Vegetarians .. Vegans and the like …

[gettin2dizzy]

This girl clearly states where the line is drawn
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/172845/next_top_dumb_model/

[LouLou]

No, its because we have evolved to the top of the food chain, and are capable of ovecoming adapting and controling our surroundings and enviroment to meet our needs and wants.

Therefore Natural selection and Darwin say we are above all other animals, hence we get to choose which ones to eat!!

In that case we shouldn't complain when nature gets the upper hand and we get eaten :D especially as we seem to be unable to control the size of the human population in check...

It's a fact that nowadays people eat a far greater amount of meat than years ago before intensive farming, people often see meat as the main part of the meal whereas before it could be considered almost as a 'garnish'.

Thing is the human population has doubled since the 60's, eats more meat and is more aware of how finite natural resources are...the amount of energy involved in meat production is vast...far more goes into producing it than we get back from it, land, waste, water, transport etc. etc. (None of this even taking animal welfare into account).

To produce 1 kg of beef requires around 9 kg of cereal grain; for pork the approximate ratio is 4:1 and for chickens 2:1. When we were all watching Band Aid and Live Aid the Ethiopian government was exporting grain for animal feed...people weren't starving because there was no food...they were starving because they had no money to buy food. Also, as you go higer up the food chain, the pesticide/chemical content of the food stuff is more concentrated...and surely nobody REALLY thinks man boobs are attractive ;)

[gettin2dizzy]

Just remember veggies, my food ****s on yours ;)

[Warthog]

Just remember veggies, my food ****s on yours ;)

HAHAhaha yeah.

My mates girlfriend got invited to a VEGAN barbeque! I mean, vegan!? She said even the potato salad hadn't got mayonnaise! So what, it was just... potatoes? She said it was the worst thing ever. At least if you are veggie, accept it, and stop trying to pretend you are eating meat :-P

[Viney]

Cows are one of the lagest contributors of Methane into the earths atmosphere...sooooo... this degrades the ozone layer....sooooo...its all the Veggies faults that global warming exists.

Eat more cows!!

[sinbad]

I eat what I'm prepared to kill myself. I don't object to anyone's choices in this argument, but I do object to the "meat is food not a dead animal" ignorance of a lot of people. Know what you're eating, where it came from, how it lived, which part you're eating, how it died.

[skint]

Don't assume that every vegetarian is such because they have an overwhelming love of animals though I admit it probably accounts for most.

I like vegetables and can happily eat a non meat meal. But I like meat too but never have a lot of it - simply because that's how I like it.

I don't like animal cruelty but believe you can still be a meat eater.

I have no objection to wearing leather clothing but prefer to belive the whole animal is used e.g. for food, clothing and anything else. I do object to animal products where they have been killed just for a fashion or crazy Chinese medicine:-s . I have relatives in northern Canada and when I was about 10 or so they sent me a present of a wallet made from seal pup skin - disgusting, i've never been able to understand the mentality.

Bacon and tomato for dinner tonight - sorry vegans:roll:

[RhythmJunkie]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rEkc70ztOrc

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VAN6G8sBNIE

[yorkie_chris]

Cows are one of the lagest contributors of Methane into the earths atmosphere...sooooo... this degrades the ozone layer....sooooo...its all the Veggies faults that global warming exists.

Eat more cows!!

Methane has NO interaction with ozone.

Not directed at you in particluar, but I get really annoyed when tree huggers, do-gooders and damn hippies try to preach at you and don't even know the first thing about whatever b*ollocksthey're chatting about!

[neio79]

. Know what you're eating, where it came from, how it lived, which part you're eating, how it died.

I do and i am happy that animals died so i can happily scoff on a big far burger or steak!! ;) At least the abitoirs can do a good job of it where as i would make a meal of it (no pun intended).

And i have before killed, and guttted my own food( rabbits and chickens admitadly)

I also partake in phesant shooting:thumbsup: good fun watching my dog do what it was bread for!

[Blue_SV650S]

Methane has NO interaction with ozone.

But it is a 'greenhouse' gas ... and 10 (or is it 20?) times as 'bad' as CO2 per volume!!! not good :flower: :cry:

[yorkie_chris]

Aye, but it still doesn't destroy ozone, CFCs do, and no ozone = skin cancers etc. Whereas greenhouse gasses = slight temperature rise.

Its the principal of it.

[Blue_SV650S]

Aye, but it still doesn't destroy ozone

I know that, you know that, but no need for a pedant - the point was that methane is really bad for the environment, so what if they got the context/facts slightly wrong!!! ;)

I also reckon veggies phart more than carnivores ... :nomore: :smt003

The basic way to reduce meat consumption and the need for battery farming is to reduce the population ... I say kill 2/3 of human carnivores on a purely random basis ...

Just so they don't feel left out and not to show prejudice, kill 2/3 of the herbivores too!! :D

job done!! :)

RhythmJunkie - nice find on youtube 8)

[yorkie_chris]

Can we start with chavs please! :smt067

[Blue_SV650S]

Can we start with chavs please! :smt067

No, as that shows prejudice and you are a stones throw from being Hitler Mk2!! ;)

random/blanket kills is the only humane way to go, you can be an executioner, but will also have to be in the random lottery!!:smt066:smt003

[hovis]

No, as that shows prejudice and you are a stones throw from being Hitler Mk2!! ;)

random/blanket kills is the only humane way to go, you can be an executioner, but will also have to be in the random lottery!!:smt066:smt003

is the master race an exception?

