View Full Version : Bereaved family releases shocking video
Bereaved family releases shocking video to raise awareness of motorbikes and riders on our roads
Hard-hitting footage of a fatal collision in Norfolk has been released by police in a bid to get motorcyclists and drivers to think seriously about road safety.
The dramatic film, captured on a headcam fitted to the rider’s helmet, shows the moment a car crosses into the path of Norwich motorcyclist David Holmes who was killed on the A47 at Honingham in June last year (2013).
David’s story, a video featuring clips including the collision as well as an interview with his mother Brenda, has been produced by police with the full support of all his family, who hope the campaign will prevent further deaths.
Now its also doing the round on the F Book!
Does have a video but you find it if you want as its not really "U".
Just be careful out there people.
I'm not sure if it has a great impact on drivers but if it only saves one life its worth it
454697819
05-09-14, 11:41 AM
I watched it last night and it has played on my mind a bit, the comments from keyboard warriors on FB irritated me too -
Its a very hard hitting video, and sad for all involved -
its also very easy as a motorcyclist to watch the video and critique his riding - what would I do differently is what needs to be taken away from this video- its too late for him.
Its so easy in a car to make a "mistake" but this clearly demonstrates the seriousness of hesitation and lack of attention cam have such hard hitting implications,
rip.
I rarely comment on this sort of thing because there's always too much blaming going on when these things happen, an accident is rarely clear cut and is usually caused by a combination of events....
However it's commendable the family put this out there to try and make both drivers/riders think.
Specialone
05-09-14, 11:47 AM
As I've said on a couple of forums, totally avoidable by the rider, even putting his 97 mph speed aside, he didn't anticipate that car, if he seen it at all, I just wouldn't trust a car to see me in that situation, his excess speed didn't give him much time to react to it.
Just shows how things can change in a heartbeat. It will certainly make me think next time I'm out on the road, both as a driver and rider.
Take it easy folks.
Wideboy
05-09-14, 12:06 PM
How have they managed to determine that he was doing 97mph with no skid marks?
The video isn't very clear.
Bluepete
05-09-14, 12:13 PM
How have they managed to determine that he was doing 97mph with no skid marks?
The video isn't very clear.
If you know the frame rate of the video, you can measure between two points caught on the video. You know how many frames of video it took to get between those point and therefore how long. Simple equation gives a speed. I've used it several times in fatal RTC investigations.
Pete ;)
How have they managed to determine that he was doing 97mph with no skid marks?
The video isn't very clear.
fairly simple to do a time/distance calculation to get a relatively good approximate speed.
atassiedevil
05-09-14, 01:01 PM
Bottom line is riding agressively will get you killed. Defensively will not. Both parties were to blame, but if you act as though people have not seen you, then you'll be prepared for situations like this.
Shame someone had to lose their life to ram the point home. It made me question if i am doing anything wrong.
It's very difficult to second guess decisions made in the blink of an eye. What has happened has happened, and hopefully enough people will learn from it to make a difference.
I just wouldn't trust a car to see me in that situation,
Never attribute anyone with the same skill set as You Have.That way your never be disapointed
his excess speed didn't give him much time to react to it.
Yes thats true
Watched it a few times and I am pretty sure even if the rider was doing 60-70 the result would have been the same, the car driver just wasn't paying attention and moved at such a speed it made missing him impossible.
Watched it a few times and I am pretty sure even if the rider was doing 60-70 the result would have been the same, the car driver just wasn't paying attention and moved at such a speed it made missing him impossible.
I wouldn't be riding a bike if I didn't think situations like this were avoidable.
_Stretchie_
05-09-14, 01:59 PM
Bottom line is riding agressively will get you killed. Defensively will not.
I see where you're coming from but a bit of a broad statement if you ask me.
Amended for you
Bottom line is riding agressively will drastically increase the chances of getting you killed. Defensively will drastically reduce the chances
;)
Even with the greatest levels of observation, planning, training and skill you cannot say it won't happen.
All you can do is mitigate the risks as best as possible and not put yourself in a situation to greatly reduce the risk of anything like that happening.
As with the post quoted I am talking about riding/driving in general not this particular incident.
And again blame aside, a massive well done and thank you to the family for agreeing to publish this to help raise awareness on both side of the coin
I wouldn't be riding a bike if I didn't think situations like this were avoidable.
Same hear.I try and reduce my risk in relation to other road users.
But I'm aware Its not a posible to make it 100% safe. Being honest,this is part of its appeal especially when cornering .
