View Full Version : I can't believe it? Independence?????
The Idle Biker
23-02-14, 10:14 PM
Not trying to be confrontational but are you ****ing mad, how can you leave us to our own devices.
Don't vote for independence!!
We need some Scottish common sense down here even though you are a bunch of wild, neanderthal, primitive hard drinking inbred know it alls that spawned Alex Salmond that ijeet;)
Whats the word up there?
Milky Bar Kid
24-02-14, 01:34 AM
Someone pass the popcorn.
don't worry Scotland will NOT get independence. even if there is a majority vote the majority will be so small Westminster will do exactly the same as they done in the 70's.
Westminster/Whitehall is shizzing their selves about Scotland getting independence. Why? as they will have to find a way of making up the shortfall in revenue. so they will either have to cut more public spending or raise taxes. there is no if or buts about it.
Scotland on the other hand will gain revenue so it might help towards our public spending.
all the scaremongering going on is just that, Scotland has been devolved for a good while now and we seem to be doing all rite with the handouts we get from Whitehall. Scotland is either on budget or falls below each year.
the icing on the cake about Westminster shizzing themselves is the refusal to let Scotland keep the £, bigggg mistake.
for every £ printed by a Scottish bank that bank has to keep the same amount in the BOE as English notes. if Scotland get independence then the BOE no longer have that on their books and Sottish notes then become legal tender. the BOE's credit rating will then go down.
ok so it might take 50 years for everything to be sorted out before Scotland is fully independent but at least in the meantime we wont have to rely on handouts.
i just hope the the Scottish public have the sense to vote out the political party we have at the moment to one that does not have any ties to Westminster come the next election otherwise Westminster will make sure that we are fecked.
Politicians who have dual roles e.g. SMP's/MP's will have their wages cut by the amount they would have received form Westminster so of course they don't want Scotland to get independence.
dear fellow Scots please dont let the media poison your mind.
i could go on and on but i won't.
Can't be a bad thing. They don't seem to follow the England's parliament thoughts on tuition fees and health care. And it works better for them.
So it will allow greater freedom to tailor the policy better for Scotland.
The. English and Welsh will have to stand up.
The UK flags gonna look rubbish though
Dicky Ticker
24-02-14, 09:12 AM
What about the I.O.M -Jersey -Guernsey,all independent but still British Protectorates. I think the biggest problem for Westminster is that mainland UK will become a split island and they don't want that. Should Scotland get independence they are not the only ones who will have headaches sorting things out,Westminster might have quite a few as well. To be honest I am sat on the fence because I don't have all the information as to what both sides intend doing.
IIRC
Westminster spend on new London underground and London to Birmingham rail link will be in the region of £90 Billion. This will come from the tax payers of the English, Welsh, Scottish and N.Ireland. But will benefit the South of England most. Where is the only area recovering from the latest London based bankers recession ??? Who's house prices and wages are increasing ???
Total spend in 1 year for Scotland - £30 billion - for everything !!!!
Doesn't seem quite fair, does it ?
The only reason the eton boys club want to keep Scotland in UK is to continue to rob us the same as their ancestors always have. It has already been declared that, if we vote no - The Scotland budget will be cut !!!
IIRC for every Scottish note printed - we have to keep GOLD in the BoE !!! That's why they will not take the pound off of us, they'd have to return all our gold. Not even sure they still have it ???
madcockney
24-02-14, 12:58 PM
I'm English, but live in Wales, and used to come to Scotland a lot on business at one period in my life. The Scots should make their own minds up, but I would have thought that the current situation was best for all. (On a personal basis I would say "stay with us you are wanted".) Having travelled a lot in a past life throughout the world I can see what the UK government and the Scottish government are getting at when it comes to the British, what I used to call UK, pound. Any country can use another country's currency, but it is not their country's currency, which underwrites the fiscal system of the country. I do not think that this was used by the chancellor as a spoiler, but just stating that the rest of the UK could not underwrite another country, so they need to make plans. The Scots, if they decide to go on their own, will need to have some form of internal currency that has a conversion rate for GBP, which could be one for one, or if Scotland does well could end up being one Scottish unit to 1.2 GBP, though most daily transactions are conducted in £. (During the oil Crisis in the 1970's a company I once worked for did all their transactions in dollars as it was more stable.) To be honest I think that this is clouding the whole issue. It will probably come down to whether Scotland wants to be completely separated from the rest of the UK, whether it is in their interest in respect of industry, business and jobs, and whether they want to share in the UK military for security. In other words will it benefit them.
One other thing not discussed is the fact the distance between London and Scotland, which gives a feeling that London does not understand Scotland. (I know that a lot of Scots living elsewhere in the UK are annoyed that they are not getting a vote, and there are pros and cons for that.) I had already been living in Wales for many years when the vote for a National Assembly went through and even that was controversial. The biggest driving force I felt was Maggie Thatcher, not for being a driving force for the Welsh, but her own and her governments actions and arrogance towards them. There is still a North South divide in Wales, but Plaid Cymru now accept that a large percentage only speak English and they talk to them as well. The issue of complete separation that Plaid Cymru were campaigning for does not appear to be in the general Welsh public mindset. That is possibly one of the big differences between the populations of Wales and Scotland.
squirrel_hunter
24-02-14, 01:26 PM
I genuinely hope Scotland gets independence. It will be hilarious. No one on either side of the boarder will have a clue what to do it will be a complete mess. However I have a cunning plan…
Upon Scotland gaining independence I will instruct Adrian’s Wall to be rebuilt. This time a bit taller and will have it patrolled night and day like the 38th Parallel. The boarder will be sealed. Berwick-upon-Tweed will be decided by coin toss. All now illegal Scottish immigrants will be rounded up and deported to St Kilda after viewing The Wickerman for inspiration. I will then after lulling the Scots into a false sense of security invade this independent Scotland crushing all before me annexing it back into British territory.
