagination?
been called Lazy and brainwashed was also my imagination?

[Bibio]

well if you believe everything the media tells you then yes you are.

but if you can read between the lines and want to debate your opposition then go ahead and show us that your not.

you have dodged questions and are getting aggressive due to general statements, how would you like us to react. give you hugs and kisses?

[TamSV]

so the idea of only scots born people are eligible to vote was just my imagination?

When you accused S111 of that then, yes, that was in your imagination. I don't know if that's what he believes but it's not what he said.

The loss of property rights and genocide was also in your imagination.

[The Basket]

To what end?

Am I going to change your point of view?

[Bibio]

you might, you might not but that's what a debate is about to hear other peoples views on a subject.

[The Basket]

If only scottish born & resident could vote, it would be a definite YES.

This

[Matt-EUC]

I wonder what SIII would like to see happen to non Scots living in Scotland.

Extermination or Expulsion?

Since you want to take away thier Democratic rights you then take away thier property and perhaps put them in special camps.
Perhaps a yellow star to signify their presence.

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)

[Bibio]

thats the view of an individual saying what he feels, it's not an excuse for others to get upset about.

SIII does have a point to that though due to patriotism, just like other cultures with their own which will influence their decision come voting time.

an independent Scotland is not about where you come from it's about the future of a nation.

[fenjer]

I don't think anyone accused anyone of being stupid or brainwashed, merely ill-informed.

People see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. The media feeds it to them and they lap it up.

Unless you go out there and look for the facts, from unbiased standpoints you cant make an informed decision.
Most people lack the inclination to do this. Thus most people believe what the media feeds them.

Tell us why continuing the union will benefit us in any way shape or form and we'll have the debate you long for.

[TamSV]

This

And from that comment you've fairly surmised that he wants you dead?

[The Basket]

You believe what u want to believe.

I have to go now. Toodles.

[punyXpress]

Quite so.
Have you registered to vote?

[The Basket]

Fenjer...do you wish me to quote the lazy brainwashed bit?
I am not ill informed just have a different view.
What l biased!
What has the Union given you? No idea. I dont know your circumstances.
But why do you think its failed? Its been very successful. Your living in a free country without fear of war, terror or imprisonment. Free political will and access to healthcare and education. UK is one of the very few states in Europe which wasnt occupied or had a military dictatorship. Low interest rates and low inflation and unemployment is lower than most countries. You are free to travel and say what you wish.
Those are huge benefits and each one real. Not an exercise in statistics. Some Nats portray the concept of Scotland as downtrodden or oppressed when its not.

I simply do not believe the SNP propoganda one little bit. Yes Scotland could be an independent nation but you will have to negotiate with Europe and England what happens next and thats a huge what if.

The currency issue is still unknown which would be top of my list to resolve. If you use the pound then you are using a currency without control. If you go into a currency union then England as the Richer nation will want strict controls on the scottish economy. Look at the failure of the Euro and the backwash of that.

[littleoldman2]

The currency issue is still unknown which would be top of my list to resolve. If you use the pound then you are using a currency without control. If you go into a currency union then England as the Richer nation will want strict controls on the scottish economy. Look at the failure of the Euro and the backwash of that.

I am sure that if Scotland flourishes as an independent nation (I hope they do) they will not want to be tied to the pound.
As a truly independent nation why would they want to support the UK.
Independent nations set their own fiscal policy's, monetary union does not suit that.
The Bank of England does not believe monetary union works, that's why the UK kept the pound. Be under no doubt that they will do whatever they need to to keep the pound firmly under their sole control.

[The Basket]

The 2 options are currency union or currency substitution.
If Scotland uses the £ in a currency substitution then the downsides are loss of economic control. If Scotland becomes richer than the UK but the UK goes down the toilet then Scotland goes down the toilet as well. Also Scotland will have no economic or democratic say so on the £. It would be totally dependent on the economy of the UK. The only nations that use currency substitution are little islands and banana republics.

A currency union will involve going to the Bank of England and asking nicely. The deal will certainly be that London controls the Scottish economy. Like Germany controls the Greek economy now.