Specialone
05-09-14, 02:26 PM
Watched it a few times and I am pretty sure even if the rider was doing 60-70 the result would have been the same, the car driver just wasn't paying attention and moved at such a speed it made missing him impossible.
You truly believe the rider couldn't have reasonably expected that car to pull across his path considering a long straight road on a clear day? At 60 mph he could gone round it's off side because he would've had more time to react.
I've said this numerous times but I'd rather be wrong and alive than right and dead.
Spank86
05-09-14, 02:48 PM
If you know the frame rate of the video, you can measure between two points caught on the video. You know how many frames of video it took to get between those point and therefore how long. Simple equation gives a speed. I've used it several times in fatal RTC investigations.
Pete ;)
Or you could look at the position of the dial and compare it to the speedo on the same model of bike?
Wideboy
05-09-14, 04:39 PM
some of the comments you read on various FB pages show up how dangerous social media can be and at how the stupid have totally missed the point of the video being released
i haven't seen the vid but i suspect its of a bikers last moments before contacting a car. are the family/police hoping that this vid will make people realise that motorcycles are dangerous? well i have some rather sad news... they are dangerous we all know that we all take risks. publishing a vid showing the consequences of a crash is not going to deter people from riding their bike and ride exactly how they do. all this vid is for is to say to the general public 'see what happens when you speed'... ermm no sh!t sherlock.
i'm personally getting fed up to the back teeth of the media and powers that be condemning motorcycling as bad and putting everything in the potential new riders path to put them off and get them in a cage. if they want safer roads then there should be a tougher test not just for bikes but across the board. the amount of new riders/drivers that i have seen who are incompetent on the road is shocking, the media then blame everything but the actual process that is applied to the driver/rider gaining their licence. any fool can pass their car/bike test but can they actually drive/ride a vehicle properly once done. it's about time they taught people to drive/ride rather than pass a test.
rant over now go back to what you were doing.
Wideboy
05-09-14, 04:45 PM
ever watched barely legal drivers bib? its very eye opening.
btw that's not a porno
rickylp
05-09-14, 05:13 PM
It's all very sad but to be brutally honest his decision making was very poor,riding at that speed approaching a junction was frankly stupid. Agreed the car shouldn't have just pulled across his path but as already said, treat every car like they haven't seen you!
kaivalagi
05-09-14, 06:08 PM
Well if nothing else if the video exposure might encourage car drivers to think twice before crossing a motorcycles path and save a few more bikers.
I'm done with the who is at fault and what could have been done discussion, it's bloody everywhere, we all know what should be done and make our choices based on this versus our riding enjoyment...for this scenario, be careful near junctions...simples.
Spank86
05-09-14, 06:24 PM
ever watched barely legal drivers bib? its very eye opening.
btw that's not a porno
Do they have a spin off called "barely legal riders"?
i haven't seen the vid but i suspect its of a bikers last moments before contacting a car. are the family/police hoping that this vid will make people realise that motorcycles are dangerous? well i have some rather sad news... they are dangerous we all know that we all take risks. publishing a vid showing the consequences of a crash is not going to deter people from riding their bike and ride exactly how they do. all this vid is for is to say to the general public 'see what happens when you speed'... ermm no sh!t sherlock.
i'm personally getting fed up to the back teeth of the media and powers that be condemning motorcycling as bad and putting everything in the potential new riders path to put them off and get them in a cage. if they want safer roads then there should be a tougher test not just for bikes but across the board. the amount of new riders/drivers that i have seen who are incompetent on the road is shocking, the media then blame everything but the actual process that is applied to the driver/rider gaining their licence. any fool can pass their car/bike test but can they actually drive/ride a vehicle properly once done. it's about time they taught people to drive/ride rather than pass a test.
rant over now go back to what you were doing.
Don't question your points, but I have watched the vid and it is not aimed as anti bike or speed. It's more pro don't be a d ckhead.
The mother says she wouldn't have taken the joy of biking away from him. What she does say is that car drivers need to be more aware and take the time to stop and look around especially at junctions etc.
You truly believe the rider couldn't have reasonably expected that car to pull across his path considering a long straight road on a clear day? At 60 mph he could gone round it's off side because he would've had more time to react.
I've said this numerous times but I'd rather be wrong and alive than right and dead.
From the video. Which tbf is pretty hard to judge speeds and distance it looks like the car just turns without looking. If he was doing 60 he'd probably have had a chance to scrub some speed off, but he would have had to had lighting reactions and lots of skill to avoid the car.