Matt-EUC
24-02-14, 03:48 PM
I genuinely hope Scotland gets independence. It will be hilarious. No one on either side of the boarder will have a clue what to do it will be a complete mess. However I have a cunning plan…
Upon Scotland gaining independence I will instruct Adrian’s Wall to be rebuilt. This time a bit taller and will have it patrolled night and day like the 38th Parallel. The boarder will be sealed. Berwick-upon-Tweed will be decided by coin toss. All now illegal Scottish immigrants will be rounded up and deported to St Kilda after viewing The Wickerman for inspiration. I will then after lulling the Scots into a false sense of security invade this independent Scotland crushing all before me annexing it back into British territory.
Hear hear!!
dizzyblonde
24-02-14, 04:07 PM
I genuinely hope Scotland gets independence. It will be hilarious. No one on either side of the boarder will have a clue what to do it will be a complete mess. However I have a cunning plan…
Upon Scotland gaining independence I will instruct Adrian’s Wall to be rebuilt. This time a bit taller and will have it patrolled night and day like the 38th Parallel. The boarder will be sealed. Berwick-upon-Tweed will be decided by coin toss. All now illegal Scottish immigrants will be rounded up and deported to St Kilda after viewing The Wickerman for inspiration. I will then after lulling the Scots into a false sense of security invade this independent Scotland crushing all before me annexing it back into British territory.
Be careful what you wish for, even if in jest.
Island division in my personal view ain't pretty. The UK is lucky it's inhabitants are fairly peaceful. Invasions in an island so small is horrendous. It's that sort of behaviour that keeps a small Mediterranean island with unrecognised territory for 40yrs , divided by a status quo.
That aside....
I'll sit on the fence too. I've read a fair bit about the situation and there is a lot of pro's and cons. Still not entirely convinced either way.
Matt-EUC
24-02-14, 04:22 PM
I say no.
Breakups are always messy.
Then there's that awkward period afterwards if you bump into each other.
Adrian’s Wall
Who's Adrian?
keith_d
24-02-14, 06:08 PM
We were talking about this at work, and it's a lot more complicated than the politicians are making out.
The big question is what happens to the national debt. Personally I'd go for distributing it by population, since both countries have benefited from the money spent by the UK government. But when has fairness mattered to politicians on either side of the border?
After that there's the question of whether Scotland wants to continue using the pound, and on what terms. If they do there's the question of whether English fiscal policy should be affected by considerations north of the border. If they don't there's the Euro versus the costs of printing a whole new currency, and what the banks will do about mortgages currently in English pounds.
Next is the question of defense, whether it's shared, how much Scotland pays, and how much of the defense budget is spent in Scotland. There's scope for plenty of pork barrel politics there, as well as the question of who owns the existing defense assets.
Next up, the question of passports and nationality. If Scotland is a separate country they'll need to print a few million passports in relatively short order, and determine who is entitled to one. Then, until there is some agreement on whether it's an open border both sides will need to implement passport checks.
And finally, who counts as a Scot?? If you've got a two Scottish and two English grandparents which nationality are you??
Oh, and I've left out the single market, the European Union, the need for a completely new legal system, property rights, legal considerations for the oil companies, the civil service, the National Grid, etc.
It would be a mighty costly divorce.
Keith.
I my dad's parents both came to England from Scotland
He was born in England His English as am I.
Simples
Milky Bar Kid
24-02-14, 07:45 PM
If the yes crew get their way, I'm moving to Carlisle....
If the yes crew get their way, I'm moving to Carlisle....
why?
You think it could get worse ????? Not sure how.
carelesschucca
24-02-14, 08:27 PM
Oh, the need for a completely new legal system, property rights
Why would WE need a new legal system? We have our own legal system and our property laws are completely different to the rest of the United Kingdom?
Having said that I'll be voting no... A yes vote and I might as well kiss my job goodbye, yeah I don't earn big bucks but I'd prefer to be earning than be sitting in my house skint thinking how great it is to be Scottish.
I'm on the lines of Rentboy in Trainspotting... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-LRuuqFT0
A yes vote and I might as well kiss my job goodbye
Is that a job for life guaranteed by the UK Govt? If so, sweet gig. :)
If not, then what will a"No" vote mean to you? All the unionist parties say there will a new devolution settlement, but we don't know what that will be.
A "No" vote is not a vote for the status quo.
Milky Bar Kid
24-02-14, 09:05 PM
Because as much as I am proud to be Scottish, I am also proud to be British. I believe we are far better off as part of the Union.
I think we are better off and the Union are better off.
The glimpses of the 'brave new world' I have seen so far do not fill me with joy and I think a lot of the Yes campaign is smoke and mirrors. I'm not naive enough to think that the No campaign is any better but I feel that we need to trust the Yes lot more.
andrewsmith
24-02-14, 09:16 PM
http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f74/404734d1300156375-wenger-batallion-iii-72326-mens-divers-watch-quality-performance-movement-information-662814-simpsons_homer_eating_popcorn_large.jpg
carelesschucca
24-02-14, 09:38 PM
Is that a job for life guaranteed by the UK Govt? If so, sweet gig. :)
Nothing is guaranteed, but can you see the Scottish military being large enough to sustain a pay office that currently pays the whole of the British forces? I think not. Most of our jobs would move south as no country is going to leave their military pay office in an independent country.
Yeah I'm thinking about me but why would I vote for something that gives me a good chance to be worse off. ie loose my job, I may have a gun but I sure as hell ain't gonna shoot myself in the foot with it...
Blue Flame
24-02-14, 10:09 PM
Labour don't want it to happen cos they will never get the votes to get back into Westminster again.
