Questions asked over terror raid......

[akbarhussain]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5066846.stm

My goodness, I can hardly believe that the suspects have been released and not one chemical bomb was uncovered from the flat.

Ah well, at least we have been reminded that we are permanently living under the threat of terrorism.

[sharriso74]

A friend of mine commented on this saying that terrorists could have planted the wrong intelligence thus causing a backlash against the police and gaining more sympathisers/supporters.

[akbarhussain]

I think your friend may be correct.

[Biker Biggles]

I'm not usually one to leap to the defense of the plod when they screw up,and I think Blair(Sir Ian) is a disaster as Met Chief,but I think the Met were entirely right on this issue.I hear (rumour)that they were not convinced by the "intelligence"but were told by higher authority to act upon it and from there they should be supported by the public.
Once you go in on an operation like this there can be no half measures,so a full monty approach has to be adopted.This is largely because any public servant who does not use every avenue or resourse will find themselves vilified when things go wrong,and our blame culture will destroy them.We have all heard the arguements about this job over "damned if we do ,more damned if we don't" and that sums it up.
There was intelligence which was flawed.The Police had to act upon it.They did.There was a lot of disruption and some poeple got upset.Live with it.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

A friend of mine commented on this saying that terrorists could have planted the wrong intelligence thus causing a backlash against the police and gaining more sympathisers/supporters.

I think the police should have checked their sources before barging into someones home and shooting them.

[mysteryjimbo]

If there's a possiblity of there being terrorism at work they should ALWAYS act. How bad would the backlash be if they said "we had suspicions but didnt have the evidence to warrant a search".

They did right.

[454697819]

A friend of mine commented on this saying that terrorists could have planted the wrong intelligence thus causing a backlash against the police and gaining more sympathisers/supporters.

I think the police should have checked their sources before barging into someones home and shooting them.

and in the mean time potentially expose the uk to another threat..

sorry, im not going to loose any sleep over the fact they bust into the wrong house!

[Ed]

A friend of mine commented on this saying that terrorists could have planted the wrong intelligence thus causing a backlash against the police and gaining more sympathisers/supporters.

I think the police should have checked their sources before barging into someones home and shooting them.

No evidence so far to say that the police shot the bloke.

[Kate]

The police can't win. If they go in and don't find anything they get in ****, if they don't go in and it turns out that there was something there, then the police are in ****.

So nothing was there, better safe than sorry.

[arc123]

The powers the police now have under the anti-terror legislation are quite clearly open for abuse - and this is just the beginning. To all the supporters of this raid - would you be saying the same thing if these powers were being used aginst yourselves/friends/family? Thought not.

And this isn't just 'liberal/loony leftyism' - The anti-terrror bill can be used against anyone (like OAP's sitting at the back of a labour conference' or bankers accused of fraud in USA) - not just the 'terrorists' that are portrayed to us on the news every night.

[lynw]

and in the mean time potentially expose the uk to another threat..

sorry, im not going to loose any sleep over the fact they bust into the wrong house!

Until next time when its yours. And the way things are I wouldnt be up for guaranteeing they dont make another screw up.

Unfortunately its now descending into a public scapegoating excercise with the police trying to blame the intelligence services for poor intel. But end of day, if the mole had something against the brothers it would be an ideal way to cause them trouble as has been demonstrated.

If the police had questions over the intel, are they really now so utterly inept they can not carry out their own surveillance and obs?

Clearly so since it seems its a lot easier to find a convenient scapegoat who cant really publicly answer back. :?

[arc123]

454697819: see my post above - until maybe its your house?? Will you lose any sleep then perhaps? Or do you feel safe in your bed because you don't look like a terrorist??

[Flamin_Squirrel]

A friend of mine commented on this saying that terrorists could have planted the wrong intelligence thus causing a backlash against the police and gaining more sympathisers/supporters.

I think the police should have checked their sources before barging into someones home and shooting them.

and in the mean time potentially expose the uk to another threat..

sorry, im not going to loose any sleep over the fact they bust into the wrong house!

Firstly the 'threat' isnt anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be.

Secondly, they didn't just make a small mistake like bursting into the wrong house - they burst into an innocent mans house, shot him and dragged him off to prison!

Especially as this isnt the first police **** up resulting in someone innocent getting shot, I view this episode as entirely unacceptable.

[northwind]

Personally I doubt it was a stunt- the authorities get left looking too stupid for it just to be a "live in fear", and it costs them credibility. If they were acting on misinformation from a terrorist source, then it's still an intelligence breakdown on their part.

[mysteryjimbo]

The powers the police now have under the anti-terror legislation are quite clearly open for abuse - and this is just the beginning. To all the supporters of this raid - would you be saying the same thing if these powers were being used aginst yourselves/friends/family? Thought not.
.

Yes i would say the same thing. I'm confident nothing would be found on me. As for my family, if they're terrorists then they deserve to be caught.

The police are only doing their job. Hows it an abuse of power? What did they gain apart from seeing what kind literature they like to read and foods they eat?

[akbarhussain]

I hear (rumour)that they were not convinced by the "intelligence"but were told by higher authority to act upon it

now that sounds likely. To assure the public that teh terror threat in the UK is alive and well. Along with all the other arrests being made across the world (Canada, US etc) it almost makes me feel that the next terrorist attack may be on its way.