From the video. Which tbf is pretty hard to judge speeds and distance it looks like the car just turns without looking. If he was doing 60 he'd probably have had a chance to scrub some speed off, but he would have had to had lighting reactions and lots of skill to avoid the car.
By knowing the speed he was doing you know the distance travelled on a metre per second basis (4.5 m/s per 10mph). Even on the video you can clearly see the vehicle manoeuvre into the centre of the road (3-4 seconds prior to impact). Less than half a second before impact does his speed drop & his hand open to grab the front brake. Poor observation & planning caused the incident-on both drivers accounts.
From the video. Which tbf is pretty hard to judge speeds and distance it looks like the car just turns without looking. If he was doing 60 he'd probably have had a chance to scrub some speed off, but he would have had to had lighting reactions and lots of skill to avoid the car.
Thing is. If you watch it he has the control to alter his position.
He moves to the near side. But target fixation is something that is inbuilt.
If he had been going 40 mph less he may have been able to get round to right.
But it's not a easy thing to train your brain to do.
Of course if the car had actually seen him and waited he would also been fine
Spank86
05-09-14, 09:35 PM
The way I look at it the car driver made a mistake with tragic consequences, but the biker was riding on the assumption that no cars drivers would make mistakes... That's not a gamble that pays off for long.
Lessons to be learnt on both sides.
And hats off to the family for allowing that message to come across
Phoenix22
05-09-14, 10:04 PM
Always very sad to see this kind of thing but he was riding like a knob. Yes we all like to speed a bit but in the right place but this wasn't it in his case. Target fixation? If just a moment before the impact he had turned right a little could have avoided it completely and still be alive today. Young rider with inexperience out to play on a bike with more capability than he had....
Cruel but true.
Just re-watch the last few seconds of that clip & imagine what you would do if you were stupid enough to be in that situation? I would just turn right a bit & avoid the tosser in the car altogether.
MisterTommyH
05-09-14, 10:27 PM
Always very sad to see this kind of thing but he was riding like a knob. Yes we all like to speed a bit but in the right place but this wasn't it in his case. Target fixation? If just a moment before the impact he had turned right a little could have avoided it completely and still be alive today. Young rider with inexperience out to play on a bike with more capability than he had....
Cruel but true.
The capability thing I'd argue is more about not putting yourself in that situation..... As for young and inexperienced, maybe we have a different yardstick as the guy was 38 and had been riding bikes for 22 years.
Two lessons I take from this and recent experience.
1 - The faster you are going the less time you have to react to something like this irrespective of your skill or capability. Maybe a bit of foresight.
2 - You have to assume that car drivers aren't going to see you and allow for the worst that you think they can do. A driver pulled across my path last night (Edit: into my path travelling in the same direction) when I was doing 30 - 3-4 clear car lengths behind two cars (going the same speed). All they saw (if they saw me at all) was a push bike and assumed the speed would be slow - had the shock of their life when the looked out their offside window and saw me there because thats where I'd had to go because they hadn't expected me. In that situation I don't believe I'd done anything wrong but still ended up in that position and was lucky to avoid. It's not all about the riders skill.
Just re-watch the last few seconds of that clip & imagine what you would do if you were stupid enough to be in that situation? I would just turn right a bit & avoid the tosser in the car altogether.
I'm not so sure, I had cause to read a fatal accident inquiry a while ago where a police driver in an unmarked car had a car pull in front of him like this. If he'd gone the other way he would have avoided it but there was expert evidence that what he did was the natural reaction to move away from the danger. Police driver training and many years experience weren't enough to overcome that reaction.
TBH I don't think the point of this vid is to apportion blame to this particular incident - that's already been settled. It's unfortunate that the biker was doing the speed he was because I reckon a lot of people will just latch on to that and discard the lesson that might be learned.
The idea is surely to remind us that fairly minor mistakes, when coupled with bad luck and timing, can end very badly.
Car drivers need to Think Bike and bikers need to Think Car. Treat driving/riding with the respect it deserves.
kaivalagi
05-09-14, 10:43 PM
Here here, well said!
Phoenix22
05-09-14, 10:46 PM
It's very much about rider skill. No matter if the driver of the car was at fault or not he just rode straight into it despite a very clear escape route to the right of it,.
I can't quite understand what this woman is saying or hoping to achieve by releasing this footage.
