Moussaoui can face death penalty

[Anonymous]

Moussaoui's defence say he is a fantasist who played no part in 9/11
The jury in the US trial of confessed al-Qaeda plotter Zacarias Moussaoui has decided he is eligible to face the death penalty when he is sentenced.
The decision means a second phase of hearings will take place to determine whether he will be executed.

Prosecutors argued Moussaoui should face execution because he lied to keep the 9/11 plot a secret. His defence said he played no part in the attacks.

Moussaoui has pleaded guilty to six counts of conspiracy to attack the US.

In order to deem him eligible for the death penalty, the jurors had to agree that Moussaoui's actions led directly to at least one death on 11 September 2001.

The sentencing trial will now enter a second phase, in which testimony will be heard from relatives of people who died in the terror attacks.

The jury must then retire for a second time to consider whether to impose the death penalty on Moussaoui.

Unanimous verdicts

Court official Edward Adams read out the jurors' verdict outside the Virginia courthouse.

In order to decide that Moussaoui was guilty of "conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries", the jury had to find unanimously that the government had established beyond reasonable doubt four facts, he said.

The first two facts were that he was over 18 at the time of the offence and that he had lied to federal agents on 16-17 August 2001, to both of which the jury responded 'yes'.

Mr Adams went on: "Number 3: the defendant participated in the act, contemplating that the life of a person would be taken, or intending that lethal force would be used in connection with a person other than one of the participants in the offence. The jury answered 'yes'.

"Number 4: at least one victim died on September 11, 2001 as a direct result of the defendant's act. The jury answered 'yes'."

The jury also decided that the charges of conspiracy to destroy aircraft and conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction had been proven beyond reasonable doubt, he said.

"By this verdict, the jury has found that death is a possible sentence in this case," Mr Adams concluded.

'Fifth plane'

The nine men and three women began their deliberations late last Wednesday, following closing arguments from both sides.

Prosecutors argued Moussaoui was eligible for the death penalty because by lying about the 9/11 plot to FBI investigators, he contributed to the deaths of nearly 3,000 people.

They cited testimony from Moussaoui during the trial in which he said he was supposed to have flown a fifth plane into the White House on 11 September.

But lead defence lawyer Edward MacMahon said the US government had failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Moussaoui had been involved in the 9/11 attacks.

He described his client, a Moroccan-born French citizen, as a fantasist and al-Qaeda "hanger-on" who was trying to write himself a role in history.

Moussaoui was arrested on 16 August 2001 on immigration charges after the instructor at the flying school he was attending in Minnesota became suspicious of his behaviour.

He told federal agents he was a tourist who wanted to learn to fly for personal enjoyment.

He is the only person to be charged in connection with the 11 September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4874178.stm

This bothers me, as if he gets executed, he'll beleive that he has still won and that he's heading to Paradise.

Surely it would be better to keep him locked up for the remainder of his days. This way he doesnt get to go to "paradise".

Discuss....

[Dicky Ticker]

Not if I get to his seven virgins before him :lol: ,or was it Virgin he was promised
The American media have him dead already methinks

[carelesschucca]

Has anyone the right to Kill a man???

[jonboy]

Interesting point. How about another question: Does anyone forfeit their right to life, for deliberately killing another?


.

[philipMac]

I suppose my thoughts are... when is execution ever nessesary?
Execution is carried out for reasons of vengence and/or revenge as far as I can see. It doesnt solve anything, or make anything right, or even better.

It will be interesting though. If the US courts say he is responsible for the crimes of sept 11 WTC attack, but is not getting killed for it, how will they justify ever using the death penalty?
Surely this crime is the worst thing you can do on North American soil.
Presumabley the information that he may contain makes it worth while. Again I think it comes back to the fact that it is not about the "nessesary" punishment, it is about the vengence.

[philipMac]

Interesting point. How about another question: Does anyone forfeit their right to life, for deliberately killing another?

What does it acheive though? What is the point of it? The fact that they are fecal matter in human form may be true, but, why kill them, unless you desire revenge.

Whether or not revenge is reasonable is another question. But, lets not get away from the low down nitty gritty of the whole situation.
For me there are two issues:
Humans make mistakes. All humans do. People have been executed for crmes they did not commit. This is true. And, its unnaceptable.

Second: What do you gain and what do you lose? What you gain is quite quantifiable, and finite. What you lose is unquatifiable.

[Peter Henry]

*This will put the cat amongst the pigeons*

Like all of you I digested the information given out by the media in the immediate aftermath of Sept 11. In the passing of time though I have read many expert reports and theories as to what actually happened and who was behind it all.

I cannot be totally sure of course but I have to say that I do strongly believe that the story fed to us by the American/Israeli administrations was to the greater extent fabrication, a smoke screen to cover up a grand illusion to not only protect each other from damaging information coming to the public domain, but to destabilise the Arab world as part of a master plan that removes the possibility of the west ever being held to ransom over that ever more vital and depleting resource...oil.

Maybe before anyone comes back and flames me,you too should carry out your own research on this matter.

Please do not forget that I too am a westerner and from a christian background, but this whole deal makes me feel very uneasy indeed. :?

[Ed]

I cannot accept that anyone has the right to take another's life under any circumstances (except self-defence) and so no I do not agree that this man should be executed.

[Jelster]

I certainly understand the reasons for not taking his life (inc the fact that it will make him yet another matyr).

However, consider this: How much will it cost to keep him alive ? Even in prison he will need to be constantly watched & monitored, and if he was responsible for those lives lost in 9/11, does he deserve to keep his ?

Or, perhaps let him go free so justice will run it's course.....


.

[amarko5]

I cannot accept that anyone has the right to take another's life under any circumstances (except self-defence) and so no I do not agree that this man should be executed.

I doubt those that lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy, would be quite so forgiving :?

but onto Jelsters point, I too believe their is a financial reason for the death penalty, wether it be right or wrong ? I cannot say.

but there has to be a finite line drawn somewhere. as society releases more and more people that re offend (and a lot of them do)? the do gooder state is ensuring it is less safe for law abiding people.

i think it's time that penalties were reviewed (made harsher is my opinion ) there needs to be a deterent for crime.

the way we are heading it will be all out anarchy in 30 or so years time :lol:

A bit of the mad max world :P :lol: dog eat dog :?

[lynw]

Second: What do you gain and what do you lose? What you gain is quite quantifiable, and finite. What you lose is unquatifiable.

You gain the fact that some of the most evil people who are also the most accomplished sociopaths NEVER get released to commit crimes again. If you dont think that would happen, read the books by John Douglas and tell me you would be happy for the Ted Bundys of the world to even be considered for parole.

All the while they are alive they have the chance to convince some do gooder in the system they are capable of reform. Some people, predominantly serial killers and paedophiles are beyond rehabilitation once theyve stepped beyond a certain mark.

Also consider the fact that its not revenge but a form of retribution. Whereby the state formally declares that its citizens lives are sacrosanct and if you take any one of them you will be subject to the retribution of the state as it prescribes.

