View Full Version : Questions asked over terror raid......
akbarhussain
12-06-06, 02:25 PM
Seriously, if anyone (let alone the Ricin guys) can make a dirty bomb with the affect of Chernoble, then theyr'e gonna be winning the Nobel prize for physics.
This is mentioned in the link I referenced.
PH Wrote:
Chief....Waste my time with you via a pm? You obviously think you rate highly enough for me to consider such an action? Now that is humour! Nice one! Wink
You've taken chuncks out of very fishy bate all afternoon so thought i'd extend you the invitation thats all :wink:
***Steve***
12-06-06, 02:32 PM
Nobody's suggesting another Chernobyl, but a few well placed db could take out a reasonable slice of the City and even if it wouldn't kill anyone the damage to stock markets could affect us all.
Anyway, in summary db's are all propaganda and no trousers. Apart from the building bit anyway .....obviously :D
akbarhussain
12-06-06, 02:33 PM
Anyway, in summary db's are all propaganda and no trousers. Apart from the building bit anyway .....obviously
Well summarised :wink:
diamond
12-06-06, 02:38 PM
Nobody's suggesting another Chernobyl, but a few well placed db could take out a reasonable slice of the City and even if it wouldn't kill anyone the damage to stock markets could affect us all.
As the U.S. National Regulatory Commission says "A dirty bomb is in no way similar to a nuclear weapon. The presumed purpose of its use would be therefore not as a Weapon of Mass Destruction but rather as a Weapon of Mass Disruption.
Peter Henry
12-06-06, 02:39 PM
Chief...If that was bait and those were chunks....ha ha....a funny guy indeed! :P
I thank you 8) - You were still incorrect though.
wow! I go do something for an hour or so and theres 4 more pages.
Swiss, you say no smoke without fire. Now how about if I was a peed off neighbour and I reported you for drug dealing. Numerous times, faking a diary of visitors to your house being "drops" etc etc. On your principle youre guilty and should have armed police kick your door in at 6am until you can prove your innocence. :wink:
For all we know, the "intel" may well have come from a. fundamentalists who wanted to provoke outrage at the police or b. [and imho most likely] someone peed off with the two brothers and knew being muslims and the mention of terrorism would produce a knee jerk response from the police.
Is the threat real? Yes. But I think its also overhyped. Though imho, we have more risk of Dungeness power station falling in the sea and turning into a Chernobyl than a dirty bomb. Dirty bombs arent as effective as people would believe. The Sarin bomb in Tokyo is a case in point - only 12 people actually died from that. Conventional explosives are the real risk still because theyre easier to manufacture undetected, easier to use and if made properly can kill more people than placing Sarin cannisters on the tube if you want 2 real life comparisons.
akbarhussain
12-06-06, 04:05 PM
Is the threat real? Yes. But I think its also overhyped.
Hi lynw..... in what way and why do you think the therat is overhyped?
Is the threat real? Yes. But I think its also overhyped.
Hi lynw..... in what way and why do you think the therat is overhyped?
I think in particular the way some papers report it. Depends on the paper, the broadsheets tend to be more down to earth with the tabloids doing their usual over-sensationalism.
I just think the risk is no higher than it ever was with the IRA, in fact Id say that was more of a risk back then because the IRA had consistent funding, stores of weaponry, and could mount a consistent campaign. The muslim extremists here are a real minority and I dont think particularly well linked or organised as the IRA ever were.
I speak as someone who commuted through the 80s, missed the IRA bombing of Victoria by 15 mins and was in London last July. During the 80s it was not uncommon to get to a major station to have it closed due to a bomb scare - thats been extremely uncommon since last July tbh. Its because of the IRA bomb in Victoria no mainline station has rubbish bins anymore. I heard the Natwest tower bomb in my house in Croydon. I remember the Hyde Park bombs. The sheer carnage of that with the nail bombs and the horses will always stay with me.
People who dont remember these things will not see the current threat in the same perspective though.
akbarhussain
12-06-06, 04:33 PM
Some good points there Lynw, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Is the threat real? Yes. But I think its also overhyped.
Hi lynw..... in what way and why do you think the therat is overhyped?