Spank86
05-09-14, 10:47 PM
you could go left and the driver could keep on, like he did... you could go right and the driver could see you and slam the brakes.
Either one could result in you hitting the car. Eagle eye hindsight is all very well but you seldom know the result before hand. I've been round someone on the wrong side of the road before because I went right and they hit the brakes just over the white line so I kept going right all the way to the edge of the road. It worked out, but it could just as easily have not.
kaivalagi
05-09-14, 10:55 PM
I can't quite understand what this woman is saying or hoping to achieve by releasing this footage.
She probably hopes that the rest of us don't go through that nightmare, whether we be car drivers causing an accident and having to live with the results or if we are bikers putting ourselves at risk.
The only thing to come from this is that car drivers don't always see you and that it's best to plan for the worst, which in that scenario means don't be an idiot near junctions with traffic.
There is absolutely no point playing out what could have been with this accident, just think on about what is the right thing to do in a higher risk scenario like it.
Phoenix22
05-09-14, 11:08 PM
Whichever way, get this woman off national TV . Her son rode like a **** and crashed because he was going to fast for the prevailing conditions without looking where the fook he was going. Did she mention that? No: I didn't see that either.
It's possibly tough, having just buried your child, to be overly critical of them.
Phoenix22
06-09-14, 12:22 AM
So you saying that kind of riding is OK as long as greaving parent?
Fortunately none of my kids ride motorcycles, but if they did i would do my utmost to try & train them to avoid situations like this.
I survived the manic 2 stroke mayhem of the 80's & statistically i shouldn't be still alive today. I managed to scrape through tho somehow over the years by not riding straight into every car that happened to turn into my path!!!!!!!!
MisterTommyH
06-09-14, 12:25 AM
I think the point is a bit of compassion for the woman who's just lost her child doesn't cost any of us anything.
She obviously felt that publishing the video would be worth it if it stopped one biker riding like that, or one car crossing a filter without looking.
She wasn't the one riding... ease up on her.
kaivalagi
06-09-14, 12:28 AM
She's grieving for a loss, and she's not likely to critique his riding now is she, but I would imagine she knows it wasn't good thanks to him being dead now. He f'ed up paid the ultimate price...something we can all take heed of I think!
No I'm not saying it was OK. I'm also not saying it was wrong. I'm passing no judgement on it. Because it really doesn't matter.
I'm also not passing any judgement on his mother but I can understand her motivation for doing this.
I'm also able to take something positive from it even though I think I slow down for junctions like that (apart from when maybe I don't but I probably should).
Even if you think he was riding like a ****, so what? Maybe someone will watch that and think "Oh man, I always ride like a **** too, I'd better reign that **** in" or maybe a car driver will think "I'm gonna stop shuffling my ipod when turning right".
Is there no chance this might help someone? If you think he was a tosser and now he's dead, is that not a useful road safety message - even if it's only for other tossers?
i would do my utmost to try & train them to avoid situations like this.
Which is surely the purpose of this video.
Yes we can say if he had been doing 60 mph then for every second he would have traveled 17 meters less and got away with it.
But we are all grown ups and know that allot of people don't stick to the posted.
So the car driver is still a big contribute to the collision.
Imagine if it had been a police car /ambulance.
Specialone
06-09-14, 07:10 AM
Instinct, luck or lack of it, timing all affect a rtc, remember this one?
http://youtu.be/Jdq46lIVm4M
Also read this...
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/
muzikill
06-09-14, 07:23 AM
The rider, if they had been going slower,might have had a escape route to the right. Maybe it might not have been thought of in a split second at a lower speed though. Moving across a junction to the right into what would be perceived as unknown oncoming traffic would have been the thought to go against and his brain would be thinking it was more dangerous to go that way than stick to his 'safe' side.
The question to ask yourself is, watching all of his actions leading up to the accident, did you see it coming? or do you think "been there done that" as part of a normal riding day?
I hate those junctions btw because of a fear of the very thing happening in that video. Ive been in a cage at a junction like that waiting for a break in the oncoming traffic so you can scoot across to the right. And ive seen too many near misses bourne out of rushed decisions not to know to slow down when coming up to junctions like it. Im talking from a car drivers view as much as a bikers.
Rip.
ManMango
06-09-14, 09:55 AM
I am a new rider and I won't forget this video for a long time. I am still 'riding by the book' so to speak and I do slow down for such junctions like this but I also speed where I feel it is safe to do so (safer than driving 70 in someone's blind spot for example)
Before reading these forum replies I would also have gone left to avoid the collision but due to the memory of this video and all these posts if this ever happened to me I will remember to go right.