[yorkie_chris]

Chavs can't be part of the lottery, we're allowed to shoot rats and other pests!

[hovis]

http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/pictures/ThreadHijack/thread_direction.gif

[timwilky]

I would welcome a return to reality.
Meat is animals, beef =cow, pork=pig, lamb/chicken etc. live. the quality of your food is reflected in the quality of their lives.

Please don't buy your meat from your supermarket. where they could not give a damm apart from taking your money. Support your local butcher. He knows the farms/abattoirs he buys from. At least that way the meat you buy and eat has some providence.

When you learn about meat. The cuts, the age, the curing process etc. You will despair that something you thought of as natural has been man made for decades.

I grew up selecting a sunday chicken/ breaking its neck, plucking and drawing. I still shoot my game. I buy my meat from local farmers and butchers. the same with my veg.

Know your food, you would not go into a chemical plant and eat the waste. Dont eat second hand waste

[toonyank]

In New Zealand (http://www.stuff.co.nz/AAMB4/aamsz=300x44_MULTILINK/4147483a6009.html) they won't jump your bones if you're a carnivore...

First of all which one is Nichola and which one is Hans?

All I can say is if we don't eat the poor cows and sheep of the world then they would surely over populate and then there's over crowding, domestic violence, drug problems with the cattle adolescents, the list goes on.......... can someone pass the mint sauce?

[RhythmJunkie]

After I embarrassed myself the other day by completely forgetting about the importance of aerodynamics on maximum velocities through air I will hold back on arguing with anyone for a while. I don't usually make big mistakes like that but hey its been a hectic few months where bankruptcy was waving its sharpened sythe at us.
Hopefully all that is behind us but before I swing wildly off topic (oops too late) try this Chris, its only the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun), but after reading mountains of evidence from both sides of the scientific community I am in no way convinced about the whole climate change scenario as its being thrust upon the general populace!
The liars sicken me and the publics gullibilty saddens me....what to do...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece

Just one sensible restrained voice in a world full of scare mongering madmen who are driven only by political desire.

[RhythmJunkie]

All I can say is if we don't eat the poor cows and sheep of the world then they would surely over populate

They only exist because we breed them for food. If we started eating elephants instead of cows then there would be millions of elephants in elephant farms across the world, simple economics!
Haven't you noticed that the only large animals which exist in 'vast' numbers are domestic ones?

[yorkie_chris]

I am in no way convinced about the whole climate change scenario as its being thrust upon the general populace!

Me neither, it's been reduced to pop science, I do agree with saving energy as much as possible (waste not want not), but there are a lot of campaigners making a lot of money out of this. Hence the scaremongering and exagerating any statistics, like the graphs that go up in a steep line, where the x is 100 years and the y is 0.001degree! Good thing the sheeple don't look at common friggin sense.
:smt076

Chris

[neio79]

for all you vegies out there, i am about to go off and gorge myself on fresh Pork from the spit at my vilages annual hog roast and beer festival:D

[RhythmJunkie]

At least us veggies won't get foot 'n' mouth disease! :sick:

[sinbad]

for all you vegies out there, i am about to go off and gorge myself on fresh Pork from the spit at my vilages annual hog roast and beer festival:D

Meat eaters enjoying telling vegetarians about all the meat they eat is like car drivers enjoying telling bikers about how "a lad got killed on one of those round our way t'other week". Very odd. Enjoy.

[Blue_SV650S]

Meat eaters enjoying telling vegetarians about all the eat they meat is like car drivers enjoying telling bikers about how "a lad got killed on one of those round our way t'other week". Very odd. Enjoy.

Quite, it is just not called for and lets face it, has no effect except making the person who said it look a plonker!! :D

Also there are some that seem to think depriving an animal of its life - so you can live on - is something for amusement ... that's just sick.

Sure I eat meat, but I don't crack jokes or make light of the fact that something has been killed - and purely so I could fill my belly ... I also don't think modern mass farming is particularly pleasant ... I am not in ignorance of how my food arrives on my plate ... so tend to not think of these things when I am tucking into a nice bacon butty - but I am not about to make light of the fact either ...

I can almost guaranteed the majority of carnivores - if they had to physically kill and prepare the meat they ate - well wouldn't be active carnivoures very much longer! ;)

[RhythmJunkie]

I eat Tuna about 6 times a year the reason being that they get to swim in the ocean for several years before being caught!
Does that make me a semi-veggie?:confused:
I also have goats milk in coffee (won't go near cows milk), and eat chickens eggs occasionally (free range)!

A bloke at work went on that Atkinsons diet thingy cos he was fat. 6 months on he's still fat! :rolleyes:

I was 18 stone and in 10 months went down to 13 stone just by going vegetarian and cutting out all animal and dairy products. My wife went from 13 stone down to 9 stone too. None of my kids are overweight and my daughter is almost top in her class so its not affecting their learning abilities either!
With so many positives I can't see why people take the pish! :confused:

I do miss pork steaks, bacon butties, chicken kiev's, bacon & poached egg sandwiches, braised steak in gravy with fresh home made bread to dip, I'd better stop now I'm feeling hungry! :)

[yorkie_chris]

I can almost guaranteed the majority of carnivores - if they had to physically kill and prepare the meat they ate - well wouldn't be active carnivoures very much longer! ;)

I do. And I enjoy meals I've hunted, killed and cooked myself much more than supermarket cr4p. (but I suppose I'm the minority here)

[RhythmJunkie]

And I enjoy meals I've hunted, killed and cooked myself much more than supermarket cr4p

I just had a vision of you wrestling a cow to the ground with a 10" Bowie and a box of fire lighters! ;) :mrgreen:

[Blue_SV650S]

I just had a vision of you wrestling a cow to the ground with a 10" Bowie and a box of fire lighters! ;) :mrgreen:

:mrgreen:

[yorkie_chris]

Rofl!