No evidence so far to say that the police shot the bloke.

lol. There will be. The 'confusion' over who shot the guy has been thrown in to ensure that no blame is laid now. Give it time.

[mysteryjimbo]

Secondly, they didn't just make a small mistake like bursting into the wrong house - they burst into an innocent mans house, shot him and dragged him off to prison!
.

Where else they going to put you while they search? The hilton? :wink:

[akbarhussain]

The police are only doing their job. Hows it an abuse of power? What did they gain apart from seeing what kind literature they like to read and foods they eat?

The police gained nothing. They are simply the foot soldiers.

[Biker Biggles]

I certainly don't defend draconian special powers like the anti terror bill but that is not the issue here.We are told there was credible intelligence that there was a chemical weapon at the premises,so what options are there for the authorities?Of course they have to raid the place,and the same would have been the case one two or ten years ago.
The issue of the shooting incident is seperate and will be investigated as usual.Who shot the suspect and whether it was deliberate or an accidental discharge will be looked at but I doubt if recent terror legislation will be relevant to that either.

[northwind]

Secondly, they didn't just make a small mistake like bursting into the wrong house - they burst into an innocent mans house, shot him and dragged him off to prison!


Brace yourself... I agree :) They also claimed that the risk was huge, the house would take ages to check, and that they were sure there was a chemical weapons facility there. How long does it take to search a house and not find a chemical weapons factory?

I totally agree that they should act on good intel, and that it's better to have a wrogn house raid than to hold off and be wrong. But in this case it went way beyond going into the wrong house.

Someone said "no reason to think the police shot the man". Well, if it had been anyone else in there, they'd almost certainly be being charged with firearms offences right now, logical assumption is that it was the police.

[akbarhussain]

So I wonder where the intelligence came from? This has GOT to be the first time that the UK government has acted on bad intelligence.

[mysteryjimbo]

So I wonder where the intelligence came from? This has GOT to be the first time that the UK government has acted on bad intelligence.

Would you like some bellows my good man?

[akbarhussain]

An interesting read; on how the Old Trafford bomb plot was initiated and escalated bby Greater Manchester Police force. Why would a police force do such a thing..... i'm sure we'd never see that in The Met.

http://www.redissue.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=267765

sidenote: I believe the 'red' in redissue is referring to the colours of Man Utd - but all you right wingers, feel free to accuse it of being a loony-left source :wink:

[akbarhussain]

Would you like some bellows my good man?

lol, no thanks Jimbo. The police/government are doing a fine job for themselves :wink:

[mysteryjimbo]

Would you like some bellows my good man?

lol, no thanks Jimbo. The police/government are doing a fine job for themselves :wink:

How do we know you arent a terrorist causing public unrest? :shock: :lol:

[Biker Biggles]

Definitely a problem with the intelligence,and an ongoing problem there in general,but that does not mean we blame the Police for carrying out this raid.They had no option but to do it,and the biggest danger to all of us is that we allow certain interest groups to intimidate the larger society not defending itself properly the next time.The next time possibly being the real time.

[lynw]

Yes i would say the same thing. I'm confident nothing would be found on me. As for my family, if they're terrorists then they deserve to be caught.

Ive been on dawn police and Customs raids. Im fully aware of the complete confusion that reigns for the first ten minutes while the location and suspects are secured and the shock and fear the person and their families encounters.

If the police kick your door in at 6am, I can assure you it will be a fair while before they can establish its a mistake. Then they will be reluctant to admit they cocked up. So as much as you are confident nothing will be found, it will be a long arduous and stressful time for some considerable time until they are absolutely satisfied theres nothing there. Its not a kick door in, oh sorry sir we'll leave simplicity that your post suggests it would be.

The police are only doing their job. Hows it an abuse of power? What did they gain apart from seeing what kind literature they like to read and foods they eat?

Actually I disagree. If the intel was suspect, why didnt they do their own obs and surveillance? Clearly they havent done. The fact is the polices job IS to carry out surveillance and Obs. Seems to me in trying to blame the intelligence services theyre trying to divert away from their own ineptness for doing their own jobs.

End of day, they got it wrong. Not just wrong, but majorly wrong because someone got shot that shouldnt have been.

Its not just the fact its the wrong house, but as the guys solicitors have said, they failed to identify themselves. If you had an armed person in a NBC suit kick your door in and didnt identify themselves as police, what would your response be? To presume as these brothers say they did they were armed robbers?

Its not the particular officers fault here. But whoever in the Met has effectively said its ok to go in without checking the evidence first is at fault. Because next time it could be any one of us. THATS the issue here - that theres no controls on them from just doing what they like atm or even doing something like CHECKING the intel.

[akbarhussain]

How do we know you arent a terrorist causing public unrest?

lol, and I thought that by posting on an internet forum nobody would hear my chants of "GLOBAL JIIIIIIIIHAAAAAAAAAAADDD!!" :wink:

[mysteryjimbo]

extensive essay

Nope i can assure you that for the next 60 years i doubt i'll have much to do with the police when it comes to terrorism.

