Do I deserve a Pay Rise ? (Long read) Please advise

[SpankyHam]

This is a follow up letter I sent to my Boss after the incident about wearing shorts in the office I posted a while back ago.

Basically I get 1.5 K more a year than my colleagues for providing IT & Engineering Support (which I think is taking the ****). I worked there for more than 7 months now.

Please advise what you think as our "Office Manager" tells me once a week that "I earn a lot more than my colleagues and I should be grateful"

I feel cheated

Here is the Letter:

EDIT: Now removed Thanks for everyones replys



PatrickUK

[fizzwheel]

Its a tricky area. You've been given conflicting advice by two different managers. Its up to them to sort it out not you. Sounds like somebody is playing political power games in your company.

Personally I would ask for an informal meeting, with your supervisor and tell them how you feel and what can be done about it. I really would'nt submit that letter just yet it might do you more harm than good.

Have a chat with your supervisor about your pay if you are not happy with it. Do some research find out what salary your job role would attract at an alternative company. Ask your supervisor what he or she thinks that you need to do to get on the pay scale that you want get them to draw up a development plan in writing so you have something to aim for so they can't move the goalposts.

Playing devils advocate, have you considered the fact that you do earn a sensible salary for the responsibilities of your job ?

As with all these kind of things go and get some proper impatial legal advice from CAB or a Solicitor. If you have a HR department at work have a chat with them and ask their advice.

Good luck with it.

[SpankyHam]

Thanks for your reply.

The letter has been sent to the company owner about a month ago :lol:

I already spoke to my Supervisor about my salary and she agrees that I should earn a lot more money for the duties I do.

But it;s not down to her nor to the "Office Manager" - it's down to the Company owner...


I jhave been offered a new IT Job with a different company for 4k more than I'm on at the moment.
So I'm in a good bargaining position.

[Kylie]

If that offer for 4K more is somewhere else and looks good then I would jump on it. I wouldn't work for a boss who shouted at me like you mention, that's very very sh*t management.

[Biker Biggles]

Out of frying pan into fire?Do you like your present job and want to stay?If so fight for proper pay.If not consider the alternatives.Agree with the bit about **** management though.I'd have probably chinned him. :twisted:

[lukemillar]

Sounds pretty horrible, and I would be definately consider the other job. I'm so glad I work somewhere, where there is absolutely no dress code whatsoever, no managers or any real corporate heirachy! I did a temping stint at Royal & Sun Alliance - never, never again!

[lynw]

Why on earth do you still want to work there?

Frankly, Id be looking to work elsewhere.

And posting their name up on a hacking website. :wink: :P :twisted:

Just to point out the error of their ways of course without doing anything yourself... :wink:

Edit: just seen your last post. Accept the job and hand in your notice and move and get the 4k. Why on earth would you want to stay and work for a manager like that? Even if they offer 5k is it really worth the grief? Odds are the other company would be a lot better.

[Gnan]

being somewhat of a realist...

one of my mates thinks he should be earning 30k because he has a few qualifications and a years experience and continually moans about that, and refuses to do tasks at his company because he thinks he's above it - not the right attitude, and if it were me running the company he'd be out... you need to work hard if you want to get anywhere (not saying you aren't) but remember IT support workers are 10 a penny nowadays and therefore demand is lower and salaries go down.. so you might find it hard to barter.


i would say that a fair salary for the job you mentioned is 17-20k and at the end of the day other people's salaries should not be of your concern, it only strives to create a poorer working environment for everyone if people find out what others are earning and there is a disparity for perceived responsibility. if you've only worked there for 7 months that is hardly any time to offer an objective assessment of your skills! it took 2 years of hard labour before i got any sniff of decent money at my current job :D

my "key to success in 5 steps." is :

1. work as hard as you can
2. work outside the scope of your job and try to help out in other areas
3. learn new skills in your own time which are valuable to yourself and your employer
4. be professional at all times, no sickies, gossip, etc!
5. have an action plan and an objectives map and re-evaluate your posiiton every 12 months. try never to stay in a job if it is simply paying the bills.

sorry if this is negative, and i don't know your personal situation but i think a lot of people who complain about stuff like this could do with re-evaluating themselves and their attitudes before pointing the finger!