Whats this means in real terms that Scotland is totally wound up with the economy of London without democratic representation and now dealing with a foriegn power who has a different agenda.

How ili informed am I?

[littleoldman2]

The 2 options are currency union or currency substitution.
If Scotland uses the £ in a currency substitution then the downsides are loss of economic control. If Scotland becomes richer than the UK but the UK goes down the toilet then Scotland goes down the toilet as well. Also Scotland will have no economic or democratic say so on the £. It would be totally dependent on the economy of the UK. The only nations that use currency substitution are little islands and banana republics.

A currency union will involve going to the Bank of England and asking nicely. The deal will certainly be that London controls the Scottish economy. Like Germany controls the Greek economy now.

Whats this means in real terms that Scotland is totally wound up with the economy of London without democratic representation and now dealing with a foriegn power who has a different agenda.

How ili informed am I?

Slovenia used the German Mark very successfully for a few years pre Euro and many eastern block countries used the USD or DM for virtually all their foreign transactions and most of the black market for many years. It can be made to work BUT why would an independent Scotland want to. The economies of the two (or maybe 4) nations will diverge within a decade or two making it unworkable.

[The Basket]

Currency Substutuion can work.
currency Union can work.
But when the excrement hits the fan...it dont.
If Scotland is going to be such a super rich country, why would it want to peg its economy with the failing disaster that is the UK. It seems that the benfits of union such as economic stability are tough to get away from.
There are lots of examples of currency substitution but Not in this Scotland UK context.
Not that i am aware of.

[littleoldman2]

I have to say at this point that if I was a Scot I'd vote YES for a truly independent Scotland.

Monetary union however is not going to last long if at all.

[The Basket]

You have lost me.
We agree that any form of currency union is bound to fail with the economic downfall that brings. But you would vote yes?

I am sure that the romantic nature of independence is an alluring one but business is business.

You cant eat a flag.

[littleoldman2]

Independence should be about more than money and people should think of the long term not just now.
If I had a vote I would vote for a truly independent Scotland which would take care of its own affairs.
However I don't think that's what's on offer. I bet 20 years after independence they still have the same driving licence categories as us because these things will be decided in Belgium not Scotland.

[littleoldman2]

Tell us why continuing the union will benefit us in any way shape or form and we'll have the debate you long for.

Economies of scale and synergy benefits. For example running your own DVLA will cost more per licence. Why big companies grow and little ones go under.

[The Basket]

I suppose. But sadly money IS everything.
No economy no nothing.

[The Basket]

Economies of scale and synergy benefits. For example running your own DVLA will cost more per licence. Why big companies grow and little ones go under.

Whoosh!

[Bibio]

if there is a will there is a way. Edinburgh was one of the top 10 financial centres in the world until Westminster let foreign countries start taking over all the banks.

if i'm not mistaken it was a Scotsman who devised the original plans for the Bank Of England.

if Scotland has to have it's own currency then fine let it be. it's a fact that Scotland has more money going out than coming in and the Scottish public are fed up of that money being spent south of the Watford gap.

all i can see is people saying what if Scotland fail but lets turn that around and say what if Scotland flourish. tax raising powers does not mean raising tax. if Scotland were to lower tax there would be a mass exodus in the north of England.

one of the biggest problems that the Scottish public have is misrepresentation in Westminster. no matter what political party we vote it makes no odds due to constituency and sheer numbers south of the border. it's around a 70%+ Labour vote here in Scotland but we have a Tory in power.

Scotland also has it's own law system but that is slowly being eroded by the ever increasing national law's being pumped out by Westminster.

the only arguments i have seen for Scotland becoming independent are Scotland will not have a secure financial future. but what country does these days.

everyone is thinking of the moment rather than the future, yes it might be hard in the beginning and could take 50 odd years to sort everything out but dont you think that Scotland has a right to try.

i have said it before but i'll say it again. if Scotland get independence nothing will change as Westminster will do their usual and do the biggest U turn in history.