I understand your point and dont argue it lightly. But I have read about too many serial killers and the absolutely heinous things they have done that they can never be released.

People argue about cruel punishments. In their cases, surely death is more of a release and less cruel than keeping someone in jail for their remaining natural years which could be up to sixty years? Because there are some people that just can not be rehabilitated or reformed.

[philipMac]

Second: What do you gain and what do you lose? What you gain is quite quantifiable, and finite. What you lose is unquatifiable.

...

Because there are some people that just can not be rehabilitated or reformed.

Yeah. I am in agreement with you here. For instance, it is more or less unquestionable that paedophiles are paedophiles till the day they die.
Or, that people do hideous things, and should not be let out for the rest of their lives.

These people, pyschopaths etc, are a burden. But, I dont think that this means its ok to kill them. What does killing them fix?
Life with out parole exists.

In a lot of instances, to do what they did, they are sort of by definition seriously mentally ill, no? If you have someone that commits horrific crimes, would you not want to hold onto them, watch them, look for things that give people an idea what to look for at some point in the future? Maybe people can id something through genetics, or through watching brain activity. There is no question that a large number of mentally retarded people have been killed by the govt. Studying exactly how they are retarded is valuable,

I also agree with you though, that for some of them, death is a release from whatever torment they are in. But, I dont really care. Screw them, if we want to learn from them, tough.

I think, again, you are right, its fine for the state to say human life is sacrosanct, and to punish you, we will take lots of your human rights away from you. But, not their life.
Just my opinion I suppose there.

Then there is the whole randomness of who gets killed and who doesnt. This trial might be the perfect case in point. The punishment of death is randomly given out to people, it depends on the profile of the case, who was killed, how the jury falls, the local judge, what race you are... its a game of dice.

And, nothing will ever get around the fact that people are convicted and sentenced to death incorrectly.

[philipMac]

PH,
OK, I have heard this sort of idea before. The thing is though... its sort of been proved that the US govt / US popular opinion doesnt need much persuasion to do anything at all. Definately crashing a load of planes into the shop is over kill. Especially the White House (attempt), the Pentagon, and the WTC.

There are just about a million cheaper ways to sell whatever story the US admin wants to sell the people here. And, the majority of the people seem to buy it. I have seen interviews with people, where the interviewer just made up countries, told the person they might be thinking bad things about the US, and do they think that its ok to bomb them. Within about 3 minutes you had bombers setting off for Tonga as far as they were concerned.

So, yeah, not buying it. Then they have to keep the whole thing quiet. Its not worth it PH. Seriously.

[22]

execute him, he was willing to die & kill others so give him half his wish at least, cheaper in the long run. Then take the rest & do the same.Scum.




















Waits for flak.

[Anonymous]

PH,
OK, I have heard this sort of idea before. The thing is though... its sort of been proved that the US govt / US popular opinion doesnt need much persuasion to do anything at all. Definately crashing a load of planes into the shop is over kill. Especially the White House (attempt), the Pentagon, and the WTC.

There are just about a million cheaper ways to sell whatever story the US admin wants to sell the people here. And, the majority of the people seem to buy it. I have seen interviews with people, where the interviewer just made up countries, told the person they might be thinking bad things about the US, and do they think that its ok to bomb them. Within about 3 minutes you had bombers setting off for Tonga as far as they were concerned.

So, yeah, not buying it. Then they have to keep the whole thing quiet. Its not worth it PH. Seriously.

I beleive the "conspiricy" if you like that our PH was referring to is this:

America, in particularly the Intelligence Community knew that something was coming, perhaps not particularly what it was, or quite how severe, but that something was being planned, and an attack was imminant on US Soil.

The reasons being that it would give them the "upper hand", for want of a better expression, and thus allow an entrance route into the middle east.. and destabilises the entire region, like PH said, enabling us NOT to be held ransom over the substance which is the life blood of our worlds.... Oil.

One counter argument by the "not for oil" brigade, is that it would be futile to invade Iraq for oil.. as it takes 15years to rebuild an infrastructure to such a level that oil can be sufficiently drawn out in quantities which offer a suitable return on investment.

One key thing worth considering, is that the west currently only has enough supply of oil to last, 15-20 years (approx). Do you think its coincidence that 9/11 happened when it did? Or is there a more sinister plot behind it?

Like i said at the top of this post, i dont beleive that George Bush knew the extent of the attacks which were due, nor did any of the intelligence services. But id say it was a fair bet, that they knew something was being planned, that some attack was going to happen... and that they sat back on their laruels waiting for it to happen.

[cosmiccharlie]

I've often thought about this,

As in the Death Penalty Versus Life Sentences (single or multiple)

I understand that some people might not agree with others, but I think the death penalty should only be used as a last resort, as I think keeping someone behind bars for 20-30-40 plus years should not become a burden on tax payers,

[Akula]

Yes execute him!!

[Anonymous]

Yes execute him!!

Elaborate Akula if you can? You obviously beleive strongly in your opinion, id be interested to hear as to why you say so veniably that he should be executed.

[K]

Noone has the right to do anything. At all. Not even breath.

We, as a race, have no rights, we never did, and I'm sure the day may come when we will not again.

We made them up y'see. Gave them to ourselves as justification for the choices we made and actions we took. They let us sleep better at night knowing we were 'right' and the other person was 'wrong'.

Take it back to the bare bones and it's all about capability and choice.

We are all capable of the most heinous of acts. Crimes by our own standards, but standards change. How long ago was it when you would have been talking about Homosexuals the way you talk about Paedophiles?
Go back and ask an adult male of Ancient Sparta how he feels about underage sex = standards change, capabilities don't.

So it's down to choice. Don't kid yourself about rights. It's choice, and it's only if enough people choose something that it's called right, or A Right.

If this guy gets the death sentence, it will be because the individuals of the Jury choose to see him dead because they didn't like the choices he made.

And so to go full circle and bring capability back into the mix - I wonder if they would make the same choice if they also then had to admit and release their own capability for violence. If they had to physically carry out the sentence and kill him.

Rights, law, right & wrong = whatever lets you sleep at night.



By the way, I'm not actually sure where I went with all that burbling - brain working + fingers typing = strange random posting. :?

[Akula]

The man was willing, part & party, had knowledge of an attack on a people (whether they be American or not, makes no difference) that killed thousands of people in one hit. This was an act of terrorism, this in al quaeda's words is a war. So if this is a war as Moussaoui rightly/wrongly believes why should he not be executed for his crimes?? They executed the likes in the WWI & II, so why not now? And for those bleading heart liberals & tree huggers out their that preach human rights, yes people have a right to life and so on, but when thousands of lives are taken so indiscriminantly (sp) children, women non combatants if you like why not execute him. He and others like him would know doubt be in the thick of another planning of mass murder like 9/11.