I think in particular the way some papers report it. Depends on the paper, the broadsheets tend to be more down to earth with the tabloids doing their usual over-sensationalism.
I do wonder sometimes why the government/police are quite happy for this kind of sensationalism? They must be, or surely they would want to set the people straight....
Flamin_Squirrel
12-06-06, 05:01 PM
Some good points there Lynw, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Is the threat real? Yes. But I think its also overhyped.
Hi lynw..... in what way and why do you think the therat is overhyped?
I think in particular the way some papers report it. Depends on the paper, the broadsheets tend to be more down to earth with the tabloids doing their usual over-sensationalism.
I do wonder sometimes why the government/police are quite happy for this kind of sensationalism? They must be, or surely they would want to set the people straight....
It's their current source of power.
Biker Biggles
12-06-06, 05:25 PM
All I can say is that if you choose to believe that a CBRN device going off in say a crowded stadium would not pose a serious threat then that is your perogative.I beg to differ.Also,if you wish to believe that the threat level is low,the same applies.As I have said above,I think I am aware of enough from where I work to think about moving.Not so much because of where I live,but because of where I work and what that entails.
Hopefully I am entirely wrong.
The Basket
12-06-06, 06:31 PM
The tokyo attack wasn't a bomb.
Sarin in a bag.
Spiderman
12-06-06, 06:43 PM
This is a list of the proposed pieces of information to be held in the National Identity Register (The database behind the ID cards scheme).
This list is not yet exhaustive, as there are likely to be further items added through less scrutinised secondary legislation.
1. Name
2.loads more unbeleivable info that they really shouldnt have access to without a court order or some justification more than "Just a random stop and search Sir, may i see your ID card".
One thing that the Govt are keeping very quiet about is the implementation of the RFID chips into the ID card too.
(For those of you who have no idea what RFID is please just do a search and you will find plenty of info i've posted about it before. i just dont wanna de-rail this thread into one about RFID you see.)
But the Govt are keeping that for level 2 implementation as its ess scrutinised and the new laws they are attempting to force thru that remove powers from both The Houses to check new legislation means that when they want this to happen it will.
its never a question of "if" in this country hen it comes to the will of Govt, only "when".
blah blah blah. Do you not have anything else to do, talk about :?: :roll:
Biker Biggles
12-06-06, 06:53 PM
The ID card thing is a bit of a derail in itself.I'm totally against ID cards,just as I'm totally against lurching towards the surveillance society we are becoming,but I do support the Police raiding a location they believe to contain a chemical weapon,and using everything they have to do so.I think the local short term disruption thus caused is a price worth paying,whereas ID cards and Big Brother as a permanent and general reality are not acceptable.
Flamin_Squirrel
12-06-06, 07:05 PM
The ID card thing is a bit of a derail in itself.I'm totally against ID cards,just as I'm totally against lurching towards the surveillance society we are becoming,but I do support the Police raiding a location they believe to contain a chemical weapon,and using everything they have to do so.I think the local short term disruption thus caused is a price worth paying...
Yes yes, but we're not talking about a bit of disruption. If they'd just raided someones house it wouldnt be a big deal, but they came close to killing someone innocent, and that's by no means acceptable.
Biker Biggles
12-06-06, 07:19 PM
Agreed on the shooting thing.We will find out eventually what happened there but my best guess is that it was a mistake.Given that armed raids happen,it surprises me that these errors don't happen more often.As for the scale of the raid I think that we have to live with that as well given the nature of the device that was supposed to be there.To put the boot on the other foot---Think of the public feeding frenzy that would be going on today if a chemical weapon had been there,and it had gone off,and the police had not taken every possible precaution with loads of resourses and all the wise after the event brigade come out to play.
Spiderman
12-06-06, 07:21 PM
The ID card thing is a bit of a derail in itself.I'm totally against ID cards,just as I'm totally against lurching towards the surveillance society we are becoming,but I do support the Police raiding a location they believe to contain a chemical weapon,and using everything they have to do so.I think the local short term disruption thus caused is a price worth paying...