This Video could save my life and many other riders just like myself. I don't think it will help experienced riders much as they already know the dangers, they have already had their own near misses, they have already had these forum discussions before and/or real life discussions over incidents. You may also have already lost someone in an incident but not me.
I am still nieive in this respect but more and more my eyes open, it doesn't scare me away from riding or make me think again about riding with my Son in 12 years (when he is 16) but it certainly does make me 'THINK CAR'
RIP and thank you
Left /Right
50 /50 your going to get it right.
Best practice emergency stops
See the situation around you and act appropriately. This applies if you are in the car. Move you head and look at things. Not a cursory glance.
Spank86
06-09-14, 01:37 PM
Left /Right
50 /50 your going to get it right.
This.
Your best bet first off is to be covering the brake on the way up to junctions and to hit it as hard as is safe to slow you down and buy you time. THEN work out which way you're going since the driver may see you late and hit the brakes.
I know that road and junction because I used it every weekend for 4 months last year. We know that the driver didn’t see the biker but I also know that at that time of day, and with the road orientated the way it is, it is hard to see cars coming, let alone bikes and let alone bikes riding that fast. Also, that turning leads to a small village and the junction is not much used, so if the rider knew the road, he wouldn’t have expected a car to turn into it.
Because the turning goes back on itself by about 160 degrees and is blind it could explain why the car was moving slowly. Presumably the driver was looking to negotiate the turning safely instead of looking for oncoming vehicles.
I was thinking about the left/right thing. If he went right he may have gotten away with it but thats just hindsight. As others have said, this isn't a video I will be forgetting for a while.
Quiff Wichard
07-09-14, 09:42 PM
It's a hard video to watch
Even harder one to forget
But .... It did make me more aware on yesterday's ride out ... as does the pic of Hovis (RIP) I have in my shed over my bike ...
Ride safe all ...
Phoenix22
07-09-14, 10:35 PM
I have watched the closing stages of david's video countless times now and can only conclude that if he were alive today then he would probably be the one facing charges of reckless driving based on the evidence provided by himself. His mother herself requested that this video be released to warn us all about the 'danger' of speeding so by her own admittance this was a factor in his death. Had he been riding at a more suitable speed for the conditions then he could have quite easily have circumnavigated that car or even stopped in time and be alive today, instead he rode straight into it!!! Bad riding and reading the road ahead.
We all like to ride 'spiritedly' at times & make progress but this was not the time or place to do it.
ManMango
07-09-14, 10:35 PM
Update: I just had exactly the same incident as this but on my bycicle. Dominoes pizza driver just swung across my patch as if he was turning into a driveway. I tried to swerve left and use speed got his dead on the front of the car and flew over the bonnet onto the verge/pavement...
It was dark but I had two different lights on the front of my bike but still he didn't see me. I was picking up speed prob 15-20mph by then.
If only the driver had watched this video before eh?
ManMango
07-09-14, 10:37 PM
Sorry English is so off there. In a lit of pain and tired as hell but can't sleep xd I'm going to try and blag some free pizza tommorrow for sure :p
Phoenix22
07-09-14, 11:07 PM
Well: maybe you should have just looked where you were going , turned right and around the back and avoided collision altogether eh?
Biker Biggles
08-09-14, 07:44 AM
Well: maybe you should have just looked where you were going , turned right and around the back and avoided collision altogether eh?
Are you deliberately playing the trolling knob in this thread or is this just normal for you?
Spank86
08-09-14, 08:00 AM
I assumed that post was sarcasm?
Biker Biggles
08-09-14, 08:21 AM
I assumed that post was sarcasm?
Reading the whole thread Im not sure it was meant to be humour,which Im all in favour of generally.Not on this subject though.
ManMango
08-09-14, 08:32 AM
Hehe I would have turned right but it was dark and all I could see where headlights coming at me so went left to swerve onto the driveway and then onto the path. If I went right there could have been another set of headlights waiting for me :p
shiftin_gear98
08-09-14, 09:18 AM
That video is fairly sobering, I'm glad I got to see it, so I'm thankfully it was shared.
Might just help someone out one day. RIP fella, even if you did ride a little too fast.
I too would have gone right, but at that speed, **** only knows what would have happened.
Might bimble home tonight though.
I reckon just about everybody would have done exactly what this guy did and end up hitting the car.