Some will probably argue that we are killing their women and children in their homeland. A subtle difference there is that the area they are unfortunately dying in is a WARZONE. It still dosent make it right, and if those that are in charge of the bombing/shooting of innocent civillians should be held accountable the same as Moussaoui. Unfortunately the problem with the Warzone is that alot of the women and children are so fanatical in their beliefs that they are A part of the war itself.

The whole thing is a clusterfeck and whether we should be in Iraq is a different matter, or is it???? The fact remains if left alive, Moussaoui could possibly help another attrocity, unless he was imprisoned in a special population group (we know who they are) that eat nowt but pork and play banjo's. :-({|=

Martin

[Peter Henry]

Akula...Have you ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?

The twin towers were constructed with a main frame of steel which was designed to withstand both hurricane and direct impact from an airliner. Therefore why when no building of this type has ever collapsed,should both the north and south towers both collapse in identical "pancake" or concertina fashion?

A cousin of Mr.Bush heads up the company in charge of security of the WTC, large sections of the buildings were cordoned off and evacuated for several hours in the weeks prior to the terrible day.


Perhaps the time was used to place strategic explosive devices that would ensure the structure of the buildings would be completely compromised?


A massive task as it would be, why was no forensic evidence gathered at all from ground zero? Traces of explosives to be detected?

Why did firemen and employees at the WTC notice a discernable "updraft" in the stair wells below the fires? The vacuum created by the detonation of explosives above them?

The WTC by it's very nature was the hub of American business and so why did just one Israeli person die at the WTC on that day? Normally there would be hundreds there?

None of the above is perhaps definitive or maybe to be believed but do you feel confidant that,(given who controls most forms of media round the world) the tales we have been told regarding Al Qaeda involvement?

All done with the aid of mirrors and if you wish a few more snippets to mull over,I can provide.


*BTW* None of the above seeks to deny that certain Islamic factions are a true and genuine threat to the security of many of us.*

[Akula]

PH,

I love conspiracy theories, they always add that certain something to disasters or huge world changing incidents. Please do send some 'snippets' i do like reading them. But like alot of conspiracy theories we 'may' never know the real truth. But considering this chap and the death penalty i stand by my decision.

Martin

[Anonymous]

Akula...Have you ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?

The twin towers were constructed with a main frame of steel which was designed to withstand both hurricane and direct impact from an airliner. Therefore why when no building of this type has ever collapsed,should both the north and south towers both collapse in identical "pancake" or concertina fashion?

A cousin of Mr.Bush heads up the company in charge of security of the WTC, large sections of the buildings were cordoned off and evacuated for several hours in the weeks prior to the terrible day.


Perhaps the time was used to place strategic explosive devices that would ensure the structure of the buildings would be completely compromised?


A massive task as it would be, why was no forensic evidence gathered at all from ground zero? Traces of explosives to be detected?

Why did firemen and employees at the WTC notice a discernable "updraft" in the stair wells below the fires? The vacuum created by the detonation of explosives above them?

The WTC by it's very nature was the hub of American business and so why did just one Israeli person die at the WTC on that day? Normally there would be hundreds there?

None of the above is perhaps definitive or maybe to be believed but do you feel confidant that,(given who controls most forms of media round the world) the tales we have been told regarding Al Qaeda involvement?

All done with the aid of mirrors and if you wish a few more snippets to mull over,I can provide.


*BTW* None of the above seeks to deny that certain Islamic factions are a true and genuine threat to the security of many of us.*

Oh God Peter - you've been watching Loose change - dont tell me you bought into it?

The buildings DID collapse as a result of the impact, and subsequent fires.

Yes they were designed to withstand impacts from hurricanes and aircraft - however, factor in the initial impact of the airliners, which caused massive reduction in structural integrity, followed by the explosion which again reduced the structuoral strength.. followed by a fire, which would have gone some way in weaking the tensile strength of the fire... thats why they collapsed.

The Loose Change consipiricy is clutching at straws.

[Peter Henry]

Joe "Loose Change" is not something I am familiar with? I am based in Spain remember?
The only UK television I watch occasionally is Sky Sports. Additionally the Spanish media have not to my knowledge run any conspiracy or analysis type programmes either. :wink:

More from me in a while. :P

[Anonymous]

Joe "Loose Change" is not something I am familiar with? I am based in Spain remember?
The only UK television I watch occasionally is Sky Sports. Additionally the Spanish media have not to my knowledge run any conspiracy or analysis type programmes either. :wink:

More from me in a while. :P

Ah ok... :lol:

Loose Change is this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=Loose+Change&pl=true

A very interesting yet somewhat clutching at straw attempt to turn the whole thing around on the US Government. Very similar to what you are proposing above. :wink:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I don't belive the state should ever be permited to weild the power of life or death over anyone, even convicted criminals.

Financial reasons for exicuting people are uttery ridiculous - there's far more at stake than money in this regard.

As for the indervidual in question in this thread - he'll never be let out of prision, his lifes over anyway. Why kill him? It'll just make him a maytr.

[Anonymous]

^ exactly my point Flame... 8)

[Jelster]

Peter Henry, for an educated man, and a person that I though had some "savvy" you don't half come up with some complete b*locks ! :shock:

Are you trying to say that the American Government actually knew about 9/11 before hand, and as such, planted explosives in the building to make it worse ????

You'll be telling us all that Bush is an alien from another planet next... (err actually that could be true :lol: )

The only thing that sets us apart from barbarians is a justice system that is place through democracy. A court of law has found this man guilty. In the Country he was tried, the penalty for mass murder & terrorism is death. He knew what he was getting into, he made his bed, now he has to face the concequences. End of story.

.............

[jonboy]

Yes execute him!!

You know, I could have won money on you making that post.

Noone has the right to do anything. At all. Not even breath.

At last someone who truly understands the reality of life; rights are a made-up political device and form no part of nature. Everything we have is a gift and nothing more than good luck brought it to us.


.

[Akula]

Yes execute him!!

You know, I could have won money on you making that post.
Noone has the right to do anything. At all. Not even breath.

At last someone who truly understands the reality of life; rights are a made-up political device and form no part of nature. Everything we have is a gift and nothing more than good luck brought it to us.


.


And your point being what????

[jonboy]

And your point being what????

:-dd


.

[Peter Henry]

Steve,

You surprise me at how quick you are to judge me. Purely because I am willing to voice an alternative scenario than that which you and thousands...no millions of others have bought in to. I count myself among that number until recently and as previously mentioned this concerns me.

I am concerned that I am not fully convinced that I have not been duped by powers with means at their disposal that could carry out any outrageous act and have their own reasons for justifying that. This could be far different to any reasoning or explanation that actually reaches the public domain.

Quote:

"No fire has ever caused the complete collapse of high rise office buildings in the history of the industrialized world.

The second article goes on to state: "Make no mistake about it: This high-rise collapse was no 'fluke.'

[sharriso74]

There was a good documentary on the Discovery channel about the collapse. The engineers blamed the thickness of the heat resistant material (can't remember correct name) over the metal work and the fact the impact damaged it. So as a result the metal warped and weakened and the core become weak.