[The Basket]

50 years?

And if it all goes wrong blame the English.

Well that covers all the bases.

[SIII]

How do you read that from what Bibio has put ???

I am not sure how it is going to fail? You think we will go bankrupt and run back to England for help ???

What happened when Greece went bankrupt ? Did the EU not bail them out ? I am not saying we are going to fail, if you look into it, we will be quite a rich wee nation and if we follow Norway and look after and use the oil money carefully, we can be a very rich nation. Gotta go one way or the other. I for one are willing to take that chance. What will probably happen is we carry on just as we are and you will not even notice. But in 50 years time our children might be better off and have a standard of living closer to Sweden or Norway - both small independent nations !!!

90% of the current cabinet are from the SE of England.

Where is the highest average incomes ? The SE of England. What a surprise. Them's that has the money - make the money. :smt078

[carelesschucca]

Ron, I don't want to work or live in a country with Norways or Swedens taxation levels. If thats what independence means then its even more of a NO vote for me.

[The Basket]

90% of the current cabinet are from the SE of England.

Where is the highest average incomes ? The SE of England. What a surprise. Them's that has the money - make the money. :smt078

So maybe the SE of England should be independent.
I was listening to the radio while driving and a Nat said Scotland should have an economy like Iceland.

Population 320,000 and suffered the biggest banking collapse of all time!
And yes Sweden does have high taxes. If Scotland truly wanted independence it should create its own currency. Keeping the £ or joining the € aint even close.

[Bibio]

why would Scotland want to raise taxation levels. it would be economic suicide. we dont need to raise taxation if anything we can drop them.

Scotland already look after their own affairs and come on or just under budget every year from the handout they receive via Westminster. Ron said it was around £30b when its more in the region of £50b. for this £50b we have to fund everything apart from unemployment, pensions etc.etc. its a known fact that Scotland is giving around £10b more than it receives but these figures do not include Duty this goes directly to HM Customs.

if Scotalnd get to keep all the Duty we will be much much better off, this is why the devolved parliament asked to be fully monitory independent but were refused, so Scotland decided that the only way we are going to be able to keep the funds in Scotland is to go independent.

someone raised the question about the national debt and Scotland still having to contribute towards it even if we do get independence. well all i can say to that is borlox right off as Scotland has a devolved parliament and has seen no monies come over the border of the debt that has been gathered. the Scottish public have already paid their share with NI, PAYE, Vat and Duty not to mention the shortfall every year.

peoples votes are a personal thing, but voting No just because YOUR going to be worse off is not an excuse for the future of a nation, that to me is like not getting a round in the pub when it's your turn. your voting for a chance to have a better future for the rest of the generations to come.

[The Basket]

You're asking people to vote to be poorer? That dont compute.
If they consider themselves to be 'well off' then perhaps they are not seduced by the claims of others. And the Status Quo is working for them. Not everyone is a nationalist. Or wants an economy like Iceland.

the debt issue hasnt been resolved yet. But...if Scotland simply reject debt then I doubt they will get credit. The debt issue is one of many economic issues that should have been bolted down by now. Unless there is absolute economic clarity then the whole vote is just a gamble.

My view is simple. This whole independence debate is pure 100% nationalist with a thin vaneer of economic credibility. It should be the other way around. Then Scottish Independence would actually work.

[Bibio]

no i'm asking people to vote for the independence of a nation and the future of the generations to come.

why are people taking Iceland as an example, there are plenty nations who are making a very good go of being independent and one of those is in fact a former colony of the British empire the USA. Germany, France, Russia, Japan etc.etc have always been independent. so why are people always going on about the recently bad publicised country's. scare mongering that why.

[Bibio]

chucca, who told you that you are going to be loosing your job?

[The Basket]

Alex Salmond mentioned Iceland as an example.
And Ireland.
Arc of Prosperity. I can send you a link if you wish.
Not scaremongering at all.
Stone cold fact. True, even.
So, we are now going to compare the economy of the US of A with Scotland as examples of independent successful countries? Oh my god. I cant even begin to tell you where that wrong.

