Absolutely ****ing ludicrous

[northwind]

yup, but this thread isn't about immigrants as a whole, it's about 9 people. 9 people who took a plane load of hostiges and put there lives in danger. that takes planning, make the explosives, get the guns plan the hijack. if it was truely despiration then they wouldn't have had enough time to plan it. they were willing to put there lives in risk to pull it off, and possible end up killing a plane load of people in the process. it's a bit too selfish for my likeing.


Well said... Though I disagree (what a shock!) I don't think desperation has to require speed, and it wouldnd't have to be a drawn-out process. I'm pretty sure I could lay hands on simple explosives and a gun in a day, even in britain, though there'd be no way I could do it without being found out.

Were they actually real explosives? Sky say so, CNN say not, the BBC didn't say. No idea myself.

[Ed]

I think lyn has a point here to be fair, and I've probably missed it.

I do not agree under any circumstances with any state imposing the death penalty, whether it be Malaysia for drugs, or a US state for whatever. I simply don't agree with it, never have, never will. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So why should we be complicit in returning people to a country where they will face near certain death. I don't know that these people will face a sticky end there. But we should not facilitate it.

So a correct penalty? Life in jail. Deportation if safe to do so. Yes we end up paying, but so we do for so many other unworthies that clog up prison. Do a few more make that much difference? No I don't think so.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Cost - circa £40K per individual per year. Drop in the ocean.

[amarko5]

those who come here legitimately and work for a living, fine those spongers and beggers and Terrorists (whichever way you paint it they were terrorists to the passengers) go home.

So we should send the next lot of London bombers and their helpers back home to Leeds then?



well here we go on a different theme . who brainwashed these individuals :?: all the mad mullahs that were immigrants (ie the likes of hook hand and friends )

is there a circle appearing anyone :wink:

[BILLY]

We've had the biggest teenage pregnancy rate for decades - predominantly white teenage girls.

what does that have to do with anything? or are you implying that all female teenage girls who fall pregnant will not get a job, and will sponge and beg. 'cause that simply isn't the case.

No but single mothers are predominantly one of the welfare systems main beneficiaries. Not to mention the nice council flat they get to go with it. :wink: :P

The point which you so elequantly missed is that while amarko was attributing these properties solely to immigrants or to seemingly most of them, hes missing the fact that that just isnt the case. That there are a lot of British people sponging and using the welfare state - which was the point of using that as an example.

Unless you'd dare to suggest child benefit to all these teenage mothers doesnt make a dent in the whole social security budget?

You know its funny how when it comes to raising a point like that, someone immediately jumps up and says Not everyone falls into that category. But the moment someone says all immigrants do, that line of reasoning goes out the window when quite categorically its a minority of immigrants that give the majority that come here to work and contribute a bad name.

Perhaps a little consistency and objectiveness would be nice. So what are you sugesting that teanage girls that get pregnant should be made to have an abortion!!!

[amarko5]

Let's just put it this way Lyn 3 deaths in carlisle fairly recently. 2 were comitted by illegal imigrants and 1 by a "legal" immigrant.

..and how many crimes are committed each year by locals?

Cheers
Ben

as a matter of interest in the same period 1 and that was over the border in scotland still local but not in carlisle

so "but out" ben or do some research before replying :P :lol:

Now that made me really :lol: :smt043

Cheers


Ben

I was talking about murder :roll:

[Godikus]

We've had the biggest teenage pregnancy rate for decades - predominantly white teenage girls.

what does that have to do with anything? or are you implying that all female teenage girls who fall pregnant will not get a job, and will sponge and beg. 'cause that simply isn't the case.

No but single mothers are predominantly one of the welfare systems main beneficiaries. Not to mention the nice council flat they get to go with it. :wink: :P

The point which you so elequantly missed is that while amarko was attributing these properties solely to immigrants or to seemingly most of them, hes missing the fact that that just isnt the case. That there are a lot of British people sponging and using the welfare state - which was the point of using that as an example.

Unless you'd dare to suggest child benefit to all these teenage mothers doesnt make a dent in the whole social security budget?

You know its funny how when it comes to raising a point like that, someone immediately jumps up and says Not everyone falls into that category. But the moment someone says all immigrants do, that line of reasoning goes out the window when quite categorically its a minority of immigrants that give the majority that come here to work and contribute a bad name.

Perhaps a little consistency and objectiveness would be nice.

i never said all immigrants do. i know that they don't.

there is a slight diference in giving a girl a place to live and raise her child when all she done wrong was not take precautions, and giving a house to someone who has hijaked a plane full of people at gun point.

[medwaysv]

But its ok for them to potentially participate (threaten) to murder.......!!

Of course it's not OK! But it's also not punishable by death... And the difference between threat and action is all the difference there needs to be.

EXACTLY!! It is not a 100% fact that these people will be killed if they are sent home. It is a threat. all the difference there needs to be!

The difference between threat and action is a fine line when innocent people's lives are at stake.

[Peter Henry]

But don't you see? There has to be an element of low life? There has to be situations where people can climb on their box in Hyde Park Corner? There has to be cases that allow the tabloid press to brainwash you in to unhealthy thought toward others.

It gives so many a feeling of righteousness in their own contribution to society. If it was not acceptable to a degree, then why has no political party stood up and anounced outright that they intend to start with a clean slate as regards all of these topics that so many appear to find so objectionable? Why? Because it carries no real value at the end of the day,despite how the re-employment of funds could in theory create greater benefit to more "deserving" causes.

And for someone,anyone to do harm to a person close to you,carries no more shock or pain should they have grown up right next to you or in fact recently arrived on a slow boat from who knows where. The nationality card or colour card or in fact creed are very out dated and dangerous cards to play in this world of vanishing borders.

Could it be that old "island" mentality again? Something I have never understood. Like Britain,(or more accurately England) still believeing that it is a big player in the over all scheme of world affairs? Thus it's citizens seek to repel the borders at all times and at all costs? I await to be educated and enlightened.......

[medwaysv]

I think lyn has a point here to be fair, and I've probably missed it.

I do not agree under any circumstances with any state imposing the death penalty, whether it be Malaysia for drugs, or a US state for whatever. I simply don't agree with it, never have, never will. Two wrongs don't make a right.

So why should we be complicit in returning people to a country where they will face near certain death. I don't know that these people will face a sticky end there. But we should not facilitate it.

So a correct penalty? Life in jail. Deportation if safe to do so. Yes we end up paying, but so we do for so many other unworthies that clog up prison. Do a few more make that much difference? No I don't think so.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Cost - circa £40K per individual per year. Drop in the ocean.

But if you had that same lax attitude why not just let them ALL stay!?!?!?!

Hey while we're at it... let them all stay then we can sort out the 'wheat' from the 'chaff'........ when it's too late!

[lynw]

No but single mothers are predominantly one of the welfare systems main beneficiaries. Not to mention the nice council flat they get to go with it. :wink: :P

The point which you so elequantly missed is that while amarko was attributing these properties solely to immigrants or to seemingly most of them, hes missing the fact that that just isnt the case. That there are a lot of British people sponging and using the welfare state - which was the point of using that as an example.

Unless you'd dare to suggest child benefit to all these teenage mothers doesnt make a dent in the whole social security budget?

You know its funny how when it comes to raising a point like that, someone immediately jumps up and says Not everyone falls into that category. But the moment someone says all immigrants do, that line of reasoning goes out the window when quite categorically its a minority of immigrants that give the majority that come here to work and contribute a bad name.

Perhaps a little consistency and objectiveness would be nice. So what are you sugesting that teanage girls that get pregnant should be made to have an abortion!!!

Erm no. In fact I wasnt making any suggestions as to how to resolve that problem. Ill put down you misreading it and assuming that down to the lateness of the hour. :wink:

Basically, amarko was attributing sponging and begging off the welfare state to the majority of immigrants. My reply to that was that teenage pregnancies for British girls is a significantly high amount out the welfare budget.

The points since youve missed them were:
1. British people, for EXAMPLE teenage pregnancies, are a huge drain on the welfare budget. More so than immigrants are.
2. That the minority of immigrants give the majority a bad name, and presuming the majority are here to sponge is groundless and based on fear and ignorance of reality. The truth is the majority do something constructive for the country. But the minority taint that and people end up willing to believe its far worse than it is.

Immigration is the 21st Century Witch hunts. :( People are too willing to believe based on fear and groundless accusations and inaccuracies. And now people are happy to send others to their deaths willingly, it seems we have the 21st Century version of the burning at the stake.