I'm not discounting the other theorys but after watching this programme I'm more inclined to go with the mainstay opinion.

All to often when a terrible disaster happend WTC, JFK etc people will look for a conspiracy to try and justify such an outrage

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Steve,

You surprise me at how quick you are to judge me. Purely because I am willing to voice an alternative scenario than that which you and thousands...no millions of others have bought in to. I count myself among that number until recently and as previously mentioned this concerns me.

I am concerned that I am not fully convinced that I have not been duped by powers with means at their disposal that could carry out any outrageous act and have their own reasons for justifying that. This could be far different to any reasoning or explanation that actually reaches the public domain.

Quote:

"No fire has ever caused the complete collapse of high rise office buildings in the history of the industrialized world.

The second article goes on to state: "Make no mistake about it: This high-rise collapse was no 'fluke.'

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

[stewboy]

yes he should but very very slowley .... with each limb being pulled off :!:

[Peter Henry]

Jordan...As previously mentioned,the towers had been designed to withstand such circumstances,(impact plus heat generated by the calorific value of aviation fuel) Are you actually sure that the suggested Boeing airliners where exactly that at all?

And why did the steel girders not buckle and bow as one would normally expect then as they weakened due to the heat...if your thinking is correct? It just does not figure.

How then that no fragments that could have been identified as being from such a plane where found anyway in or around the site?

A similar plane apparently hit the pentagon also? Have you seen the size of the impact on the facade of the Pentagon? More consistant with a Piper Cherokee to my mind! And where is the almost football pitch wide damage on the ground caused by said plane before it impacted?

Why is there an argumnet that suggests that the facade was damaged by explosives that actually blew "out" a section of wall and not the damage that would have been caused by a very large commercial airliner crashing in to it?

[wolverine04uk]

*Occasional poster wades into furor without flak jacket and chin held high* :lol:

What occures to me is the following. This fella afaik isn't accused of actively helping the plotters, but withholding information about them. So by act of ommision he is guilty of the deaths of the innocent. In other words, he didn't "do" anything, he allowed to happen. Is it just me that thinks this could be a disturbing precedent if he is killed? After all, it seems the government knew more than he did, and yet they did nothing and allowed it to happen. In all fairness then, shouldn't someone on the governments side be put on trial with possibility of execution for allowing it to happen? Do you see where Im going?
It definitely smells of distraction and propoganda to me.

*ducks out of way of flying bullets*

[sharriso74]

Killing him would just make him a martyr in the eyes of those who share his beliefs. Lock him up chuck the key away then see if he gets his virgins in heaven after Bubba has had his way with him in the showers

[Anonymous]

*Occasional poster wades into furor without flak jacket and chin held high* :lol:

What occures to me is the following. This fella afaik isn't accused of actively helping the plotters, but withholding information about them. So by act of ommision he is guilty of the deaths of the innocent. In other words, he didn't "do" anything, he allowed to happen. Is it just me that thinks this could be a disturbing precedent if he is killed? After all, it seems the government knew more than he did, and yet they did nothing and allowed it to happen. In all fairness then, shouldn't someone on the governments side be put on trial with possibility of execution for allowing it to happen? Do you see where Im going?
It definitely smells of distraction and propoganda to me.

*ducks out of way of flying bullets*

Agreed. Like i say, this chappy has "SCAPEGOAT" written all over him.

[wolverine04uk]

Jordan...As previously mentioned,the towers had been designed to withstand such circumstances,(impact plus heat generated by the calorific value of aviation fuel) Are you actually sure that the suggested Boeing airliners where exactly that at all?

And why did the steel girders not buckle and bow as one would normally expect then as they weakened due to the heat...if your thinking is correct? It just does not figure.

How then that no fragments that could have been identified as being from such a plane where found anyway in or around the site?

A similar plane apparently hit the pentagon also? Have you seen the size of the impact on the facade of the Pentagon? More consistant with a Piper Cherokee to my mind! And where is the almost football pitch wide damage on the ground caused by said plane before it impacted?

Why is there an argumnet that suggests that the facade was damaged by explosives that actually blew "out" a section of wall and not the damage that would have been caused by a very large commercial airliner crashing in to it?

There's a paper discussing this.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

[Jelster]

Steve,

You surprise me at how quick you are to judge me. Purely because I am willing to voice an alternative scenario than that which you and thousands...no millions of others have bought in to. I count myself among that number until recently and as previously mentioned this concerns me.

Peter, I'm not quick to judge you.... You are not just voicing an alternative scenario, you seem to be backing it, and I can't get my head round this "conspiracy theory" which basically says that the US Government not only let it happen, they made it a damn site worse...

And as for the strength of the building.... The Titanic was designed to be unsinkable, but it just so happened that the design, whilst seeming sound, was actually responsible for it's failure. My point is that you can "design" a building to withstand being hit by an aircraft, but until it actually happens, you can't be sure. By which time it's too late.

But getting back to the topic, the man aided & abetted mass murder & terrorism, he deserves the maximum penalty served from a proven justice system. In this case that is death.

.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Jordan...As previously mentioned,the towers had been designed to withstand such circumstance...

Dunno PH. They got it wrong? Designing something to deal with an event for which you've no experimental data isnt going to be easy.

How then that no fragments that could have been identified as being from such a plane where found anyway in or around the site?

Where, at the WTC, or the pentagon?

Seems that depending on who you talk to it was a plane, a missile, or elvis in a UFO firing lasers :lol:

A similar plane apparently hit the pentagon also? Have you seen the size of the impact on the facade of the Pentagon? More consistant with a Piper Cherokee to my mind! And where is the almost football pitch wide damage on the ground caused by said plane before it impacted?

I think it's difficult to get a sense of scale from photos. Bare in mind the size of the pentagon - it's the largest office complex in the world.

I guess it's possible the US government may have not done as much as they could have to prevent the attack, but I doubt they had an active involvement in making it happen. It would have been too difficult to cover up.

[wolverine04uk]

But getting back to the topic, the man aided & abetted mass murder & terrorism, he deserves the maximum penalty served from a proven justice system.
.

Which is my point. He aided and abetted. I don't know of anyone who has ever been executed for aiding and abetting.

[Peter Henry]

Steve...I do not think I am indicating my backing of the alternative line of thought. ( I am actually very uneasy about these theories even being present), maybe try to view the new infornmation..be it BS or not.... with an open mind.I do though make no apology for bringing it to the table for discussion.

In the case of the Titanic there was an obvious flaw in the design that led to many sections of the hull being filled with water when this should have been contained.

Jordan...I beleive that evidence of Boeings was oddly missing from both sites.

[Anonymous]

If anyone wants to see the Conspiricy Theory of which Peter speaks, the information is shown in this very informative video.

Be warned though, watch it with an open eye.. and set aside an hour as if you're like me, you'll get drawn into it and a brief "five minute viewing" turns into watching the entire film.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=Loose+Change&pl=true

[Peter Henry]

It can't be denied that there is a clamour for someone no matter how remotely involved with those terrible deeds to be seen to be punished. I think this guy is more a token gesture than actually a scape goat myself.