[MiniMatt]

After I embarrassed myself the other day by completely forgetting about the importance of aerodynamics on maximum velocities through air I will hold back on arguing with anyone for a while. I don't usually make big mistakes like that but hey its been a hectic few months where bankruptcy was waving its sharpened sythe at us.
Hopefully all that is behind us but before I swing wildly off topic (oops too late) try this Chris, its only the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun), but after reading mountains of evidence from both sides of the scientific community I am in no way convinced about the whole climate change scenario as its being thrust upon the general populace!
The liars sicken me and the publics gullibilty saddens me....what to do...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece

Just one sensible restrained voice in a world full of scare mongering madmen who are driven only by political desire.

Interesting article, slightly degraded in weight as the author has a vested interest in his book sales so I wouldn't go quite as far as to say it's a balanced view. I suppose I go along with a lot of the climate change stuff because the outcome of policies aimed at tackling climate change should be the kind of stuff we should be doing anyway, regardless of climate change - energy efficiency, recycling etc. We'll run out of oil (well, for modern practical purposes) pretty soon (maybe not our life time though) so drives toward cleaner renewable energy is a winner regardless of whether it has any effect on the climate.

Back on the veggies - study after study shows veggies live longer, evidenced now by cheaper life insurance policies for veggies. Question: Is this longer life a result of a veggie diet, or is it a result of veggies simply being more thoughtful about what they eat? Veggies think more about their food, is it this that gives them the longer life or is it the diet?

[Ceri JC]

If it's down to ethics, you'd best sell your bike and stop crossing the road. There's supposed to be some very small degree of animal extract in tarmac!

(I used to be a vegetarian so I'm allowed to take the **** ;))

[RhythmJunkie]

Veggies think more about their food, is it this that gives them the longer life or is it the diet?

A bit of both really. Most veggies I talk to are indeed wised up on food poisons.
If you stick a finger up to the meat & dairy industry then your diet becomes almost devoid of dangerous fats and excess calories. If you avoid the pies and savoury pastries then your salt intake is drastically reduced.
You don't get 'any' growth hormones or antibiotics in veg or fruit.
They get you one way or another, genetically modified veg & fruit + pesticides. Again avoidable by not buying everything from a supermarket!
Low fat, salt & body weight = longer life, not just longer but healthier!
Then all you need to avoid is the flouride, mercury, aluminum, barium, MSG etc.,etc.

After being veggie for about 5 years just the smell of raw meat makes us feel sick, now thats what I call a natural reaction because the smell of raw veg & fruit never have!

It wouldn't be so bad if the industry didn't poison their products to make more money. They use so many that the udders get canker sores which weep puss into the milk which dissolves and is not filtered out. Enjoy that cup of tea now won't you? :)

Oh there are lots of reasons for turning your back on the meat & dairy industry but you don't have to turn your back on meat. Just go to a trusted source for your produce like a local organic farmer!

There are so many lies told us. The latest foot & mouth (outbreak?) is more alarmist nonesciense(sic)! The illness is a bit like you getting the flu. The animal gets ill, gets over it and carries on. A few may end up lame if not looked after properly while ill, the meat is not affected. They kill & burn hundreds of thousands of animals for what? A public alarming excercise! The farmers only fear it because they know the gov'bods will come & butcher all their livestock! :-dd

This is how I see things.
You own a lot of land, you are rich, you decide you want more but its all taken. You release F&M to a few local farms, put the farmers out of business and buy up their land which they willingly do because they are bankrupted!
Is there any wonder they s**t themselves when there's an outbreak?

Make sense? :-dd

Why else would the government not vaccinate? Because 'they' would lose control over the land!

[ASM-Forever]

This debate has rumbled on for too long.....Meat=munch :)

[RhythmJunkie]

Meat = big big man titties! :smt103 :rolleyes:

[northwind]

There are so many lies told us. The latest foot & mouth (outbreak?) is more alarmist nonesciense(sic)! The illness is a bit like you getting the flu. The animal gets ill, gets over it and carries on. A few may end up lame if not looked after properly while ill,

This isn't really the case... Foot and mouth can cause myocarditis and death (mainly in the young), and chronic weight loss. It can also cause mastitis and total loss of milk production, which is a bit of a bigger deal for cows with calves, though obviously bad news for dairy herds. The lesions are wide open to secondary infections, and no doubt not much fun for the cow either... As for "if not properly looked affter when ill" that's a bit of a cheek frankly, in a large herd with a severe outbreak it's never going to be practical to constantly treat each animal for the two weeks it can take to recover, and permanent damage is a possible outcome regardless of care.

[RhythmJunkie]

So why not vaccinate? Why slaughter and throw away?
The same argument could be thrown at many illnesses. You only die from HIV due to secondary illnesses not the disease itself.

The "if not looked after properly" is not cheek NW ;), its based on observation. I've lived in Derbyshire my whole life and have seen it go from a beef & dairy area to predominantly sheep, the abuse of animals here is legendary....it makes me sick! Some farmers really do treat their animals as if they are not even living things, just toys for their amusement!

