View Full Version : Bereaved family releases shocking video
:smt011
and I was beginning to think the forum had grown up a bit.
hahahaaaa, you what. while i'm still kicking it will never be grown up and i hope it never does become a serious place to be ;) :kiss:
Specialone
08-09-14, 10:46 PM
I don't think the rider was being a knob tbh, just a bad call on the day, I do knobby stuff all the time, sometimes we all make bad calls but just get away with it.
Healthy debate of the incident is good, insults directed to the rider serve no purpose.
I dislike passing junctions like this, regardless of how fast I'm going. In essence you don't really know for a fact if a driver has seen you or not until you have passed them safely, which means we all pass cars at a point of no return, ie we couldn't stop or swerve even if we wanted to should they pull out in front at the last second for whatever reason.
In addition, I do not see the merits or point in attempting to attribute blame to this accident. All accidents happen due to a chain of events. As RH said, we need to learn from this accident so we don't make the same mistake. I would also guess that the majority of riders on here at one time or another have probably passed a junction like this where had a car pulled out in front of them they probably could not have avoided it. The family didn't upload this video to generate a load of biker heroes on forums saying "Oh I would never have got myself into that situation etc". It's here to help people learn from it, and for that I fully commend the family. It can't be easy.
Fordward
09-09-14, 07:37 AM
which means we all pass cars at a point of no return, ie we couldn't stop or swerve even if we wanted to should they pull out in front at the last second for whatever reason
Like Dipper said earlier, I wouldn't be riding if I didn't believe 99.9% of these situations were avoidable.
There's two points of no return, one where you can't stop, another where you can't swerve. If your that close and a car starts to move, your close enough to crack open the throttle and get through the gap before they do. Unless they have a sporty car and they are trying to practice their drag starts, or it's another motorbike. And that's just the 0.1% of freak accidents that you can't avoid. We all know by how quickly we leave cars standing at traffic lights how long it takes cars to get moving from a standstill, due to their weight and inertia.
There's all kind of signals that a car is about to move, like the drivers hand coming up to the steering wheel, the front wheel starts to turn, or if you can see them from your angle, the brake lights going off.
That unavoidable 0.1% (or whatever the percentage may be), you can't worry about that because you could have an accident in a car, at work, doing dangerous sports, or get hit by a drunk driver while walking down the pavement.
You just have to do your very best to avoid the other 99.9%
It's not about being a hero and say we wouldn't get into that situation. It's about helping new riders like ManMango understand what they can do to mitigate the risk and keep themselves alive.
Biker Biggles
09-09-14, 02:00 PM
I dislike passing junctions like this, regardless of how fast I'm going. In essence you don't really know for a fact if a driver has seen you or not until you have passed them safely, which means we all pass cars at a point of no return, ie we couldn't stop or swerve even if we wanted to should they pull out in front at the last second for whatever reason.
In addition, I do not see the merits or point in attempting to attribute blame to this accident. All accidents happen due to a chain of events. As RH said, we need to learn from this accident so we don't make the same mistake. I would also guess that the majority of riders on here at one time or another have probably passed a junction like this where had a car pulled out in front of them they probably could not have avoided it. The family didn't upload this video to generate a load of biker heroes on forums saying "Oh I would never have got myself into that situation etc". It's here to help people learn from it, and for that I fully commend the family. It can't be easy.
Totally agree
How are you anyway?Fully qualified and let loose on Joe public yet?:cool:
keith_d
09-09-14, 02:12 PM
I've joined this debate a bit late for all the fireworks.
So far as I can see, there were faults on both sides of and there's no point getting into an argument about what ifs. Just get out there, have fun and don't assume that motorists will behave in a rational way.
Remember, there are two kinds of car driver out there. Those that are trying to kill you, and those that haven't seen you (yet).
Keith.
Remember, there are two kinds of car driver out there. Those that are trying to kill you, and those that haven't seen you (yet).
Keith.
This.
One of the scariest moments I've had recently was on a pushbike.... I'm on a roundabout, I have very bright lights and Hi Vis. There are no cars behind or in front of me, a car pulls up and stops at the line to enter the roundabout, I've made eye contact and assumed he's seen me as there's no reason for him to slow or stop as there's no other traffic but after I pass in front of him he pulls forward and accelerates towards the rear of my bike, I stamp on the pedals and hear a screech from behind as he finally sees me missing me by the thickness of a fag paper. Lesson learnt that day even if they stop it's probably to read a text or have a quick J. Arthur....
If this idiot can't see this policeman, what hope have as normal biker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIvUM41gQA
Treat other users like sharks
Some of them fekers Bite
There have been many discussions about this incident on many forums, with all sorts of views expressed. I'll not pass any comment on this case, however.......