[jonboy]

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

At several hundred miles an hour, of which the kinetic energy released on impact must have been utterly immense and the shockwaves gone through the whole of the structure instantaneously.

As much I'd love a conspiracy theory to be true (to show governments in their true light) I honestly think one doesn't exist in this case. It was a well organized and well executed terrorist attack.


.

[Anonymous]

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

At several hundred miles an hour, of which the kinetic energy released on impact must have been utterly immense and the shockwaves gone through the whole of the structure instantaneously.

As much I'd love a conspiracy theory to be true (to show governments in their true light) I honestly think one doesn't exist in this case. It was a well organized and well executed terrorist attack.


.

I agree.

The ONLY conspiricy which has any substance, if there is to be one, is that the US government KNEW something was being planned, but failed to act upon the intelligence gleamed for one reason or another.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

At several hundred miles an hour, of which the kinetic energy released on impact must have been utterly immense and the shockwaves gone through the whole of the structure instantaneously.

As much I'd love a conspiracy theory to be true (to show governments in their true light) I honestly think one doesn't exist in this case. It was a well organized and well executed terrorist attack.


.

I agree.

The ONLY conspiricy which has any substance, if there is to be one, is that the US government KNEW something was being planned, but failed to act upon the intelligence gleamed for one reason or another.

And I reckon incompetance would be one of the most likely reasons.

[Anonymous]

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

At several hundred miles an hour, of which the kinetic energy released on impact must have been utterly immense and the shockwaves gone through the whole of the structure instantaneously.

As much I'd love a conspiracy theory to be true (to show governments in their true light) I honestly think one doesn't exist in this case. It was a well organized and well executed terrorist attack.


.

I agree.

The ONLY conspiricy which has any substance, if there is to be one, is that the US government KNEW something was being planned, but failed to act upon the intelligence gleamed for one reason or another.

And I reckon incompetance would be one of the most likely reasons.

There a great book im reading at the moment. Teeth of The Tiger, by Tom Clancy.

Its about post 9/11. Fictional, but very cleverly researched and planned. Well worth a read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0141004924/qid=1144158705/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/202-9680257-9047801

Take a look at it, it will open a new avenue of thinking about how the intellegence community works.

[Peter Henry]

Jonboy..Well I am aghast,nay devastated that you of all peeps would not have taken up this baton just a little way! :wink:

But your Kinetic energy Krypton factor? Would the design engineer's of the WTC not have calculated that in also? Would have been a somewhat flawed design without that surely? They were not just factoring in a Sainsbury's car park type bump?

Remember that footage of good old George at that kiddies school? When his aide whispers to him that a plane has hit the WTC? Reacted very calmly didn't he? Even more so when he was at that point being told about a SECOND plane that had hit...he already knew of the first!

And so why were "airliners" that have deviated way off course,entered in to radio silence not intercepted?

Conveniently no black boxes found at all?

No control tower or pilot communications released?

Why would 2 commercial airliners fly at just 27% occupancy at the same time on what would usually be highly demanded routes?

Have any of you ever seen David Copperfield perform one of his grand illusions?

[keithd]

Remember that footage of good old George at that kiddies school? When his aide whispers to him that a plane has hit the WTC? Reacted very calmly didn't he? Even more so when he was at that point being told about a SECOND plane that had hit...he already knew of the first!



he reacted like a rabbit caught in the headlights if you ask me. there was nobody by his side, literally, to tell him what he had to do.

[Filipe M.]

It wasnt just a fire though was it. A good 200 tonnes of airliner slammed into the building first.

At several hundred miles an hour, of which the kinetic energy released on impact must have been utterly immense and the shockwaves gone through the whole of the structure instantaneously.

.

Not being a structures engineer, but having some experience in the field, I'd risk saying that the deformation of the building's perimetral structure could somehow absorb a great part of the plane's momentum before it hit the core. At that kind of masses and speeds we're not talking about "rigid" things anymore, we're talking "crash structures" that can be designed to absorb and dissipate energy on impact before it causes "real" damage on the structure.

Sorry, carry on... :oops:

[Captain Nemo]

an eye for an eye just leaves everyone blind.

but top him anyway

[jonboy]

But your Kinetic energy Krypton factor? Would the design engineer's of the WTC not have calculated that in also? Would have been a somewhat flawed design without that surely? They were not just factoring in a Sainsbury's car park type bump?

I honestly don't think that the kind of structural reinforcement required for this sort of cataclysmic event would have been built in to the building, it would simply have been too expensive - and yes I'm serious, money is far more important than lives in industry, and there are many examples of this. Designed to withstand the impact of a light aircraft yes, an airliner no.

Remember that footage of good old George at that kiddies school? When his aide whispers to him that a plane has hit the WTC? Reacted very calmly didn't he? Even more so when he was at that point being told about a SECOND plane that had hit...he already knew of the first!

No, George is a total feckwit, the look on his face (at all times) merely reflects the two or three brain cells that occasionally knock together.

And so why were "airliners" that have deviated way off course,entered in to radio silence not intercepted?

Probably due to almost total incompetency, something the US military is famous for - by the time they'd come to a plan of action that had been agreed upon by 27 different generals, it was past the point of interception.

Conveniently no black boxes found at all?

Have you any idea of the heat generated up there? Blackboxes are tough but not that tough.

No control tower or pilot communications released?

The planes were taken over, no communication necessary or attempted.

Why would 2 commercial airliners fly at just 27% occupancy at the same time on what would usually be highly demanded routes?

It's often the case that for various co-incidental reasons there can be very few people on a train at peak times, or no expected bottle-neck on a road network that's normally there. Not everything can be explained, or actually needs to be.

Have any of you ever seen David Copperfield perform one of his grand illusions?

Yes, he's pretty good, why is he in on this too? :lol:


.

[Peter Henry]

Jonboy wrote:

Yes, he's pretty good, why is he in on this too?

Aha! See you were toying with me all along! Indeed Copperfieldesque possibilites lie within this curious tale! :wink:

[jonboy]

So the Twin Towers ar actually still standing? :lol:


.

[Peter Henry]

Jonboy.....All done with the aid of mirrors and a devilishly placed trap door. :wink:

[philipMac]

First of all, people just saying PH is talking ******** is not fair. It is completely reasonable to through up arguments that seem to be insane at a glance, for discussion. Darwin's theory of evolution, earth going around the sun, God not existing... etc etc, all very contentious at some point in time. Argue your point (like PH has).

I have seen various videos, pointing out charges / squibs etc. And, I have heard the arguments that say that a plane shouldnt take down the tower.
The thing is, a plane didnt.
1) A plane slammed into the tower, and instantly dissapated all of its very considerable energy into the building. And the building barely batted an eyelid. Stood there.
Now, all the energy has to go somewhere, some of it exploded out through the other side of the building, but most of it was converted into a massive shock wave that resonated through the place.