In the eyes of a lot of people we are continually being governed by a party that was not voted for by the majority of the Scottish populace.
A lot of scaremongering is currently going on in my opinion but I am still on the fence about it all at the moment. I need to hear more. Being selfish I would want to know for example how it would affect me working for an English company with no offices in Scotland but my job role covers the UK. I would assume that as I am residential in Scotland then my company would have to pay the Scottish taxes?..but how else would it be impacted.
The devil inside of me though says why not give it a go. There's nothing wrong with a wee bit of self-determination.
It also scares me to think about what a No vote will bring. A momentous shafting I suspect for daring to ask the question.
Being selfish I would want to know for example how it would affect me working for an English company with no offices in Scotland but my job role covers the UK.
same rules apply to English working up in Scotland. it comes under EU trading. think ebay, amizon, power/gas banks etc.etc.
if the English really wanted to get a bit upset about it they could insist on the Scottish residents who work in England apply for a visa. and we could do the same but only if we dont join the EU.
i have said this already but here goes again. there will be NO change to the Scottish public's daily going ons. as it will take a minimum of 5 years to get even the slightest bit of things sorted out. then maybe in 50 years we will be fully independent.
someone mentioned about the national debt, well Scotland has had no money from England apart from our yearly budget so how can Scotland be responsible for something the rest of the UK has done to its self. Scotland has had grants from the EU not Westminster. if Scotland does have debts then they are Scottish debts that the Scottish parliament have agreed to.
Scotland also will own part of the British armed forces as they have paid into them or Westminster and Holyrood come to an agreement about a combined force where the Scottish Gov still pay in (a protectorate).
personally i think the only people who are going to get upset about Scotland getting independence are the English Gov.
Being selfish I would want to know for example how it would affect me working for an English company with no offices in Scotland but my job role covers the UK. I would assume that as I am residential in Scotland then my company would have to pay the Scottish taxes?..but how else would it be impacted.
That seems to be the main issue for a lot of people at the moment - general uncertainty about what a Yes or No vote means. I think most people are coming to the realisation that no-one's going to tell them. Chucca's got a pretty well reasoned argument on the personal effects for him but most people can't be so sure.
The problem is there's no "truth" to be got at here. On things like keeping the pound, both sides are setting up their negotiating position and I can't see how we'll get any further on that one. UK Govt has nothing to gain by suggesting there's a compromise to be had and the SNP would be foolish to enter a negotiation having already revealed their Plan B. Much the same for pretty much everything else of any importance. In any case, the Governments debating it now may not be the same Governments who end up sitting down to negotiate.
For the EU, I can easily see scenarios in 5 years where Scotland is not in the EU but UK is, or Scotland is in but the UK isn't, or both are in, or both are out.
Forecasts of the economic future is a waste of time too. If you look at the chancellors budget forecasts, for as long as I can remember they've always been wrong so, even under the status quo, we don't know what's going to happen next year. If you then look at the revisions to those forecasts you'll realise we're not actually certain what happened last year! Any economic predictions for 5, 10 or 20 years hence is entirely a crystal ball enterprise.
Comparing a future independent Scotland with the UK over time periods like that means imagining the reaction of governments as yet unelected to events that have not yet occurred.
So we can't predict the outcome of independence negotiations and we don't know what a new devolution settlement will look like. Both Scotland individually, and the UK as a whole, will face risks and opportunities but we don't know who would **** it up the most.
This debate in Scotland has been very rational so far. Lots of facts and figures but it seems pretty meaningless to me. We're trying to avoid the emotional flag waving because, these days, everything needs to have a "business case". I've certainly been guilty of that. I've been pro-independence for some time and have made arguments based on the facts and figures. The truth is, if you could prove to me that I'd be substantially worse off (you can't, but if you could) I would still vote Yes.
At the end of the day it is, I think, an emotional decision. A question of blood and soil. A position of principle. An act of faith.
MBK identifies as British and will vote accordingly. Others will identify as Scottish and make a different decision. Some will vote for Independence as they see it as the best route to their own little version of utopia. Others will want to vote Yes but will vote No out of fear. All valid reasons IMO, but I wonder if we'll have the courage to admit that's what it's about or will we just keep on talking about the numbers?
The Basket
25-02-14, 12:16 AM
I will be voting no.
Were you already decided on that or have you been convinced?
The Basket
25-02-14, 12:32 AM
It is my own view
I apologise in advance but I am not here to debate.
It is simply my expression of my democratic right.
It is my own view
I apologise in advance but I am not here to debate.
It is simply my expression of my democratic right.
Fair enough :)
I asked because I'm interested how the undecided voters are coming to a decision. Maybe they won't.
Matt-EUC
25-02-14, 01:10 AM
It is simply my expression of my democratic right.
Who said you had any rights?!
GUARDS!!
The Basket
25-02-14, 01:15 AM
Who said you had any rights?!
GUARDS!!
;)
Milky Bar Kid
25-02-14, 02:08 AM
Tam, nope. I didn't. I identified myself as Scottish first and foremost. Why do we have to be one or the other?! I'm Scottish first but I am also British.
pegasus
25-02-14, 08:04 AM
I am enjoying this debate,
Hearing peoples opinions is truly eye opening, and yet I cant pull fault with any single aspect of any of the views voiced.
To me all the news, views, opinions, debates, etc, are all based on vague interpretations of what could have happened or what could happen.
Every time I hear a politician speak on the subject I see nothing and hear nothing, almost like being at a sales convention where the speaker drones on about benefits and features, in the end it will only benefit the person selling the product.
As has been previously written, its very difficult to say what will happen and who will agree to it and when it will occur, because its all so.....well, vague.
