View Full Version : Help! Don't get the law on towing...
Hey org!
Trying to work out what the first option under 1997+ pass is here:
https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/driving-licence-rules-and-what-you-can-tow
Am I reading it right that, if the total towed weight is under 750kg, you can have a vehicle up to 3500kg?
Trying to get 3 guys plus gear and bikes with a trailer somewhere but so far I have only been able to find a single or double can hilux with a towbar.
Seems no rental places local to me have towbars on smaller cars!
Cheers!
Why not hire a luton van instead? Much easier than towing, and you will have more room.
Not 100% keen on van, it would be easier but it's not just me and we can all agree on a trailer lol
Wideboy
30-07-14, 07:44 PM
trailer and load cannot exceed 750kg and the combined weight of the car+trailer+ trailer load+car load=cannot exceed 3500.
basically if you get taken to a weigh station, weighed and it all comes over 3500kg.. You're ****ed
you'll be hard pushed to get a trailer and three bikes weighing under 750kg IMO
Red Herring
30-07-14, 07:59 PM
OK, firstly you need to understand the difference between what it actually weighs, and MAM. MAM is the heaviest it's allowed to be, not what it actually weighs at the time you are stopped and it's on the vehicle build plate (under the bonnet or just inside the door).
At the moment you are allowed to drive a vehicle up to 3500kg MAM, so most cars and Transit sized goods vehicles etc. If you want to put a trailer on the back of your 3500kg Transit then it mustn't have a MAM over 750kg (so you can't tow a car trailer even if it's empty). As a rough guide any trailer with brakes is usually over 750kg because that's the cut off weight for getting away without them. I've got a three bike trailer that just goes under, but it's designed for three dirt bikes, not three Goldwings.....
If you do want to tow a trailer with a MAM over 750kg then you need to look at the MAM of the tow vehicle and add it to the MAM of the trailer, and the total mustn't be over 3500kg. Basically this set up is quite rare to find, I think the only time I found it was a bloke pulling a small road roller with his Astra Van.
Good luck......
Quick edit as I've just realized you are on a post 97 licence, if the MAM of the trailer is over 750kg then it's the actual weight of the tow car, ie: what it actually weighs when you are driving it (with your three passengers) that counts, not the MAM. You can see why they changed it to the MAM for later licence holders!
Argh!!
Ok what about the second part, it doesn't mention vehicle mam? Just total weight..
Red Herring
30-07-14, 09:03 PM
Hence my last edit when I realized you were a post 97 licence rather than a Jan 13 one.
The problem with the 97 legislation was that it relied on the driver knowing how much the tow vehicle actually weighs, which lets face it is virtually impossible unless you find a friendly copper who will take you to a nearby weighbridge, which hardly seemed fair!
If you want to tow a trailer with three bikes on it then if it's a reasonably well built trailer, and you put three 200kg odd bikes on it which covers things like SVs and such like, then allow about 800-900kg for the all up weight of the trailer. This leaves you in the region of 2500kg for the tow vehicle with you and your mates in it.
Most 4x4s come in between 2000kg to 2500kg so don't plan on using anything like that. A reasonable size saloon car like a Mondeo or similar is about 1500kg so if you get something like that to tow with you should be OK.
Ah yes, sorry didn't see the edit! Phew!!
Thought we were completely scuppered!! :)
BanannaMan
30-07-14, 09:15 PM
"Any trailer weighing over 750 kilograms, including its load, must have a working brake system."
Same in the US.
2 bikes you can do but you'll need a 2 axle trailer with brakes to haul 3 bikes.
Wideboy
30-07-14, 09:30 PM
I was told wrong then when I was towing
I was told I couldn't tow a combined weight over 750kg for the trailer and the overall weight of car and trailer couldn't exceed 3500kg. I was also told anything over 750kg had to be braked but you weren't allowed to tow a braked trailer unless you took a test. That was from someone supposed to be a traffic plod.
I gave up towing because I couldn't be arsed with the hassle.
Mrs DJ Fridge
30-07-14, 10:20 PM
Just remember if you get to the weighbridge and you are overweight you cannot drive it all away, even to go home, you will need a friend with a trailer to come and rescue you. Same as with horse boxes, if you are overweight you have to get someone to come and pick up your horse for you before you can continue, at least that is what my HGV driving instructor told me.
If you sort out weights, licenses etc, look at fitting a towbar to one of your cars. May work out cheaper than renting a 4x4. Pretty straight forward job, detachable ones can't be seen when detached and plenty of used ones on Ebay if you look.
That's our plan for next year, my mate will get a bar fitted to his car but it's currently under warranty and they said it will be invalidated if he fits one. Especially as his clutch may be going and they will cover that.