I guess so. At that speed you wouldn't have much time to do anything about it.
Specialone
08-09-14, 11:28 AM
I reckon just about everybody would have done exactly what this guy did and end up hitting the car.
Actually I'm not sure about that, some people have better or braver survival techniques, I'm pretty sure I would of swerved and/or braked extremely hard, I certainly would've rolled off and be expecting that car to pull across my path, that said, I went out on Saturday and i was stupidly paranoid on similar junctions due to this film.
Actually I'm not sure about that, some people have better or braver survival techniques, I'm pretty sure I would of swerved and/or braked extremely hard, I certainly would've rolled off and be expecting that car to pull across my path, that said, I went out on Saturday and i was stupidly paranoid on similar junctions due to this film.
Yeah, I meant given the same scenario. He clearly didnt expect anything to cross his path, but as for deciding to go left or right or any other acrobatic trick we would have all done exactly the same and hit it.
The Most Import thing is we lean from others mistakes and avoid the situation.
ie In a car recognize its difficult to see thin things like motorcycles.
On a motorcycle take a bit of caution at junctions and place your self in a situation to reduce the risks.
either by reducing your speed ,road position,Sound your horn etc.
Its going to change in any given situation. whats appropriate for that situation. And adapt it as the situation is just as likely to change.
If a Junction is dangerous, pressurize the council to fix it!
No one answer fits all unfortunately
Fordward
08-09-14, 02:51 PM
Before reading these forum replies I would also have gone left to avoid the collision but due to the memory of this video and all these posts if this ever happened to me I will remember to go right.
Don't write yourself any rules. Every situation is different and you have to assess it as you approach it and plan your escape route - in advance.
"OK, there's a car signalling or waiting to turn across my path, if he hasn't seen me and he does turn in front of me, where am I going to go?"
There's a lot of talk on here about whether he would have been able to make a decision and react at 60mph. Don't react when the car starts to turn, understand that he might turn and think about it in advance. That way when the car does it, you don't waste time wondering which way to go do whilst soiling your trousers, you just brake and steer.
In this case right was the best way to go, but if there has been another car behind that one also entering the filter lane, you wouldn't be able to swerve right into the filter lane, because you'd seriously be at risk of having a head on with the second car.
Sometimes you enter dangerous situations where there is no viable escape route, for instance the road might be too narrow, in that case think in advance, where is the softest place to crash.
Assess each dangerous situation as it develops in front of you, and plan the escape route that's appropriate to that situation.
Of course you need to be at an appropriate speed for the situation, so that you give yourself time to plan, and to execute the plan.
ok i just watched the clip. luck of the draw. silly speeds in a silly area. i will say one thing now that i have had a chance to see the footage and that there was nothing he could have done to avoid the collision. at the speed he was doing you could not manoeuvre a bike quick enough and still be in control to avoid collision even trying to go right or left the bike would not make the manoeuvre or even if it did then he would have lost control and hit something else. i personally would not have expected the car to turn in front of me and looking at the footage by the time it was turning and the rate of speed i'm afraid to say i would have been brown bread as well, saying that i would not have been doing those speeds approaching a junction anyway.
two wrongs ended in a fatal accident, shizz happens. is it going to make me think twice about how i'm riding? no! coz i dont ride like a complete knob and know when to slow down. yes everyone that knows me knows i ride fast buy only when i know i can.
Fordward
08-09-14, 04:16 PM
Lets pretend the car he overtook wasn't there, and it was just open road in front, I'd have come back to 60-70mph as soon as I saw the warning triangle for the junction. As soon as I saw the car indicating right (which he did before entering the filter lane) then I'd have backed off to about 50.
Obviously had he been doing those speeds, it would have been a different situation as he wouldn't have overtaken the car.
Before junctions isn't the place to be overtaking anyway.
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 05:21 PM
'Target fixation' that's why he hit it. If he had concentration to the right of the car, knowing that was a 'safe' escape route then even at the stupid speed he was going in the situation there is a big chance he would avoided the collision altogether.
'Target fixation' that's why he hit it. If he had concentration to the right of the car, knowing that was a 'safe' escape route then even at the stupid speed he was going in the situation there is a big chance he would avoided the collision altogether.
nah, not a chance at that speed. If he had been anticipating the car crossing his path he would have slowed well in advance. He never knew that was coming until way too late.