What we do know is that there is a lot of noise at the moment, and it is being noticed and gaining attention. And in the background behind the noise unnoticed forces are at work....sorry to be so....vague...lol
P
Littlepeahead
25-02-14, 09:26 AM
It's quite simple, those in Scotland can have their independence on two conditions:
1) They make sure the Proclaimers never cross the border or darken our English airways again
and
2) I get Ewan McGregor and David Tennant all to myself
Done deal.
:D
Tam, nope. I didn't. I identified myself as Scottish first and foremost. Why do we have to be one or the other?! I'm Scottish first but I am also British.
I'm sorry, you're right. I over simplified and shouldn't have assumed your motivation.
Milky Bar Kid
25-02-14, 11:28 AM
It's fine. I just don't like this notion that the some of the Yes brigade band about that if you want to vote No then you are not Scottish. I'm very definitely Scottish.
I think Peg sums up my views on it. Everything is so vague about what's going to happen if we get independence. What's the defence plan? What's the currency plan? Etc etc. I know the SNP have given assurances about these things but they actually can't because they don't know! They say the pound in a currency union, the UK say no. They say we'll be straight into the EU, the EU say not necessarily.
I have a bad gut feeling about the whole thing which I can't necessarily explain. But I trust my instincts most days and rarely do they let me down.
Tiger 55
25-02-14, 11:55 AM
The UK flags gonna look rubbish though
You can keep the flag. Our leaving present.
Berwick-upon-Tweed will be decided by coin toss.
You can have that as well. Scots' generosity.
I'm Scottish first but I am also British.
And you'll still be British because Britain is this big island we all live on (except Haggis) so don't let that sway you. Also Carlisle is rubbish, even worse that Berwick-upon-Tweed, so all in all it's Saltire face paint time in the MBK household!
It's fine. I just don't like this notion that the some of the Yes brigade band about that if you want to vote No then you are not Scottish. I'm very definitely Scottish.
I agree that's a very simplistic view. Identity is a bit more complicated than that. My family and even my occupation are probably more important sources of personal identity than my nationality. You can vote No and be Scottish or vote Yes and still consider yourself to be British. I do think the relative weight of importance attached to these things might sway the decision for some people, which is what I was getting at earlier.
On the other side of the argument it's been assumed that my support for independence means I must be some kind of slabbering, chippy jock, English-hating, Braveheart-watching, Burns-reciting, head-in-the-clouds, haggis-munching cyber nat when, in fact, only about 50% of that is true. :)
Dicky Ticker
25-02-14, 12:23 PM
One thing that pi55es me off is not having a vote due to my residential status although I was born,educated and lived in Scotland for 25 years.
Can I claim as a refugee and get a free house and loads of Wonga in England.
Forgive me if my understanding is wrong but, they can keep the pound as a Scottish pound of their own can't they? We aren't the only country to use the pound.
It's a gamble.
If you think you are going to be better off personally, you are going to vote yes and vice-versa. I am fortunate, come decision time, my job will not be on the line and I support those that it possibly could have serious repercussions for.
But unless your income, career, family, etc are in the direct firing line, my opinion, as a nation and a people, we will be better off controlling our own national finances. I would not be very keen on the idea of my next door neighbour controlling what i spend my income on, just because he has a bigger house and more family. How is this a fair system?
There are going to be difficulties and we will probably have to be a little bit worse off than we currently are for a few years, but once we get all the little things sorted out, we as a nation are quite capable of doing a better job at running our wee country. As mentioned already, we have our own law system in place, we have our own education system in place (and from 1st hand expierence better, not at the whim of a jumped up little politician) and are quite capable of sorting the other stuff out. We have a very good history of being a productive and inventive nation.
The plans to actually save our oil revenue and earn from it, instead of squander it (Norway model IIRC) will mean we struggle to start with and taxes may go up, but in the long run (10, 15 years) we will be better off.
We only went into a union for monetary reasons and I think this is the main reason to exit. Not cos i hate english or more impotantly english politicians (I do) but because we will have the country and the people as our main focus and not the people of London and the south east.
Isle of Man have their own pound !!! No reason we can't continue to use, once BoE return our gold.
Blue Flame
25-02-14, 12:54 PM
Yes to the question about the pound !!
They could also decide not to join the EU if they want.
Indeed MBK could decide to move herself to Carlisle and then find she is out the EU as well if another upcoming decision making process goes a certain way. Everything is that vague these days.
Dicky Ticker
25-02-14, 12:57 PM
Probably ,but for every pound issued by Scottish banks the security is lodged with the B of E so I can't get that part of Westminsters argument We already have I.O.M.,Guernsey and Jersey with £Pounds as currency and that system seems to work OK
pegasus
25-02-14, 12:59 PM
Forgive me if my understanding is wrong but, they can keep the pound as a Scottish pound of their own can't they? We aren't the only country to use the pound.
They can call it what they like, however at the moment the currecy in The UK is The GBP £ (Great Britain Pound). There are I believe 3 banks which have legal and licensed rights to manufacture the Scottish version (RBS, Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank), however none of them are Central Banks, this privilege alone belongs to The Bank Of England, and they charge for the right to hold the funds which guarantee the notes that are passed into circulation.
Please correct this if any of my info is dated or incorrect.
I hope this helps,
P
Soooo if I understand correctly....
They take their gold back, make up a bank of Scotland and call it the great Scottish pound. Job done.
Or take the gold back, try to enter the eu and get the euro
Or everybody stops bitching and they keep the gbp and we keep the gold.
To be honest the whole thing just sounds like bitching on both sides, but to be fair mainly ours (uk). I will add that I haven't really looked in to it much as I don't think anything will really happen that quickly.
pegasus
25-02-14, 01:12 PM
Soooo if I understand correctly....