In the very young and infirm the influenza virus 'can' cause myocarditis and even death in humans but luckily its only pensioners who succumb to that one!

Mastitis....hmmmm....that would be the same mastitis which is often caused by over use of antibiotics, growth hormones and lack of hygeine wouldn't it....albeit a different cause.....maybe??? ;)

[northwind]

The "if not looked after properly" is not cheek NW ;), its based on observation. I've lived in Derbyshire my whole life and have seen it go from a beef & dairy area to predominantly sheep, the abuse of animals here is legendary....it makes me sick! Some farmers really do treat their animals as if they are not even living things, just toys for their amusement!

In the very young and infirm the influenza virus 'can' cause myocarditis and even death in humans but luckily its only pensioners who succumb to that one!


Yeah, but "Some farmers abuse animals" is a big jump to "It's possible to treat severe sores several times a day for a large herd of animals, every day for 2 weeks". Small farms just don't have the manpower.

As for "Can", death from foot and mouth is a very common result in young cattle. And not just because we shoot them in the head and chuck them on a fire :rolleyes:

I don't know the arguments for or against vaccination, it used to be unreliable and have a risk of actually causing the disease, and there's a number of different strains to vaccinate against, but past that I haven't a clue.

I think you're drawing a bit of a wrong assumption here though, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying about the treatment of beef and dairy herds at all, just picking up specifics on F&M.

[RhythmJunkie]

I just read as much as possible back in 2001 when the last 'epidemic'?, was happening and talked to a few local farmers about their fears to gain as much knowledge as possible and came to my own conclusions.

Its very easy to get sucked into the news (lies) at 10 explanation of everything but most people still rely on that kind of info.

I do...I admit....distrust everything I hear on the news until I have researched it! My problem is remembering all the information crammed into my head! :smt048 It hurts! :confused:

http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/features/footnmouth/truthfandm.html

A basic explanation...not lies....maybe a bit simplified but it beats "lies at 10"! ;)

[RhythmJunkie]

I don't know the arguments for or against vaccination, it used to be unreliable and have a risk of actually causing the disease, and there's a number of different strains to vaccinate against

Funny you should mention that NW cos that is the current thinking about the influenza virus and any future bird flu outbreak.

If you get the 'flu jab' then you walk around giving everyone the flu because you can then be a carrier without going down with it fully yourself. You may still get the snnezies and cough a bit for a few days but you won't get full-blown flu. Just everyone else you come into contact with will get it....so vaccination can be a very bad thing....what the drug industry want is for this to continue so more and more people will get so sick and tired of getting flu 3 times a year they will happily go to the docs and get a flu jab...currently around $21 a pop in the States....blindly becoming another carrier.... and on it goes. Where does all the money come from to pay for all the drug companies vaccines? Tax of course...its your money! NHS money? Still your tax!

Clever innit? :)

Back in the 60's a certain person ah'rumsf'em'ld was heard to say, just before he became a big player in Monsanto Pharmaceuticals that, "It's a pity we can't make them ill so we can sell more drugs!" and do you know what? People don't believe this you when you tell them....they think its too far fetched to be true....they wouldn't do that to us, thats silly......well guess what!

No it isn't! :)

[northwind]

That link's bloody awful mate, within about 10 seconds I found this:

"The current wisdom theorises that FMD is viral in nature."

"The resultant illness and lameness causes decreased appetite, a drop in milk yield, a drop in productivity, and of course, increased care costs. Afflicted animals almost always recover, usually within a week or two. Death occurs in only 5 percent of cases (2), and the meat is fit to eat (3)."

There's absolutely no doubt that it's a virus, that comment's obviously only made to try to undermine the opposing position, but without any attempt to provide an alternative- it's argument by rumour. This is a pretty low tactic, tabloid stuff. FMD was demonstrated to have a viral cause over a hundred years ago.

Then "Almost always recover" is thrown out, right beside a 5% fatality rate, the two obviously contradict but the article just rushes past this to give the impression that 5% is minor. It also ignores that a lot of these symptoms continue past the 2 weeks mentioned- decreased milk yield can be permanent (and total), and loss of bulk takes months to recover from and can have other health impacts. No mention of secondary infection from the open sores.

Amusingly (to me at least) it then tries to link in false-positive HIV diagnosis... False positives for ELISA on HIV are substantially below 1% at worst, yet this is described as "a very high number of "false" positive HIV diagnoses". So 95% is "Almost always" but >1% is "very high" ? You can't play games with numbers like that and be taken seriously.

It also links this: "Foot and mouth is as serious to animals as a bad cold is to human beings. So why the concern?" I don't recall bad colds killing 1/20 of all people who get them, do you?

[Blue_SV650S]

Wow 15 pages ... that's cool ... and I didn't even need to wind anyone up!! :smt005

Ok lets get back down to more philosophical stuff than FMD!! :D

Veggies ...

It's clear than many farmed animals have a pretty ropey existence ... but they were only ever born because of the food demands ... if you took away the demand (everyone became a hippie :colors:) then the trade would cease and all those potential cows and chickens etc etc would never have the opportunity of life ... isn't that tragic in itself??