Nice to see people have progressed in their thinking over the past 600 years. :(

[amarko5]

And for someone,anyone to do harm to a person close to you,carries no more shock or pain should they have grown up right next to you or in fact recently arrived on a slow boat from who knows where. The nationality card or colour card or in fact creed are very out dated and dangerous cards to play in this world of vanishing borders.

I await to be educated and enlightened.......

if the borders had not "vanished" then that child would not have been conceived and then butchered by a colourful, card carrying, slow boat rider, of whatever creed.

circles again :?

[Peter Henry]

Hmmm this death penalty thing? It is man that chooses at any time to state that to kill another person is unlawfull. I think it safe to say that was never the natural order and understanding of how it worked in times gone by?

Two wrongs not making a right and all that? Well we can espouse to that view due to us being educated people. But what if the taking of life had never been judged to be a crime? We could merrily go around and pop off who ever takes our displeasure? This is all a concept that we have grown to accept and bide by,(in general) Sure we need order, but what if to take a life a day was believed to keep the Doctor away? Removing yet another would not matter then would it? It all boils down to what we have grown to learn as being classed as crimes.

Does that at all make any sense? I am not too convinced! :wink: :P

[amarko5]

Basically, amarko was attributing sponging and begging off the welfare state to the majority of immigrants. My reply to that was that teenage pregnancies for British girls is a significantly high amount out the welfare budget.



Erm did I :wink: I think I said those that sponge and beg "**** off" those that work and contribute and abide by the laws of the land "hello" :wink:

[northwind]

EXACTLY!! It is not a 100% fact that these people will be killed if they are sent home. It is a threat. all the difference there needs to be!

The difference between threat and action is a fine line when innocent people's lives are at stake.

It's a fine line, but they didn't cross it. And then it becomes a matter of degrees. At what point do we say it's too dangerous? Does it have to be 100% certain that they face death? 90%? 50% Or do we do the sensible thing and let each case be decided on merit? Which is absolutely what happened here.

Are they more likely to be killed than the people they took hostage? Seems likely. That chance was slim, and was side-effect rather than intent.

[lynw]

Basically, amarko was attributing sponging and begging off the welfare state to the majority of immigrants. My reply to that was that teenage pregnancies for British girls is a significantly high amount out the welfare budget.



Erm did I :wink: I think I said those that sponge and beg "p*ss off" those that work and contribute and abide by the laws of the land "hello" :wink:

Sorry, its late and thats how I read it. :wink: :D Problem is as said, too many people presume its the majority of immigrants that are sponging, not the minority.

But:

Fact: No-one here knows if they want to work or not.
Fact: The British government have prevented them from working if they wanted to.
Fact: The British government effectively forced them to be on benefits for the duration of the decision making process
Fact: They have technically not broken any British laws
Fact: The British government are responsible for the whole mess tbh by not charging them or not making a decision sooner.
Fact: The government have ruled if they are deported they will be murdered.

End of day this isnt about immigration. Its not about whether they are desirable or undesirables in this country. Its ultimately about whether the government should be allowed to act as an accomplice in their murder. I dont think they should.

[Blue Flame]

Back at the beginning of this post.

.........Oh boy, thats going to get some flack isnt it? :P

Well you weren't wrong there :!: :!: :jocolor:

I can just see you in Blackpool with your fortune teller's tent :wink:

My thoughts.

Why can't everybody just get along and live together. Leaders, Religion and Borders just get in the way of all of that.

And before you all say it. Yes it's a pipe dream....... but its a nice one.

[lynw]

Back at the beginning of this post.

.........Oh boy, thats going to get some flack isnt it? :P

Well you weren't wrong there :!: :!: :jocolor:

I can just see you in Blackpool with your fortune teller's tent :wink:

My thoughts.

Why can't everybody just get along and live together. Leaders, Religion and Borders just get in the way of all of that.

And before you all say it. Yes it's a pipe dream....... but its a nice one.

I predict another 2 pages before I log in tomorrow. :wink: :P :lol: :lol: :lol: 4 if GYKD and UlsterSV get wind of the immigration issues in this thread. :P :wink: :lol:

[6+ if people keep quoting :twisted: ]

[amarko5]

Basically, amarko was attributing sponging and begging off the welfare state to the majority of immigrants. My reply to that was that teenage pregnancies for British girls is a significantly high amount out the welfare budget.



Erm did I :wink: I think I said those that sponge and beg "p*ss off" those that work and contribute and abide by the laws of the land "hello" :wink:

Sorry, its late and thats how I read it. :wink: :D Problem is as said, too many people presume its the majority of immigrants that are sponging, not the minority.

But:

Fact: No-one here knows if they want to work or not.
Fact: The British government have prevented them from working if they wanted to.
Fact: The British government effectively forced them to be on benefits for the duration of the decision making process
Fact: They have technically not broken any British laws
Fact: The British government are responsible for the whole mess tbh by not charging them or not making a decision sooner.
Fact: The government have ruled if they are deported they will be murdered.

End of day this isnt about immigration. Its not about whether they are desirable or undesirables in this country. Its ultimately about whether the government should be allowed to act as an accomplice in their murder. I dont think they should.

we have a lot of differing views , and thats what makes life interesting. :lol: there are however also age differences across this forum and i feel as you get older and see more and more things. learn more and more things . then your opinions change.

ever watched that documentary on the tv 7 , 14 , 21, 30 something like that , a very enlightning program indeed.

anyway "your wrong" and i am right :P :lol: :lol:

[lynw]

we have a lot of differing views , and thats what makes life interesting. :lol: there are however also age differences across this forum and i feel as you get older and see more and more things. learn more and more things . then your opinions change.

ever watched that documentary on the tv 7 , 14 , 21, 30 something like that , a very enlightning program indeed.

anyway "your wrong" and i am right :P :lol: :lol:

It does to the interesting and to changing your opinion by learning more. I do tend to read about these issues from multiple sources rather than blindly presume the scaremongering to be true. It saddens me people are too readily willing to believe the worst of the majority when a small amount of effort would show that the perception is groundless and based on nothing but fear. Ill leave the prejudice out for the time being. :wink:

I still cant believe anyone would willingly advocate state complicity in murder without being worried that a government would only then be too happy to apply that precedent to its own "undesirable" citizens. Its not only objectionable on moral grounds, but more worringly on the precedent it sets. Just pray you never become an "undesirable" to the government that sees absolutely no problem in being an accomplice to murder. :?

Right, Im outta here on that note.

[northwind]

we have a lot of differing views , and thats what makes life interesting. :lol: there are however also age differences across this forum and i feel as you get older and see more and more things. learn more and more things . then your opinions change.

Definately... Opinions have a way of polarising and hardening over time. My dad's become more and more rabidly left wing over the last decade, it's quite funny to watch sometimes. I've never found truth at an extreme, myself, as boring as it is the best answer is almost always in the middle.

[21QUEST]

Let's just put it this way Lyn 3 deaths in carlisle fairly recently. 2 were comitted by illegal imigrants and 1 by a "legal" immigrant.

..and how many crimes are committed each year by locals?

Cheers
Ben

as a matter of interest in the same period 1 and that was over the border in scotland still local but not in carlisle

so "but out" ben or do some research before replying :P :lol:

Now that made me really :lol: :smt043

Cheers


Ben

I was talking about murder :roll:

Hmm... I think maybe some clarification. It was not the murders I found funny but the bit about doing some research as I thought 'I'm asking you why would I want to research murders in Carlisle '

Me thinks my funny sense of humour. No offence meant :wink:

[the_runt69]

Lyn,
Sorry but they did break the law they landed on British soil with weapons they did not have permits for. Also they were semiautomatic which were banned in britain after Dunblain so you cant quote that little point.
As for teenage mothers they should be made to live with their parents, receive nothing but vochours for their childs welfare and that would stop them just getting up the duff to beat the system. I know a few single mothers who try their hardest for their kids including working two or three jobs round their child care commitments so you are tarring them with the same brush as some of us are with immigrants. Please put your own prejdicies in order before being so hgh and mighty.

H

[lynw]

Lyn,
Sorry but they did break the law they landed on British soil with weapons they did not have permits for. Also they were semiautomatic which were banned in britain after Dunblain so you cant quote that little point.
As for teenage mothers they should be made to live with their parents, receive nothing but vochours for their childs welfare and that would stop them just getting up the duff to beat the system. I know a few single mothers who try their hardest for their kids including working two or three jobs round their child care commitments so you are tarring them with the same brush as some of us are with immigrants. Please put your own prejdicies in order before being so hgh and mighty.