An oil economy is good when the price of oil is high. But if it falls then not so good.
I love this the most....The Scottish Greens support independence. So they are supporting an oil economy then? Gotta love it.

By the by I am trying to find out how much debt Scotland will have to take for using the £. If anyone can give me either a % or a rough figure that would be super. Then we can see what shape the Scottish Economy will be in. Oh I love economics.

[carelesschucca]

Firstly I look at the facts of what my job is. I'm employed to pay pensions to the UK services. If we get independence will that office need the same amount of staff to pay a quarter of the payroll? I highly doubt it, and why would the government in a separate country allow their forces to be paid from another independent state. They wouldn't.

If you can prove my job will be as safe in an independent Scotland go for it.

Sorry but I happen to like my job I happen to like my house and my life why would I vote for something that could ferk that up. You basically want me to play Russian Roulette with my job. Before you say they could move my job anytime yes they could but the office I work in has been where it is for 30 years, and theres less chance of it being moved if I live in the UK!

YES I love being Scottish there's nothing better but I also like being Brittish. Yeah I don't like the fact that the rich and powerful control everything. But for one minute do you actually believe that the rich and the powerful won't control Scotland. Because if you do then your mad or stupid. The people who really hold power will always hold power.

I see Scotland on an international scale being less strong than the UK together. We certainly wont be going to any G8 summits and we have to also be realistic about the debts. God our Royal Bank was one of the main culprits. Can you imagine how we'd have coped as a nation if we'd had to bail them out by our selves... Sprechen Sie Deutsch.

[Bibio]

is there a fact that Scotland wont stay and support the UK forces?

Scotland is a strategic point for the UK forces. do you think that Whitehall would give that up... then you are as mad as me.

Basket,
stop repeating what Alex Salmond is suposed to have said or has said, i have already told you why he is saying what he is saying.
do you even know what the 'green party' is actually about? i have a rough idea as my Economics teacher at school was in fact Robin Harper, they are not all about saddle wearing, jumper knitting and muesli munching politics.

dont matter what we vote as the vote will be a NO.

if i thought for one minute that Scotland was going to be worse off i would be voting NO as i have a fair amount to loose regarding being looked after by the state. i dont care about the politics i'll leave that for the politicians to sort out. believe it or not i also think of myself as Brittish and i'm not one of those loyalist types.

[The Basket]

Alex Salmond said it. No supposed about it.
And it is important because he did.
Because he said it a lot.
And believed it. And, oddly, now he doesnt.

So...if Scotland enters into an currency union with England then what do you think the terms will be. I am surprised a new Scottish currency is not on the agenda. Since joining the Euro would be not exactly smart.

And what happens if England refuse?

[Bibio]

Alex Salmond is a puppet

know one knows.... till it happens, but England has nothing to do with it, it's the BOE that will make the decision. if they say no to Scotland keeping the £ then they are going to be handing out a lot of gold to RBS, BOS and Clydesdale Bank as they will no longer be 'holding currency' that belongs to those banks who issue Scottish notes. if the three note producing banks of Scotland decide that they still want to print 'Scottish Pound notes' then there is nothing anyone can do about it after all as the English keep saying Scottish currency is not legal tender. if Scotland do become independent then guess what it will become legal tender if the BOE refuse to let Scotland join the BOE pound. the BOE dont hold a patent on the symbol £ or the word Pound. any country in the world can call their currency what they like, in the case of the Scottish banks and BOE it will just be that the BOE will no longer hold currency for the right of Scottish banks to tender. it will be up to the Scottish government which bank they use to hold the purse strings or create a new one just like the BOE for Westminster.

[SIII]

We are debating unknowns here. :smt120

We do not know what is going to happen, if the unlikely scenario of independence does happen. (Brian Taylor BBC Scotland political editor and a very clever chap - even he agree's we do not know) It's a huge leap into the unknown, we could fail but is that what our history as an inventive nation shows ? We failed once by getting involved in the Darien Scheme and have now had centuries of foreeign control. We have shown we are able to manage our own wee country, time to get contol back.