They take their gold back, make up a bank of Scotland and call it the great Scottish pound. Job done.
Or take the gold back, try to enter the eu and get the euro
Or everybody stops bitching and they keep the gbp and we keep the gold.
To be honest the whole thing just sounds like bitching on both sides, but to be fair mainly ours (uk). I will add that I haven't really looked in to it much as I don't think anything will really happen that quickly.
you would like to think that its that simple, and actually it probably should be, however the "gold" or commodities or reserves that fund the accepted form of currency "eg GBP" were depleted years ago, and the currency is from what I hear traded in workforce, that is you and me - " eh!!??" you ask, I know its hard to understand but the workforce or manpower of the country is its commodity, but that is a completely different argument for another time, with a bottle of whiskey!
P
Bugger this I give up! Haha
Wake me up when it's all done!
A formal currency union would mean Scotland would continue to use Sterling and BoE would be the lender of last resort.
In the absence of a formal currency union, Scotland could have its own wee pound and peg it to Sterling (which is, I suspect, SNP's Plan B). BoE would set interest rates but would not provide backing to a future Scottish bank failure, for example. Alternatively, we could peg it to the Euro or just let the currency float.
Littlepeahead
25-02-14, 01:18 PM
If the Scottish get to keep the oil do the English get to pass over a proportion of our debt in return?
Yes, the Gold went some time ago. There is still much discussion to be had on equitable sharing of assets and liabilities. The currency is an asset that will be included in that horse-trading.
If the Scottish get to keep the oil do the English get to pass over a proportion of our debt in return?
Yes. It's our debt too.
Urgh, why can't it be wales!!? And they can take the bloody dvla with them!
pegasus
25-02-14, 01:28 PM
If the Scottish get to keep the oil do the English get to pass over a proportion of our debt in return?
Another interesting point,
The Scottish oil reserves have been stated as being near depletion, this means less than 50 years left in the north sea, other sources including OPEC, have stated that there is less than 20 years left. This is a catastrophic state to be in, if it is to be believed. Other sources of revenue and fuel will need to be investigated at a cost to the taxpayer....again all very vague.
P
i think far too many people are looking at this from a personal gain view. it's not about you as an individual, hell its not even about being Scottish it's about the future of a nation. if you cant see that then don't vote as then you will be putting a bias vote in for your own personal gain.
it's the residents of Scotland that will be voting no matter what nationality they are, if you are a resident then you get to have your say come the vote.
i will be voting for the future of my children and their children to come. it has nothing to do with my personal views. i have come to my decision based on the facts that i have gathered and not those being branded about by the politicians and the media.
i don't watch the news and i don't read newspapers as they are the brainwashing format of the nation.
pegasus
25-02-14, 01:35 PM
i think far too many people are looking at this from a personal gain view. it's not about you as an individual, hell its not even about being Scottish it's about the future of a nation. if you cant see that then don't vote as then you will be putting a bias vote in for your own personal gain.
it's the residents of Scotland that will be voting no matter what nationality they are, if you are a resident then you get to have your say come the vote.
i will be voting for the future of my children and their children to come. it has nothing to do with my personal views. i have come to my decision based on the facts that i have gathered and not those being branded about by the politicians and the media.
i don't watch the news and i don't read newspapers as they are the brainwashing format of the nation.
I do agree wholeheartedly....I keep seeing the slogan from Brewster's Millions
"Vote None Of The Above"
Milky Bar Kid
25-02-14, 01:36 PM
Totally disagree with that Bib. It's entirely up to individual to rationalise the way they vote.
There's many reasons, political, economical and professional, why I will vote No. I don't want to go into them on here due to professional reasons. But those are my views and I will vote accordingly.
Milky it's your vote so it's your choice. but economical is not one of them. Scotland WILL be better off it has already been proven.
it's political hypocrisy that is twisting the voters choice.
The Scottish oil reserves have been stated as being near depletion, this means less than 50 years left in the north sea, other sources including OPEC, have stated that there is less than 20 years left. This is a catastrophic state to be in, if it is to be believed. Other sources of revenue and fuel will need to be investigated at a cost to the taxpayer....again all very vague.
Reports of the death of North Sea oil have been greatly exaggerated but it is certainly true that it won't last forever.
It's a concern and Scotland needs to seriously plan for this, yet the UK Government has no contingency plan in place.
Scotland WILL be better off it has already been proven.
:confused:
If there's an irrefutable knock-out economic argument on either side of this debate I'd be interested in hearing it.
dizzyblonde
25-02-14, 01:53 PM
I do agree wholeheartedly....I keep seeing the slogan from Brewster's Millions
"Vote None Of The Above"
HEY, that's my line....
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MVLFO6wd5Qg/TNCg9o1MfnI/AAAAAAAABRY/gQAs2ZhbfS0/s400/329853_f520.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MVLFO6wd5Qg/TNCg9o1MfnI/AAAAAAAABRY/gQAs2ZhbfS0/s1600/329853_f520.jpg)
there is a shortfall of around 6-10% every year of revenue Scotland send down to what we receive back.
IIR oil and spirits are not included in the figures due to it being C&E, but i could be wrooooong.
it's all pie in the Sky anyhoo as people are selfish and will vote on what they think they can get out of it. so the vote results will be a No.
i'm out of here as this subject is just pizzing me off.
they should have just made a Great Britain when the union was made then all of this shizz would never have even come to light.
You're right that Scotland generates a surplus and the old suggestion that Scotland is subsidised is very easy to disprove. That doesn't tell you much about the economy of an independent Scotland though.
The future remains stubbornly unknown.
i'm out of here as this subject is just pizzing me off.
they should have just made a Great Britain when the union was made then all of this shizz would never have even come to light.
Yeah, yeah. You'll be back. :)
I believe sucessive english governments have sold their gold reserves off to fund tax cuts for the rich, but the scottish gold was not their's to sell so therefore should still be held in BoE ???? The robbin gits have probably flogged it and that is why they don't want us to split !!!
How can we be liable for a debt when we didn't get the choice to go into debt ??? As far as I am concerned if they want to make the rules they can keep their debt. We have mearly been collecting our payments or ' benefits' - so should not be liable ! If we stay in the pound - we share the debt - we're out - your debt !!!
Nobody knows how long oil will last - but as the price goes up it becomes good value to go deeper and recover more of the less accesable reserves.
pegasus
25-02-14, 02:31 PM
MBK,
I have to say, that I agree with Bibio, on the voting scenario, but I do not disagree with your opinion either, From my personal situation, I would vote with what I perceive will make things easier for my kids, and for humanity. Now don't misunderstand me, I am not of the tree hugging variety, but I have morals which make me question everything I do and the effects it will have on others.
And to be honest there is a strong sense of self in that statement, which makes it personal to me. So actually I have come full circle, I have agreed with Bibs statement but turns out I would do it for the reasons you specify...I think this is called the pendulum effect.
We are all in this together aren't we?
If it was a fair system, we would happily be in this together. But Scotland have been getting the sh**ty end of the stick for the last 50 years and time has come to sort it out.
I would have been happier with the Devo Max that the SNP were looking for, but this was 'not allowed' by our masters in the Eton Boys Club. If you let us collect taxes and pay our share we would be happy to stay together.
But the EBC didn't want that as it would have been fairer to Scotland. They thought we wouldn't vote to leave the UK and now they are trying to bully us in to staying with all the scaremongering that is going on. You want us to stay, show us what alternative to leaving you can offer, we are open to suggestions but not threats and bullying.
I believe sucessive english governments have sold their gold reserves off to fund tax cuts for the rich, but the scottish gold was not their's to sell so therefore should still be held in BoE ???? The robbin gits have probably flogged it and that is why they don't want us to split !!!
How can we be liable for a debt when we didn't get the choice to go into debt ??? As far as I am concerned if they want to make the rules they can keep their debt. We have mearly been collecting our payments or ' benefits' - so should not be liable ! If we stay in the pound - we share the debt - we're out - your debt !!!
All the gold was sold off...by the honourable member for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath so you're on shaky ground there. :p
We are voluntary members of the UK so need to accept the consequences of our combined actions IMO. To do otherwise would be unfair to the rest of UK.
andrewsmith
25-02-14, 09:12 PM
I'm making these comments as person who is a hour from the border. What ever happens North of us will have a direct impact on my home city as we're doing an awful lot of work for the North Sea fields at present.
As an area, we're a far worse state economically than Scotland has been since the 1980's (unemployment has been over 10% for the last 5 years, and everyone does jobs for rock bottom just to work. The same job as I do came up last year in Glasgow for £25k more than I am on).
I genuinely hope Scotland gets independence. It will be hilarious. No one on either side of the boarder will have a clue what to do it will be a complete mess. However I have a cunning plan…
Upon Scotland gaining independence I will instruct Adrian’s Wall to be rebuilt. This time a bit taller and will have it patrolled night and day like the 38th Parallel. The boarder will be sealed. Berwick-upon-Tweed will be decided by coin toss. All now illegal Scottish immigrants will be rounded up and deported to St Kilda after viewing The Wickerman for inspiration. I will then after lulling the Scots into a false sense of security invade this independent Scotland crushing all before me annexing it back into British territory.
Be seriously careful what you wish for. Hadrian's wall border would be this
http://www.contours.co.uk/walking-holidays/maps/hadrians-wall-path-map.gif
and the Scottish would then control the water for up to 3 million people (currently) as it stands and 20 million if they build this crackpot aquifer (Which won't work)
Nothing is guaranteed, but can you see the Scottish military being large enough to sustain a pay office that currently pays the whole of the British forces? I think not. Most of our jobs would move south as no country is going to leave their military pay office in an independent country.
Yeah I'm thinking about me but why would I vote for something that gives me a good chance to be worse off. ie loose my job, I may have a gun but I sure as hell ain't gonna shoot myself in the foot with it...
This is the British Govt. we give it to anyone who speaks English (or in MP drivel giving work to a disadvantaged country)
It's a gamble.
If you think you are going to be better off personally, you are going to vote yes and vice-versa. I am fortunate, come decision time, my job will not be on the line and I support those that it possibly could have serious repercussions for.
But unless your income, career, family, etc are in the direct firing line, my opinion, as a nation and a people, we will be better off controlling our own national finances. I would not be very keen on the idea of my next door neighbour controlling what i spend my income on, just because he has a bigger house and more family. How is this a fair system?
There are going to be difficulties and we will probably have to be a little bit worse off than we currently are for a few years, but once we get all the little things sorted out, we as a nation are quite capable of doing a better job at running our wee country. As mentioned already, we have our own law system in place, we have our own education system in place (and from 1st hand expierence better, not at the whim of a jumped up little politician) and are quite capable of sorting the other stuff out. We have a very good history of being a productive and inventive nation.
The plans to actually save our oil revenue and earn from it, instead of squander it (Norway model IIRC) will mean we struggle to start with and taxes may go up, but in the long run (10, 15 years) we will be better off.
We only went into a union for monetary reasons and I think this is the main reason to exit. Not cos i hate english or more impotantly english politicians (I do) but because we will have the country and the people as our main focus and not the people of London and the south east.
Isle of Man have their own pound !!! No reason we can't continue to use, once BoE return our gold.
I agree with Ron situations different for everyone and the IoM print their own currency and the GBP is parity.