2) This shock wave shattered / tore off the insulation covering the metal frame of the building. All of it, quite uniformly, everything down to the bare metal.

3) An entire plane load of aviation fuel was deposited on the floor of impact, and this was helpfully lit, and burned at incredible temperatures.

4) After some time the previously protected metal frame collapsed on itself, placing the weight of two floors onto the one below, etc.

I do not thing those "squibs" were squibs, I think they were pre-stressed concrete under insane amounts of compression and various other forces violently failing. The fact that they all failed at the same time, in the same places aroun he building is to be expected, as the building was collapseing uniformly from above.

:roll:
Ha ha, any one buying it :lol:?
Nah, seriously, I have not been convinced at all about this conspiracy idea. But, I am glad people are thinking this way. Shows at least people are questioning, which is always good.

[K]

Everybody lies.

Everybody tells the truth.

It's just the proportions that change, and they rarely add up to 100%.

Whilst we are capable of great acts for good or ill, we are also capable of great ignorance and lazyness. It's not a case of swallowing lies or dealing in spin, being gullible or conned by those in power - it's often simply a case of people not really caring, but heaven forbid they would admit that.


Noone likes to be seen to be ignorance. So they lie. They tell stories. They tell some truths, just not their own. The proportions change. Because if ignorance is no defence then the is the danger that perhaps we are all guilty.

Only if you personally commit an act will you ever possibly know why it was truely done. Sometimes, often, not even then because the ones we lie to the most are ourselves.


Sorry, I seem to be in a very philospohical mood and burbling again! :oops:

[philipMac]

That was quite nice.

I like K. :lol:

[jonboy]

Everybody lies.

Everybody tells the truth.

It's just the proportions that change, and they rarely add up to 100%.

Whilst we are capable of great acts for good or ill, we are also capable of great ignorance and lazyness. It's not a case of swallowing lies or dealing in spin, being gullible or conned by those in power - it's often simply a case of people not really caring, but heaven forbid they would admit that.


Noone likes to be seen to be ignorance. So they lie. They tell stories. They tell some truths, just not their own. The proportions change. Because if ignorance is no defence then the is the danger that perhaps we are all guilty.

Only if you personally commit an act will you ever possibly know why it was truely done. Sometimes, often, not even then because the ones we lie to the most are ourselves.


Sorry, I seem to be in a very philospohical mood and burbling again! :oops:

Again, good stuff. The voice of reason prevails ;).


.

[Peter Henry]

So does that mean that David doesn't get the next gig then? :?

[UlsterSV]

I agree with Peter Henry, to a point. 9/11 was a hoax carried out by Zionist/American powers. However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel. The Arab/Muslim world poses a serious (and the only) threat to israel. We've taken out Afghanistan and Iraq. Now Iran is next on their wee list. Iran hates israel. And it is right on their doorstep. 9/11 simply created the current climate of fear that allows the powers at be to do what they want. And what they want is to protect israel at all costs. Fear paralyses the masses and allows our governments to shape our way of thinking. Someone said about 9/11 being overkill, but that's what's needed. The bigger the lie is the better. And the more often you tell it, the more people will believe it is true. People just cannot believe that such a catastrophic event as 9/11 could ever be a lie. Lies just can't be that big. That's why big is better.

I very much doubt the people who flew those planes were anything at all to do with Zionist/American forces. But it's these forces pushing their buttons, manipulating them into carrying out 9/11 and giving the Zionist/American administration the platform needed to secure israel's future. This is also why, I believe, we had 7/7.

And yeah, hang 'im high!

[Peter Henry]

Ulster...No mate....you don't dare to believe that due to the things they are allowed to get away with,( and continue to receive massive backing from the U.S.)

That the Israeli tail is now wagging the American dog? Shame on you,how could you ever suggest such a thing? :wink:

[amarko5]

Watched a documentary on the building of the twin towers (before 9/11) and the building was built to withstand a hit from a 707 airliner (the largest jet at the time) however this was calculated as if the plane was at the end of its journey (ie coming into land) landing speed and empty tanks.

not built to withstand a modern jet liner with full tanks going flat out :shock:

also the building was flawed in its design, relying ever so heavily on trusses coated in a fragile (brittle) anti fire coating , (which basically got blasted off) and if you then add thousands of gallons of kerosine and a masive wind to fan the flames. well metal goes soft when hot "don't it ".

conspiracies yes to a point ( as in badly acted on information) but bombs in the WTC >>>>>>>>>>>>> NO WAY HOS'E :wink:

[philipMac]

more fuel for PH et al. 8)

"The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President **** Cheney."

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/040406mainsuspect.htm

[Peter Henry]

Mark my words...the questions far out weigh the truthful answers in this nest of worms. :?

[K]

Mark my words...the questions far out weigh the truthful answers in this nest of worms. :?

And therein lay the seeds of our own destruction.

Questions require answers. Answers require knowledge. Knowledge requires either truth or lie. Guess which is easier?

Like JFK, Roswell, Diana, you name any of the 'great' conspiracy theories, we are never going to know the pure and unadulterated truth. Does that mean we should stop asking?

Are we even capable of no longer questioning?

As a race we have long looked to the stars and wondered what's out there. Or looked to ourselves and our dead and wondered who we are and where do we go. We cannot help but question.
It is obediance which needs to be trained or coerced.

But if questions are asked, answers need to be provided. Do you then question the answers, or even the questions! Eventually you will be questioning the truth rather than the lie, but how do you tell?
When do you stop?

When you, as an individual, are happy. When you can sleep at night. Truth is objective, comfort is subjective. Let's face it, we will settle for comfort 9 times out of 10 and tell ourselves it is truth.

That is why I think there is a great chance this man will die. He will be executed. Not for his crimes, beliefs, the hows, wheres and whys. But for a nation's comfort, pure and simple.

Is that right, who's to say. But is that our nature - yes, I'm afraid so.

[K]

So does that mean that David doesn't get the next gig then? :?

:lol: No. He can go and sit in the middle of the Great Wall of China and sulk. :wink:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Good post K. Indeed, it isnt just this indervidual whos fate isnt being guided by any form of truth or justice. Consider those imprisoned at Guantanamo bay. It's quite possible these 'terrorists' dont know anything important at all, so there should be no security issues with trying them. If they do know something, then any information they have will be next to useless because it'll either be out of date or no longer inaccurate. The chance they pose any immediate threat is next to nothing.

Indeed, the best thing to do with these people would be to let them go, and keep tabs on them.

At any rate, there is no good reason to keep them in jail without trial, other than some form of perverted comfort gained by it, as you say.

[akbarhussain]

However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel.

It is the oil in the region that makes Isreal of any significance to the west.

[jonboy]

However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel.

It is the oil in the region that makes Isreal of any significance to the west.

No it isn't. It's the fact that the US is governed (in general) both politically and financially by Jews (of which I have no opinion one way or the other), and therefore as the motherland they will defend it to the last.


.

[akbarhussain]

However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel.