H

Oh FFS. I was going til I saw that crap. So when they were planning their escape from the Talibabn they were supposed to contact the FO and get permits for the weapons ahead of time then? :roll:

And do learn to read properly. I wasnt saying that all teenage mothers are sponging. What I WAS saying, and I dare you to deny this, that they are a LARGE drain on the welfare state. How much money do you think per week gets paid over in child benefit? How many free prescriptions for their kids get allowed? etc etc :roll: Sorry, which part of that did you misunderstand?

The point was made to highlight our own citizens take a fair whack of the benefits, MORE SO than the majority of immigrants that come here and work.

So Id suggest you actually read something properly before you start getting so damn high and mighty yourself. If you think using something as an example makes me prejudiced then you really need to get real. It was an EXAMPLE not a blanket statement or anything else. Merely there to demonstrate the idea immigrants are the biggest burden on the welfare state is ********.

:roll:

[northwind]

And it was all ending so beautifully too :roll:

[amarko5]

And it was all ending so beautifully too :roll:

"ohh no it wasn't " :P

[the_runt69]

Sorry Lyn but all of us with children get child benifitand free prescrptions for our kids not just teenage mothers so you cant put that forward as a drain on resources. ALL people that are unemployed get the same benifit so you should be including them on here as well. Give us the percentage of teenage mothers who are claiming other benifits except what is given to the working mothers and you might stand an argument here.

H

[lynw]

Sorry Lyn but all of us with children get child benifitand free prescrptions for our kids not just teenage mothers so you cant put that forward as a drain on resources. ALL people that are unemployed get the same benifit so you should be including them on here as well. Give us the percentage of teenage mothers who are claiming other benifits except what is given to the working mothers and you might stand an argument here.

H

Ok. The point simply is this:

I picked one example - the rise in teenage pregnancies meaning these single mothers not only have the child benefit, income support [not given to working mothers IIRC unless theyre p/t] but usually also housing allocation and benefit [again not if youre working f/t] and council tax rebates [not if youre working f/t IIRC] which others dont have. Yes the unemployed are in this category too as they claim another chunk as unemployment benefit, jobseekers allowance etc.

I didnt think I had to list every allocation of the welfare budget to the British people. :wink: :P I thought one example would suffice to make the point that our welfare state is consumed predominantly by us. I wasnt saying all teenage mothers are sponging off the state. Just trying to make the point that the level of benefits handed out to British people is higher than that given to immigrants.

Talk about labouring the point :wink: :P :lol:

[Godikus]

Oh FFS. I was going til I saw that crap. So when they were planning their escape from the Talibabn they were supposed to contact the FO and get permits for the weapons ahead of time then? :roll:


it's still breaking a law regardles of their reason...


aaaanyway, it's passed my bed time

[sharriso74]

Just a thought how many safe countries did these people have to fly over to get to the UK? Ask yourself why the UK? Is it because of our wonderful cuisine fair weather and bike friendly roads, or could it be that we're seen as a 'soft touch' for immigration?

The longer ridiculous events like this continue the more resentment will build up among the British populous, thus causing a backlash and a knee jerk reaction to what ever party is in power which would end up penalising genuine (not saying this lot don't have a case) asylum seekers.

[Moo]

Sounds about right. :roll:

[Anonymous]

I'm a bit confused with all this:

These dudes hijacked an aeroplane (which is illegal) but claimed asylum because they were under threat from the Taliban (which is not a totally unreasonable excuse).

NATO invaded Afghanistan on behalf of the UN in October 2001 and kicked out the Taliban (which we all agree is a good thing). Free elections were then held in 2004 and 2005 (even with WOMEN participating!!). NATO troops are still there (operating mainly in the mountains trying to flush out the insurgents) so it's relatively calm in Kabul - or at least, no worse than Amman, Bali, Islamabad, London and various other big cities (we all get bombed these days - nowhere is safe).

Now, various people from all over the world are working in Kabul trying to return it to normal (brave and generous souls). So if these chaps that fled to UK love their birth-country, they'll want to go back and actively help in its continued recovery.

Won't they?

[wyrdness]

Latest from Sky News (quick plug for my employer there!) is that the government is appealing the courts decision:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1221345,00.html?f=rss

[lynw]

The Afghan hijackers took over a Boeing 727 on an internal flight in Afghanistan in February 2000 and forced the crew to fly to Stansted in Essex.

They were fleeing the Taliban regime.

In December 2001 all nine were convicted of hijacking, false imprisonment, possessing firearms with intent to cause fear of violence and possessing explosives.

But in June 2003 their convictions were quashed by the Appeal Court which found they had been acting under duress.

Then a panel of adjudicators ruled in June 2004 that deporting them to Afghanistan would breach their human rights as their lives could still be in danger.

From the article. Summed up pretty succinctly. They were convicted and the appeal court quashed it. The appeal court would have made the decision on FACTS which no-one here has. A professional judgement based on legal facts which Id suggest those who were pretty judgemental last night should at least respect whether you agree or not with it. :wink:

Also note the ruling:

However, Mr Justice Sullivan ruled that the nine could stay in the UK until it was safe for them to return home.

So until they are deemed safe to return home, surely its better to allow them to work and pay taxes and contribute than live on benefits. An independant adjudicator panel would have again decided on facts we dont have about their safety.

Really, if Afghanistan is such a bundle of peace and joy and the Taliban no longer are any force to be reckoned with, WHY are our troops still there?

Id suggest because its not. Because, like Iraq, and Iran soon, its one huge US fck up and the pro allied governments media would have you believe the reality of it being now a happy little democracy is pretty much not the case. Any reading from other sources are quite clear - the Taliban are not a spent force and our troops are going to be there for some considerable time dealing with that little mess. :evil:

[northwind]

Someone said, again, "why did they come here". The pilot suggested the UK, not the hijackers (though like I said, he later denied that in an interview, that's what was in his testimony) He'd flown to Stanstead before and knew the approach.


Really, if Afghanistan is such a bundle of peace and joy and the Taliban no longer are any force to be reckoned with, WHY are our troops still there?


Still getting killed, in fact- the Taliban are a threat to the US and UK armies, killing nearly 50 men this year so far.

[lynw]

So do we accept everyone from every nation who's in danger so long as they can get hold of a gun and a plane full of innocents?

Well obviously its worked hasnt it? I mean how many hijacked planes are we getting to obtain asylum? Hardly like its one a week is it. In fact this is the ONLY instance of this.

And it seems from the previous scandal over Clarke, its hardly like our vetting system has been a great success in preventing criminals in legitimately is it? :roll:

[Jelster]

Right, I've busy all day and missed most of this (and there's far too much to wade through now...) BUT...

Mr Henry, England IS my Country, you may be livining the life of Riley in the sun on the Costa del whatever, but I'm stil here and if people are migrating to MY country I think that I have a right to say as I think....

And yes Lynn we can all get judgemental, but I am willing to stand up and be counted. I don't wnat MY country being populated by people like this. They've broken some pretty serious laws, and who's to say they haven't killed others in their efforts to get on that plane.

I guess you're just the sort of person that welcomes these people with open arms. We have to many waifes, strays and troublemakers that have come here from distant shores, send the f'ers back where they came from... They can rot in one of their jails, not spend money that should be going to British families.....

.

[Spiderman]

Hijackings....Tennage pregancy.....death sentances.....state controlled sterilisation......the foundations of a new criminal island community.........bombings and explosions.....

THIS THREAD IS LIKE A HOLLWOOD MOVIE! ITS GOT IT ALL!!

:smt098

[Biker Biggles]

Can I just say that I would like to see the lunatics take over the asylum seekers.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[lynw]

Right, I've busy all day and missed most of this (and there's far too much to wade through now...) BUT..

Well if youd actually made the effort to read the thread you would realise this:

I guess you're just the sort of person that welcomes these people with open arms. We have to many waifes, strays and troublemakers that have come here from distant shores, send the f'ers back where they came from... They can rot in one of their jails, not spend money that should be going to British families.....

.

is not what Im saying. But thanks for the effort. Guess its just easier to carry on making assumptions without actually bothering to find out the facts. :roll:

Since you need it spelt out to you heres the Janet and John version for you.

1. Im not condoning what they did. Trying to point out NONE of us know what circumstances under the Taliban regime put them into that situation and its not fair to judge on half reported statements or assumptions.
2. Im not particularly advocating they stay. If its safe to deport them and they wont be murdered, then YES they should be deported. And that decision should be reviewed regularly.
3. To KNOWINGLY send ANYONE, no matter how "undesirable" they are to their deaths is complicit in murder. In fact in American law an accessory is as equally as guilty as anyone who actually does it. I take the same view.