Specialone
08-09-14, 05:29 PM
Let's face it, speed aside, he didn't look far enough ahead, or expect the unexpected (kind of)
its a bad junction that i suspect people turning right into the line of traffic have to wait a fair amount if there is traffic so the car driver took a chance so not to have to wait.
if there ever was a need for a speed camera then that junction would be it or failing that at least a set of traffic lights or even a roundabout.
kaivalagi
08-09-14, 05:48 PM
The junction is so rarely used, I think a speed camera would be the only reasonable change in this case....but to be fair there are a LOT of junctions like this off the A47, with no cameras nearby, so the only realistic solution is for motorcyclists to use sensible speeds near junctions
This video has certainly left it's mark on me, especially knowing that bit of road for myself, hopefully it will stick and make me overly cautious near junctions going forwards
SvNewbie
08-09-14, 05:52 PM
I noticed around the Peak district that a lot of the speed cameras are clearly being used to protect a junction. Like most people I'm not a big fan of cameras but I did think that was an appropriate use.
Fordward
08-09-14, 05:53 PM
He never knew that was coming until way too late.
He'd been riding for 22 years, I wonder whether he knew the car was there, and knew what danger he was in, but decided to take the risk. Took a gamble on whether the car driver had seen him or not.
Spank86
08-09-14, 06:00 PM
'Target fixation' that's why he hit it. If he had concentration to the right of the car, knowing that was a 'safe' escape route then even at the stupid speed he was going in the situation there is a big chance he would avoided the collision altogether.
And if the car had hit the brakes when only partially across into his lane he would have hit it.
SvNewbie
08-09-14, 06:06 PM
Just remembered this video and had to bring it into the conversation.
h09RLk_7aGU
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 06:25 PM
And if the car had hit the brakes when only partially across into his lane he would have hit it.
No he wouldn't, the oncoming traffic was far enough away to be able to make a pass on the wrong side of the road. Not ideal but better than just riding straight into it. After passing the Aygo he continued on the throttle until pretty much at the point of impact which by this time was obviously too late. I don't want to speak ill of the dead but it was bad riding, pure & simple.
DarrenSV650S
08-09-14, 06:27 PM
Ignoring the fact that he should have slowed down for the junction, there are less than 2 seconds between the car looking as if it is waiting in the turning area, to the car coming across his lane. Who could possibly react, then manoeuvre in that amount of time?
i'll stick my hand up and say given the exact same situation i would be brown bread.
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 06:42 PM
Ignore the fact that he should have slowed? Why? it was a major contribution. In fact not only did he not slow, he accelerated towards it. Utter madness.
DarrenSV650S
08-09-14, 06:42 PM
Shut up phoenix you bell end
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 06:47 PM
So you rekon his riding was ok then?
JamesMio
08-09-14, 06:50 PM
Ok, enough now. You've had your say, we get it.
nowt wrong with his riding he was just riding wrong in the wrong place for it and doing so paid the consequence.
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 06:55 PM
Nothing wrong but he was riding wrong?
And don't call me a bell end you knob. There was a healthy debate going on here and to start personal insults because you don't agree with what I am saying is out of order. You don't know me so back off from that keyboard & shut the **** up.
JamesMio
08-09-14, 07:02 PM
Ah, I'd forgotten about the 'Ignore' function. That's much better.
same could be said for you Phoenix.
i never knew the bloke so i cant say how good a rider he was but looking at the vid he seemed a fairly confident rider. he was jut riding at the wrong speed for the given situation, nothing wrong with his riding ability from what i could see.
DarrenSV650S
08-09-14, 07:07 PM
Go back and read my first post again. Then read your reply. Also go back and read all your other posts in this thread. Then you will see why I called you that and why everyone is getting tired of your unending need to be called Mr Right
Phoenix22
08-09-14, 07:36 PM
I ride one of those FJ's for a living and cover approx 30K per year on it. My own bike of choice is a 1200 Kawasaki on which i do an additional 12K. I really don't give a flying fig if you agree with me or not but I suspect I may be a little more qualified than most on here regards my opinion. The SV is just my partner's bike and i just joined hoping to pick up a few tips here & there, not become embroiled in an on line tit for tat about the merits or otherwise of somebody elses subjective riding skills.
I don't know how many of you are familiar with the infamous Cat & fiddle but there is a poster in there that simply reads...........'Ride like a knob & die'.........nuff said.