..just consider a similar hypothetical "reversed" incident.
A moped rider is approaching a junction to turn right and judges a car in the distance to be far enough away to take the turn assuming it is doing a "reasonable" or typical speed. What he doesn't assess correctly is that it is doing 100mph not 50mph. As he turns across the junction the car reaches him, swerving to the left, and clips the moped front wheel. The moped rider escapes unhurt. The car continues into a tree and the driver is killed.
Should the moped rider be prosecuted for careless (etc) driving? What would your views be regarding the car driver's actions, not doing anything wrong, unlucky not to get away with it, or a fatality looking for somewhere to happen and a danger to all other road users?
Just a thought.
Spank86
09-09-14, 03:40 PM
Whoever dies in the incident the one that lives should be prosecuted.
I think your missing the point embee
I think your missing the point embee
Sorry. What point am I missing?
I'm just posing a hypothetical situation for consideration.
Whoever dies in the incident the one that lives should be prosecuted.
Hi Spank, any chance you could explain the logic of your statement? Does not compute for me :confused:
The educational point.
It's what it's all about.
But I can't see,other than the different types of vehicle involved what is different about your question and what occurred in this collision are is?
You might as well say. If it had been a red bike and a sky blue car.
The educational point.
It's what it's all about.
...............
Ah, OK, righty ho. Job done.
Spank86
09-09-14, 06:08 PM
Hi Spank, any chance you could explain the logic of your statement? Does not compute for me :confused:
Because they both did things that could be considered somewhere between driving without due care and attention and dangerous driving but as far as I'm aware dying gets you off the hook as far as the courts are concerned.
Spank86
09-09-14, 06:11 PM
The educational point.
It's what it's all about.
I agree, and that's why I think it's important to discuss the idea that he would have been ok if he'd gone to the right.
In hindsight it's probably true but there's been at least one poster commenting that he learned to always go right in that situation which is definitely not the case for reasons I've already gone into.
My personal view is that the right action immediately upon noticing the problem (when he says whoa I guess) would have been to hammer the brakes for all he's worth before committing to a direction change, but I'm open to being convinced there's a better way since I've not been in that situation for real.
Phoenix22
09-09-14, 06:49 PM
When he said whoa was way to late and I rekon none of us could have avoided a collision at that stage. A lot of you, rightly so say you are wary at junctions like this. But for some reason only known to himself sadly, after overtaking the Aygo David carried on accelerating towards a potential hazard. Well, it was potential at the time but very quickly turned into cruel reality.
Fordward
09-09-14, 06:50 PM
My personal view is that the right action immediately upon noticing the problem (when he says whoa I guess) would have been to hammer the brakes for all he's worth before committing to a direction change, but I'm open to being convinced there's a better way since I've not been in that situation for real.
My personal view is he should have noticed the potential for a problem much earlier, and decided in advance what he was going to do if the car did pull across in front of him. It's called having a riding plan.
He had 6 opportunities to avoid that accident
1. The triangular warning sign telling him the junction was coming up
2. The solid white line on the left turning to a broken white line
3. The junction itself coming into view
4. The oncoming cars right indicator
5. The oncoming car pulling over into the filter lane.
6. Don't do that speed down there in the first place.
All of those should have rung alarm bells in his head for a possible danger, and 4 and 5 in particular should have told him there was a very real danger of a car pulling across in front of him.
Fordward
09-09-14, 06:58 PM
When he said whoa was way to late and I rekon none of us could have avoided a collision at that stage.
I agree, assuming I'd ignored all the warning signs and got myself into that mess, I'm not sure I could have avoided it at that speed.
This guy did manage quite a swerve at quite a speed though...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdq46lIVm4M&sns=em
Jdq46lIVm4M&sns
Spank86
09-09-14, 07:11 PM
My personal view is he should have noticed the potential for a problem much earlier, and decided in advance what he was going to do if the car did pull across in front of him. It's called having a riding plan.
He had 6 opportunities to avoid that accident
1. The triangular warning sign telling him the junction was coming up
2. The solid white line on the left turning to a broken white line
3. The junction itself coming into view
4. The oncoming cars right indicator
5. The oncoming car pulling over into the filter lane.
6. Don't do that speed down there in the first place.
All of those should have rung alarm bells in his head for a possible danger, and 4 and 5 in particular should have told him there was a very real danger of a car pulling across in front of him.
I don't disagree there and I can't imagine purposefully putting myself in that position either, I was merely trying to discuss possibilities once you're in the situation. I mean if he'd seen the problem earlier going left the way he didmay also have been a possible exit since he could have slowed enough to actually turn onto the other road.