It degrades this country into nothing more than a bunch of facists and murderers who have no concept of humanity if we send people knowingly to their deaths. No matter what theyve done, we do not have death sentence.

To actively advocate someones murder is truly shocking. As I pointed out, it makes as guilty as any collaborator of the second world war. They may not have pulled a trigger or released the gas, but they damn well handed over their "undesirables" to the Germans. Its damn well the same principle here.

If we do that it makes us no better than the Taliban or the above. I thought we as a nation were. If that is what this country amounts to - basically a growing level of facism and complete inhumanity whatsoever to any other human being then Im ashamed to be of the same country you are.

[UlsterSV]

Jelster for PM!

And as the old saying goes; Don't unpack, you're going back!

[lynw]

Jelster for PM!

And as the old saying goes; Don't unpack, you're going back!

Oh how original. And constructive.

Lets keep blaming everyone else for our own problems eh? :roll:

[Nick]

These people are a ****ing diseases……….they look at this country run by idiots and think….hey lets go to England, it’s easy, we go there claim asylum coz were being persecuted in our own country….(obviously a popular thing to say) we say…ok come in, here’s a house…oh..You don’t want to work, that’s fine, here’s some money…what the **** is going on……? Born an breed British person, works all their life, pays into a pension which is worth **** all nowadays and gets told tuff luck, now **** off and die you old ****………….!!!.... You do realise that the British person is the minority now…..don’t you……?

Send em all back…………….

[lynw]

And straight from the BNP manifesto comes.....

These people are a f*cking diseases……….they look at this country run by idiots and think….hey lets go to England, it’s easy, we go there claim asylum coz were being persecuted in our own country….(obviously a popular thing to say) we say…ok come in, here’s a house…oh..You don’t want to work, that’s fine, here’s some money…what the f*ck is going on……? Born an breed British person, works all their life, pays into a pension which is worth f*ck all nowadays and gets told tuff luck, now f*ck off and die you old c**t………….!!!.... You do realise that the British person is the minority now…..don’t you……?

Send em all back…………….

FFS. Do some ****ing research and base an opinion on some facts before spouting this ****. Absolutely ******** is the British person is a minority.

You know this thread scares me. This is exactly how Hitler started. Passing out proganda like this and building on peoples ignorance, fear and inability to form an opinion for themself or actually form one based on anything resembling a fact.

What part of THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT PREVENTED THEM FROM WORKING do people misunderstand? You whinge about them being on benefits - they wouldnt have necessarily have been if our government hadnt have done this.

Really constructive idea sending every immigrant back. Clearly you have no idea how much of a positive influence immigration has had on our society. Or you chose to be a hypocrite and say the above while probably tucking in on a Chinese take away.

Oh and where should you go? Germany? Scandanavia? Britanny? Normandy? Youre an immigrant too. Its just how far youd care to go back.

[UlsterSV]

Nick for Deputy PM!

And lynw, nowhere have I ever blamed "anyone else" for the problems in Britain today. I defy you to find and quote a post where I have. And while you're at it, you might want to go away and learn what Fascism actually is. The Doctrine of Fascism is a good place to start.

[Spiderman]

can i suggest everyone calm down a little, i dont want his thread getting locked cos of all the swears, interesting debate please peeps. I'm enjoying reading all the sides of this very deep argument. Thanks.

[Ed]

These people are a f*cking diseases……….they look at this country run by idiots and think….hey lets go to England, it’s easy, we go there claim asylum coz were being persecuted in our own country….(obviously a popular thing to say) we say…ok come in, here’s a house…oh..You don’t want to work, that’s fine, here’s some money…what the f*ck is going on……? Born an breed British person, works all their life, pays into a pension which is worth f*ck all nowadays and gets told tuff luck, now f*ck off and die you old c**t………….!!!.... You do realise that the British person is the minority now…..don’t you……?

Send em all back…………….

Oh dear. This semi-coherent rambling is truly beyond the pail.

What these people did was disgraceful and I have no sympathy wth them. But I'm with LynW on this. There is no justification whatsoever to send anyone back to a certain death, we may as well save the air fare and carry out the death sentence ourselves. If we exercise caution and restraint and lock them up for a long time then the decision should be reviewed so as to enure that we aren't spending £££ unnecessarily. The answer is to stop people coming here in the first place. Not easy when there's an airliner full of people who themselves are in mortal danger.

Perhaps we should simply have shot down the plane? That would have solved the crisis, no?

So we move on to control orders. This is where it gets interesting. This government introduced the Human Rights Act, this government introduced control orders. It was only a few months back that the High Court branded control orders as 'having a thin veneer of legality'. As a political, rather than a social issue, I think that it is ludicrous that the HRA is an automatic response to an attempt to clamp down on terrorists. The government has completely lost its way here, and has only itself to blame.

[lynw]

Nick for Deputy PM!

And lynw, nowhere have I ever blamed "anyone else" for the problems in Britain today. I defy you to find and quote a post where I have. And while you're at it, you might want to go away and learn what Fascism actually is. The Doctrine of Fascism is a good place to start.

Ok shall I quote the "theyre TAKING our jobs" and "FORCING people on the dole" post then? What else was that other than laying the blame on immigrants?

Please do explain what else it was if not that. :roll:

[lynw]

can i suggest everyone calm down a little, i dont want his thread getting locked cos of all the swears, interesting debate please peeps. I'm enjoying reading all the sides of this very deep argument. Thanks.

Sorry Spidey. Its just really frustrating. Its also scaring me how little people really want to find out the reality and how much theyre happy to be spoon fed their opinions or regurgitate what everyone else says without any real thought going into it. :? :(

[Nick]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it **** you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

[Ed]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it p*ss you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

so the answer is to tell everyone on the bus to get off :?:

[UlsterSV]

Nick for Deputy PM!

And lynw, nowhere have I ever blamed "anyone else" for the problems in Britain today. I defy you to find and quote a post where I have. And while you're at it, you might want to go away and learn what Fascism actually is. The Doctrine of Fascism is a good place to start.

Ok shall I quote the "theyre TAKING our jobs" and "FORCING people on the dole" post then? What else was that other than laying the blame on immigrants?

Please do explain what else it was if not that. :roll:

http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=37707&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

See where I say I don't blame them? :roll:

[lynw]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it p*ss you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

With no immigrants, there would be no buses. You forget they tend to do the jobs none of us British people want to do. But dont let that stop you from deriving other scenarios. Though without immigrants they would be severely limited.

And you are presuming it to be the wrong way round. The MAJORITY of immigrants are here to work, to study and improve their lives, to genuinely escape opression and risk of death. Its the MINORITY who you are presuming are the majority. And its like bikers - the minority of us give the rest a bad name. So it is with this. Is that so hard a concept to consider?

Oh and population of UK is 60 million. Your last statement implies there are 31 million immigrants in the country. So not exactly accurate is it?

[skidmarx]

Far to pis*sed to put together a coherent argument, but since when did Britain become Jelsters property? It aint YOUR country...It's the place that you live see?
Anyway.....I'm with Lynn whoeveryouare. Not very constructive I know but this thread is becoming the SVBNP forum....

[lynw]

See where I say I don't blame them? :roll:

Yep about 5 pages after posting that one that did. :roll:

And answer the last question. What else was saying they were forcing people on the dole and taking their jobs if not attributing blame to them? Just because you retracted it when I made that point doesnt mean you didnt post saying you did to start with.

[Nick]

oh well.....better get some bigger buses then

[Nick]

Suggestion……head out of arse….live in the real world…… :wink:

[Ed]

Suggestion……head out of @rse….live in the real world…… :wink:

[-(

[lynw]

Suggestion……head out of @rse….live in the real world…… :wink:

I am. I live in a world where the population is 60 million. Where for your "real world" scenario to be in a minority means 31 million immigrants. Try some maths lessons if youre struggling with that. :wink: :P

Seriously, either that comment hints at underlying racist views that you dont consider coloured British people to be British or you were just spouting something you were told and believed without bothering to actually check whether it was true. Im hoping the latter.

Oh and I live in the real world where I appreciate that the MAJORITY of immigrants have had a positive influence on our country. The minority are giving the whole thing a bad name and yes, should be deported.

But then Ive made an effort to learn about this and see it from an overall picture without basing my opinon on ignorance or fear. I can also see that without immigration this country will fall to pieces - they do vital jobs British people wont do for whatever reason.

But ultimately if you deported all immigrants, I bet youd be first to complain when the services you have got used to arent there any more.

But this isnt about immigration as such. Its about whether we give a license to our government to commit murder or be an accomplice to it.