I would be quite happy to stay in the UK - if we got control over our own finances, oil money or not! I am happy to be british and am happy to share our wonderful country with whoever wants to come and live here. I am just not happy with being financially controlled by a neighbour who happens to be bigger than us. Had DevoMax was on offer - i might be seriusly tempted to vote for that.

As for the £, be the best result to get a Scottish £, get all of our gold back from the BOE (every scottish note issued must have gold in the reserve to back it up, unlike the English pound - cos that's all been sold !!!:-dd) and set up our own currency. The only reason to keep it is that the idea of losing it scares the majority and this is used as a big stick to scare the general populace.

[TamSV]

My view is simple. This whole independence debate is pure 100% nationalist with a thin vaneer of economic credibility. It should be the other way around.

I agree with almost everything else you've said but I don't agree with that particular point. It seems to me any economic certainty is impossible but we keep going round in circles using the same facts and figures to prove opposite points. It's all meaningless on a personal level anyway. We're talking about national GDP when what matters to the individual is how that wealth is distributed.

In any case, if I could prove to your satisfaction that Scotland would be better off (which I absolutely can't) would you vote Yes? If I could prove to Bibio that Scotland would be worse off (which I also can't) I don't think he would be voting No.

This seems to be the case with pretty much everyone I speak to who has already made their mind up. On both sides we're all using pretty dodgy economic arguments to justify a decision we've made anyway, latching on to anything that supports that decision and discounting anything that doesn't.

Borders are pretty artificial things and they're never drawn because they represent the optimal economic unit. I don't see any reason why Scotland or the UK should be any different.

The question is "Should Scotland be an independent country?" You either think it should or you think it shouldn't. They're equally valid points of view and there doesn't really need to be a business case made either way. The future will be uncertain whichever way the vote goes. Anyone who says Scotland can't afford to be independent is just as wrong as anyone who says we'll all be fabulously wealthy. It's a dreary argument with no conclusion IMO.

I know you were drawn somewhat reluctantly into making the case for the union but I personally think that case is self-evident. I agree with you on almost all the points you made and disagree with most of the pro-independence comments in the last few pages of this thread.

But I'll still be voting Yes. :)

[The Basket]

I can argue economics but stuffed when nationalism is involved.

[Bibio]

i think you have missed a decimal point out there and if you haven't then the revenue gained by oil alone would be more than Scotlands annual allowance.

dont matter, you edited your post.

[SIII]

http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/flyer1.jpg

[littleoldman2]

The pound.
I believe there is only one pound, GBP, no Scottish pound or English pound just GBP. The difference in notes is just that, a different note for the same thing the GBP.

[The Basket]

I think that poster is not helpful. At all.

anyhoo....I have no axe to grind. So although I will vote no I respect a civic pride of nationalism that is positive and constructive.

I hope I have added something even made you think. But it wasnt my intention to prove anyone wrong. Or change minds.

I could add more but I have decided to call time on this one.

This will be my last message on this subject.

Unless Marc Marquez becomes SNP leader.

[Bibio]

i think your wrong Malc, there is only one GBP and that belongs to the BOE. all other notes are issued by the country etc.etc. Scottish notes do not belong to the BOE they are a separate 'issue' and belong to the bank they were printed by but each bank has to keep a retainer in the BOE to make them 'tender'. it's all a lot more complicated but thats about the gist of it. so in a way yes the BOE notes are the only legal tender in the UK. as for calling Scottish currency the 'Scottish Pound' there is nothing anyone can do to stop it, it's just that it will not be linked to the GBP. as an example just like the Canadian Dollar to the US Dollar.

[startrek.steve]

Upon Scotland gaining independence I will instruct Adrian’s Wall to be rebuilt.


Who's this Adrian?
Surely the mean the Emperor Hadrian?
We use the letter H regularly in yorkshire!

[punyXpress]

Who's this Adrian?
Surely the mean the Emperor Hadrian?
We drop the letter H regularly in North Yorkshire!

That's better!