The Norway model is starting to reap reward now they own quite a few other countries through the oil revenue, and are outside of the EU too (so haven't been shafted)
All the gold was sold off...by the honourable member for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath so you're on shaky ground there. :p
We are voluntary members of the UK so need to accept the consequences of our combined actions IMO. To do otherwise would be unfair to the rest of UK.
That will be dependent on the Devolution agreement, if they have sold it England is screwed royally.
On the issue of the debt, HBOS is owned by LloydsBanking group (English trading company) and the debt underwritten by Westminster, BoE and the treasury. RBS is a Govt. company in all but name now (around 83% state controlled).
I will say I lost money when the Govt. put Northern Rock under (it was a stay of execution for the RBS), and is now Virgin Money with NRAM (Northern Rock Asset management- Govt. entity) having everything nasty from the Rock and Bradford and Bingley and looks after some of the RBS things now
On the Banks
If the yes vote did happen, the Scottish would get the TSB immediately as a clean bank (the banking licence is registered to Edinburgh).
HBOS would be carved up in to Halifax and Bank of Scotland (again with the licences), both mostly owned by Lloyds Banking group
Clydesdale is owned by a Australian Entity (so is Yorkshire Bank)
RBS is to screwed up and will take decades before it can buy itself back to being a true PLC
We just need the EU to grow a pair and cut up Santander (They forced the split of Lloyds Banking Group)
carelesschucca
25-02-14, 09:36 PM
Best thing is TIB lit the fuze and threw the firework and is sitting back laughing...
andrewsmith
25-02-14, 09:45 PM
1) They make sure the Proclaimers never cross the border or darken our English airways again
:D
http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a426/andrewsmith1708/95684_zps5b9529d6.jpg
Dicky Ticker
26-02-14, 10:50 AM
I am a Scotsman,my birth certificate states when and where I was born,my work record by NIC's gives where I worked but I have no vote on what becomes of my Nationality.
A Chinaman working in a restaurant in Glasgow can decide this for me,even if he is only here for a few years before he goes back to China.
Do I detect a flaw in the voting system?
Yes it is a personal thing to me but I also consider my nationality to be quite an important issue which should be my decision given a choice
Anybody who has travelled the world and had dealings with embassies will appreciate that what it says on your passport can have a bearing, hence my concern, a whole new diplomatic issue if Scotland becomes independent.
Blue Flame
26-02-14, 11:12 AM
I have no issue at all with you not being allowed to vote. You don't live here so you don't get to meddle in decisions that will impact mainly on those that do live here. Harsh but fair in my opinion.
The Guru
26-02-14, 12:01 PM
I have no issue at all with you not being allowed to vote. You don't live here so you don't get to meddle in decisions that will impact mainly on those that do live here. Harsh but fair in my opinion.
I agree.
You chose to live outwith Scotland so why would you be allowed to vote?
ethariel
26-02-14, 12:11 PM
So why can every person who claims to thier 32nd cousin they are a Scot and lives outside the EU get the vote (eg living in Oz, USA, South Africa etc) when I born and bred north of the border cannot because I now live in London?
Back on the track of finances, I hope you realise it will beggar both the remainder of the Union ans Scotland for generations to actually split the Union. It's not just 'Westminster pay's us X a year and we don't spend it all', have you taken into account all the civil servants that are paid by department not location?
All the Home Office staff, UKBA, Customs and Excise (as noted above, the Military).
I'm British by Birth and a Jock by the grace of the gods (so not to inflict any single religon on anyone i'll just use Gods to keep everyone happy - Note to fellow atheists, yes i really know it's all pony anyway).
So if it's not all clear, my vote is not for a NO to independance but a YES for maintaining the Union.
dizzyblonde
26-02-14, 01:03 PM
Aye, but DT, if you were a refugee of diaspora status, you be likely to have a say on its demise.
Btw......he still ain't Scottish :lol:
Dicky Ticker
26-02-14, 01:03 PM
I am not a 32nd cousin and have claim on property in Scotland so what is decided does have an affect on me unfortunately. All I am saying is I find myself in a "Catch 22" situation with the outcome beyond anything I can vote on to influence it.
I will ask one question,--Who set the criteria for the vote Scotland or Westminster.
Milky Bar Kid
26-02-14, 01:35 PM
As much as I see where you are coming from DT, where do they draw the line? They have to draw it somewhere I'm afraid and this is what they have chosen.
Matt-EUC
26-02-14, 01:47 PM
I think the vote should be given to everyone capable of doing a Scottish accent.
dizzyblonde
26-02-14, 02:16 PM
I think the vote should be given to everyone capable of doing a Scottish accent.
Pegasus has a Scottish accent. He was born in London(narrowly missing Italy)through no fault of his own, due to the fact his country of origin were at war with each other. Turks and Greeks between the years of 1956-74. Now it has the only divided capital of Europe with the north under an illegitimate government and illegal occupation. The whole island is actually part of the EU.
In Cyprus he is classed as British Cypriot. If he went 'home' to live he would still have to do National service and would bypass residency criteria. Anyone of this nature is a citizen of Cyprus, no matter where in the world they are born if one or both their parents are Cypriots. .
Imo, and with this in mind, anyone who can prove legitimacy of birth right and an ancestry dating back to year dot.... You should have the right to vote.
However, carefully watch what you wish for Scotland, or you may find yourself in a bitter dispute for uncountable decades!!
The Guru
26-02-14, 02:53 PM
So why can every person who claims to thier 32nd cousin they are a Scot and lives outside the EU get the vote (eg living in Oz, USA, South Africa etc) when I born and bred north of the border cannot because I now live in London?...
Thats incorrect, as far as I'm aware you must reside in Scotland.