I'm now trying to find a smaller car to rent with a towbar as a 4x4 will be too heavy grrr
yorkie_chris
31-07-14, 06:58 AM
Hence my last edit when I realized you were a post 97 licence rather than a Jan 13 one.
The problem with the 97 legislation was that it relied on the driver knowing how much the tow vehicle actually weighs, which lets face it is virtually impossible unless you find a friendly copper who will take you to a nearby weighbridge, which hardly seemed fair!
If you want to tow a trailer with three bikes on it then if it's a reasonably well built trailer, and you put three 200kg odd bikes on it which covers things like SVs and such like, then allow about 800-900kg for the all up weight of the trailer. This leaves you in the region of 2500kg for the tow vehicle with you and your mates in it.
Most 4x4s come in between 2000kg to 2500kg so don't plan on using anything like that. A reasonable size saloon car like a Mondeo or similar is about 1500kg so if you get something like that to tow with you should be OK.
Under the 1997> rules am I right in thinking you could theoretically tow a 750kg (loaded to the max lets say), behind an also laden 3500kg van?
Is the fact of whether the trailer is braked or not relevant? (except as far as a >750kg trailer must have brakes)
Soooo just found out the kerb weight on the hilux is only 1910kg so gives us 1590kg to play with! Excellent.
Now, insurance! Thoughts on wether the bikes policy would cover it on a trailer? As the cars won't.
why dont you just ride the bikes to your destination?
Because I am a pussy and may not have sufficient time haha
it will take you longer to get there with a car + trailer.
how far are you going?
Bournemouth to rockingham.
It's not a massive distance, but my back is playing up so don't want to risk knackering it out on the ride there and not be able to ride the trackday or not get home.
We also want the trailer for just in case.
If we have to, we'll ride but want to absolutely rule out the cozy option first
160 miles. hire a long wheelbase and buy a ramp if you think there might be messed up bikes going home.
Just remember if you get to the weighbridge and you are overweight you cannot drive it all away, even to go home, you will need a friend with a trailer to come and rescue you. Same as with horse boxes, if you are overweight you have to get someone to come and pick up your horse for you before you can continue, at least that is what my HGV driving instructor told me.
There is a bit of wiggle room on that point but broadly correct.
Lwb has been ruled out on the basis of, wouldn't know where to start in terms of positioning and securing. I have only ever transported single bikes in a van before.
I was thinking the 3 bikes in a line from front to back on a diagonal but don't know if there's enough room? It's got to fit an r1, gixxer 750 and my sv. The other 2 aren't the smallest!
Also opinions on side stands or paddock stands? My initial thought was def not a paddock stand but my mate suggested it as he has some for his bike.
Secure the bike to the paddock stand then the stand to the floor of the van.
Need lots of blankets too!!
get a bar fitted to his car but it's currently under warranty and they said it will be invalidated if he fits one.
Strange how many dealers say that to make you buy their bars. We fit tow bars at work for main dealers and they don't seem to have issues with it.
Phoenix22
31-07-14, 05:45 PM
One of those drive in front wheel clamps would be more stable for transporting in a van.
Strange how many dealers say that to make you buy their bars. We fit tow bars at work for main dealers and they don't seem to have issues with it.
They don't actually do a towbar for it which is why we have to get it done by an outside source. My mate is happy to do that once the warranty is over but if the clutch goes in the warranty doesn't want any hassle.
One of those drive in front wheel clamps would be more stable for transporting in a van.
Was thinking of zip tying the front brake on and strapping down with ratchets
Blue motion golf, they said they don't do one because of the bumper
Erm, it's on a 61 plate. No idea what mk they are on anymore lol
Blue motion golf, they said they don't do one because of the bumper
On my Parents A1, you have to change the main bar behind the bumper for one that takes a tow bar. Theirs is also brand new & under warranty. Its covered too, as its the proper kit fitted by them. VW are probs the same as Audi and is about £500 for the kit!
Which if true is an absolute rip off! Got a local place that will do it drive in and out for £240!
The tow bar is a u-shaped lump of metal that slides into the chassis rails after the impact beam is removed and is held with four bolts. Usually to get a decent look, you can get a lower bumper section from VW/Audi with a cut out. Very odd that a dealer wouldn't do a bar. The price might be off putting but should still list one. You would be lucky to get a dealer bar for £500. Try closer to a grand!
Which if true is an absolute rip off! Got a local place that will do it drive in and out for £240!
it's the price you pay for these 'premium' brands!
The tow bar is a u-shaped lump of metal that slides into the chassis rails after the impact beam is removed and is held with four bolts. Usually to get a decent look, you can get a lower bumper section from VW/Audi with a cut out. Very odd that a dealer wouldn't do a bar. The price might be off putting but should still list one. You would be lucky to get a dealer bar for £500. Try closer to a grand!
its handy having someone who can get you a great discount ;)
You stole it didn't you Job!!! I knew you were shifty!!
