Brake dust seal has come out....Bugger

[creamerybutter]

Ok I was changing my brake discs and while the callipers were off I decided to give the pistons a little clean, I pushed the brake to push the pistons out (with the pads still in as I did last time) and one of the dust seals came out with the piston. Anyway I need to dismantle the calliper and replace them (and clean everything while I am at it) and I am fairly confident after reading the manual from the site that I know what to do but I was wondering if there is anything else I should watch out for that the manual doesn't warn you about.

Any advice wold be much apreciated.

[kwak zzr]

when i did my zzr i was just told that the most important thing was to keep everything really clean.

[Sid Squid]

Under no circumstances use brake fluid as a lubricant to ease fitting of the seals, buy some proper rubber grease and use it.

[lukemillar]

Did this recently - As Sid say uses red rubber grease on the seals. The stuff is actually quite hard to find - I had to order it online from some MG owners site as Halfords and some locally run car places didin't have any.

[Viney]

Could you use Any rubber lubricant?

[petevtwin650]

I was told that the dust seals aren't very important, especially if you clean the brakes regularly as you need to on Sv's. Why is it a big No No to use brake fluid to lube the seals though?

[creamerybutter]

Cheers guys.

I was told that the dust seals aren't very important, especially if you clean the brakes regularly as you need to on Sv's. Why is it a big No No to use brake fluid to lube the seals though?

I figure they are there for a reason and as my brakes haven't really been cleaned that many times in 15500 miles and they are still the original seals they could probably do with a change anyway. The callipers need a good clean anyway.

Also anyone know where to get a peice of hose from (silly question I know but I have no idea).

[Viney]

Cheers

I was told that the dust seals aren't very important, especially if you clean the brakes regularly as you need to on Sv's. Why is it a big No No to use brake fluid to lube the seals though?

I figure they are there for a reason and as my breaks haven't really been cleaned that many times in 15500 miles and they are still the original seals they could probably do with a change anyway. The callipers need a good clean anyway.

Also anyone know where to get a peice of hose from (silly question I know but I have no idea).

its BRAKES

That is all :lol:

[creamerybutter]

Thats what I said... 8-[

[creamerybutter]

Under no circumstances use brake fluid as a lubricant to ease fitting of the seals, buy some proper rubber grease and use it.

Why? I was reading the manual again and it says that you should put brake fluid on the seals :?

http://upload4.postimage.org/688566/manual.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/688566/photo_hosting.html)

[northwind]

When trying to clean and rebuild calipers, you can take it for granted that the piston you want to work on will never be the one that comes out under pressure. Brake calipers can smell fear.

Frosts restorers sell rubber grease by the mighty 500g, last you forever tub, along with various other hard-to-find, good-to-have stuff. I like their style, they delivered my package in a hob nobs box packed with crunched up pages of the daily sport :) Professionalism.

Could you use Any rubber lubricant?

Fnarr.

[Viney]

We are inquisitive, but i would trust Squids advice. Im sure he will be along in a while to tell us why, although i think its been said before, somewhere.

[creamerybutter]

I sure there is a good reason, and I was only checking the manual again to make sure I know what I am doing.

On a related note seals cost £50 ish for a full set from Suzuki! For eight little rubber rings! :shock:

[21QUEST]

To be honest I've always mainly used braked fluid without any problem until recently. Kawasaki and Honda recommend brake flud as well. Well Honda actually some years have recommended grease.

Sid did make a post a about why brake fluid as a lubricant may not/is not the best. I thought about and looked into it and it would seem to make sense than what is in the manual so I now use grease. I just make sure with the seals seated any excess in the bore is removed by having a good wipe with a flintless cloth.
For the pins I use silicon grease.

The most important bit in the rebuild procedure is to make sure the grooves where the seals seat is cleaned thorougly. You may really have to go to town to the the worst of the crud off.