Matt-EUC
26-02-14, 02:55 PM
I visited Scotland once, do I get a vote??
carelesschucca
26-02-14, 02:59 PM
No but you'll get a game for our national football team...
carelesschucca
26-02-14, 03:21 PM
And youll be forced to wear that new strip.:smt098
Matt-EUC
26-02-14, 03:22 PM
I don't mind being forced to strip :D
ethariel
26-02-14, 04:37 PM
Thats incorrect, as far as I'm aware you must reside in Scotland.
Actually you are indeed correct and I'm wrong but then again i think it's time for a look into the legalities of denying those born in Scotland but now living else where a vote on the grounds that this will have a serious effect on my future and nationality.
Well, according to Ms Lamont we're not programmed to make political decisions in scotland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w
And apparently Ed Miliband loves Scotland. (But not enough to allow us greater devolved powers in 2015 if we don't get independence.) That pair right there (Ed and Jo) are one bloody wonderful reason to Vote Yes.
I want a better country for my child(ren) and their children, I dont want to live under Tory Diktat, or be taken into more illegal wars by Labour. I want a free NHS (something the Tories are eradicating rapidly in England). Scotland will be better off independent.
It's a yes from me.
Full debate can be seen here: http://news.stv.tv/politics/265442-scotland-tonight-nicola-sturgeon-and-johann-lamont-clash-in-debate/
Actually you are indeed correct and I'm wrong but then again i think it's time for a look into the legalities of denying those born in Scotland but now living else where a vote on the grounds that this will have a serious effect on my future and nationality.
As I understand it you would continue to be a British citizen but would also automatically be considered a Scottish citizen. Any children or grandchildren would be eligible to apply for Scottish citizenship if they chose.
It's less clear what would happen to, say, an Englishman living in Scotland (the UK Govt hasn't said) but it seems likely dual nationality would also apply.
I want a better country for my child(ren) and their children, I dont want to live under Tory Diktat, or be taken into more illegal wars by Labour. I want a free NHS (something the Tories are eradicating rapidly in England). Scotland will be better off independent.
It's a yes from me.
:smt023
carelesschucca
28-02-14, 10:16 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5cUxawA_6w
gotta love a bit of McGlashan. Sorry for the language
The Basket
01-03-14, 03:31 PM
As I understand it you would continue to be a British citizen but would also automatically be considered a Scottish citizen. Any children or grandchildren would be eligible to apply for Scottish citizenship if they chose.
It's less clear what would happen to, say, an Englishman living in Scotland (the UK Govt hasn't said) but it seems likely dual nationality would also apply.
Why would an English man living in Scotland need dual nationality?
dizzyblonde
01-03-14, 03:59 PM
Why would an English man living in Scotland need dual nationality?
I suppose it would be similar to Cyprus. If you are a Turkish Cypriot living in the north, you have a north passport. However, as the north is illegal, you also have a passport for the RoC, as the RoC(like the UK in this Instance) is the island in which you actually live in(and legally stands in Cyprus'case).
. So, in essence you have two passports. One for the north, one for the entire island.
This could possibly be the outcome for Scotland if it was independent.
No vote is ever so less complicated ;-)
Why would an English man living in Scotland need dual nationality?
It might just be that's the position in the event of a Yes vote. Everyone living in Scotland would become Scottish nationals automatically.
At the moment, we're all British nationals and what we don't know is whether the UK Govt would withdraw that status. I would hope they wouldn't, at least for those from other countries in the UK, so they can avoid being foreigners in their former home country.
The Basket
01-03-14, 04:44 PM
It might just be that's the position in the event of a Yes vote. Everyone living in Scotland would become Scottish nationals automatically.
What happens to the other EU nationals in Scotland? If Scotland is not part of the EU then what happens?
What happens to outside EU nationals who have been given British Nationality who live in Scotland?
What happens to Scottish residents who dont want to be Scottish?
What happens to the other EU nationals in Scotland? If Scotland is not part of the EU then what happens?
Their nationality wouldn't change. In theory, I suppose they'd be subject to whatever immigration rules are put in place by the Scottish Government (planned to be a points based system) so if they met the criteria for skills/work etc they would be entitled to stay. However, if Scotland wanted to pursue membership of the EU I think it's unlikely that any EU citizens would be expelled anytime soon.
What happens to outside EU nationals who have been given British Nationality who live in Scotland?
Anyone living in Scotland who has British nationality automatically becomes a Scottish citizen. Their country of origin doesn't matter.
What happens to Scottish residents who dont want to be Scottish?
Depends what you mean. You get the rights and obligations of a citizen whether you want them or not. If you continue to hold a British passport you won't need a Scottish one. So far as how you choose to identify yourself, that's up to you.
The Basket
01-03-14, 09:12 PM
Anyone living in Scotland who has British nationality automatically becomes a Scottish citizen. Their country of origin doesn't matter.
.
Vladimir Putin would disagree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE
Vladimir Putin would disagree.
Eh? Don't get it,
MisterTommyH
02-03-14, 12:52 AM
Just to play devils advocate for a minute..... It doesn't seem to have been mentioned that it may not be Scotlands choice if it joints the EU, or the Euro. I understand that they would need to meet a lot of criteria, and obtain consent / votes from existing member states. Spain for one certainly has its own reasons for not recognising / admitting a 'new' state.
pegasus
02-03-14, 08:30 AM
This is still a brilliant debate, and lots of great questions being asked,
Please allow me to add something into the mix,
Firstly, what would happen when a "Scottish Citizen" has a problem when abroad? ... would they still be welcome at the British Embassy or Consulate?
There seems to be a general consensus that decisions are being made by the PTB that will benefit the population. I cant help feeling that the population are secondary and that the politicians are making decisions as would Directors of a business in a boardroom, ie Scotland is an industrial estate, and the population are the workforce. I hope you understand what I mean. The business must come first at all costs!
P
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