I think i'll win the lottery before that happens.

[arc123]

Bikerbiggles wrote:
I certainly don't defend draconian special powers like the anti terror bill but that is not the issue here

PArt of the issue i'm afraid - And to think that many in the government would have had these two inncoent people locked up for 90 days.

And again aimed at BikerBiggle, and anybody else that thinks that I/we are laying the blame at the police. That isn't really the case, as Akbar says, they are merely the foot slodiers. The police used to be 'protectors of the people' - not sure thats too apt now.

[lynw]

extensive essay

Nope i can assure you that for the next 60 years i doubt i'll have much to do with the police when it comes to terrorism.

I think i'll win the lottery before that happens.

Who says it has to be about terrorism? The police are quite capable of making mistakes on other issues. Whos to say you dont upset someone and they dont report you as a drug dealer? It does happen. And its why the police are supposed to investigate any intel and assess the reliability of it.

Customs WILL NOT arbitarily take someones word for it precisely because of situations like that. If theres any hint the suggestion is true, it will be investigated and surveillance and obs done to verify the intel BEFORE they do a knock.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

extensive essay

Nope i can assure you that for the next 60 years i doubt i'll have much to do with the police when it comes to terrorism.

I think i'll win the lottery before that happens.

Someone on this forum got a rather unpleasant wakeup call from the boys in blue because the idiots got the wrong name (maybe not exactly that, but something trivial anyway). It doesnt have to be linked to terrorism for you to end up at the sharp end of the police forces incompetance - and even if you never do, it certainly doesnt make it alright that other people do.

[Swiss]

The fact of the matter is there is no smoke without fire, FACT. If there was no cause for concern in the slightest then the raid would never have happened.

We only have to look back a year to see the effects of what happens when intelligence is ignored. How quickly we forget!!!!

[Biker Biggles]

Flamin Squirrel----You may think there is not much of a threat to us but here I think you are very wrong.We may be largely inept at countering the threat with poor intelligence and bungled raids but the threat is real enough.Ask the relatives of those that died on the tubes a year ago,or those that died in the World Trade Centre or Madrid or Bali or any of the hundred other incidents in the last few years.And if you think London is not one of the prime targets I suggest you think again.
From some of the things I've seen and heard about through work over the last couple of years I have seriously considered moving away from here,but I suppose no one would have me. :P

[Peter Henry]

Polite request!

Akbar...is there any slim possibility that you will ever post any thread that is not related to the question of middle eastern politics and related terrorist issues? As well constructed as your arguments might at times be, your are to my mind becoming nothing more than a bore singing the same old tune but with a different beat.

This is a bike forum and though I acccept other issues are discussed,this is getting towards ridiculous now. :?

[mysteryjimbo]

extensive essay

Nope i can assure you that for the next 60 years i doubt i'll have much to do with the police when it comes to terrorism.

I think i'll win the lottery before that happens.

Who says it has to be about terrorism? The police are quite capable of making mistakes on other issues. Whos to say you dont upset someone and they dont report you as a drug dealer? It does happen. And its why the police are supposed to investigate any intel and assess the reliability of it.

Customs WILL NOT arbitarily take someones word for it precisely because of situations like that. If theres any hint the suggestion is true, it will be investigated and surveillance and obs done to verify the intel BEFORE they do a knock.

But thats precisely what the discussion is about. The police and their powers when it comes to terrorism. They have to act if the intel is there.

Damned if you do and damned if you dont. It would have been a completely different discussion if there was something there. Whos to say the next time there wont be?

[arc123]

Peter Henry
Akbar...is there any slim possibility that you will ever post any thread that is not related to the question of middle eastern politics and related terrorist issues?
This thread has nothing in the slightest to do with Middle-Eastern politics - a prime example of a un-knowingly biased mind :roll:

http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?t=39803 - hows that for you? I have no problem in the slightest with any topic in Idle Banter. This is afterall, an SV forum - should we insist on only SV threads from this point? or is that being a little rediculous?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Flamin Squirrel----You may think there is not much of a threat to us but here I think you are very wrong.We may be largely inept at countering the threat with poor intelligence and bungled raids but the threat is real enough.Ask the relatives of those that died on the tubes a year ago,or those that died in the World Trade Centre or Madrid or Bali or any of the hundred other incidents in the last few years.And if you think London is not one of the prime targets I suggest you think again.
From some of the things I've seen and heard about through work over the last couple of years I have seriously considered moving away from here,but I suppose no one would have me. :P

50 odd people? More people die each year from slipping while getting out of bed. I'm not trivialising the deaths of the people affected by what happened in the attacks on the underground, but lets get some perspective here.

The fact is the chances of you being affected by a terrorist incident is utterly insignificant. Police bungles of this scale, for which the chances of you being a victim of are far higher, really should not be tollerated.

[akbarhussain]

The fact of the matter is there is no smoke without fire, FACT.


Swiss, please see my previous post with a link to the faked Old Trafford Bomb plot. I feel that this is an instance where there was alot of smoke with zero fire. Care to rethink your post?

[akbarhussain]

lol, thanks for the support cheef.

PH, point taken.

[arc123]

no problem - I find it frankly annoying that the same few people post up utter drivvle in IB, and then insist that others post only about bikes if they don't approve. And it always the same old people :roll:

[Biker Biggles]

As for the issue about checking the information by surveillance and comparing this to a drugs raid or cleaning up a gang of hoods there is no relevant comparison.
It amazes me sometimes that some people do not quite grasp the significance of a chemical weapon or dirty bomb going off in a city like London.If you thought four bombs on crowded tubes or busses was nasty,then think about casualties in the tens of thousands with after effects to hundreds of thousands depending on wind and weather.A drug dealer just don't have that kind of urgency.
With the potential for that reality,there really is little room for worrying about offending a few sensibilities for a week or so or sometimes getting it wrong.
These attitudes sometimes remind me of the old farts in Singapore who refused to let the Army put guns on their golf course -----just before the Japanese arrived and killed said old farts because they would'nt be much use building the Burma railway.Wake up,the coffee has an aroma.

[akbarhussain]

Wake up,the coffee has an aroma.

And it smells just like propaganda.

I love the smell of propaganda in the morning - Tony Blair, Jan 2006.

[arc123]

Biker Biggles wrote:
If you thought four bombs on crowded tubes or busses was nasty,then think about casualties in the tens of thousands with after effects to hundreds of thousands depending on wind and weather.
Facts please biggles - you're opinion may be interesting (or not), but facts are what is required here. Any (credible) links for this??

[Peter Henry]

Chief...I think you are living in a dream world! You are a joker obviously! Did you even read what you wrote?


How can you be so condescending with a total failure to acknowledge or accept what is going on in the world.

Of course what is going on in the middle east has no baring what so ever on the fact that terrorists have and will continue to cause their mayhem in the UK against innocent people.

"un-knowingly biased mind?" Please do not categories myself with you.

[akbarhussain]

It amazes me sometimes that some people do not quite grasp the significance of a chemical weapon or dirty bomb going off in a city like London.

Now Mr Biggles, i'm not underestimating the impact of a dirty-bomb in any way. But i'd be interested in hearing what you personally believe the significance would be.

Editied as I didn't read your post properly. So here's a link........ the therat of a dirty bomb, although still not very pleassent, is still being overplayed in the mass media. I wonder why the government won't put people straught on this:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/dirtybomb.html

[Kate]

wow, only 3 pages for one of akbarhussain's threads to drop to name calling. The fact that one of these posts has dropped to name calling is not surprising (indeed, quite the opposite) but 3 pages must be a record.

[akbarhussain]

wow, only 3 pages for one of akbarhussain's posts to drop to name calling. The fact that one of these posts has dropped to name calling is not surprising (indeed, quite the opposite) but 3 pages must be a record.

Where did I drop to name calling please?

Edited :
Ooops, sorry, I thought you were accusing me of something untowards. My Apoligies.

[Peter Henry]

Kate....Sorry. :oops: :oops:

[454697819]

454697819: see my post above - until maybe its your house?? Will you lose any sleep then perhaps? Or do you feel safe in your bed because you don't look like a terrorist??


i dont feel safe cause i live in leeds, i dont feel safe because i was burgled last week, i dont feel safe because if i pick up a kitchen knife to defend myself ill be branded a criminal,

yes i feel sympathetic towards them, but whats me sitting here typing this going to do? f an all eh?

so i stand by it, as long as its not me i dont care, as long as long term what they are doing is right as long as one day people will just leave each other alone.

i stand by my opinion of as long as the potential and reasoning was there.

Im fed up of this molly coddling world of "oh im so sorry we stood on your toes whilst trying to defend the country" im sick of the fact that if they had caught the pepole that burgled me last week they would have got a slap on the wrist, for once the police were doing somat pro active.. hoooo fecking rahhhh!! at last the police are doing somat, ok so it turns out wrong.. they cant win, ffs give them a break.

If the police come knocking at my door so be it, ill let you know

regards
a very peaved alex.

[northwind]

Im fed up of this molly coddling world of "oh im so sorry we stood on your toes whilst trying to defend the country"

I can understand that. I can't understand how you can consider shooting someone then keeping him and another innocent man in custody for a week "stepping on someone's toes".

[Swiss]

Akbar, Please post a link to your other thread and I'll gladly take the time to read it.
The Fact of the matter is despite there being no substance to the Old Trafford plot the fact inteligence had led this far IS your smoke. Do you think that some chap just decides randomly, today we'll raid number 8 Coronation Street and see if we get luckly??????

Please don't think I dissagree with you entirely as I don't, but I don't think on issues such as these there will ever be a middle ground.

[Biker Biggles]

I've only done the training courses and been shown a few graphs,but whatever your take on it the potential for casualties is greater than the tube bombings and greater than a couple of skyscrapers falling down in New York.Whatever the actual figure,which no one knows prior to the specific event,it requires a certain urgency of action from the Police if it is to be prevented.

[454697819]

Im fed up of this molly coddling world of "oh im so sorry we stood on your toes whilst trying to defend the country"

I can understand that. I can't understand how you can consider shooting someone then keeping him and another innocent man in custody for a week "stepping on someone's toes".


they didnt know he was inoccent untill they had questioned him, did they? they didnt know he was guilty either, i agree shooting him is a bit ott but what was the other option he blow up london,

i stand by this, shooting was ott - the fact it was the wrong hous ei will loose no sleep over

[akbarhussain]

Hey swiss, not a thread, just a an article I referenced earlier.

http://www.redissue.co.uk/news/loadnews.asp?cid=TMNW&id=267765

Shows perfectly how the smoke can be manufacturered.

Please don't think I dissagree with you entirely as I don't, but I don't think on issues such as these there will ever be a middle ground.

I agree, and in all honesty, I don't expect or even want to try and convert anyones way of thinking. Just enjoying the debate.

[akbarhussain]

I've only done the training courses and been shown a few graphs,but whatever your take on it the potential for casualties is greater than the tube bombings and greater than a couple of skyscrapers falling down in New York.Whatever the actual figure,which no one knows prior to the specific event,it requires a certain urgency of action from the Police if it is to be prevented.

Did you even read the link site Mr. Biggles?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Im fed up of this molly coddling world of "oh im so sorry we stood on your toes whilst trying to defend the country" im sick of the fact that if they had caught the pepole that burgled me last week they would have got a slap on the wrist, for once the police were doing somat pro active.. hoooo fecking rahhhh!! at last the police are doing somat, ok so it turns out wrong.. they cant win, ffs give them a break.

If the police come knocking at my door so be it, ill let you know

regards
a very peaved alex.

You and BB are still missing the point. They had some intel which they decided had some merit, so they acted on. I think everyone is agreed this is the correct decision for a matter so potentially serious.

What is an incorrect decision is to barge into someones home shooting without confirming the intel first.

No-ones against letting the police do their job, people are against accepting completely unprofessional and quite frankly wreckless behaviour that's now, if anything, increased tensions making any attack more likely, not less.

[arc123]

and again, its one of the usual suspects that resorts to the name-calling :roll:

Which part of my post do you not agree with PH?

Chief Wrote
"This thread has nothing in the slightest to do with Middle-Eastern politics" - you disagree with this?? How has a police raid in London, against a British born family, who have since been released without charge have anything to do with Middle-|Eastern politics?

Please correct me.........

[Peter Henry]

Chief.....A wise man learns more from a foolish question, than a fool does from an intelligent answer.

Northy...I think this raid was indeed ill conceived and I have every sympathy with the two guys and any other family members that were witness to the events. However this was not planned over a pint at the local..this was top level stuff and I suggest a lot of checking as to why this was a failed mission and to check intelligence about the two guys would have had to be carried out before releasing them.

Unfortunately the fight against terrorism cannot always be carried out by following Queensbury rules or any other guidelines as the nature of the those being sort and the methods they choose to employ...are often extremely devious.

Due to that I am afraid that there will I am sure be instances of good law abiding families going through similar frightening experiences. Then again there are many other innocent familes who will lose their kin due to the actions of these terrorists also, and so who do we seek to protect more? The potential victims or the likely perpetrators? it is indeed a thoroughly messy business. :?

[arc123]

454697819 wrote:
they didnt know he was inoccent untill they had questioned him, did they?

ha ha - nail on the head my freind. It seems to be more that way, rather than 'until proven guilty' nowadays.

[akbarhussain]

Unfortunately the fight against terrorism cannot always be carried out by following Queensbury rules or any other guidelines as the nature of the those being sort and the methods they choose to employ...are often extremely devious.

So we are told..... hence the requirements (or again, so we are told) for greater police powers. Maybe even ID cards, who knows.

Does anyone consider that there is a possibility that the terrorist threat has and is being exagerated?

[arc123]

PH - I obviously stand corrected :roll:

[fizzwheel]

Maybe even ID cards, who knows.

IMHO we've already got them. its called Photocard driving license. It has your address, your DOB and a photo of you on it.

Most places take them as legit ID.

[akbarhussain]

IMHO we've already got them. its called Photocard driving license. It has your address, your DOB and a photo of you on it.

Most places take them as legit ID.

Nope, that is a Photocard driving license - the National ID card is what the government is proposing to "help prevent the terrorist threat."

Very different.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Unfortunately the fight against terrorism cannot always be carried out by following Queensbury rules or any other guidelines as the nature of the those being sort and the methods they choose to employ...are often extremely devious.

They should be. Better to let the guilty go free than punish the innocent.

[fizzwheel]

IMHO we've already got them. its called Photocard driving license. It has your address, your DOB and a photo of you on it.

Most places take them as legit ID.

Nope, that is a Photocard driving license - the National ID card is what the government is proposing to "help prevent the terrorist threat."

Very different.

So whats the difference. What will the National ID Card have on it that isnt already on your Photocard driving license.

[Peter Henry]

So, place of birth dictates your potential to become a terrorist? Strewth that is an eye opener. And one would never carry out an act of terrorism against the people of the country in which you were born. Indeed this is an education.

And being a member of a law abiding and respected family totally removes any possibility of you being involved in any kind of terrorism,right?

I guess someone should have had a word with Old Bin Laden along the way then shouldn't they?

Jordan...Yours is a thoroughly decent point of view and one to which I would normally ascribe to.......but I cannot see how in reality that can always be guaranteed? :?

[Flamin_Squirrel]

IMHO we've already got them. its called Photocard driving license. It has your address, your DOB and a photo of you on it.

Most places take them as legit ID.

Nope, that is a Photocard driving license - the National ID card is what the government is proposing to "help prevent the terrorist threat."

Very different.

So whats the difference. What will the National ID Card have on it that isnt already on your Photocard driving license.

Finger prints, iris scans...

Plus you'll be forced to have one, unlike a driving licence.

[454697819]

454697819 wrote:
they didnt know he was inoccent untill they had questioned him, did they?

ha ha - nail on the head my freind. It seems to be more that way, rather than 'until proven guilty' nowadays.

yes but how else do you protect people when it comes to stuff so important as big bombs.

[fizzwheel]

Finger prints, iris scans...

Plus you'll be forced to have one, unlike a driving licence.

Ah right thanks.

[akbarhussain]

This is a list of the proposed pieces of information to be held in the National Identity Register (The database behind the ID cards scheme).

This list is not yet exhaustive, as there are likely to be further items added through less scrutinised secondary legislation.

1. Name
2. Other previous names or aliases;
3. Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
4. Address
5. Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
6. Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
7. Current residential status;
8. Residential statuses previously held;
9. Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
10. Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
11. Information recorded in the Register on request.
12. Photograph
13. Fingerprints
14. “Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
15. Signature
16. Nationality;
17. Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
18. Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
19. National Identity Registration Number;
20. The number of any ID card that has been issued;
21. National Insurance number;
22. The number of any relevant immigration document;
23. The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
24. The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
25. The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
26. The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
27. Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
28. The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
29. Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
30. The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
31. The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
32. The date of every application for registration;
33. The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
34. The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
35. The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
36. Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
37. Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
38. Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
39. Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
40. Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
41. The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
42. Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
43. Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
44. Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
45. Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
46. A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
47. A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
48. Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
49. Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
50. Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
51. Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.

[akbarhussain]

yes but how else do you protect people when it comes to stuff so important as big bombs.

Well, if the government wasn't creating fake intel about big bombs, there would be no protection required.

[Filipe M.]

This is a list of the proposed pieces of information to be held in the National Identity Register (The database behind the ID cards scheme).

This list is not yet exhaustive, as there are likely to be further items added through less scrutinised secondary legislation.


*snip*

They forgot to add the number of times people go to McDonald's... :roll:

[Biker Biggles]

Dirty bombs are indeed an unknown area so your American research is interesting but not definitive.
Here's a scenario we would look at----Cup final day at Wembley.(If they had built it :lol: )Do I need to elaborate?A bit of imagination rather puts that bit of academic "research" into perspective.You could be faced with 100,000 real and potential casualties in minutes,and the point is that the Police have to consider that when they choose a course of action.

[sharriso74]

This is a list of the proposed pieces of information to be held in the National Identity Register (The database behind the ID cards scheme).

This list is not yet exhaustive, as there are likely to be further items added through less scrutinised secondary legislation.


*snip*

They forgot to add the number of times people go to McDonald's... :roll:

That can be worked out from their weight

[Filipe M.]

This is a list of the proposed pieces of information to be held in the National Identity Register (The database behind the ID cards scheme).

This list is not yet exhaustive, as there are likely to be further items added through less scrutinised secondary legislation.


*snip*

They forgot to add the number of times people go to McDonald's... :roll:

That can be worked out from their weight

Ops, you're right, I stand corrected.

On second though, better not to stand, just sit down... I must have been there too many times myself.

[Peter Henry]

akbar wrote:

Well, if the government wasn't creating fake intel about big bombs, there would be no protection required.

I completely agree that there has been a disgraceful amount of untruth brought to the public domain. However Akbar I cannot for one second believe that even you would agree that the potential threat is as small as your post indicated.

There is a threat....many might suggest it is to a degree reaping what you sew, but undeniably there is a threat. :?

[arc123]

PH - me thinks you've picked up a stick, cut it up into many, many pieces, and have not got a clue which end you're now holding it :roll:

From the start:

1) you accuse Akbar of having nothing to write about other than 'Middle-Eastern' politics.

2) I kindly correct you, and say that this thread titled "questions asked over terrorist raid" has nothing to do with Middle-Eastern politics

3) You put your head where it really shouldn't be and type randomly as fast as you can (please read PH's last post)

That is the chain of events as far as I can see - please correct me if I am wrong you wise old man.

Apologies if this is detracting from the 'real' discussion

[***Steve***]

I've only done the training courses and been shown a few graphs,but whatever your take on it the potential for casualties is greater than the tube bombings and greater than a couple of skyscrapers falling down in New York.Whatever the actual figure,which no one knows prior to the specific event,it requires a certain urgency of action from the Police if it is to be prevented.

Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the 'Terror Raid' the dirty bomb story, so beloved of the 24hr news graphics teams is a red herring. It would be worthless as a weapon; you don't have to take my word for that just check it out with the IAEA. Hell even the CIA would tell you it's no threat.

Unfortunately it's in the public consciousness now and it's a useful scare tool for governments so no-one clears up the confusion. If I had my way the Day Today would be required viewing for all school children to teach them how news is distorted and used for political purposes or, if nothing else, to prepare them against the very real threat of terrorist Bomb Dogs.