Yes yes, but we're not talking about a bit of disruption. If they'd just raided someones house it wouldnt be a big deal, but they came close to killing someone innocent, and that's by no means acceptable.
from reading all the opinions so far (and yes i have read all the pages) i think we all pretty much agree that IF the intel was good intel then none of us would have much of a problem with the police.
The cops are only doing what is expected of them by Govt. They recieve so-so intel and are then told by ministers that the raid must go ahead as its a matter of national security. They cant say no to their bosses and so act on intel that then puts them in the firing line (excuse the pun) and makes them justify their actions.
Bad intel and bad planning led to the unlawful killing (imho) of JC De Menezez going about his lawful business.
Bad intel has now led to the shooting of yet another innocent.
The day a Brit, your average van driver or Sun reader if you will, gets targetted this way and shot is the day most of you who have justifications for this behaviour will feel involved.
The fact that so far its been "foreigners" or people you cant relate to means you feel detached from it ever happening to you. But as Lyn and others have said, just put yourself in the shoes of those who have so far been targeted and have to prove their innocence against evidence which cant be disclosed to them as its "top secret" or "sensative". Yet the operatives of this intel are free to walk about and provide the same crap intel time and time again as we the public arent allowed to know or question who spies for us.
Or on us.
Agreed on the shooting thing.We will find out eventually what happened there but my best guess is that it was a mistake.Given that armed raids happen,it surprises me that these errors don't happen more often.As for the scale of the raid I think that we have to live with that as well given the nature of the device that was supposed to be there.To put the boot on the other foot---Think of the public feeding frenzy that would be going on today if a chemical weapon had been there,and it had gone off,and the police had not taken every possible precaution with loads of resourses and all the wise after the event brigade come out to play.
Ok so where does this concept the muslim extremists would use dirty bombs come from? Our government and George Dubyahs administration.
And how much of that is to "justify" Guantanamo, these raids by our police and everything else?
By scaring people and raising the level of worry, they can justify these **** ups which would not be acceptable under a non-dirty bomb level of risk. Frankly, I dont believe these people have the capability, organisation or ability to make dirty bombs that youre so worried about. Not saying Im right mind, but a dirty bomb would have achieved a greater death toll than 9/11 yet they still went for planes in a building.
And they used conventional weapons prior to that on the WTC. Its hardly like dirty bombs are a new concept, it would suggest to me that the fact they havent used them in the past or to date means its a damn site harder for them to achieve than the scaremongerers would suggest. Now the IRA on the other hand, had they thought about it then imho they really would have had the capability, organisation and ability to do it.
But this idea of it being a high real risk is coming from the same mentality that can state that the 3 suicides in Guantanamo were "acts of war". :evil:
21QUEST
12-06-06, 08:53 PM
Nice posts. Ok I haven't read them all but I think it's safe to assume follows the usual pattern as in source , links , facts etc.
Anyways what I want ot know is
'Do the police have the powers to move the demonstrators on?' I only ask because they are interrupting traffic and being a general nuisance.
Look on the bright side though. I mean no one got killed and they have a big payout to look forward to.
Cheers
Ben
Jelster
12-06-06, 10:14 PM
Ah our political friend from Leicester is at it again....
Tell me Akbar, have you been banned from all the "Political Forums" ??
Only, I'm just trying to work out why you insist on posting such things here ?
.
northwind
12-06-06, 10:21 PM
Again, 7 pages of discussion with many interested parties- if he hadn't posted it, chances are someone would have. I'm more inclined to wonder why people insist on repeatedly asking whta the point of sucesful threads are ;)
The Basket
12-06-06, 10:24 PM
No-one has mentioned British forces in Afghanistan yet :D
Jelster
12-06-06, 10:29 PM
Again, 7 pages of discussion with many interested parties- if he hadn't posted it, chances are someone would have. I'm more inclined to wonder why people insist on repeatedly asking whta the point of sucesful threads are ;)
I'm sorry Northy, I must be the only person who feels that some people use this forum as a platform for their own rhetoric.....
And as they say, if you don't like what I say you don't have to read it.......
.
No-one has mentioned British forces in Afghanistan yet :D
Don't even dangle that worm , asking for a bite... :(
At the end of the day,the police/anti-terrorism unit were instructed to raid someones house based on info that MAYBE flawed.
I personally feel that the 'Better safe than sorry' rule applies here!
Unfortunately,we as the public,are mushrooms when it comes to getting the FULL FACTS!
(by mushrooms I mean, "Kept in the dark and fed on Bull****" )
I have a few thoughts on all this complete tosh.
Perhaps I best post them in a separate thread. I've been thinking of posting a while now, as the sort of sanctimonious and self-righteous claptrap I see on here seems to be getting more invasive.
Edski
21QUEST
12-06-06, 10:53 PM
Again, 7 pages of discussion with many interested parties- if he hadn't posted it, chances are someone would have. I'm more inclined to wonder why people insist on repeatedly asking whta the point of sucesful threads are ;)
I'm sorry Northy, I must be the only person who feels that some people use this forum as a platform for their own rhetoric.....
And as they say, if you don't like what I say you don't have to read it.......
.
Hm.. I have to say at this juncture I'm agreeing with Jelster :shock: :wink: .
Every one of his posts seem to be along the same line. I mean surely that bike of his must go wrong every now and then
:? :roll: :lol: .
Cheers
Ben
northwind
12-06-06, 11:16 PM
I'm sorry Northy, I must be the only person who feels that some people use this forum as a platform for their own rhetoric.....
You're not the only one. You are one of 3 or 4 who can be counted upon to step into every thread you don't like by certain posters to make it clear you don't like it. I'm just asking why.
(edit: I'm absolutely sure you're doing it for the right reasons, FWIW. I just don't see what value's added.)
Peter Henry
13-06-06, 06:26 AM
Northy....I think you might be counting me in your little black list. My reasons for objecting are that the particular threads appear to have a hidden agenda and simply go around in circles.
Further more those behind such threads, for me abuse this forum as they volunteer no other content of any value at any other time to the forum.
My view may be incorrect,but is one I am more than happy to admit to. :?
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 07:13 AM
I'm sorry Northy, I must be the only person who feels that some people use this forum as a platform for their own rhetoric.....
You're not the only one. You are one of 3 or 4 who can be counted upon to step into every thread you don't like by certain posters to make it clear you don't like it. I'm just asking why.
(edit: I'm absolutely sure you're doing it for the right reasons, FWIW. I just don't see what value's added.)
Yes, why is that Jelster?
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 07:16 AM
Again, 7 pages of discussion with many interested parties- if he hadn't posted it, chances are someone would have. I'm more inclined to wonder why people insist on repeatedly asking whta the point of sucesful threads are ;)
I'm sorry Northy, I must be the only person who feels that some people use this forum as a platform for their own rhetoric.....
And as they say, if you don't like what I say you don't have to read it.......
.
lol @ a point of view being rhetoric. Just because you don't agree, but would like to be able to....... you really shouldn'y take that out on me, eh?
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 07:17 AM
Nice posts. Ok I haven't read them all but I think it's safe to assume follows the usual pattern as in source , links , facts etc.
Anyways what I want ot know is
'Do the police have the powers to move the demonstrators on?' I only ask because they are interrupting traffic and being a general nuisance.
Look on the bright side though. I mean no one got killed and they have a big payout to look forward to.
Cheers
Ben
Yes Ben, they do.
Cheers
Akbar
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 07:41 AM
Ah our political friend from Leicester is at it again....
Tell me Akbar, have you been banned from all the "Political Forums" ??
Only, I'm just trying to work out why you insist on posting such things here ?
.
Ah, our self-importance-gushing friend from errrrr, wherever it is again. To answer your questions:
No.
I don't insist on anything other that a hygenic kitchen.
So tell me Jelster, why would you suggest that I insist on posting such things here??
Have you been banned from all the school-teacher forums?? You do sound alot like a school teacher....
Jelster
13-06-06, 07:53 AM
So tell me Jelster, why would you suggest that I insist on posting such things here??
Have you been banned from all the school-teacher forums?? You do sound alot like a school teacher....
School Teacher, sorry, they don't earn enough. However, the reason I am a biker, and, for some strange reason, thought this was a biking forum, not a political debating society. I see no value in having such debates on this forum.
And the only thing that I'd like to suggest you do is likely to upset the admins....
.
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 08:01 AM
School Teacher, sorry, they don't earn enough.
Really no need to apoligise. But bwahahahahahaha at the need for implication that you earn more than a school teacher does. Very well done indeed.
However, the reason I am a biker, and, for some strange reason, thought this was a biking forum, not a political debating society. I see no value in having such debates on this forum.
To be honest, what you see isn't really of very much concern to me.
And the only thing that I'd like to suggest you do is likely to upset the admins....
lol, feel free to PM me if that'd make you feel better. But it always makes me laugh when people such as yourself feel the need to make it all 'macho' on an internet forum. Go on, puff out that chest, Go on! Well done Steve.
Jelster
13-06-06, 08:09 AM
:smt015
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 08:11 AM
:roll:
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 08:17 AM
:roll: :roll:
Really, can people try and keep this thread on topic. There are so many now who claim to have no interest but cannot help but post. Something about 'attention *****' springs to mind.....
'attention *****'
Wear your sign with pride troll boy :lol:
sharriso74
13-06-06, 08:22 AM
As bad as the politicians . Once reasoned argument fails resort to mud slinging and name calling
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 08:25 AM
'attention *****'
Wear your sign with pride troll boy :lol:
So you think i'm a troll, yet you're still posting. Hmmm, doesn't say very much about you now does it.
So you think i'm a troll, yet you're still posting. Hmmm, doesn't say very much about you now does it.
Of course you're a troll, you show little or no interest in bikes or the wunnerful Suzuki SV650 in particular, instead all your posts are about political stuff which all the yammering on about will never change.
Now, when last did you change the oil on yer bike?
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 08:38 AM
So you think i'm a troll, yet you're still posting. Hmmm, doesn't say very much about you now does it.
Of course you're a troll, you show little or no interest in bikes or the wunnerful Suzuki SV650 in particular, instead all your posts are about political stuff which all the yammering on about will never change.
Now, when last did you change the oil on yer bike?
What you think of me is of no importance...... but as a matter of fact, I am not a troll. I enjoy reasoned discussion, which is why I am struggling a little with your good self razor. You seem to be one o fthose people on a definet power trip (making statements such as 'ofcorse you are a ......') - part time dinner lady perhaps?
But pleas keep this on topic now.... if you want to ask me any questions about my bike, please create a new thread in a relevant forum.
Thankyou.
:smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015 :smt015
northwind
13-06-06, 11:29 AM
Northy....I think you might be counting me in your little black list. My reasons for objecting are that the particular threads appear to have a hidden agenda and simply go around in circles.
I would've actually, then I realised you usually add into the threads that you drop these comments into...
Jelster
13-06-06, 12:15 PM
Northy....I think you might be counting me in your little black list. My reasons for objecting are that the particular threads appear to have a hidden agenda and simply go around in circles.
I would've actually, then I realised you usually add into the threads that you drop these comments into...
Where as I just complain about anything that seems to be politically motivated.
Akbar, could you tell me, as you take this government at so much distain, and you show a clear interest of those in the middle east, wouldn't your time best be spent there rather than here ? Are are you an undercover agent for an Islamic terrorist operation ?
.
northwind
13-06-06, 12:20 PM
Where as I just complain about anything that seems to be politically motivated.
Ah. Sorry mate, that came across incredibly rude. It wasn't meant in such a blunt way.
Jelster
13-06-06, 12:23 PM
Where as I just complain about anything that seems to be politically motivated.
Ah. Sorry mate, that came across incredibly rude. It wasn't meant in such a blunt way.
Didn't seem rude to me, I was joking at myself.... :lol:
.
northwind
13-06-06, 12:26 PM
Ah. :oops: Well, you can save that apology for some time I do accidentally offend you, you ****.
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 12:37 PM
Akbar, could you tell me, as you take this government at so much distain, and you show a clear interest of those in the middle east, wouldn't your time best be spent there rather than here ? Are are you an undercover agent for an Islamic terrorist operation ?
.
Oooh, how inflammatory Steven. Jeeeeeeze, you're just making my blood boil. But i'm feeling pretty generous today so I will extend you the courtesy of my wisdom, in answering your questions.
No.
No.
Out of interest, what makes you think I am in any way linked to an Islamic terrorist operation?
Sid Squid
13-06-06, 12:40 PM
Laughing with you Akbar, laughing with you.
Jelster
13-06-06, 12:40 PM
:laughat: Laughing with you Akbar, with you.
.
akbarhussain
13-06-06, 12:44 PM
:laughat: Laughing with you Akbar, with you.
.
lol, chimps laugh at (and with if they're a bit simple) their keepers sometimes. And so what?
Sid Squid
13-06-06, 12:49 PM
Laughing with you Akbar, laughing with you..
Did someone mention that happy little peaceful place called Afghanistan?
The place its so peaceful and the Taliban no longer exist to be a threat we should send the hijacking immigrants back? [according to some on a recent thread despite several of us stating the contrary]
As in here?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/5074382.stm
If you cant be bothered to read it, in essence its summed up by:
Every day the list of dead and injured increases, whether it be through the fighting, which has killed many Afghan security personnel, or assassinations, roadside or suicide bombs.
But sources in Helmand say there is not one district in the province which does not come under Taleban influence and there are many areas where they are "in control."
*puts spoon down
Peter Henry
13-06-06, 01:17 PM
Lynw...Indeed the local Warlords...read..... Drug Barons own private armies. Out to protect their pay masters livelihood. Or had everyone forgotten that other rather valuable commodity that exports from that region?
Ideals? Protecting a way of life? Living life in accordance with Allah? I do not think so. :?
northwind
13-06-06, 06:35 PM
Lynw...Indeed the local Warlords...read..... Drug Barons own private armies. Out to protect their pay masters livelihood. Or had everyone forgotten that other rather valuable commodity that exports from that region? Ideals? Protecting a way of life? Living life in accordance with Allah? I do not think so.
Under the Taliban, which was truly a muslim fundamentalist government, heroin production was slashed by 2/3... Post-war Afghanistan is almost back to pre- Taliban levels, and shows no sign of slowing.
This is where it gets to be a bit irritating though... The Taliban is not a government to be missed. I marched in '96 when they took Kabul, there was a not-very-succesful campaign at the time to bring it to wider notice. It seemed that nobody could care less at the time what was happening there. I'd have supported regime change in '96. But to leave them there for a decade then invade, demolish the country's already weak infrastructure, then largely move out, was wrong IMO.
Likewise Iraq... Not many people miss Hussein's Iraq. Even the loony left can't champion him as a suitable leader. Regime change in '91? I'd have bought that. But leave him in power for another 15 years then remove him on a completely false pretence? Lie to the electorate? Invade without any exit plan other than "They will welcome freedom"? All wrong, again IMO. If you want regime change, pitch regime change. Don't lie to us.
But people get twisted up on that... They want to be anti-war, but anti Hussein, anti-Taliban but laissez-faire, pro-reconstruction but anti-occupation. You just can't have it both ways. A lot of the left want to, and more or less take different positions depending on what way the wind's blowing. There's a real moral weakness in the left IMO. Moral cowardice, you might say.
Anyway. That was completely off topic wasn't it?
Lynw...Indeed the local Warlords...read..... Drug Barons own private armies. Out to protect their pay masters livelihood. Or had everyone forgotten that other rather valuable commodity that exports from that region?
Ideals? Protecting a way of life? Living life in accordance with Allah? I do not think so. :?
Northwind covered the reply to this above.
But my main point, rather than start a new thread, was at all the people who said in the hijacking/immigration thread that Afghanistan was a positive nirvana and a happy little democracy and the Taleban were dead and buried and a spent force.
Northwind and I got some flak for daring to suggest that perhaps the Home Office actually got it right by saying the country was too dangerous to return them to at the present time. The link in my last post should be sufficient to support that when we were arguing this it was far from resolved and far from safe and the Taleban are far from a spent force.
Sad thing is, Afghanistan will become another Iraq if its not dealt with quickly and decisively. And the death toll will continue to rise as it does in Iraq. :cry:
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