I might try calling a different vw dealer and see if they give a different answer. It may be because they recognised the car. My mate contacted them a few days before and was given similar and different reasons. One said it stops it being a bluemotion anymore so that's why as well as farking up the bumper.
As it stands this other place with instal a permanent one that doesn't go near the bumper at all so that's a win for next year
DJFridge
31-07-14, 09:50 PM
Just a thought, as well as the total vehicle plus trailer weight issue, is there not also a maximum weight you can tow with a given vehicle weight? So if the trailer weighs X, your towing vehicle has to be a minimum of X plus something, to stop people towing 2 ton caravans with VW Polos I presume (tail completely wagging the dog).
Yeah trailer + load can't exceed max tow weight (prob wrong term), but shouldn't be an issue as should come in under a tonne, I hope!!
Red Herring
31-07-14, 10:04 PM
Under the 1997> rules am I right in thinking you could theoretically tow a 750kg (loaded to the max lets say), behind an also laden 3500kg van?
Is the fact of whether the trailer is braked or not relevant? (except as far as a >750kg trailer must have brakes)
Yes. The trailer MAM must not exceed 750, and very few trailers with a MAM under 750kg will have brakes. So in theory the train weight (the actual weight of the trailer and tow vehicle combined) could be 4,250kg.
If the MAM of the trailer is over 750kg then the actual train weight mustn't be over 3,500kg.
dirtydog
01-08-14, 06:54 AM
I dont get why you are fannying around with getting a 4x4 and trailer etc instead of just hiring a lwb van? Only reasons I can see are because "it's just not me" (which is a bit mental IMHO) and you don't know how to load/secure them. If it was me I'd go for the van much less hassle, you're already having hassle with car and trailer and you haven't even got it yet.
The other thing to consider is that after a big off at a trackday one of the bikes might not even go back on the trailer properly then you have the added hassle of making it safe and secure for travelling.
Main reason for not going with a van so far is as I stated earlier, wouldn't know where to start with securing etc. not 100% confident or knowledgable there.
Most I have carried in the back of a van is 1 bike which was fine.
More than that and not sure on positioning etc I had thought something like this:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/01/dyruvyne.jpg
But don't know if the 3 bikes would fit that way or if there is a better way?
dirtydog
01-08-14, 08:11 AM
If they fit that way then do it that way or do 2 at the front against the bulk head (if it has one) and then one behind so pretty much in a V shape. Tie all of the front brakes on and then strap 'em down
Red Herring
01-08-14, 08:14 AM
The main problem with putting bikes in hire vans is that very rarely do they come with appropriate tie down points. If you are lucky they will be lined with plywood, worse case scenario you get a nice new one with nothing inside to protect either your bike or the van from an errant handlebar/brake lever and you end up losing your deposit.
If you do want to put two or three half decent bikes in a van the best way is to take your bed with you.....
Put a mattress against the side of the van, put one bike against the mattress on a paddock stand, put the other bike opposite in the same way (just lock the side door so nobody opens it) and then put a third mattress down the middle between them. With the front wheels up against the back of the seats all you need to do is tie the front wheel to the base of the seat to stop the bike going back, and it's going nowhere. If it's a long wheelbase you can get a third bike in the middle at the back but you will need another big cushion to go between the front of the bike and the back of the bike that hasn't got the mattress against it.... and then make sure the back of the bike is up against the rear doors and you can usually tie it to something by the back doors to stop it going forward.
Has the advantage that when you get there all three of you have somewhere to sleep....
Matt-EUC
01-08-14, 01:50 PM
Alternatively, make sure the van you're hiring has all the tie-down points. I'm fairly sure they're fitted as standard.
Sent via the medium of interpretive dance.
Wideboy
01-08-14, 02:17 PM
Standard tie town points aren't always bike appropriate. Most vans don't have any in the middle which is why those wheel chock things went on the market. Which are well worth the money.
Ok, another question. Any legal issues with carrying 20-40l of spare fuel in the van with us? Was thinking of taking a couple of Gerry cans
yorkie_chris
09-08-14, 08:45 AM
Be reet.
The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 (CDG), as amended by The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2005 require that petrol should be carried in UN approved containers (called Packages), which are properly stowed on the vehicle. The packages should be marked with the "flammable" diamond and with the UN number for petrol (UN 1203). Up to 333 litres may be carried as a "small load" which means that only general training needs to be given to the driver and that the vehicle only needs to carry 1 2kg fire extinguisher. These regulations do not affect purely private carriage.
No issues just make sure that that are secure so they wont fall over and spill!
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