And if you do, just pray that a few years down the line they dont decide to apply it to British "undesirables". Lets face it, once a government gets away with something, they will extend it and push it to achieve all their aims.

[lynw]

Suggestion……head out of @rse….live in the real world…… :wink:

I am. I live in a world where the population is 60 million. Where for your "real world" scenario to be in a minority means 31 million immigrants. Try some maths lessons if youre struggling with that. :wink: :P

Seriously, either that comment hints at underlying racist views that you dont consider coloured British people to be British or you were just spouting something you were told and believed without bothering to actually check whether it was true. Im hoping the latter.

Oh and I live in the real world where I appreciate that the MAJORITY of immigrants have had a positive influence on our country. The minority are giving the whole thing a bad name and yes, should be deported.

But then Ive made an effort to learn about this and see it from an overall picture without basing my opinon on ignorance or fear. I can also see that without immigration this country will fall to pieces - they do vital jobs British people wont do for whatever reason.

But ultimately if you deported all immigrants, I bet youd be first to complain when the services you have got used to arent there any more.

But this isnt about immigration as such. Its about whether we give a license to our government to commit murder or be an accomplice to it.

And if you do, just pray that a few years down the line they dont decide to apply it to British "undesirables". Lets face it, once a government gets away with something, they will extend it and push it to achieve all their aims.

[UlsterSV]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it p*ss you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

With no immigrants, there would be no buses. You forget they tend to do the jobs none of us British people want to do. But dont let that stop you from deriving other scenarios. Though without immigrants they would be severely limited.

It's just a shame you're too lazy to help your fellow countryman, to give him a hand up and make him proud to drive a bus and keep one of the most important services in Britain going. It's just a shame you'd rather **** your fellow countryman over by bringing in foreign labour and effectively putting the interests of foreigners over the interests of your fellow countryman. It's just a shame you couldn't care less about the people whose ancestors made your country great. Is this what their blood, sweat and tears was for? When our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers were off fighting and dying in all the hell holes of the world is this the kind of nation they envisaged they were fighting for? Did they fight and die so that their children would be proud and prosper in a country that would look after them, or did they fight so that people like you could turn round to their children and have the brass neck to tell them people from thousands of miles away who hijack aeroplanes and inflict pain and terror are an asset to this nation?

If we didn't need immigrants to send to fight in the trenches of the Somme, we sure as hell don't need them to drive our buses.

[Beaniebike]

Is there an echo in here...? :D

[Beaniebike]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it p*ss you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

With no immigrants, there would be no buses. You forget they tend to do the jobs none of us British people want to do. But dont let that stop you from deriving other scenarios. Though without immigrants they would be severely limited.

It's just a shame you're too lazy to help your fellow countryman, to give him a hand up and make him proud to drive a bus and keep one of the most important services in Britain going. It's just a shame you'd rather f*ck your fellow countryman over by bringing in foreign labour and effectively putting the interests of foreigners over the interests of your fellow countryman. It's just a shame you couldn't care less about the people whose ancestors made your country great. Is this what their blood, sweat and tears was for? When our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers were off fighting and dying in all the hell holes of the world is this the kind of nation they envisaged they were fighting for? Did they fight and die so that their children would be proud and prosper in a country that would look after them, or did they fight so that people like you could turn round to their children and have the brass neck to tell them people from thousands of miles away who hijack aeroplanes and inflict pain and terror are an asset to this nation?

If we didn't need immigrants to send to fight in the trenches of the Somme, we sure as hell don't need them to drive our buses.

I don't claim to know very much about the History behond the world wars that this country was involved in. However, I think you will find that, certainly, in WW2, we had a fair few "immigrant" types fighting with us. The Gurkas (sp?) for one...

And, tbh, we're actually ALL immigrants in this country. Vikings, Normans etc...

[lynw]

It's just a shame you're too lazy to help your fellow countryman, to give him a hand up and make him proud to drive a bus and keep one of the most important services in Britain going. It's just a shame you'd rather f*ck your fellow countryman over by bringing in foreign labour and effectively putting the interests of foreigners over the interests of your fellow countryman. It's just a shame you couldn't care less about the people whose ancestors made your country great. Is this what their blood, sweat and tears was for? When our fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers were off fighting and dying in all the hell holes of the world is this the kind of nation they envisaged they were fighting for? Did they fight and die so that their children would be proud and prosper in a country that would look after them, or did they fight so that people like you could turn round to their children and have the brass neck to tell them people from thousands of miles away who hijack aeroplanes and inflict pain and terror are an asset to this nation?

Oh dear is that the best you can do? How about £8.5 million in additional revenue to the treasury to fund all these single mothers on child benefit that dont work then? I think Ive helped more than you clearly do.

No but seriously though, Im starting to realise Im going to have to dumb this down for you. What part of its not about the immigration issue do you not understand?
My argument is knowingly letting the government act as an accomplice to murder.

If we didn't need immigrants to send to fight in the trenches of the Somme, we sure as hell don't need them to drive our buses.

Oh dear. Oh deary deary me.

Not heard of Gallipoli then? World War I might give you a clue that it wasnt confined to Germany, France and England. Id suggest if you want to prove a point you get your facts right first.

Id also suggest before you start on this one you actually bother to read about the war. I think you'll find a lot of Commonwealth countries participated on our behalf, sacrificing their citizens for our cause. Those countries that have since been allowed to send their citizens here as immigrants. Those countries in our Empire days we pretty much plundered and enslaved. Id say we have some obligation to them really.

[Jelster]

Oh FFS Lynn...

Somebody would always do the jobs because if it's not those that can't speak English it would be the less educated ones that could.... That's real world....

The point is, when migrants come to this country we welcome them all with open arms, and then when we do find that they are not suitable because of the type of people they are, why do people like you get on your high horse and stand up for them ??

THEY ARE CRIMINALS. They held people at gun point and terrorised the crew and passengers of a jet with explosives. They MADE the crew of that jet fly them out here, nobody stood up for the crew did they....

If we are to let migrants into this country then lets make sure they will add value to it. You can't emigrate to a number of countries unless you have skills that they need, maybe we should have a similar system here. We've already got enough lazy, god for nothings of our own, we don't need other peoples !!


My father fought for this Country for the good of the British people and so we could keep a British way of life. Not so any scummy **** can come over here and take advantage of (what was) a very decent country...

You're going to tell me next that Hitler wasn't evil, he was just misunderstood.....

.

[Jelster]

I think you'll find a lot of Commonwealth countries participated on our behalf, sacrificing their citizens for our cause. Those countries that have since been allowed to send their citizens here.

Since when has Afgahnistan been part of the "Commonwealth" ??

.

[skidmarx]

crikey....I thought we were better than that Ulstersv...I thought Britain was all about looking forward and embracing change, leading by example, I thought the lessons from the last century had been hard won but valued, your politics of nationhood and pride are outdated in a globalised world, you speak the same message of fundamentalism as the people you cite as a problem and where is that going to get you?

[Godikus]

consider this....if you were sat on a bus late at night and a young girl wanted to get on for free because she was in fear of her life I would hope you would happily let her ride for free, however….if an freeloader wanted to get on and enjoy the ride, as a paying customer wouldn’t it p*ss you off?.......unfortunately this is what’s happening to our country……there are a few genuine people that are being persecuted in their country….but there hundreds and thousands of freeloaders trying to get on our full bus…………..

and I don’t like Chinese food…………..

With no immigrants, there would be no buses. You forget they tend to do the jobs none of us British people want to do. But dont let that stop you from deriving other scenarios. Though without immigrants they would be severely limited.

And you are presuming it to be the wrong way round. The MAJORITY of immigrants are here to work, to study and improve their lives, to genuinely escape opression and risk of death.

so not only is my brother now an immigrant, but all these poor immigrants that have spent all there time studying get lumberd with being bus drivers. poor guys.

My brother also loves being a bus driver. it's not something none of us want to do, there is no such thing.



As bikers we accept that everytime we go for a spin there is a chance that it could be our last. As terrorists they accept that every plain they hijack could be htere last, and i'm sure they had one hell of a final ride, but i do think we have to send the message out that not every knob with a gun can put peoples lives in danger to get a free ride. these 9 need to go back. <thats a full stop (and that was my closing argument... for now :wink: )

[UlsterSV]

If we didn't need immigrants to send to fight in the trenches of the Somme, we sure as hell don't need them to drive our buses.

Oh dear. Oh deary deary me.

Not heard of Gallipoli then? World War I might give you a clue that it wasnt confined to Germany, France and England. Id suggest if you want to prove a point you get your facts right first.