It is the oil in the region that makes Isreal of any significance to the west.

No it isn't. It's the fact that the US is governed (in general) both politically and financially by Jews (of which I have no opinion one way or the other), and therefore as the motherland they will defend it to the last.


.


lol, you're getting a bit NWO on me now. I'd be interested in seeing any evidence you have of this - anything that doesn't have a connection to Alex Jones that is.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

jonboy is correct, I'd like to see any evidence you have that he isn't.

[jonboy]

However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel.

It is the oil in the region that makes Isreal of any significance to the west.

No it isn't. It's the fact that the US is governed (in general) both politically and financially by Jews (of which I have no opinion one way or the other), and therefore as the motherland they will defend it to the last.


.


lol, you're getting a bit NWO on me now. I'd be interested in seeing any evidence you have of this - anything that doesn't have a connection to Alex Jones that is.


NWO?

And the evidence is all over the shop, come now it doesn't take much in the way of detective work. How's your bike by the way? ;)


.

[akbarhussain]

jonboy is correct, I'd like to see any evidence you have that he isn't.

lol. Really, just lol.

[Peter Henry]

If the Jewish motherland was in a location where the life blood of the modern world was not so close to hand things might indeed be very different. I personally believe that the geographical position of Israel is crucial in America's thinking and actions.

And how correct Jonboy is, like it or not The Jews run the modern world. That is not racist, it is an acceptance of the present world order.

[akbarhussain]

However, I don't think it has anything to do with oil and everything to do with israel.

It is the oil in the region that makes Isreal of any significance to the west.

No it isn't. It's the fact that the US is governed (in general) both politically and financially by Jews (of which I have no opinion one way or the other), and therefore as the motherland they will defend it to the last.


.


lol, you're getting a bit NWO on me now. I'd be interested in seeing any evidence you have of this - anything that doesn't have a connection to Alex Jones that is.


NWO?

And the evidence is all over the shop, come now it doesn't take much in the way of detective work. How's your bike by the way? ;)


.

NWO = New World Order.

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish. What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

The bikes going just great, thanks for asking.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

jonboy is correct, I'd like to see any evidence you have that he isn't.

lol. Really, just lol.

I'm serious.

Why do you think we should take what you say at face value and believe what you say against the hundreds of websites that say otherwise? The best you can do it produce your own web links, and thats not exactly convincing when we can easily claim they are sites spouting rubbish.

[akbarhussain]

jonboy is correct, I'd like to see any evidence you have that he isn't.

lol. Really, just lol.

I'm serious.

Why do you think we should take what you say at face value and believe what you say against the hundreds of websites that say otherwise? The best you can do it produce your own web links, and thats not exactly convincing when we can easily claim they are sites spouting rubbish.

Let me explain how a discussion usually works. Person 1 (in this case JonBoy) states his opinion, and if he wants it to be considered seriously, then he should really reference with sites that can be verified as legitimate. Person B (in this case me) can then read around the subject, decide if he feels that the references to information are legitimate, and then respond with an educated and informed reply.

That is how discussions usually occur.



Why do you think we should take what you say at face value and believe what you say against the hundreds of websites that say otherwise?

That is exaclty my point - I don't think that. I back up my opinion with legitamate sources that can be read and verified. WHere are these 'hundreds of websites' that disagree with my opinion?

he best you can do it produce your own web links, and thats not exactly convincing when we can easily claim they are sites spouting rubbish.

Really, just lol. Again. If you read back on any quotes/references I have used - most are hardly just web links to some unknown reference site. I have used quotes from current/past government officials. Links to PNAC website. Links to UN website. Links to UN resolutions.

You strike me as a person with little in the way of logic. You simply say something and expect it to be taken as gospel. I am very happy to be disproved in this - but please don't bother coming back with your say so cos its tiresome.

* HINT - if you disagree with anything I have said - quote me directly and use a reference to back yourself up. Its not that difficult. *

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish. What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

You said it, not me.

As for how a discussion works, someone puts across an opinion, if his opinion is validated by others then the onus is one the person who disagrees to prove their point.

[akbarhussain]

You said it, not me

Yep, I said that the evidence is rubbish. Thanks for agreeing with me.

As for how a discussion works, someone puts across an opinion, if his opinion is validated by others then the onus is one the person who disagrees to prove their point.

lol @ an opinion in any way been validated by others simply nodding agreement. Really, you're logic is less that that of a very young child. I suspect that you are simply trolling, and not very well either. But I hope for your sake that you are - or maybe you should really look at the possibility of sterilisation to stop the dunce gene from being passed on any further.

[Anonymous]

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish. What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

You said it, not me.

As for how a discussion works, someone puts across an opinion, if his opinion is validated by others then the onus is one the person who disagrees to prove their point.

Both close, but no cigar.

Discussion, and debates, are complex issues and there are many different orders and rules to successful debating.

All of which can be found HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion)

PS - Grinch - i did it!!!! 8)

[jonboy]

NWO = New World Order.

Ah, thanks.

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish.

Get a grip on the real would AH, what I'm saying is accepted by all credible and major journalists, and if you don't believe me then why not go to the trouble of asking them? I am honestly becoming a little tired of your naivety and (no offence intended) ignorance.

What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

No, I have not even mentioned this at all, you are are assuming things incorrectly. I am neither in favour or against Jews and the world power that they hold, but to infer that I'm anti-semetic by linking my unbiased viewpoint with that of "Aryan Nation propaganda" is outrageous and libellous - please watch your choice of words.

The bikes going just great, thanks for asking.

Good, what is it out of interest?

[jonboy]

But I hope for your sake that you are - or maybe you should really look at the possibility of sterilisation to stop the dunce gene from being passed on any further.

That was unacceptable, please make an apology or be considered for a seven day ban.

.

[Anonymous]

Well that killed the thread. :lol: :lol:

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You said it, not me

Yep, I said that the evidence is rubbish. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Prove it.

lol @ an opinion in any way been validated by others simply nodding agreement.

It means the burden of proof is on you. It's not on me because you're the only one disagreeing with me, and since you command the respect of a squashed cockroach, I'm not going out of my way to convince you of my argument because I dont value your opinion.

Really, you're logic is less that that of a very young child.

What logic? I've not said anything other than prove your point.

I suspect that you are simply trolling, and not very well either. But I hope for your sake that you are - or maybe you should really look at the possibility of sterilisation to stop the dunce gene from being passed on any further.

The all knowing akbar reduced to insults eh?

[Peter Henry]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/494/yellowcard0mg.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[akbarhussain]

Get a grip on the real would AH, what I'm saying is accepted by all credible and major journalists, and if you don't believe me then why not go to the trouble of asking them? I am honestly becoming a little tired of your naivety and (no offence intended) ignorance.

America is run and governed by Jews. Hmmm, that is accepted by 'all credible and major journalists'. I have emailed your quote to several major UK and European journals, so will let you know their responses. I think you'll be unpleasently surprised.