Fordward
09-09-14, 07:18 PM
I don't disagree there and I can't imagine purposefully putting myself in that position either, I was merely trying to discuss possibilities once you're in the situation
I see, I misunderstood. Yeah, once he was in that situation he was pretty much fecked I think.
Red Herring
09-09-14, 07:53 PM
If it helps contribute towards the theme of this thread, ie: what can we learn from this and what could we do if we see a similar situation developing in front of us, I'd like to contribute that when I am approaching a junction like this with a car potentially moving into a position to turn across me I am already looking at my options, and these obviously evolve as I approach.
For example my initial reaction is to check what is behind me (I won't be able to brake hard if there is someone up my chuff, also he is less likely to pull in front of me if there is also a car coming down the road...), second I will consider my position, can I move to the left to give myself more room or is there another car potentially coming out from the junction that I also need to allow for, thirdly do I need to adjust my speed to give us both more time to react, and all the time I am assessing possible escape routes to either the nearside or offside. Finally in the last stages of the approach I'm weighting the pegs as the best escape plan for me if they do finally move is to go straight up into the air. This may sound like an awful lot to think about for every situation but with practice it becomes second nature and you find yourself always looking at options for every possible hazard and situation. By thinking about it and planning beforehand you save yourself a considerable amount of time when it eventually (and it will one day) does happen and more importantly by having a predetermined plan you are less likely to just freeze up and do nothing.
Just to add a bit of real life to the up in the air thing.
I managed quite by accident to do this on a collision with a Cortina when I had a GPZ 900 r.
I think it was more of the fact I was in a stoppie attitude rather than thinking about it. Ok I wasn't going 90+ but about 60. Fubard the bike and the car but just nipped my thumb.
Phoenix22
09-09-14, 09:00 PM
you are less likely to just freeze up and do nothing
This is pretty much what i said before about target fixation but for some reason got berated for it!! Also, i'm surprised to hear nobody has mentioned counterstearing. We all do it subconciously everyday when riding normally but there are situations when you have to overide your 'normal' riding mode & push it a bit.
Take a look at target fixation here, it's not me preaching here, it is fact!!.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation
Counterstearing also here....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Both of these techniques will obviously require the rider to be on the ball at the time to be able to overide your natural instinct but could potentially save your life.
Any modern sportsbike will be able to do this with very little input from the rider very easily. But take something a bit heavier then it will take more rider input although utimately just as capable.
Target fixation is real. No one has said it isn't.
Freezing up at the realisation that you are going to hit something is also real.
The 2 second rule is about giving time to proses info and act.
In the video I don't think he braked (I accept the fact I am likely to be wrong) at the point where I would.
Maybe because I ride past a Junction 2 a day that's a bit Russian roulette I am pre dispositiond to slow down and today stand it on her nose it's just school of hard knocks. And I ve be lucky enough to get away with it..... So far
For example my initial reaction is to check what is behind me (I won't be able to brake hard if there is someone up my chuff, also he is less likely to pull in front of me if there is also a car coming down the road...), second I will consider my position, can I move to the left to give myself more room or is there another car potentially coming out from the junction that I also need to allow for, thirdly do I need to adjust my speed to give us both more time to react, and all the time I am assessing possible escape routes to either the nearside or offside. Finally in the last stages of the approach I'm weighting the pegs as the best escape plan for me if they do finally move is to go straight up into the air. This may sound like an awful lot to think about for every situation but with practice it becomes second nature and you find yourself always looking at options for every possible hazard and situation. By thinking about it and planning beforehand you save yourself a considerable amount of time when it eventually (and it will one day) does happen and more importantly by having a predetermined plan you are less likely to just freeze up and do nothing.
^ That helps in avoiding this ....
Take a look at target fixation here, it's not me preaching here, it is fact!!.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation
Phoenix22
09-09-14, 09:45 PM
Yes but by knowing it is real & exists could have prevented this tragedy. None of us are perfect riders and we all make mistakes. Re-watch the closing stages of that video & ask yourself what you would have done in that situation...ideally. I have no idea why he rode in this way, none of us ever will, maybe he had an argument at home or problems at work that took his mind off things for a bit?
Fordward
09-09-14, 09:46 PM
Phoenix....
I can understand why countersteering hasn't been mentioned, most people on ths thread are experienced enough bikers, so it's kind of taken as a given that we all know about it, but taking complete newbies into account it's a good point to make and an important one. :thumbsup:
Also, don't worry about people not believing you when you comes to target fixation. I think most people on this thread know pretty well what it is and that it's a real phenomenon, and yes you are absolutely right that it probably came in to play here.