By not eating meat are you not robbing many animals the chance of life?!? ... Is it not better to have lived a short life than none at all?!!?? :confused:

Discuss!! :cool:

[sarah]

By not eating meat are you not robbing many animals the chance of life?!? ... Is it not better to have lived a short life than none at all?!!?? :confused:



no

[Blue_SV650S]

no

Well ok, but please explain yourself young lady!! ;)

[sarah]

stuff

no

Well ok, but please explain yourself young lady!! ;)

hmmmm, well, if you haven't been born then you can't really miss being alive

[Blue_SV650S]

hmmmm, well, if you haven't been born then you can't really miss being alive

When you are dead you don't really miss it either, coz you are like ... dead!!! :D ... but at least you had a life :smt059

I think it is a tricky one ...

[northwind]

You cannot kill that which does not live! Though, that's more for zombies than cows.

[sarah]

When you are dead you don't really miss it either, coz you are like ... dead!!! :D

yup, i agree
... but at least you had a life :smt059

I think it is a tricky one ...

i disagree

[sarah]

Blue, surely you can think up a better question than that

[Jabba]

Used to share a house with a vegetarian young lady. She did some of the loudest farts I've ever heard - her (then) boyfriend confided that on some occasions she could "lift the duvet" :lol:

[Blue_SV650S]

Blue, surely you can think up a better question than that

Look it is either that or I start asking if veggies spit or swallow, which line of questioning it to be?!?! :D

[sarah]

Look it is either that or I start asking if veggies spit or swallow, which line of questioning it to be?!?! :D

i already answered that question in another thread. you'll have to do a search to find my answer though;)

[sinbad]

By not eating meat are you not robbing many animals the chance of life?!? ... Is it not better to have lived a short life than none at all?!!?? :confused:

Discuss!! :cool:

It's a deep ethical question.

Does the horror/trauma/experience of death (regardless of if they feel any pain, noone knows what it's like do they?) outweigh the joy of a captive animal's short life? Who are we to say yes or no? How much different would a cow's life be if it was living in the wild and hunted by prey? Would it be better or worse?
questions questions

I think we'd all agree that it should not be acceptable to treat farm animals poorly just because they are only meant for the supermarket shelves.

[RhythmJunkie]

She did some of the loudest farts I've ever heard

Oh no the F'plan diet pish-take....I speak from experience....veggies do not fart for England....its a myth....its a jealous rumour.....meat eaters sh*t smells like dog-sh*t, I'm sorry but its true.

Bananas....now they tend to give you a bit of wind but they are difficult to digest, around 8 hours I think.

NW I'll get back to you....going to bed for now....up early!

[Warthog]

meat eaters sh*t smells like dog-sh*t, I'm sorry but its true.

Oh no, our poo smells like...poo! Thats because we can eat stuff that our bodies are designed to digest, not like sweetcorn which just goes straight through and makes veggies poo look like corn on the cob.

[sarah]

Oh no, our poo smells like...poo! Thats because we can eat stuff that our bodies are designed to digest, not like sweetcorn which just goes straight through and makes veggies poo look like corn on the cob.

teehee. eating lots of sesame seeds makes amusing looking poo too.

[Warthog]

teehee. eating lots of sesame seeds makes amusing looking poo too.

Hehe yeah I went through a period of eating seeded Granary loaf. Result: seeded granary poo :tongue:

[RhythmJunkie]

Mornin'..... NW ...I think that link was cramming lots of little quotes into too small a space without proper credentials. All the quotey bits come from vets, farmers and the like so I tend to believe them even though we don't see their words emblazoned across The News of The World front page!

I researched the qoutes this morning and they all seem fairly cosher! Its not a link I've used before....just plucked at random.

I have spent day after day reading up on hundreds of pages of this stuff from both sides and putting the disease aside for a moment there is far more to these outbreaks of BSE and F&M than you would imagine....its a far more politically motivated script than people realise.
I have spoken to farmers who said back in 2001 that the problem was blown up out of all proportion to reality!
The only thing they really feared was losing their livelihood and animals they'd reared without proper compensation leaving them penniless after sometimes 30 years building up a successful business.

The very high 1 in 20 death rate you mention is probably related to pigs which are the most seriously affected. With sheep the number of fatalities is far lower more like 1 in 50 this doesn't look like a lethal epidemic virus wiping out whole flocks/herds as we are led to believe by the media now does it?

They blamed the spread on everything from car tyres to hill walkers to stray dogs to wild birds, talk about a government in a state of panic!

It will soon be called? Agro'culture like it is in America. :rolleyes:

In 2001 our abatoirs were closed down due to F&M. The livestock were exported 'live' to country's where F&M in endemic where they were slaughtered, packaged along with meat from those other countries and imported back into the UK with labels such as 'produce of France' or 'produce of Potugal' didn't know that did you? ;)

[LouLou]

Back to Blue's question...

I don't think a life of misery (broiler chickens etc.) ended in a slaughterhouse is better than no life at all. Even if the animals involved don't know any better it doesn't make their lives worth living.

If we were born into a similar environment as far removed from what is natural as possible would that be better than never having existed at all?

[RhythmJunkie]

Sorry if that was a bit off topic but it was to do with agriculture...ok weak link... :rolleyes:

To a meat eater who is accustomed to smelling their own toiletry deposits it does smell normal because you are used to it.
To a veggie your poo smells exactly the same as a dogs, why, because you both eat meat. If the dog ate sweetcorn it would have yellow polka-dot-poo too! :)
I like sweetcorn but it does seem a bit indigestable! :(

I never said we can't eat meat...I said we started off as veggies a long long long long time ago and through necessity started eating animammals! At this period in archealogical history the first weapons have been discovered which enabled us to kill animals more easily without expending too much valuable energy. At this same period animal bones were discovered buried along with human remains for the first time so its pretty well proven that we started off as veggies!
The newly invented weapons also led to war where we found we could, by killing each other, protect our own food stocks, behaviour which can be seen in many other animal species! e.g. A Goshawk will kill Sparrowhawks and Tawny Owls to protect its food stocks in its own territitory.

So in future you won't have to kill veggies in times of need cos they are no threat to your food stocks! :) Could just do it for fun though! ;)

The veggies might kill all the meaties cos their animals would be eating all the veg'! :)

[Blue_SV650S]

Back to Blue's question...

I don't think a life of misery (broiler chickens etc.) ended in a slaughterhouse is better than no life at all. Even if the animals involved don't know any better it doesn't make their lives worth living.

If we were born into a similar environment as far removed from what is natural as possible would that be better than never having existed at all?

Well that viewpoint could easily be coupled with debate on terminating human foetus that have been tested as likely to be born disabled/diseased etc … although standard of living might be greatly reduced or a struggle, is that reason enough for them not to be born???

I think it is a tricky one!!

[RhythmJunkie]

Yes LouLou it would be like being born into a 6x6 prison cell for the first 6 months of life then being shot in the head while still in nappies....oh I'm sorry all you meaties....you didn't realise that the lamb you eat is never more than 6 months old when killed often even younger! Oops! :rolleyes:

Baby killers! :)

Silence of the lambs! :)

[sarah]

Well that viewpoint could easily be coupled with debate on terminating human foetus that have been tested as likely to be born disabled/diseased etc … although standard of living might be greatly reduced, is that reason enough for them not to be born???

I think it is a tricky one!!

that's not really a fair comparison/analogy. the animals we are talking about haven't even been conceived yet.

[RhythmJunkie]

Blue...If the same logic were applied to the jews who were gassed the argument could be used that they had had a good life as musicians and carpenters and had children and lots of sex and so the 3rd Reich was fully justifiable in killing them!

Somehow I just don't think that would be acceptable do you?

[Warthog]

Blue...If the same logic were applied to the jews who were gassed the argument could be used that they had had a good life as musicians and carpenters and had children and lots of sex and so the 3rd Reich was fully justifiable in killing them!

Somehow I just don't think that would be acceptable do you?

Maybe if it ate them it was justified...

[Warthog]

oh I'm sorry all you meaties....you didn't realise that the lamb you eat is never more than 6 months old when killed often even younger! Oops! :rolleyes:


I think it is fairly obvious seeing as Lamb is a baby sheep hahaha

[sarah]

this conversation was way more amusing when we were discussing poo

[Blue_SV650S]

that's not really a fair comparison/analogy. the animals we are talking about haven't even been conceived yet.

Accepted, but I think the bigger divide is that when we start talking about humans, all values change ... why is that?!

[RhythmJunkie]

I have been plagued with severe migraines and arthritis all my life but the thought that if my unborn foetus were seen to have these defects I would be terminated chills me to the bone! :confused:

[sarah]

Accepted, but I think the bigger divide is that when we start talking about humans, all values change ... why is that?!

i think religion has a part to play in it.

[RhythmJunkie]

Blue....blame religion mate! It sets us apart and above all other living things!

Thats one reason I have absolutely nothing to do with it!

[RhythmJunkie]

Oi slow down

[Blue_SV650S]

Blue...If the same logic were applied to the jews who were gassed the argument could be used that they had had a good life as musicians and carpenters and had children and lots of sex and so the 3rd Reich was fully justifiable in killing them!

Somehow I just don't think that would be acceptable do you?

They were killed through hatred, there was no 'purpose' to it ...

Anyway, aside from that major difference, sure they were persecuted at the end, but until Adolf came along they did indeed presumably have a ‘good’ (or at least normal) life … something nasty stopped their life prematurely … speak to any cancer patient/widow and ask them if they think that the their life was not worth living as it came to a premature/tragic end - even taking into account all they suffered near the end!! ;)

It isn’t that black and white people ;)

[LouLou]

In response to Blue's point about aborting foetuses...I don't think you can fairly draw a parallel as people aren't mass farmed purely to feed another species. Also, there is a difference between being born with disabilities or even in a vegetative state to being born and raised in the animal equivalent of a thai prison...in the case of poultry...overcrowded, hot, smelly, the only reason the animals can sustain life is because they are fed a cocktail of drugs/chemicals, light levels are controlled to ensure the animals are awake and feeding as much of the time as is possible...they can grow so quickly that their bones are unable to take the weight of their massive bodies...dead birds often remain amongst the live ones, the birds start to cannibalise one another....etc. Lets not forget that they have all their senses in tact...every sentient creature has a will to survive and feels fear, stress etc. when that survival is threatened.

I for one would not like to be severely disabled or have any of the problems that lead people to have abortions but many people who have these issues have managed to overcome them to an extent and have some quality of life. Perhaps when parents decide to terminate these pregnancies they are not just thinking about the quality of the child's life but also how their own will be affected which is fair enough.

It's about quality of life and I believe we have a responsibility/duty of care towards the animals we choose to farm for food and under intensive farming conditions that duty of care is not being met and that in those instances it's better not to exist.

[Blue_SV650S]

i think religion has a part to play in it.

I think you are right ... are there any deeply religious veggies?