[kwak zzr]

i like step number (5)

ive been in the same job for 17 years just paying the bills :roll:

[Beenz]

I know exactly how you feel.

I worked for a company that is (gl)sadly now gone. Some good mates were there. I'd been working there for 17 years and just could not progress with my manager who had an ego larger than Brazil. He was superior and that was that. I'll not bore you with detail but because I'd been there (the same company but not the same job) for a long time and I was looked upon as "he's been with us for a very long time on that pay and has a house" so why pay more or treat him better? They did have a point. New starters were overtaking my salery in a few years and getting the benefits. They pay as little as they can get away with right. It's in business to make as much money as possible.

To cut the story short, I applied for an got offerred a better job, relocated 80 miles away have been treated like I should have been. I doubled my salary in 7 years. I've since changed job every three years or so which works for me.

Personally, If I'd been shouted at as you have for such a trivial thing I'd walk. You clearly have a portable and valuable skill set. Once I've sent my CV for a job, it's only a matter of time before I'm off. Do not threaten to go unless you can show the manager your offer. They will call your bluff, it's what they are tought to do, they react only whan the offer is there by which time it's too late.

Good luck!

[kwak zzr]

i like step number (5)

ive been in the same job for 17 years just paying the bills :roll:

i just hope my pension plan hold out :roll: thats all i'm really staying in my job for.

[Quiff Wichard]

yea but kwak-

u gonn ajust love this new postie soap on the TV..

)sorry derail)

I am self employed as I am un managaeable.. so i cant comment !

[Dave The Rave]

Well, you have to know yourself if a rise will make your work there any more enjoyable. You haven’t mentioned if you enjoy the job. You haven’t mentioned how you getting on with the other staff members. Would you have to travel much further if you accepted the new job?

There are many things one needs to consider. Based on the info you provided I would go. 4k rise and a fresh start sounds like a good idea!

[SpankyHam]

Thanks everyone.

EDIT: Now removed Privacy

Anyway I've got nothing to loose. I will ask for a rise. If I get it i'll stay there, if not take the other job offer.

[pegasus]

i would never allow anyone to talk to me like that it is belittling, degrading, humiliating and just plain rude.....i would go for the 4k hike and get outa dodge city pronto..let them sort out their own problems...or let them try and find someone else...so just do it...go on ....or you could just thump the bugger :wink:

[Lou M]

I'd walk. You've got another offer - don't hesitate.

Any Manager that speaks to his staff like that should be disciplined. You should treat others as you would expect to be treated.

And I'd dob him in about the password - that's basic security.

Nutty x

[Anonymous]

spit in his tea :lol:

[Tara]

spit in his tea :lol:

Trust you :lol:

[Anonymous]

spit in his tea :lol:

Trust you :lol:

now you know why ive never stayed in a job for more than 5 years :lol:

[SpankyHam]

I'm not worried about this k|/|0b (office manager)

He was over ruled by the company owner anyway & now all the girls in the office wear mini skirts & guys wear shorts.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

all the girls in the office wear mini skirts

That's why you're staying isnt it? :lol:

[Lou M]

I'm not worried about this k|/|0b (office manager)

He was over ruled by the company owner anyway & now all the girls in the office wear mini skirts & guys wear shorts.


Excellent! Nothing like telling a crap manager what you think!

[SpankyHam]

all the girls in the office wear mini skirts

That's why you're staying isnt it? :lol:

Now you cought me out :lol:

[pegasus]

you would look good in a mini skirt loverboy..or is that ladyboy...hmmmm :roll:

[northwind]

Therefore I purchased a couple of very smart casual 3 / 4 length trousers, which cost in excess of £200.


You spent £200 on a pair of shorts. Ergo, you earn too much money.

To be honest with you, in your situation money would be the last of my worries.

[Nick762]

but remember IT support workers are 10 a penny nowadays and therefore demand is lower and salaries go down.. so you might find it hard to barter.



This is a topic close to my heart right now.

I've been in the industry for 20 years, first as a hardware engineer, then systems and finally networks. I don't believe that people like me will be needed much longer with the way the technology is going, in fact I'd say in ten years time there will be a small number of highly paid system developers and programmers and the rest will just be box shifters. Networks will configure themselves and administrators will do little more than set up user accounts. Systems will need no more technical support than a pocket calculator.

This is one reason I'm looking at retraining now rather than being pushed out when I'm in my mid 50's. I feel a bit like a steam loco engineer in the late 1950s...

So far as cr*p managers go, I think there are more around now. There seems to be a trend towards management "by numbers" i.e. ticking the right boxes and following procedures, genuine dynamic management let alone leadership is becoming increasingly rare. At my place we are seeing more and more so called managers apearing at all levels and it's got to the point where the organisation is so clogged with red tape that a job that could be done in a couple of weeks two or three years ago is now taking months!

I'm hoping to find something less stressful like paramedic...

[sharriso74]

Too true desktops are managed by policies (if you're in a Microsoft enviroment) software installs done automatically. You now have cabless pathing racks.

There will always be a certain amount of support needed but wil become more training than fixing as queries become how do I? rather than This is broken.

[timwilky]

I have watched this thread with interest. Although I no longer have management responsibilities within my company I have been with them for 21 years and at one time was the manager of the IT dept with a headcount of 24 staff from highly trained and well paid developers down to system and network admins.

Firstly, the way that you handled your problem was totally out of order. Even if the office manager is not your line manager he has the responsibility of setting acceptable custom and practice and enforcing it. OK he should not have shouted, he was possibly annoyed that your immediate supervisor had oked something that he deemed unacceptable.

Going over his head with complaints will get you noticed but for the wrong reasons. You should have avoided being confrontational and instead wrote a proposed policy document for data and network security, explain why you need to impliment such a policy and the benifits and risks associated with adoption or failure to adopt.

Your letter comes over to me as bleating "I am so much better, and look what I do". To be honest it reads "I also do a junior IT operations and administration role". Get real the people who do this are generally earning about 10-12k and do it to get the first rung in an IT career. If somebody has offered you an extra 4K on top of your current salary, jump ship now. Because if you worked for me you would be on the bottom of my list for promotion with a total lack of regard for the management structure, what appears to be a giant chip on your shoulder and an over inflated ego.

Sorry I have never met you and my opinion may be all wrong. But this is the impression you leave me with.

I sincerly hope your career progresses well. But, you need to take stock of yourself and wake upto the fact that the world does not owe you anything.

[fizzwheel]

Too true desktops are managed by policies (if you're in a Microsoft enviroment) software installs done automatically. You now have cabless pathing racks.

There will always be a certain amount of support needed but wil become more training than fixing as queries become how do I? rather than This is broken.

I agree. To many of our helpdesk staff have naff all diagnostic skills. When things break as they invariably do they have not got the first idea on how to breakdown the problem, troubleshoot likely causes and then fix it.

Often they come and bleat at me and I point them in the right direction. Seems to me everybody is being trained as a call logging, box shifting monkey. I seriously think in a few years time there will be a skills shortgage for experienced high end techie's who actually know what they are doing.

[SpankyHam]

@timwilky

yeah right.

EDIT: Now removed Privacy


Reason why I took this Job in the first place was because it is permanent. My previous IT jobs have all been contracts for Projects.


Don't insult people if you don't know anything about them

[fizzwheel]

Don't insult people if you don't know anything about them

I don't think he was he was just offering his opinion.

.

[Demonz]

all the girls in the office wear mini skirts

That's why you're staying isnt it? :lol:

Now you cought me out :lol:

I thought I read you ruined your trousers from crawling around the office on your knees?? :?

Overall i think if you have earnt it then you deserve it. I would say to consolidate your points better when you write to your boss again - and discuss the finer details at a later stage when you get to sit down with them. i.e. Bullet point them and say you wish to discuss them in detail. That way nothing is on the record and you dont look like you have spent half the day writing it all down on their time. You start by saying this is a short follow up and 2 pages later... Look at it from a financial perspective and point out how much you have saved them over x period of time in the past and into the future - then justify the increase this way.

From their point of view they will only be looking at the cost of replacing you with someone cheaper that can acheive the same results. By focusing on some of the negatives you devalue yourself in their eyes - which is exactly the opposite of what you need to achieve here.

[SpankyHam]

Thing is - if I wasn't there they would get a local IT engineer in @£30/hour.

Just to clarify something, after sending this letter to the company owner, he rang me and told me that the Office manager was out of order and that he was not aware of the high amount of IT work that I carry out.

Then he said the usual ... due current financial situations we cannot increase your pay at the moment.

So they gave me 5 days extra holiday instead as compensation of bad treatment :lol:

I know I'm a great value to this company and that they won't find anyone else with IT , CNC Engineering & foreign languages qualifications.

[Demonz]

I reckon put your head down for 5 months and put in some serious work - approach them after 12 months again and point out how great you are and how much money and time you save them all. Get everyone to back your brilliance and ask then. If not you can safely move on noting the solid year on your CV and advising them you want something that offers more of a challenge and more money. They will then probably say well we cant offer a challenge but...

[K]

Therefore I purchased a couple of very smart casual 3 / 4 length trousers, which cost in excess of £200.


You spent £200 on a pair of shorts. Ergo, you earn too much money.

To be honest with you, in your situation money would be the last of my worries.

I'm agreeing with Northy here (I'm doing that alot lately :? ).

£200 on a pair of shorts! :shock: OK, 3/4 length - but they're still shorts**.

The cost of your shorts could feed me for about 4 months!


But hey, seriously, money aside, it sounds like you've got more issues with this manager really than with the company - that said though I've little idea on how to fix that other than the obvious of jump ship.
It sounds like a comparitively small company environment, is it? Would it be achievable to look to changing your 'chain of command' so to speak, or is the structure not that flexible?




** My smart/combat style 3/4 length shorts (the first I've owned for a long time - my legs haven't seen the light of day for about 18 years!) cost £5 in Tescos.
OK, so cos I'm teeny tiny they are actually meant for a 12/13 years old boy, but theirs no VAT on kids clothes. :wink:

[timwilky]

Patrick

I was not insulting you. As I said I have never met you and I can only comment on the impression that your published letter gave me. I have been a senior manager in a large multinational company and was expressing my opinion based on these impressions

I ended by hoping that your career progressed well. Is this the action of someone who was simply having a go?. Your response simply adds weight to my original impressions.

You said that you had to crawl under desks to do cable installs and carried printers and installed hardware. To my mind that is a junior task. you have now expanded some of the admin tasks you have undertaken. I am sorry but I still see these tasks as relatively low IT skill.

You need to look at where you want to be. Either within an IT dept or within an engineering discipline. It is a sad fact that engineers in the UK are poorly rewarded.

As for not knowing what I am talking about. Please, I have been an IT professional for 28 years.

[SpankyHam]

Patrick


You said that you had to crawl under desks to do cable installs and carried printers and installed hardware. To my mind that is a junior task. you have now expanded some of the admin tasks you have undertaken. I am sorry but I still see these tasks as relatively low IT skill.



Yes this was mentioned regarding the dresscode nothing else. And I agree these are junior tasks.


A shame you aren't my manager. We would get on so well </sarcasm>[