MisterTommyH
08-09-14, 07:49 PM
Phoenix, If you re-read the thread you'll see that there is only one person consistently becoming embroiled in a tit for tat. :thumbdown:
Fordward
08-09-14, 07:49 PM
:smt011
I've just been reminded why I don't use this forum anymore. This was quite a sensible conversation on what could be an emotive subject (a right of way violation killing a biker), and I was beginning to think the forum had grown up a bit.
Spank86
08-09-14, 08:55 PM
No he wouldn't, the oncoming traffic was far enough away to be able to make a pass on the wrong side of the road. Not ideal but better than just riding straight into it. After passing the Aygo he continued on the throttle until pretty much at the point of impact which by this time was obviously too late. I don't want to speak ill of the dead but it was bad riding, pure & simple.
Given that he was already to the left hand side of his lane and still hit the car trying to go further left there was no way he would have been able to go even further right than that before reaching the same point. So had he mirrored exactly what he did by moving to the right and the oncoming car had braked covering both the start of his lane and part of the slip lane he would have hit it.
If he'd had the ability to move further over he could have done that to the left, passed the car and dealt with the new situation afterwards.
Ignore the fact that he should have slowed? Why? it was a major contribution. In fact not only did he not slow, he accelerated towards it. Utter madness.
Because he didn't slow.
If he'd hammered the brakes there would have been an entirely different situation but it has nothing to do with whether going right or left would have been better without foreknowledge of what the oncoming car would do.
fizzwheel
08-09-14, 09:08 PM
Knock it off with the personal insults please guys.
Red Herring
08-09-14, 09:39 PM
I find it intriguing that when a member of this forum is involved in a collision and dies then nobody is prepared to talk about it, yet if it is an unknown person then we are quite prepared to pick the incident apart, offer views and apportion blame.
Having spent the last 30 years sorting out others misfortune I can certainly say that understanding how others have made or been victim to a mistake definitely helps you avoid a similar fate, so sad as it is I can certainly understand why this riders family wanted others to see the video and think about the incident.
As I think I said on another thread this evening stop trying to sort out the blame folks, just discuss what you think about the video sensibly, respect each others views and concentrate on understanding why things happened to try and make sure it doesn't happen to you.
Spank86
08-09-14, 09:46 PM
I find it intriguing that when a member of this forum is involved in a collision and dies then nobody is prepared to talk about it, yet if it is an unknown person then we are quite prepared to pick the incident apart, offer views and apportion blame.
If it was someone I knew personally like fallout or thunder ace I'd happily go on record if I thought they were riding like a **** and I'd expect them to do the same if it were me.
If it was one of the other forum members, well even I have a little more sensitivity than that, when it's personal you try not to offend too much but equally when it's someone nobody appears to know I don't think it's the wrong thing to discuss it frankly. It doesn't help anyone to pretend he did everything right and I can't believe that's what the family were looking for when they released the video.
kaivalagi
08-09-14, 09:52 PM
Well said
For me when Reeder hasd his fatal accident some of us went to the corner where it happened some time after and went over what might have happened...the result was to acknowledge the real need to control speed into a corner based on what you can see.
This video points out the need to reduce risk around junctions by lowering speed and allowing for reaction time and an exit if another vehicle fails to see you and moves into your path.
Both valuable lessons and probably the most important areas of consideration when riding, atleast to me.
Like you say, there's no need to analysis and apportion blame for any of this, just take it in and make sense of it to help make for a safer ride.
Red Herring
08-09-14, 09:54 PM
I don't think I said I thought it wrong that we are discussing the incident, on the contrary I am trying to actively encourage that discussion on a constructive basis.
I don't think it's any less disrespectful or insensitive just because we don't know the individual personally. He is still a rider, he had a family, and he could just as easily have been any number of people on here.
Red ones
08-09-14, 09:54 PM
I don't give a jam tart who is right and who's wrong in the video. Or who should take any blame. It doesn't matter if you are right and think you can argue the toss. At the end of the day you can be right, but hitting a car flipping hurts.
The whole point of the clip being released is being missed. The point of releasing it was to highlight the result not the blame. I feel sorry for the car driver who survived and is now having their accident analysed and commented on endlessly and replayed over and over. I'd guess they already find it hard to forget what happened in an instant.
Spank86
08-09-14, 09:59 PM
I don't think it's any less disrespectful or insensitive just because we don't know the individual personally. He is still a rider, he had a family, and he could just as easily have been any number of people on here.
That's the point where I disagree. I think it makes a big difference. The difference is it's not directly offending anyone to talk about it when nobody knows the person, however being that blunt directly to his family would be cruel and unnecessary.
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