Id also suggest before you start on this one you actually bother to read about the war. I think you'll find a lot of Commonwealth countries participated on our behalf, sacrificing their citizens for our cause. Those countries that have since been allowed to send their citizens here as immigrants. Those countries in our Empire days we pretty much plundered and enslaved. Id say we have some obligation to them really.

That would have been a very smart post, had there not been a difference between being part of the Commonwealth and being an immigrant living in Britain.

Oh deary deary me indeed.

[lynw]

Oh FFS Lynn...

THEY ARE CRIMINALS. They held people at gun point and terrorised the crew and passengers of a jet with explosives. They MADE the crew of that jet fly them out here, nobody stood up for the crew did they....

You know, now youre onto a legal precedent thing again. Our justice system says they arent. So are you now going to override that one? The judges ruled they were under duress - based on facts neither you nor I have access to.

You know I find it shocking you have no understanding for what makes people act so desperately. Its a really good job you live and raise your family here and not there. I wonder if the Taliban had threatened to kill your children you'd be acting so high and mighty?

You're going to tell me next that Hitler wasn't eveil, he was just misunderstood......

Not a chance. It doesnt seem youre reading my posts properly. Clearly Janet & John level was beyond you.

Basically the British government represents you. By saying its ok to knowingly send people back to their death when our legal system found that punishment abhorrent is not only double standards but pure murder. Are you saying you wish to be considered a murderer, with absolutely no humanity whatsoever, compassion or forgiveness or understanding? Because if that sums you up, and the nation, we're in trouble. Big trouble. And its only a matter of time til the next Hitler exploits that.

Because not giving a toss about another human being is how Hitler got away with what he did. Because people didnt care, because they saw it so black and white. You are demonstrating the worst of what is wrong with our society. No-one gives a toss about anyone else - so all this Im looking out for my fellow countryman is utter ********. This society is all about looking after themselves. And thats whats really abhorrent - because you dont see it. You dont see the selfishness, the inhumanity and the really dire consequences of where thats heading if we all do it.

[BILLY]

Oh FFS Lynn...

Somebody would always do the jobs because if it's not those that can't speak English it would be the less educated ones that could.... That's real world....

The point is, when migrants come to this country we welcome them all with open arms, and then when we do find that they are not suitable because of the type of people they are, why do people like you get on your high horse and stand up for them ??

THEY ARE CRIMINALS. They held people at gun point and terrorised the crew and passengers of a jet with explosives. They MADE the crew of that jet fly them out here, nobody stood up for the crew did they....

If we are to let migrants into this country then lets make sure they will add value to it. You can't emigrate to a number of countries unless you have skills that they need, maybe we should have a similar system here. We've already got enough lazy, god for nothings of our own, we don't need other peoples !!


My father fought for this Country for the good of the British people and so we could keep a British way of life. Not so any scummy **** can come over here and take advantage of (what was) a very decent country...

You're going to tell me next that Hitler wasn't evil, he was just misunderstood.....

. my farther and grand farther both fought for this country too!!! To make it a better place to live was it worth it they gave there live's for what?????????

[Peter Henry]

Jelster wrote:
My father fought for this Country for the good of the British people and so we could keep a British way of life.

And so what of the scum like individuals that have been spawned from good old Anglo saxon blood following the sacrifices made by your Father and his generation Steve? Your Father and his brothers in arms fought so that the low lifes that are around today could come to be?

I really do think that there is an under current of anti foreigner and a colour thing with you which having met you I do find very surprising indeed. :?

[lynw]

That would have been a very smart post, had there not been a difference between being part of the Commonwealth and being an immigrant living in Britain.

Oh deary deary me indeed.

Lol. If youre going to try to be smart, it helps if you have the intelligence to do it. You clearly dont, so quit while youre behind ok?

Define immigrant. Its someone who emmigrates to this country regardless of where theyre from - be it a commonwealth country or not.

So, the families of immigrants to this country from Commonwealth Countries quite probalby fought for us in WWI & WWII. So they weren't immigrants then wtf has that got to do with anything?. Thats a pathetic point. Their children and grandchildren are our societys immigrants. I think thats a fair price for the sacrifices that these people made on our behalf.

[skidmarx]

Lynn wrote:

Because not giving a toss about another human being is how Hitler got away with what he did. Because people didnt care, because they saw it so black and white. You are demonstrating the worst of what is wrong with our society. No-one gives a toss about anyone else - so all this Im looking out for my fellow countryman is utter ********. This society is all about looking after themselves. And thats whats really abhorrent - because you dont see it. You dont see the selfishness, the inhumanity and the really dire consequences of where thats heading if we all do it.

THANKYOU!

[UlsterSV]

That would have been a very smart post, had there not been a difference between being part of the Commonwealth and being an immigrant living in Britain.

Oh deary deary me indeed.

Lol. If youre going to try to be smart, it helps if you have the intelligence to do it. You clearly dont, so quit while youre behind ok?

Define immigrant. Its someone who emmigrates to this country regardless of where theyre from - be it a commonwealth country or not.

So, the families of immigrants to this country from Commonwealth Countries quite probalby fought for us in WWI & WWII. So they weren't immigrants then wtf has that got to do with anything?. Thats a pathetic point. Their children and grandchildren are our societys immigrants. I think thats a fair price for the sacrifices that these people made on our behalf.

Quite probably? For someone who likes to preach about knowing the facts, 'quite probably' isn't too definite, is it?

The point I was making was that if we could get our young men and women to fight a world war, I'm sure we could get them to drive buses and bin lorries and all the other jobs vital to the running of a prosperous country.

[Jelster]

Maybe my tolerance level has reached a point where I just look at the Government and say "why" ???

You make a great big thing about migrants doing "the jobs nobody else wants to do".. So are you saying that British people don't want to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants etc..... Because they don't ONLY do the crap jobs....

And I'm not closing my eyes to what "may" (and notice I did say "may" have driven them to it, but I ask again.... Why this Country and not one of our European cousins ?

Because they know they'll get away with it. Britain is a great mix of all sorts of people, most of who add value to the Country. However, one of the downsides of having such a relaxed approach to immigrants is that you leave te door open to those that will take advantage of the system.

Do you not think that the Country is nearing breaking point and that maybe we should be more controlled over who we let in and who we don't ? Because if we continue to take you're attitude we won't have to worry about global warming and rising seas, Our little island would have sank under the weight, both economically and physically !!!

.

[skidmarx]

In what world does driving the bus and emptying the bins get into the same stream of consciousness as a war? Now I see where your coming from....nowhere.....

[Jelster]

I really do think that there is an under current of anti foreigner and a colour thing with you which having met you I do find very surprising indeed. :?

Not at all, but maybe it's about time we became a little more chosey about who we let "come on board"..... Chatting to a delightful French lady last night, her comments about how many people are in this "tiny" country really hit home. She is married to an Engishman and has every right to be here. My Grandfather was French, I have dated black women and have a black man as a brother-in-law who I welcome into my house whenever I see him...

There's no racism here Peter, just concern for my home ground.....

.

[lynw]

Quite probably? For someone who likes to preach about knowing the facts, 'quite probably' isn't too definite, is it?

The point I was making was that if we could get our young men and women to fight a world war, I'm sure we could get them to drive buses and bin lorries and all the other jobs vital to the running of a prosperous country.

Ulstersv in being picky with how I word things non-shocker. Really if you cant come back with anything other than that, just dont bother.

However, the last bit makes up for that. :wink: :P

You have to remember back then the culture of society was different. People believed the government and went off to fight because it was their duty. Without questioning the wisdom of the military "geniuses" who were in command and led to the wholesale slaughter that we associate with WWI. It also meant our society was such people automatically worked hard and done their best to find work. I dont see anyone these days doing another Jarrow march do you?

Nowadays, its easy street for people. They dont want to work hard. They want handouts rather than actually do some of these jobs. That Im in agreement with you on - its that problem with our current society that needs to be addressed.

I know a few years back as part of the governments stupid* drive to have a workforce representative of the ethnic population, Customs had a problem recruiting from the local Hindu community. When asked why, they didnt deem a civil service job good enough for their children.

THATS whats inherently wrong. Most immigrants want to improve their lot and work bloody hard to and instil that in their children. They aspire to good careers - law, medicine, accountancy particularly. Whereas British people seem to have lost that. My fundamental problem is that again its the easy option for them - they look to blame immigrants for the problem when ultimately its the lack of their efforts that really are to blame.

Obviously thats applying a general stereotype and not applicable to all cases - some people genuinely want to work but can not find a suitable job for their skills. But a fair proportion of our benefits system are going to people who are better off, and have become accustomed to that, by not working.