As you say it's not just a case of you preaching, but you probably are preaching to the converted ;-) :smt025
Fordward
09-09-14, 09:51 PM
If it helps contribute towards the theme of this thread, ie: what can we learn from this and what could we do if we see a similar situation developing in front of us, I'd like to contribute that when I am approaching a junction like this with a car potentially moving into a position to turn across me I am already looking at my options, and these obviously evolve as I approach.
For example my initial reaction is to check what is behind me (I won't be able to brake hard if there is someone up my chuff, also he is less likely to pull in front of me if there is also a car coming down the road...), second I will consider my position, can I move to the left to give myself more room or is there another car potentially coming out from the junction that I also need to allow for, thirdly do I need to adjust my speed to give us both more time to react, and all the time I am assessing possible escape routes to either the nearside or offside. Finally in the last stages of the approach I'm weighting the pegs as the best escape plan for me if they do finally move is to go straight up into the air. This may sound like an awful lot to think about for every situation but with practice it becomes second nature and you find yourself always looking at options for every possible hazard and situation. By thinking about it and planning beforehand you save yourself a considerable amount of time when it eventually (and it will one day) does happen and more importantly by having a predetermined plan you are less likely to just freeze up and do nothing.
If this forum had a like or a thank you button, I'd have clicked it :D
Phoenix22
09-09-14, 10:04 PM
That's a fair comment and at no point have i doubted the ability of anybodies riding skill or experience here.....I don't know them & have never ridden with them. All i am doing is commenting on what i have seen in that video, subsequent comments, and giving my opinions on it.
That was the whole point of the OP starting the thread in the first place surely to invite comment & debate?
Fordward
09-09-14, 10:16 PM
That's a fair comment and at no point have i doubted the ability of anybodies riding skill or experience here.....I don't know them & have never ridden with them. All i am doing is commenting on what i have seen in that video, subsequent comments, and giving my opinions on it.
That was the whole point of the OP starting the thread in the first place surely to invite comment & debate?
Didn't say you had. Good points well made. Cool beans! ;) :makelurve:
:smt040
Debate is good. Focusing thoughts on what others would do. Experience of others and a system as discussed by Red. All good stuff
How are you anyway?Fully qualified and let loose on Joe public yet?:cool:
Very well thanks BB and you? Yep been qualified for 2 years now and causing all kinds of havoc already:D
shiftin_gear98
11-09-14, 01:33 PM
I personally would like to thank everyone who has commented on this thread in one way or another. I have been riding for around 5 years now, but consider myself very much a newbie.
I have had a few shall we say close shaves, all part of the learning curve.
But if I can learn from others experiences and way broader knowledge then I am all for that. It hurts too much when you do it yourself.
I'm not getting any younger (38 years young) I don't bounce very well anymore.
So I value everyone's view, please keep them coming.
Big up OMO. :smt038
I am sure if you can do allot of the things in the motorcycle road craft book, your can lower the chance of getting in such a bad situation.
I'm 52 but putting the effort in signing up with rospa. (wrong time of year in a way).Because I know I should ride safer.
Dave-the-rave
11-09-14, 02:00 PM
Slow down around obvious hazards. That's my view and it's how I ride. The junction on the left is an obvious hazard. The oncoming car maneuvering to turn into it is an obvious hazard. Together they make an even bigger hazard.
Don't make assumptions. Don't assume the oncoming cars intentions were clear. Don't assume his speed. Don't assume the junction on the left was clear. Don't assume there wasn't a hidden junction on the right. Don't assume anything about other road users and be wary of what you assume about yourself.
Do assume you can be dead in a heartbeat, or lose your legs, or end up brain dead. Do assume there's worse than dead. Allow yourself to feel vulnerable on your bike because you ARE vulnerable. We all take chances some more than others and we usually get away with it, but sometimes we don't, especially when another road user in close proximity is taking chances.
''Motorcyclists represent 1% of traffic yet account for up to 20% of the deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Motorcyclists involved in accidents are 40 times more likely to be killed than car drivers.''
http://www.bikelawyer.co.uk/bike-accident-statistics
Nobody sees it coming until it's too late. No point arguing about how to deal with it when it's too late.
Don't put the fear in people too though.
I enjoy the feeling of freedom a bike gives.
Sarah caught this video on Facebook.
It did invoke a fair few conversations about my commute and the general hobby,relaxation ridding I do. (6000 miles a year +).
But you can only do so much.
Do assume there's worse than dead.
So very very true.
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