[akbarhussain]

Do I need to elaborate?A bit of imagination rather puts that bit of academic "research" into perspective.You could be faced with 100,000 real and potential casualties in minutes,and the point is that the Police have to consider that when they choose a course of action.

SO let me get this straight.

There is pleanty of evidence out there stating that a dirty-bomb would produce little or no casualties (apart from caused by the conventional explosion), and theres is, plenty that isn't connetced to mine.

There is no evidence to say that a dirty bomb would work (apart form the hear say generated by the government/media).... Unless i'm missing something.......

So basiaclly, you're ignoring what is generally accepted as being fact..... to concentrate on a scenario that you just came up with over lunch. Thats pretty imaginative, well done.

You got me there.

[akbarhussain]

Unfortunately it's in the public consciousness now and it's a useful scare tool for governments so no-one clears up the confusion. If I had my way the Day Today would be required viewing for all school children to teach them how news is distorted and used for political purposes or, if nothing else, to prepare them against the very real threat of terrorist Bomb Dogs.

Precisely.

[Peter Henry]

Chief...maybe you should be the one that should go away and choose some alternative reading matter as opposed to the dogma you apparently feast upon.

So no connection at all with said raid and middle eastern affairs then? Right got that thank you for the enriching information. If I was so totally wrong I am sure good peeps of the forum would have pointed this out to me.

Apart from snide remarks you do not appear to have anything of value to offer? have you worked on that or does it come naturally?

*slaps own wrist for being rather sarcastic to poor chief.*

[diamond]

Do I need to elaborate?A bit of imagination rather puts that bit of academic "research" into perspective.You could be faced with 100,000 real and potential casualties in minutes,and the point is that the Police have to consider that when they choose a course of action.

SO let me get this straight.

There is pleanty of evidence out there stating that a dirty-bomb would produce little or no casualties (apart from caused by the conventional explosion), and theres is, plenty that isn't connetced to mine.

There is no evidence to say that a dirty bomb would work (apart form the hear say generated by the government/media).... Unless i'm missing something.......

So basiaclly, you're ignoring what is generally accepted as being fact..... to concentrate on a scenario that you just came up with over lunch. Thats pretty imaginative, well done.

You got me there.

You are completely right Dirty bombs are no real threat but chemical and biological weapons are another story. You only have to look at the attacks on the tokyo underground to see how easy a target the public are.

[***Steve***]

Do I need to elaborate?A bit of imagination rather puts that bit of academic "research" into perspective.You could be faced with 100,000 real and potential casualties in minutes,and the point is that the Police have to consider that when they choose a course of action.

SO let me get this straight.

There is pleanty of evidence out there stating that a dirty-bomb would produce little or no casualties (apart from caused by the conventional explosion), and theres is, plenty that isn't connetced to mine.

There is no evidence to say that a dirty bomb would work (apart form the hear say generated by the government/media).... Unless i'm missing something.......

So basiaclly, you're ignoring what is generally accepted as being fact..... to concentrate on a scenario that you just came up with over lunch. Thats pretty imaginative, well done.

You got me there.

You are completely right Dirty bombs are no real threat but chemical and biological weapons are another story. You only have to look at the attacks on the tokyo underground to see how easy a target the public are.


Although if you set off a DB in somewhere like The City you would render in inhabitable for a long time so that would be a useful form of financial terrorism.

[arc123]

PH - I asked you to correct me and you haven't - I take it you cannot?

You said "connected to Middle-Eastern Politics" - I welcome you to inform me how this was at all related to Middle-Eastern politics.

[akbarhussain]

I completely agree that there has been a disgraceful amount of untruth brought to the public domain. However Akbar I cannot for one second believe that even you would agree that the potential threat is as small as your post indicated.

There is a threat....many might suggest it is to a degree reaping what you sew, but undeniably there is a threat.

I totally agree with what you say here, there genuinely is a terrorist therat in the UK today. This is backed up by the terrible and tragic events that saw the needless loss of life in London last July.

My point (although it may well get lost under the sheer weight of posts) is that the government is doing nothing to prevent the terrorist threat. In fact, they seem to be doing all they can to promote it, whether that be intentional or not.

You quite correctly state that there has bee a "disgraceful amount of untruth brought to the public domain." It's almost like the boy who cried wolf..... why should we believ them when they are simply trying to acheieve there goals at whatever cost.

I don't have any information to substantiate my opinion..... but most terrorists seem to be doing wehat they're doing becasue of US/British action in the Middle East. In fact, wasn't one of the 7/7 bombers video taped saying exactly this?

Now Tony Blair never seems too keen to talk about his actions being the cause of terrorism, quite the opposite.

And precisely why I mention the ID cards shambles...... terrorism, or the threat of, is being used again for the government to achaive their goals.

So on one hand, we have a government that is trying to protect us from the terrorist threat (seemingly by promoting false information that is readily lapped up by the mainstream media, that keeps Joe Public very aware that he could be attacked at any second).

But on the other, they are still promoting their own global conquests (Afghanistan/Iraq/Iran) using the pretence of terror/WMD/??????.... whcih seems to be furtehr alienating those that are ready to attack us.

[Peter Henry]

Chief..I am not on here to act as your personal tutor. If you cannot see any connection..no matter how loose...then there are perhaps those better suited to your remedial educational needs.

(You may in your err hum wisdom see that as my inability to reply....that matters little.)

[akbarhussain]

You are completely right Dirty bombs are no real threat but chemical and biological weapons are another story. You only have to look at the attacks on the tokyo underground to see how easy a target the public are.

Correct.

Although if you remember the Ricin plot from a couple of years ago, it does show that it is not always as easy as it seems. Although again, the governemnt/media were quite happy for us all to be told that we were about to die.

http://www.algeria-watch.org/en/ricin_ring.htm

[akbarhussain]

Although if you set off a DB in somewhere like The City you would render in inhabitable for a long time so that would be a useful form of financial terrorism.

Incorrect.

[arc123]

PH - I picked you up on it because you were, as usual, throwing your proverbial weight around (by suggesting that Akbar should pack his bags unless he started writing about bikes) - You were factually wrong in what you wrote so I told you so - you have been unable to show me the error of my judgement. I'm embarrased for you

:oops:

[Peter Henry]

Chief...Your compassion warms me. I thank you for that. :wink:

No proverbial weight being thrown around at all, dont be such a drama queen. I do believe that my post wa highlighted rather boldly as a polite request?

You see he does also have the ability to contribute on other matters as his rather nice sounding BBQ recipe indicates.

However if you cannot see it my friend then surely your embarassment in front of the peeps on here must hold no bounds?

Akbar at least does have the ability to post intelligent comment, whether one agrees with him or not. Are you his first week apprentice? You just starting to learn the ropes? Bit of a way to go fella. :wink:

[***Steve***]

Although if you set off a DB in somewhere like The City you would render in inhabitable for a long time so that would be a useful form of financial terrorism.

Incorrect.

Care to back that up?

[arc123]

ANyway - back on topic me thinks.

PH - You're juvenile put-downs do entertain me. PM me if you need anymore compassion - got plenty more for you if required. :?

[mysteryjimbo]

ANyway - back on topic me thinks.

PH - You're juvenile put-downs do entertain me. PM me if you need anymore compassion - got plenty more for you if required. :?

So much for the discussion. If you've nothing nice to say, say nothing. That goes for both of you! :lol:

[Peter Henry]

Chief....Waste my time with you via a pm? You obviously think you rate highly enough for me to consider such an action? Now that is humour! Nice one! :wink:

I have enjoyed our little Roland Garros type volleys across the net though. :P

Jimbo...Indeed I have sinned. :oops: :oops:

[akbarhussain]

Care to back that up?

Yes, read my previous link.

[diamond]

You are completely right Dirty bombs are no real threat but chemical and biological weapons are another story. You only have to look at the attacks on the tokyo underground to see how easy a target the public are.

Correct.

Although if you remember the Ricin plot from a couple of years ago, it does show that it is not always as easy as it seems. Although again, the governemnt/media were quite happy for us all to be told that we were about to die.

http://www.algeria-watch.org/en/ricin_ring.htm

Just because that ricin ring was found to be wrongly accused it doesn't mean that there isn't somebody out there making themselves ready to cause carnage on the streets of a city some where. I'm not saying there is some one out there, but i'm not saying there isn't. A bit like my view of ghosts, i've never seen one but they might be out there but then again it might all be some **** and bull story to frighten us on a dark Halloween night, i'll just never know.

What i do know is that I work with the biological agents that are commonly used in bioterrorist attacks and i am very aware of the threat they are to society even before they are made into some sort of weapon. And i have to say if there was even the tiniest amount of it in the wrong hands i would like to think the police would have the power to stop it being used against innocent members of the public. The way they go about stopping this has so far been a little dubious (SP) but i hope that a way can be found to act on the intel and ensure that things don't go horribly wrong.

[diamond]

Although if you set off a DB in somewhere like The City you would render in inhabitable for a long time so that would be a useful form of financial terrorism.

Incorrect.

Care to back that up?

The term dirty bomb is most often used to refer to a Radiological Dispersal Device (RDD), a radiological weapon which combines radioactive material with conventional explosives. Though an RDD is designed to disperse radioactive material over a large area, the conventional explosive would likely have more immediate lethal effect than the radioactive material. At levels created from most probable sources, not enough radiation would be present to cause severe illness or death.

A test explosion and subsequent calculations done by the United States Department of Energy found that assuming nothing is done to clean up the affected area and everyone stays in the affected area for 1 year, the radiation exposure would be "fairly high". However, recent analysis of the Chernoblyl fallout seems to show that many people are hardly affected over 5 years and more.

[akbarhussain]

replace 'wrongly accused' with 'innocents that had evidence manufactured against them, so that that informationn could be leaked to the papers to create panic'...... and I agree with all of your post.

[***Steve***]

Care to back that up?

Yes, read my previous link.

Nope that article's not gonna do it. Cesium would likely be used and that stuff is nigh on impossible to get out of concrete and buildings.

Check out the IAEA report on Chernobyl, the russians gave up trying to clean it out of the abandoned towns and just buldozed them in the end.