Again something I would have no hestitation in agreeing with you needs to be changed.

Still, the threads getting my post count up any rate. :twisted:

*edit: while Im not racist/prejudiced I disagree with any form of positive discrimination be it over race/gender etc

[lynf]

I am new to this.......

Can see both sides of the argument BUT Lynw seems to stamp on her opposition as if HERS is the ONLY one that counts!!!! Everyone has an opinion that is what forums are for.

Lynw is the winner for the most self-opinionated poster to this discussion. :shock:

[lynw]

Maybe my tolerance level has reached a point where I just look at the Government and say "why" ???

I can understand that. Really. But I find it sad that you only see it that way.

You make a great big thing about migrants doing "the jobs nobody else wants to do".. So are you saying that British people don't want to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants etc..... Because they don't ONLY do the crap jobs....

addressed in reply above to ulstersv. Their kids grow up with predominantly a hard work ethic - it seems thats lacking in British families and British families tend not to "push" their kids into a career.

And I'm not closing my eyes to what "may" (and notice I did say "may" have driven them to it, but I ask again.... Why this Country and not one of our European cousins ? Northwind mentioned this. Apparently the pilot suggested it - but later retracted saying he did.

Do you not think that the Country is nearing breaking point and that maybe we should be more controlled over who we let in and who we don't ? Because if we continue to take you're attitude we won't have to worry about global warming and rising seas, Our little island would have sank under the weight, both economically and physically !!!

No. I dont think its half as bad as people make out. Yes I truly do believe we need reforms in our welfare system. I wont argue that, we all know its not working.

But I dont see immigration in a negative light in the first place. I also see the positive contributions daily where I work.

I think the media is largely to blame. Here is 9 people whom have generated arguments over so many issues. But as Ed says, 9 more isnt going to hurt. What hasnt helped is having barred them from working the Home Office stalled for years over a decision. Thats also wrong.

But I also think the media portray the minority who do abuse the system in such a way it leaves people with the impression we're at breaking point. I dont really think we are - we lose a lot of people per annum as expatriates. But that never gets factored into the media calculations of x hundred immigrants arrive here.

I understand why people think like this. I just feel the media has a lot of responisibility for it and the reality isnt as bad as you make out. :D

[lynw]

I am new to this.......

Can see both sides of the argument BUT Lynw seems to stamp on her opposition as if HERS is the ONLY one that counts!!!! Everyone has an opinion that is what forums are for.

Lynw is the winner for the most self-opinionated poster to this discussion. :shock:

Yes you are new to this. When I reply, thats what Im doing. Replying to a point someone has raised, just like this. If it comes across like that, not meant to. But are you now saying Im not entitled to reply?

Oh and while youre at it, self-opinionated. If not my opinion, who elses am I supposed to be replying with? :roll:

[lynf]

You are not entitled to stamp down on people and remark as if they are being stupid, they are also entitled to their opinion right or wrong.

By the way anybody tell you you have a snotty attidude!!! (or so it appears)

When I say new to this I mean new to this forum. I have a life as well as forums on the internet but feel that you have nothing to do but argue the toss on here!!! Sad really but at least your helping to get my post count up :!: :!: :!: :D :D

[lynw]

You are not entitled to stamp down on people and remark as if they are being stupid, they are also entitled to their opinion right or wrong.

And you are not entitled to tell me what I can and can not do.

By the way anybody tell you you have a snotty attidude!!! (or so it appears)

Nice to see you judge me on one thread. Shall I be that shallow too and judge you on 2 posts? Because youre not doing too badly in snotty attitude too.

Seriously though. I believe strongly in this issue. Sorry if that makes me opinionated.

and lynf. no profile filled in, no intro post, says alias to me.

When I say new to this I mean new to this forum. I have a life as well as forums on the internet but feel that you have nothing to do but argue the toss on here!!! Sad really but at least your helping to get my post count up :!: :!: :!: :D :D

Well, go live your life then. Dont be a hypocrite by criticising people for posting on a forum at night when thats exactly what youre doing. Tonight Im chosing to do this because it is interesting.

End of the day, youre not going to do too well if you take internet forums too seriously. No matter what differences or how heated things get, this is where they stay. I dont carry it over to real life - Ill happily shout Jelster a coffee at Soho if hes there when I am. Because this is like a pub conversation. Even Daimo, and Ulstersv. In fact that would be one hell of an all night drinking session talking politics with him. :lol:

[lynf]

Alias! No just that I haven't got time to fill in a profile etc. Like I said I have a life!



Read the contents of the brackets :!:

I am a single mum on benefits not through choice, but I am not a teenager. I agree that Government reform of the benefit systems and immigration laws need a good overhaul. But like you, I have an opinion but it doesn't mean that we have to agree with other forum users, but seems your ok at putting the arguement over but you don't like it when you are under fire!!!


I dont take this seriously, just a bit of light entertainment at bed time. :P :P

[Speedy]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions,whether someone else agrees/disagrees.

my opinion on this 'Hi-Jacking',is simple....DEPORT THEM.
What if:

You(Not you lynf or anyone in particular,but hypothetically speaking)were a passenger on that plane and had a gun in your face,thinking you could be shot,used as a hostage,or killed in plane crash as a result of these people!?

OR

You had a friend/family member in that position!?

They could have killed SO many innocent people in one way or another,because they wanted to leave their country.

They could have left,either legally,or without putting many innocent lives in harms way. They chose an illegal and careless way. SELFISH I think!

Bear in mind,that if that plane had crashed,because of them,it's not just the people on it that die,what about if it landed on a school or residential area!?

This country is too soft,they have no rite to be here......especially after doing something as wreck-less and lawless as hi-jacking an aircraft at gun-point,and armed with explosives.

I can see the potential for ALOT of trouble happening in this country,if things like this continue and the Criminals who commit acts of crime/terrorism whatever you want to call it go un-punished.

The people who cry "Let them in to Britain!" I fear will be eating their words.

But thats my opinion.....not meant to offend anyone,sorry if it does!

[lynw]

Alias! No just that I haven't got time to fill in a profile etc. Like I said I have a life!

Yet youre still here... still posting.... :P :lol:

I am a single mum on benefits not through choice, but I am not a teenager. I agree that Government reform of the benefit systems and immigration laws need a good overhaul. But like you, I have an opinion but it doesn't mean that we have to agree with other forum users, but seems your ok at putting the arguement over but you don't like it when you are under fire!!!

Ok, perhaps what I object to is this forum as someone else called it earlier in the thread being turned into the SVBNP forum. This is a good place, but in this thread people have openly advocated particpating in a human beings murder to be acceptable. If you've actually read all 12 pages you'll have seen some pretty extreme views.

I guess when it comes to this I wont stand down. This is important. Because if peoples views arent challenged it gains more and more momentum. And becomes a bigger problem. Most other issues Ill argue to a point but when its done Ill stop. But this has covered so many issues and had some real crap posted that I feel strongly enough atm to argue the point.

You may not think issues are worth standing up for. I do. This is one of them. But like I said, I may have expressed my opinion forthrightly but I stand by it. And equally I stand by the fact that few people really have done any research or reading into immigration and the history of this country. It frustrates me to see so many otherwise intelligent people just posting something like its been lifted out the sun editorial. That the opinion is only based on the selective media reporting we get.

I dont take this seriously, just a bit of light entertainment at bed time. :P :P

:lol:

Hey, I may have let my frustration get the better of me and put things over too strongly at times. And I may feel this is really important but only atm. But next week it will be done and dusted and the people Im arguing against tonight may well be agreeing with me on another issue. So atm, yes I will object to this forum being turned into an anti-immigration slanging match without trying to balance that up.

But when alls said and done, its not personal. Anyone who takes it such should know better :wink: :P . If they have a problem with me personally, Im happy to resolve it and discuss it by pm. :D Otherwise anyone taken offence, I apologise. It wasnt meant. Just me being blunt and to the point at times and probably not being as tactful as I should. :oops:

[Anonymous]

As an academic point, and without daring to express any opinion about almost anything anywhere ever, we have obviously sent one or two "illegals" back to their own lands over, say, the last five years. Is there any evidence that any were actually killed by the State when they were returned (other than, say, executed after fair trial, that is)?

(Usual disclaimers to protect myself: ie I'm old, have a stick, I'm blind, never was a single parent, have immigrant blood, own a Honda, support Fulham, lived in Ruislip once etc etc)

[kitten]

(Usual disclaimers to protect myself: ie I'm old, have a stick, I'm blind, never was a single parent, have immigrant blood, own a Honda, support Fulham, lived in Ruislip once etc etc)

this bit rocks,
erm ok, I've stayed pretty much out of this one so far but I dont think its a cool headed debate and maybe you ll could do with a nice calming shower, after all its all getting rather personal now isnt it?