Oh and it is humanity as a whole, not just religion that make out ‘we’ are above all others …

[RhythmJunkie]

they did indeed presumably have a ‘good’ (or at least normal) life … something nasty stopped their life prematurely

Like a slaughterman? That would be Goebbels?

Oh and it is humanity as a whole, not just religion that make out ‘we’ are above all others

Describe! I have only come across christianity that has this particular peculiarity!
For example Hindus have an unhealthy respect for cows! Lots of them are veggies too....connection? Human....respect....animal?

[Blue_SV650S]

In response to Blue's point about aborting foetuses...I don't think you can fairly draw a parallel as people aren't mass farmed purely to feed another species. ..

What about kids that would be so severely disabled/ill they have to live their short lives on dialysis (or whatever) or spend most of it in and out of hospitals? They are only able to be kept alive with assistance?!? At least the animals are being borne with a purpose ...

I’d say that we have many levels here, the severely disabled/ill that might be coupled to mass farmed animals who have a very low standard of life, and then lightly disabled that could be coupled with a ‘free range’ chicken or a cow that lives in a field …

The free-range and lightly disabled are an easy call … but what about the severely disabled and mass farmed?!?!

[RhythmJunkie]

are there any deeply religious veggies

I can't think of a religious vegetarian. All the veggies I know think religion is just fairy stories! Although some have other spiritual yearnings, which could be seen as a contradiction but at least they leave christianity alone which for the past 2000 years has been the dominant destructive religion!
Islam looks like being the next one but not if the all forgiving christians have anything to do with it huh?! :rolleyes:

The free-range and lightly disabled are an easy call

Not really....have you seen the film Logans Run? Poulation control view of the future. This had already been talked about by the powers that be back in the 1950's which is where the idea for the film probably came from!

Doctors are already admitting to spending less resources on the very old and infirm to make sure that the younger tax earners are kept healthy. Makes good business sense I s'pose!

[sinbad]

What about kids that would be so severely disabled/ill they have to live their short lives on dialysis (or whatever) or spend most of it in and out of hospitals? They are only able to be kept alive with assistance?!? At least the animals are being borne with a purpose ...

I’d say that we have many levels here, the severely disabled/ill that might be coupled to mass farmed animals who have a very low standard of life, and then lightly disabled that could be coupled with a ‘free range’ chicken or a cow that lives in a field …

The free-range and lightly disabled are an easy call … but what about the severely disabled and mass farmed?!?!

Ahh but there is a major difference. One is unfortunate, the other is intentional and planned. Would you conceive the severely disabled humans intentionally, knowing the sort of life they would have? I know I wouldn't. But that's a far cry from aborting one post conception.

[LouLou]

What about kids that would be so severely disabled/ill they have to live their short lives on dialysis (or whatever) or spend most of it in and out of hospitals? They are only able to be kept alive with assistance?!? At least the animals are being borne with a purpose ...

I’d say that we have many levels here, the severely disabled/ill that might be coupled to mass farmed animals who have a very low standard of life, and then lightly disabled that could be coupled with a ‘free range’ chicken or a cow that lives in a field …

The free-range and lightly disabled are an easy call … but what about the severely disabled and mass farmed?!?!

I don't agree that being kept alive with assistance, be it by dialysis or similar could be compared with an existance the equivalent to being kept in a cell, knee deep in sh@t, ammonia burning your lungs, your legs and the skin of your abdomen while those in you're immediate vicinity are in a similar state of misery and are also picking on and wounding you, you have no means of escape. Think of it in terms of a human living in those conditions. You wouldn't think that they had a quality of life better than a dialysis patient who other than their ilness leads a life closer to ours.

What if the person in the cell had a purpose...that their being in the cell was for a greater good (that they were unaware of as are the chickens) would that make their life worth living, would you be happy in that environment?

Many people overcome severe disabilities, illnesses...what would you class as severe disability? Stephen Hawking? The guy who played superman and became paralysed from the neck down? The guy from Todd Browning's 30's film 'Freaks' who despite being only a torso and a head could could light up and smoke a cigar amongst other things unassisted and became famous? What about the woman who's been immortalised as a sculpture...the thalidomide lady who doesn't have working/usable arms and legs but has successfully managed to lead as close to a normal life as possible and bring up a child?

I still think the person in the cell would argue that their quality of life was worse...

[northwind]

Mornin'..... NW ...I think that link was cramming lots of little quotes into too small a space without proper credentials. All the quotey bits come from vets, farmers and the like so I tend to believe them even though we don't see their words emblazoned across The News of The World front page!

I researched the qoutes this morning and they all seem fairly cosher! Its not a link I've used before....just plucked at random.

The very high 1 in 20 death rate you mention is probably related to pigs which are the most seriously affected. With sheep the number of fatalities is far lower more like 1 in 50 this doesn't look like a lethal epidemic virus wiping out whole flocks/herds as we are led to believe by the media now does it?


The 1/20 rate I quoted was from that article :) In fact, everything I mentioned was taken directly from that article, including the idiot vet with the "common cold" comment, and the ludicrous HIV comparison. The ELISA bit was what pushes it over the edge, whenever you get people linking in completely unconnected conspiracy theories you know you're on shaky ground. There's 5 paragraphs on mis-diagnosis, of which 4 are about a different virus and factually flawed, tells you something, no? When you don't have any evidence to back up your report, talk about something else! More argument by rumour. It's just a very bad conspiracy piece.