[SIII]

:winner: I spluttered my tea out when i read people in yorkshire use their H's !!!:smt044

I actually think Cumbria, Northumberland and Durham would be better off actually joing Scotland in independence. They too are forgotten and neglected area's when it comes to the fair distrobution of funds from westminster.

So - come on guys - form a liberation army and demand freedom and come and join us.

[littleoldman2]

A lot of folk would go for that. Last year there was a rash of "Home Rule" posters on road sign-age all over the region.

[Bibio]

basically make the A689 the border but Scotland get the road and 3000ft south of it :-)

[fenjer]

Firstly I look at the facts of what my job is. I'm employed to pay pensions to the UK services. If we get independence will that office need the same amount of staff to pay a quarter of the payroll? I highly doubt it, and why would the government in a separate country allow their forces to be paid from another independent state. They wouldn't.

If you can prove my job will be as safe in an independent Scotland go for it.

Sorry but I happen to like my job I happen to like my house and my life why would I vote for something that could ferk that up. You basically want me to play Russian Roulette with my job. Before you say they could move my job anytime yes they could but the office I work in has been where it is for 30 years, and theres less chance of it being moved if I live in the UK!

YES I love being Scottish there's nothing better but I also like being Brittish. (stuff)



No-ones job is safe, the UK services could move your job to England or India at the drop of a hat if they wanted to. You play Russian roulette with your job every time you get on a bike - we all do, or every time you post on Facebook - again we all do. That's a moot point as I've already said.

You like your house and life because it fits the status quo and you dont have kids who you need to send to nursery, or school, or to doctors, or dentists, you dont have disabled dependants or elderly relatives who've had their disability benefits or pension ripped from them after working all their lives.
You may or may not have felt the true impact of the Wesminster dictat that has been spewed out of there in the last few years.

And you love being British so much that you can't even spell it. :smt018

The benefits that are reaped from the taxation systems in Sweden or Norway are vast compared to what we get here, for example, if you were off work sick in sweden you are still paid 80% of your wages, if you were to have kids, your wife would get 480 days of maternity leave at 80% of her wage, her antenatal care, postnatal care, care in hospital would be state funded, there are subsidised nursery places, satisfaction and living standards and life expectancy are much higher.

I don't for a second envisage that Scotland would raise it's taxes to that level, as Bibio said that would be suicide, but a minimal rise with a reduction in business rates to attract businesses in return for better standards of living, better education and health care, better pensions and care in our old age...

Having read the budgets for 2014-2015 today on the Scottish Government website it amazes me to see how much we roll over and allow Westminster to walk over us, and in comparison with proposed spending and budgets that we could have if we got independence it makes perfect sense to vote yes.

We have the ability to make Scotland one of the great contributors to the large economic playing field, lets do it.

[The Idle Biker]

Interesting speech. I would never have thought he would have felt like this.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/06/listen-george-galloway-makes-the-case-against-scottish-independence/

[TamSV]

George is old Scottish Labour. It would be surprising if he was anything other than pro-union.

He wants a courtesy extended to his argument that he refuses to give to the other side.

If he thinks this debate is about Bannockburn or WW2 then, for me, he's out of touch.

[Bibio]

and you believe anything that comes out that man's mouth he is a fekin arzz full stop.

a worn out dodgy politician who is clutching at straws and will jump into bed with any party that will have him

the Canadians would not let him into their country, what does that tell you.

next.....

[TamSV]

I'm actually quite fond of him. :) On certain subjects I find myself agreeing with him. On this one, I don't.

[Bibio]

debate between Salmond and Darling last night from what i heard has a crowd percentage of 71% in favour of Salmond and the Yes vote. they are predicting the biggest turnout in Scottish history to turn up at the polling stations and reckon 80% of the Scottish population will be voting on the referendum.

a little over 3 weeks to go so make your minds up folks.

[andrewsmith]

I declare invasion of Wales ;)

[TamSV]

Saw this trailer on Sky. Made me chuckle. Best thing I've seen in the debate so far :)

watch?v=LQPEMf3j6AY