You should end up with something looking like .... :lol:

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/956/callri8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



Cheers
Ben

[creamerybutter]

Will I nedd to buy a pizza first? :P

What is the best thing to use to clean out the groves properly? Also what is the best way to extract the pistons cause the manual says to use compressed air but i don't have any of that.

Also I am assuming that I just drain the fluid out of the air bleeder valve.

[21QUEST]

The pizza is a must :lol:

Wood will do nicely for cleaning the grooves. I do have some ally picks that I sometoimes use if certain parts are really bad.

To get the pistons out I use a 13mm thick plate between the pistons and the open end of the caliper(pads out). You should be be able to use one of the old pads if you are changing pads at the same time. Always keep an eye on them to make sure they don't accidentally move and allow a piston to pop out before you need it to.

With a 13mm plate/pad the pistons are almost out but not quite. Once all four are butting against the plate then remove the plate and the piston should fall out with a bit of a wiggle.

No you don't drain the fluid out of the bleeder valve. Everything is left as it would normally be till the pistons are out. Oh , don't forget to top up the reservoir as you pump the pistons out to stop air geeting as the level drops.

Don'r forget some new washers as well for the banjo bolts. for when you put it back together if taken off the bike(my prefered way). I also like to clean one caliper at a time and that the pistons go in the same bore they came out off.

Cheers
Ben

[andyaikido]

Frosts restorers sell rubber grease by the mighty 500g, last you forever tub, along with various other hard-to-find, good-to-have stuff. I like their style, they delivered my package in a hob nobs box packed with crunched up pages of the daily sport :) Professionalism.

Class :lol: you just don't get that kind of service from Demon Tweeks.

[timwilky]

some manuals would indicate that the main brake seals are a wedge profile, ie there is a different internal diameter at either side. The genuine suzuki seal I have used dont seam to have this feature, certainly not a differance I can see or measure

[jambo]

If you've still got rubber hoses you can clamp off the hose just above the caliper with mole grips and some card to stop it marking. I use some spanners to stop each piston moving out much more than the other. Clean the whole lot up in a bowl of hot tap water. I find the tricky part is often getting the seals out and use a plastic fork with 3 of the 4 prongs snapped off to get in behind it (no expense spared). Remember you are looking down into the caliper and both edges of the recess for the seals need cleaning, including the one that's tricky to see. :?

Sid Squid has made a very nice little tool by taking a nail and grinding it so it's head looks like a triangle with rounded edges. The spikey end has been knocked into a 4" piece of broom handle. It's ace. :D

[creamerybutter]

No you don't drain the fluid out of the bleeder valve. Everything is left as it would normally be till the pistons are out. Oh , don't forget to top up the reservoir as you pump the pistons out to stop air geeting as the level drops.

Don't I have to drain all the fluid as I am removing and dismantling the callipers?

[jambo]

Don't I have to drain all the fluid as I am removing and dismantling the callipers?

No. And clamping the rubber hose off with a set of mole grips keeps mess to a minimum.

[creamerybutter]

Don't I have to drain all the fluid as I am removing and dismantling the callipers?

No. And clamping the rubber hose off with a set of mole grips keeps mess to a minimum.

Sorry I just notice you posted while I was posting :oops: That makes things a little nicer :)

[northwind]

It's not a bad time to change the fluid, mind.

[creamerybutter]

How often should it be changed?

I if do replace it do I just drain it all from the bleeder valve?

[lukemillar]

Every 2 years.

TBH I would change the fluid. Since you are overhaulling the brakes, then brand new fluid is only a couple of quid extra so why not.

Yep I pumed it out of the bleeder valve. Just remember to tie some old T-shirts or rags around your paint work as it is easily bugger-up-able!