As a general rule, anything that's headlined "The Truth About" is going to turn out to be c**p :)

[Blue_SV650S]

...
Hey, I have said I think that mass farming is hideous/disturbing, so you don't need to highlight the squalor to me ;)

However, I am still not convinced that bringing humans into this world knowing they will have a lower standard of living is that far removed from breeding animals for mass farming. We don’t even ‘need’ more humans!!! ;)

Ok, so if we already have a foetus then indeed, it is at a different level at that point. So lets take that out of the running and just view it form ‘high risk’ parents choosing to go ahead. I.e. those that have a high probability of having a child with problems … I am not so sure that is that far removed …

A child that will spend all its life hooked up to a machine or in a hospital ward etc etc has a very low standard of living compared to a 100% healthy child … all a chicken or cows can hope for is to run round a field!! :D

Personally I think the EU should put in tighter regulations re mass farming and the way animals are kept. I don’t think it should be stopped, just standard of living improved … sure meat prices will rise, but so what?

[sarah]

Personally I think the EU should put in tighter regulations re mass farming and the way animals are kept. I don’t think it should be stopped, just standard of living improved … sure meat prices will rise, but so what?

you hippy!;)

[Blue_SV650S]

you hippy!;)

:smt025

Not quite, I think we should slaughter 2/3 of the humans to make the problem of the need for MASS farming go away!! ;)

I think we need less humans, not more animals :tongue:

[sarah]

:smt025

Not quite, I think we should slaughter 2/3 of the humans to make the problem of the need for MASS farming go away!! ;)

I think we need less humans, not more animals :tongue:

that could work!

the roads would be great too if they weren't so busy.

[Blue_SV650S]

that could work!

the roads would be great too if they weren't so busy.

It solves a lot of 'problems' ... like pollution, famine, stripping mother earth of her resources etc etc

I tell ya, its the humans that are the problem!!

Who would vote me in as world leader?!!? :smt036

[sarah]

It solves a lot of 'problems' ... like pollution, famine, stripping mother earth of her resources etc etc

I tell ya, its the humans that are the problem!!

can't disagree with that


Who would vote me in as world leader?!!? :smt036

depends if i was one of the people you plan on slaughtering

[ASM-Forever]

On topic, although there are some instances where im disgusted with how animals are kept...in reality it doesn't stop us, as consumers, from perpetuating the cycle. We all know KFC is made from retarded chickens...but we still buy it. The Colonel has pulled a fast one in this instance. I personally will buy the meat i think looks the best...factory farmed or free range.

I wouldn't be overly happy if the EU spewed out more legislation...and in reality think of the expense of enforcing these standards. Meat/animals would just be imported from overseas where the standards are lower.

You also have to think of the impact on the farmers. Could they afford to make the transition...free range is hardly cost effective. Also what about exports of British meat to overseas....the price rise would put an end to that. Then again BSE/Foot&Mouth has done a good job of that.

Whilst some people might construe this response as a cheapening of life...we have to consider animal stock for what it is....essentially we are growing food. In an ideal world(i hate that phrase...) the animals would lead rich fulfilling lives and when they die of natural causes we munch them....its not practical though is it.

To a limited extent i agree that the enimals should be kept in reasonable conditions...but in reality if the meat is of the same standard i would always buy the cheaper one, factory farmed or not.

[ASM-Forever]

Pollution, famine, mother earth and talk of veggies etc.

Blue you have changed...and not in a good way :)

Dr.ASM prescribes one 4x4 used liberally and a drive thru(with the engine left running as you order/pay) at the glorious golden arches of McDonalds. Redemption is at hand.

[Blue_SV650S]

Pollution, famine, mother earth and talk of veggies etc.

Blue you have changed...and not in a good way :)

Dr.ASM prescribes one 4x4 used liberally and a drive thru(with the engine left running as you order/pay) at the glorious golden arches of McDonalds. Redemption is at hand.

I have always liked mother earth and animals, its the humans I despise, it is humans that are the plague and I don't know why everyone gets so uptight about keeping!! :tongue:

[Blue_SV650S]

depends if i was one of the people you plan on slaughtering

It would have to be random ...

Or for the females we could employ a variation on a technique my mate uses when he hires his female assistants … the applicant puts her hands behind her head, she then walks towards the wall, if her elbows touch first, she is asked to leave as she will not be required!! :D

[ASM-Forever]

It would have to be random ...

Or for the females we could employ a variation on a technique my mate uses when he hires his female assistants … the applicant puts her hands behind her head, she then walks towards the wall, if her elbows touch first, she is asked to leave as she will not be required!! :D

There is a massive flaw in that scheme.....what happens if she is heavily pegnant, or just incredibly obese. Unless he likes fatty's in which case carry on.

[sarah]

There is a massive flaw in that scheme.....what happens if she is heavily pegnant, or just incredibly obese.

i was wondering that too

[Blue_SV650S]

There is a massive flaw in that scheme.....what happens if she is heavily pegnant, or just incredibly obese. Unless he likes fatty's in which case carry on.

Now that is just insensitive!! :D

[RhythmJunkie]

I think we should slaughter 2/3 of the humans to make the problem of the need for MASS farming go away!!

Its coming and its not too far away now mate. ;)

[RhythmJunkie]

I have always liked mother earth and animals, its the humans I despise

You are a hippy!!! :)

[Blue_SV650S]

You are a hippy!!! :)

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/HPM/HM26~Tree-Hugging-Hippies-Posters.jpg

Cartman is the coolest!! :D

[RhythmJunkie]

Yep....he's looking out of our living room window along with Kenny! :)