I dont have any majorly strong opinions regarding immigrants etc. But I feel that all should be welcome to theres, saying that there is no space for violence within my opinion and I can see exactly what lyn w is saying, as she has just as valid an opinion as anyone else, she has just as much right to defend and explain it as anyone else!
my 2pence
:cat:

[lynw]

As an academic point, and without daring to express any opinion about almost anything anywhere ever, we have obviously sent one or two "illegals" back to their own lands over, say, the last five years. Is there any evidence that any were actually killed by the State when they were returned (other than, say, executed after fair trial, that is)?

(Usual disclaimers to protect myself: ie I'm old, have a stick, I'm blind, never was a single parent, have immigrant blood, own a Honda, support Fulham, lived in Ruislip once etc etc)


http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration1.html makes interesting reading.

Iraq is the top deportation country, followed by Serbia, Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan. For the last quarter 2005. With a whopping 3525 deportations. And 6125 applications. So for those that come, we seem to be deporting more than 50%.

Im digging around to find that information but not sure if thats something the home office would actually have. After all the state government is unlikely to admit to killing them on asking really. :?

Edit: going to dig around the Amnesty site. Im sure they will have that info.

Edit: More reading here (http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/index.php?location=election&link=Asylum02.htm) Link to stopthebnp.org.uk.

[amarko5]

from your own provided statistics Lyn there are on average 120,000 per year and in 5 years that makes 600,000

quite a sizable increase this was taken from the first link contol of imigration statistics 2004 grants of settlement.

now i know this includes a lot of things and is rather broad but god almighty every 5 years an extra 600,000 people over here :shock:

won't be long until mr jelster is correct and this island of ours sinks beneath the waves :lol:

[lynw]

from your own provided statistics Lyn there are on average 120,000 per year and in 5 years that makes 600,000

quite a sizable increase this was taken from the first link contol of imigration statistics 2004 grants of settlement.

now i know this includes a lot of things and is rather broad but god almighty every 5 years an extra 600,000 people over here :shock:

won't be long until my jelter is correct and this island of ours sinks beneath the waves :lol:

In reality, based on home office stats, for 2005:

Actual applications: 25715
Deportations: 15055 = 58.5% of applicants are refused and deported.

Number allowed to stay = 10660
@ 5 years = 53,300.

Im only half a million people out from you. But Ive used the yearly figures for 2005 btw. The figures in previous post were quarterly btw. :wink: :lol:

Oh and you'll also find there on the home office site the statistic that of the 60 million population, 4.5 million are immigrants or born overseas. Thats a whopping 8% of the population. Less than 1 in 10.

Hardly what Id call breaking point Jelster, certainly not swamped and sinking amarko :wink: , and certainly not supporting the British being a minority Nick.

Thats what Ive been trying to get across. What you get in the media blows certain cases out of proportion and sadly people are far too willing to accept what theyre told and that its a huge problem when the reality is really really not the case.

Also bear in mind that of the 10660 allowed last year, the majority will be contributing. So the sponging immigrants are an even smaller number of that. Again next time anyone needs to sound off on this being a huge problem, just consider these figures and that the home office stats really dont support it.

:P :D

[amarko5]

from your own provided statistics Lyn there are on average 120,000 per year and in 5 years that makes 600,000

quite a sizable increase this was taken from the first link contol of imigration statistics 2004 grants of settlement.

now i know this includes a lot of things and is rather broad but god almighty every 5 years an extra 600,000 people over here :shock:

won't be long until my jelter is correct and this island of ours sinks beneath the waves :lol:

In reality, based on home office stats, for 2005:

Actual applications: 25715
Deportations: 15055 = 58.5% of applicants are refused and deported.

Number allowed to stay = 10660
@ 5 years = 53,300.

Im only half a million people out from you. But Ive used the yearly figures for 2005 btw. The figures in previous post were quarterly btw. :wink: :lol:

Oh and you'll also find there on the home office site the statistic that of the 60 million population, 4.5 million are immigrants or born overseas. Thats a whopping 8% of the population. Less than 1 in 10.

Hardly what Id call breaking point Jelster, certainly not swamped and sinking amarko :wink: , and certainly not supporting the British being a minority Nick.

Thats what Ive been trying to get across. What you get in the media blows certain cases out of proportion and sadly people are far too willing to accept what theyre told and that its a huge problem when the reality is really really not the case.

Also bear in mind that of the 10660 allowed last year, the majority will be contributing. So the sponging immigrants are an even smaller number of that. Again next time anyone needs to sound off on this being a huge problem, just consider these figures and that the home office stats really dont support it.

:P :D

Gee Lyn you like to be very selective in picking the stats that support your argument go read the very first page of the document i quoted, it shows (BROADLY) the years 2000 to 2004 inclusive and you will see that if you add them up then you will be a darn site closer to the 600000 i quoted .

what shocks me is the amount of family in those figures. :shock:

[lynw]

Gee Lyn you like to be very selective in picking the stats that support your argument go read the very first page of the document i quoted, it shows (BROADLY) the years 2000 to 2004 inclusive and you will see that if you add them up then you will be a darn site closer to the 600000 i quoted .

what shocks me is the amount of family in those figures. :shock:

hmmmm can I not suggest the same of you? That you've picked the stats to prove your point of view as I have to prove mine? :P :lol:

But surely then thats a good thing isnt it? That is dropped considerably from 04 - 05? :P

[Spiderman]

Ive said it before and i'll say it again. And again.

Statistics prove, that statistics can prove anything you want them to prove.


so dont go arguing over whos stats are the right stats please peeps. thats a more circular argument than this thread is becoming.

[sharriso74]

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

[northwind]

Couple of general points on the whole immigration thing though...The economic benefit of immigration since 1945 is still rated by FT and a panel of independant economists to be more than the cost of immigration to the taxpayer- that's income taxes and NI paid alone, not VAT or the inevitable benefit on the economy.

Second, is that we're not going to "sink beneath the waves"- in fact, the UK's internal population growth is on a downward trend. We're facing a potential crisis with the number of retired people growing, but the number of people of working age remaining static or declining. One of the solutions is to inrease the retirement age was past where it is now, 75 is a commonly dropped figure. Another is to abolish the state pension. A third is to increase taxes. But another is to raise the number of people who're working.

[Foey]

But another is to raise the number of people who're working.



Surely they could do this by making the unemployed already in this country work rather than allow a lot more in, ok i know some people are unable to work which is fair enough but there are a hell of a lot of people drawing benefits that plainly & simply don't want to work.

[northwind]

You make a great big thing about migrants doing "the jobs nobody else wants to do".. So are you saying that British people don't want to be doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants etc.....

If this is a poke at immigrant doctors, nurses, etc, this is a different situation. It's easy to say immigrants take the jobs we don't want, and it's partly true, but they also take the jobs we can't fill. Polish plumbers, for instance. We're talking about people with skills or qualifications that take time to aquire, so bringing in qualified people from abroad is a good approach- obviously we should be training people to fill the gap, and encouraging people to go into that line of work, but taking doctors as an example, it takes time to train a GP. It's all very well to say we should fill the gaps from within, but that's no use for the 5 years that it takes to train the person to fill it (and to be qualified but not experienced).

And I'm pretty sure the people who complain loudest about foreign doctors are the same people that complain loudest about waiting lists, or waiting 3 days to see their GP, or not being able to find an NHS dentist.

[Jelster]

I'm not complaining about foriegn doctors, just trying to add weight to the other side of the argument. I think Lynn wants us to beileive that migrants only do crap jobs, which isn't true. I've yet to come across a plumber that isn't British..... And from what friends in the trade tell me, generally, the standard of work from Eastern European migrants in the building/plumbing/electric trades is pretty poor.

.

[northwind]

Surely they could do this by making the unemployed already in this country work rather than allow a lot more in, ok i know some people are unable to work which is fair enough but there are a hell of a lot of people drawing benefits that plainly & simply don't want to work.

Yup... But here's the thing. How do you force people to work, and have them do it well?

UK unemployment currently stands at just over 5% by independant accounting- but that includes those who can't work, ie the sick or unemployable. This is extremely low- although that doesn't make it any better if you're seeking work of course. Our median age is now 40, which is higher than it's ever been, and the population's growing at just .28% internally. Even if you get 2/5 of those into employment- a staggeringly hard task, by the way- that's not enough to redress the balance of worker/non-worker. It turns things back a little, but not far enough.