[northwind]

I always have a hose or bucket of water standing by :)

[creamerybutter]

Well I can't seem to find red rubber grease anywhere locally so I have orderd from Frost, I wonder if I will get mine wrapped in the Daily sport or not :lol:

I am also going to change the fluid while I do the breaks :p waits for Viney

[creamerybutter]

Ok I was in for a pleasant surprise when I got to the dealers, they thought there was only a dust seal and piston seal per pack but there is in fact two so only around £25 :D

I am currently trying to get all the brake fluid out of the callipers. I have put a tube on the bleed valve and took the top of the reservoir and pumped the leaver which got most of it out but there is still a bit in the calliper that came part way down the tube them went back into the calliper and I won't come out if I pump the lever. What do i do to get that out? Or do I just take the calliper off with it in?

[jambo]

pop the caliper off anyway, put a small plasrtic bag or similar round the bottom of the hose to keep the mess down. Anything that's left in the system will be replaced when you add the new fluid anyway :wink:

[21QUEST]

I am currently trying to get all the brake fluid out of the callipers. I have put a tube on the bleed valve and took the top of the reservoir and pumped the leaver which got most of it out but there is still a bit in the calliper that came part way down the tube them went back into the calliper and I won't come out if I pump the lever. What do i do to get that out? Or do I just take the calliper off with it in?

Ok I didn't word my last post well. In a rush to go out plus I hate typing :? .

When I said 'No' that was because you need the pressure in the system to get the pistons out. Once the pistons are out , the fluid will be drained ie two bird with one stone :? :wink:

If you unbolt the calipers now you'll more than likely have a bi*ch of a job getting them out. As the piston are forced out you need to top up the reservoir to stop air entering.

Don't take the calipers off unless you have compressed air to force the pistons out.
The other option if the calipers are have been taken off is to use a pair of mole grips. Put cardboard inbetween the jaws to protect the pistons to try and pull them out. Even with protecting the piston surface you may end up marking them.

Cheers
Ben


PS: With regards to getting the pistons out , hope don't sound like I'm trying to show you how to suck eggs :wink:

[creamerybutter]

Oh.

The pistons are almost all the way out at the moment as it is though.

[21QUEST]

Oh.

The pistons are almost all the way out at the moment as it is at the moment thought.

In that case ignore me , rip the calipers off and go have some fun :lol:.

Cheers
Ben

[creamerybutter]

Check out my mastery of the English language....:oops:

Fun? :? Well it takes all sorts :P

Pistons on the one side came of with a little persuasion (not much mind) just two more to go.

Whats the best stuff to use to clean everything up? Everything is rather dirty and I recon hot water would need a little help, Kwak would have a heart attack. Is it not a worry scratching the inside of the calliper etc?

[jambo]

You can get a high solvent brake cleaner which works wonders, but you want to keep it away from any seals that will be used again as it's not that great for them according to Dr Squid. I find some hot water and an old toothbrush work well, plus some old plastic cuttlery to scrape off any stubborn bits without scratching the caliper

[creamerybutter]

Cool cheers.

[21QUEST]

More or less same as jumbo. I use Hein Gerick bike cleaner and hot water.
A good rinse under the tap :roll: and give it a little twirl to rid off as much water.

I then place it with the banjo inlet downwards, and let it dry with the fan blowing air onto it. Sit back and admire your handiwork..(told you it was fun) :) .

To clean the rubber boots I use a bit of kitchen paper to get rid of as much of the manky grease before the actual cleaning of them. What ever you don't use a cleaning substance containing such as paraffin , gunk. You want to be able to rinse off with water.

Now have a pizza or alcho-pop :? and you can start on the second.

Cheers
Ben

[creamerybutter]

Bugger, the other two pistons won't come out with me just wiggling them like the others did. So I guess it's either finding some compressed air dealie or putting it all back together again and doing what you said in the first place as I am not to keen on using mole grips as if I scratch the pistons they are buggered right.

[northwind]

Pretty much, yeah. A tiny amount of scarring is OK, though not desirable, best not to.