No, I have not even mentioned this at all, you are are assuming things incorrectly. I am neither in favour or against Jews and the world power that they hold, but to infer that I'm anti-semetic by linking my unbiased viewpoint with that of "Aryan Nation propaganda" is outrageous and libellous - please watch your choice of words.

Where did I link what you said to Aryan propaganda? I correctly stated that your viewpoint (that 'America is run and governed by Jews') is was one that was used by the Aryan Nation as far back as the early 1970's. I cannot help the facts.

[akbarhussain]

But I hope for your sake that you are - or maybe you should really look at the possibility of sterilisation to stop the dunce gene from being passed on any further.

That was unacceptable, please make an apology or be considered for a seven day ban.

.

I apologise unreservedly to the moderators of the forum for breaking any ToS aggreements.

[jonboy]

Okay, accepted - but let's keep things civil.


.

[akbarhussain]

You said it, not me

Yep, I said that the evidence is rubbish. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Prove it.




What I said:

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish. What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

There, I have proved that I said that the evidenc is rubbish.

'm not going out of my way to convince you of my argument because I dont value your opinion.

lol. Translated, I can't successfully argue my point. So I am going to use the fact that I disagree as an excuse not to reply. lol.

What logic? I've not said anything other than prove your point.

Thankyou, yes, you have proved my point that your logic is non-existant.

The all knowing akbar reduced to insults eh?

But is it still considered an insult if it is true?

[jonboy]

I think you'll be unpleasently surprised.

No, I don't think I will. Remember that I said speak, not email. Officially they might find it awkward to commit to a career-sidelining politically-incorrect point of view.


.

[Spiderman]

Conveniently no black boxes found at all?

Have you any idea of the heat generated up there? Blackboxes are tough but not that tough.

.


According to Firfighters there at the time, they did find the black boxes. In fact one swore on oath that he helped FBI agents load one into the back of an FBI van.
The FBI themsleves said at various times that they did recover the boxes but only played the "acceptable & relevant parts" to the families of those on board by special arrangement.
They also said at other times that no black boxes were ever recovered.

So whats the truth?

This goes some way to helping those who dont believe they hype to make their own conclusions.
"A German company, CONVAR of Pirmasens near the French border, was given more than 400 computer hard drives from the wreckage of the World Trade Center. These are extremely sensitive computer components that went through the collapse of the World Trade Center. Using blue laser technology, CONVAR succeeded in reconstructing all the data from the computer debris.This includes diverse financial data and telecommunication protocols up to a few seconds before the collapse of each tower. (Source: e-mail from CONVAR Germany on October 16, 2003.) The U.S. government’s blatant lie about the allegedly missing black boxes is outright made ludicrous by this fact."

Recently, watching the documentry "Inside 9/11" they broadcast a section of communication between ATC and the lead hijacker flying the first plane. He was telling ATC that they have control of the aircraft and they are not intending to hurt anyone. They are turning back to the airport they took off from and from there they will speak with the authorities and make clear their demands.

The you read about this technology Global Hawk UAV (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=175) and wonder if these guys who hijacked the planes thought they were enering into a very diffrent mission than that they ended up in.
Maybe thats why the us govt dont want anyone to hear the full blackbox transcripts. Maybe in there it becomes clear that the planes are being controlled by something other than the guy in the pilots seat. maybe they are screaming at ATC that they have no control and ASKING for jets to be scrambled to help them / shot them down.

Maybe.

This is gonna be like the kenedy assasination. Everyone knows the story put out there by the govt just doesnt hold water, but no one can come up with anything else that doesnt sound totally nuts to the general public, and thus dismissed as pure fantasy or conspiracy theory.

If i'd told you that this govt was gonna pass draconian anti-terror laws, and then use them to physicaly drag out a 68yr old member of their own polital party from a party conference..... what would you have called me?
Until you saw it with your own eyes and were so gobsmaked that words failed you?

As K said, truth is a funny thing. And not a commodity that powerful poeple trade in. They just tell us wht they want us to believe.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

You said it, not me

Yep, I said that the evidence is rubbish. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Prove it.




What I said:

Yep, you are correct, I can google the subject and come up with hundreds of link sites spouting the same rubbish. What you are talking about was mainly used as Aryan Nation propaganda as far back as the early 1970's. I do not call this evidence.

There, I have proved that I said that the evidenc is rubbish.

You havn't proven anything, you've just repeated yourself.

'm not going out of my way to convince you of my argument because I dont value your opinion.

lol. Translated, I can't successfully argue my point. So I am going to use the fact that I disagree as an excuse not to reply. lol.

Yet you've still not argued your point either.

What logic? I've not said anything other than prove your point.

Thankyou, yes, you have proved my point that your logic is non-existant.

For me to apply logic to my argument would require me to form an argument in the first place, which I have not done. Are you stupid or something?

The all knowing akbar reduced to insults eh?

But is it still considered an insult if it is true?

I find it amusing that the man who claims he thouroughly researches a subject before coming to an objective conclusion can claim I'm geneticaly flawed from a few paragraphs on an internet form.

[Jelster]

Let me explain how a discussion usually works. Person 1 (in this case JonBoy) states his opinion, and if he wants it to be considered seriously, then he should really reference with sites that can be verified as legitimate. Person B (in this case me) can then read around the subject, decide if he feels that the references to information are legitimate, and then respond with an educated and informed reply.

That is how discussions usually occur.

No, that's a debate.. You can have a discussion with somebody even if their views are the same as yours. You probably have very little experience of this though...

So what bike was it you had again ??

How come you only show your face when there is a politically orientated discussion where you think can impose YOUR views. Have you actually contributed to anything on this site which actually pertains to bikes, or indeed riding one ?

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[Peter Henry]

The aviation fuel that ignited in the WTC would not have created temperatures high enough to buckle/melt any part of the steel structures. Bare in mind that the fires were burning within areas that were gradually being starved of oxygen(needed for the fires to continue) the fires though being able to continue for some time.......would never have caused the collapse of those buildings.

I am more tempted to believe that the destruction of those buildings was carefully pre planned and orchestrated. I defy anyone to re enact that level of demolition by using an equivalent impact and ignition of aviation fuel.

Has anyone not found it interesting how the detailed design drawings of the towers have never become available to the public? The possibility that highlighting the obvious positions for the explosives to be placed to cause the devastating results required would easilly be achieved?

Does it not strike anyone as odd, how uniform those collapses were?

[jonboy]

I find it amusing that the man who claims he thouroughly researches a subject before coming to an objective conclusion can claim I'm geneticaly flawed from a few paragraphs on an internet form.

Well TBH there is some truth in this Jordan, I mean how many bikers actually have large fluffy tail eh? :lol:


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[Flamin_Squirrel]

I find it amusing that the man who claims he thouroughly researches a subject before coming to an objective conclusion can claim I'm geneticaly flawed from a few paragraphs on an internet form.

Well TBH there is some truth in this Jordan, I mean how many bikers actually have large fluffy tail eh? :lol:


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8-[