Never tried this, but I've heard that you can get them out with a cavity bolt...

http://www.userview.net/images/wallplug-plaster.gif

They start out straight like a bolt, but expand when you scrwe them in. Stick it into your piston, tighten up, butterflies expand to inner walls of pistons and grip, pull out with a twisting motion. Doesn't matter if you scratch the inside face. Might just be internet advice that though.

[21QUEST]

Bugger. That was what I was worried about.

Northy ,that'll be a big one then :) or is that a normal size fro them.

If it were me I'll re-attach the one I'm having problems to a spare master cylinder/line and get it out that way.

Cheers
Ben

[northwind]

Dunno, every one I've seen's been big enough.

[MattTheLoony]

I sure there is a good reason, and I was only checking the manual again to make sure I know what I am doing.

On a related note seals cost £50 ish for a full set from Suzuki! For eight little rubber rings! :shock:

I just ordered a set from suzuki for less than half of that. Hopefully they've sorted me the correct ones and the full set but he said it was both sides, inner and outer.

[creamerybutter]

I sure there is a good reason, and I was only checking the manual again to make sure I know what I am doing.

On a related note seals cost £50 ish for a full set from Suzuki! For eight little rubber rings! :shock:

I just ordered a set from Suzuki for less than half of that. Hopefully they've sorted me the correct ones and the full set but he said it was both sides, inner and outer.

Yea, the dealer thought there was only one set of seals per pack (at about £12.50sih) but there are in fact two set of seals in the pack so only £25 ish. :D

Northwind: I was wondering about something that could grip the inside but I think I am going for the reattachment route.

Also the washers on the banjo bolts, are they special washers I should get from Suzuki or would any washers the same size do?

[northwind]

They're crush washers, so you do need specific copper washers for the purpose... But I'm sure you can use other makes, not just Suzuki. I used Triumph ones a while back and they worked fine, for example.

[21QUEST]

Buy the crush washers from a proper bike shop and not Main dealer :lol: or from a main dealer that does proper bike bits and not just manufactures bits.

Once I was desperate for some and I almost told the parts guy(yeah I know not his fault) to 'you know what'. The price was **** take. IIRC it cost more than the sump waher which would make it more than 30p :shock: .

You should be able buy them direct from Hel I think. I tend to buy sort of in bulk.

Cheers
Ben

[lukemillar]

Buy the crush washers from a proper bike shop and not Main dealer :lol: or from a main dealer that does proper bike bits and not just manufactures bits.

Once I was desperate for some and I almost told the parts guy(yeah I know not his fault) to 'you know what'. The price was p*ss take. IIRC it cost more than the sump waher which would make it more than 30p :shock: .

You should be able buy them direct from Hel I think. I tend to buy sort of in bulk.

Cheers
Ben

Aye - HEL sell them for 12p each. They are slightly smaller than the stock ones as they are designed to work with HEL lines and banjos, but are still good.

[creamerybutter]

I have finally had the seals and I have put the one calliper back together and re-attached everything so I could refill the system to get the other pistons out. I have filled the reservoir and open the bleeder valve and started pumping the lever but I was there for ages and the fluid didn't seem to be going down, how long should it take or do I need both valves open (I only have one peice of hose)?

The washers cost 62p each :shock: but the next nearest bike shop is right across town so getting there would negate the saving.

[21QUEST]

Just to make sure I've got this right.

You have not cleaned the calipers out yet as you still need to get the pistons out(stuck one). Correct?

Ben

[creamerybutter]

It's ok it took ages but I have got the other pistons out. I had cleaned and put the one calliper back together then attached them both back to the lines and pumped the fluid though then pumped the pistons out with the lever.

Although I have managed to loose two of the most expensive washers in the world #-o and I need more brake fluid but all is now going t plan. Although the left calliper was much dirtier than the right for some reason.

[creamerybutter]

Finaly got everything back togeather and it all works :D just need to bleed the brakes leter and it should be job done.

Cheers all for you help, very much appreciated :thumbsup: