Decent article about countersteering

[markmoto]

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=advance-en&FC2=/advance-en/html/iwgen/leftnavs/zzz_lhn5_2_0.html&FC3=/advance-en/tailored/shell_for_motorists/motorcycles/advance/you_your_bike/riding_tips/rt_counter_steering_ga_2101.html

[AndyW]

Just looked at article after, anatomy of a corner, and am very worried by their "right line". Unless they are talking about on a racing track, then why the white line?
Going that close to the white line on a blind 90 degree corner is asking to be wiped out by a car going slightly too fast and drifting over.

[johnnyrod]

I have read countless countersteering threads, so I get a bit pedantic about it. Gyroscopic forces have nothing to do with countersteering. As for the throttle balancing the bike's wish to fall up or down, I think that's tosh too, it's what you do with the steering that determines it, the action of the throttle/brakes is there but it's not the main thing. Try this which seems to come at it from all angles:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=686
Sorry if I sound whiny, it's a soap box!

[jonboy99]

I have read countless countersteering threads, so I get a bit pedantic about it. Gyroscopic forces have nothing to do with countersteering.

Yup, the bike wanting to go straight on when the bars are turned is most of what causes it to lean - which is why the bike doesn't flop straight onto it's side when the wheel is turned to full lock when bike is on the back wheel.

[jonboy99]

Just found this link via that site above - amazing the lengths people will go to but proves once and for all that gyroscopes have nowt to do with it!
http://www.losethetrainingwheels.org/default.aspx?Lev=2&ID=34

[markmoto]

A bike wants to follow a straight line due to the gyroscopic effects of the wheels which due to there weight on a motorbike are significant, to get the bike to turn you have to redirect these forces to enable the bike to lean and turn! If gyroscopics have nothing to do with it then why does a stationary bike want to tip over unless you hold it up yet a moving one doesnt?? Also why is it that the faster you go the more the bike wants to follow a straight line??

[markmoto]

Gyroscopic precision

Whilst you counter steer, gyroscopic forces are the force you steer against. The gyroscopic force that's created by the 2 wheels wants to have the bike upright. If you should fall or jump off (Please don't try thishttp://www.my2wheels.co.za/), the bike will lift itself back up to a 90-degree angle an continue in a straight line until it hits an obstacle, or the speed is to slow in which case it will make a sharp turn, then drop to the floor. This is because of the 90-degree lateral force created by the forward motion. You might notice that the greater your speed, the greater force is needed to counter steer. But this is necessary to have a stable ride. Stability does not only come from the gyroscopic force, but also from the Trail!

taken from that article proving countersteering has everything to do with gyros.

[jonboy99]

Gyroscopic precision

Whilst you counter steer, gyroscopic forces are the force you steer against. The gyroscopic force that's created by the 2 wheels wants to have the bike upright. If you should fall or jump off (Please don't try thishttp://www.my2wheels.co.za/), the bike will lift itself back up to a 90-degree angle an continue in a straight line until it hits an obstacle, or the speed is to slow in which case it will make a sharp turn, then drop to the floor. This is because of the 90-degree lateral force created by the forward motion. You might notice that the greater your speed, the greater force is needed to counter steer. But this is necessary to have a stable ride. Stability does not only come from the gyroscopic force, but also from the Trail!

taken from that article proving countersteering has everything to do with gyros.


What you have written suggests only that gyroscopic forces resist the bike turning - nothing to show that they are the prime mover in making it lean. The '90 lateral force' i think is centripetal force only wanting to stand the bike up. The link I posted shows an experiment which directly disproves the gyrocopic theory - what do you think of the that bike with 4 wheels?

And - please explain how a wheelying bike which are frequently shown with the front wheel cocked right over does not slam onto it's side on the ground if gyroscopic forces are so prominent? A bike with both wheels on the floor with this amount of steering lock on certainly would.

[stuartyboy]

:smt062

[toonyank]

A bike wants to follow a straight line due to the gyroscopic effects of the wheels which due to there weight on a motorbike are significant, to get the bike to turn you have to redirect these forces to enable the bike to lean and turn! If gyroscopics have nothing to do with it then why does a stationary bike want to tip over unless you hold it up yet a moving one doesnt?? Also why is it that the faster you go the more the bike wants to follow a straight line??

This is my opinion.

In lay terms, try locking the steering and see if it is any easier to stay upright when in motion than when stationary. I bet you'll find it's about the same, very difficult.

This is because we make slight adjustments in steering to compensate for imbalance and in most cases it's involuntary. It has nothing to do with gyro effects. It's more of an inertia thing. This is what I sumise.

You can push a bicycle on its own and it will ride on its own because of inertia (the tendancy for a body to remain in motion) making automatic or involuntary steering adjustments for balance until friction slows the bike and it falls due to gravity. If you lock the steering it can not make these adjustments and it will fall much earlier.

This is my opinion and I'm in favour of the non gyroscopic bike article.

[toonyank]

:smt062

I agree, we all seem to be physicists but I know I'm not, I'm just comming up with my best logical guess :D

[Sid Squid]

Gyroscopic forces have nothing to do with countersteering.

Gyroscopic forces have everything to do with countersteering - turning the bars one way makes the bike lean the other - as mentioned above; gyroscopic precession. This is why the speed at which you turn the bars affects the speed at which the bike takes a lean angle.

[jonboy99]

Gyroscopic forces have everything to do with countersteering - turning the bars one way makes the bike lean the other - as mentioned above; gyroscopic precession. This is why the speed at which you turn the bars affects the speed at which the bike takes a lean angle.

No, the gyroscopic forces have very little to do with countersteering - as mentioned above. How do you explain the fact the 4 wheeled bike in the link http://www.losethetrainingwheels.org...px?Lev=2&ID=34 (http://www.losethetrainingwheels.org...px/?Lev=2&ID=34) goes around a corner?

[markmoto]

Gyroscopic forces have everything to do with countersteering - turning the bars one way makes the bike lean the other - as mentioned above; gyroscopic precession. This is why the speed at which you turn the bars affects the speed at which the bike takes a lean angle.

Im with you bruv ;)

[markmoto]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_02/ALBERTEINSTEIN_468x611.jpg

Ask this dude he will sort this out :D

[sinbad]

I don't think anyone is claiming that gyroscopic forces (gf) have very little to do with keeping the bike upright, are they? Yes we could "keep the wheels beneath us" with the steering alone, but if the gf isn't there we'd be stuffed if we took our hands from the bars, much less stood up on the pegs to adjust our leathers.

How much it actually has to do with countersteering (cs) I don't know. To my mind, cs is the act of deflecting the wheels to one side and out from underneath the balanced mass of the bike/rider which naturally begin to fall the other way because the balance which was keeping it in a straight line is "lost". This would occur whether the gf was there or not, but the result is obviously affected by the level of gf at play.

[yorkie_chris]

Consider this one, somebody built an ice bike with a ski front end, it still had rake and trail like a normal front.

Guess what, you still had to countersteer.

[Jase22]

Can't even be bothered reading the tosh about having to countersteer, it's something that's automatic when you lean your bike over. If you want to ride better or improve cornering, less jabbering on and more bike time. Simple. :rolleyes:

[yorkie_chris]

Aye, but I find when I consciously countersteer its much easier, and makes it turn in much quicker and easier.

[johnnyrod]

Okay I'll try to make this as clear as I can from my understanding, so I hope it helps! I believe all this is in the posts above, somewhere.

Gyroscopic forces do indeed try to stop the bike falling over. The precession is what allows you to steer while wheelying (DON'T touch the front brake!).

Countersteering is simply turning the bars to make the bike fall over. It has to fall over or it won't go roud the bend. If it falls over all the way it'll hit the ground, so you have to readjust the bars to balance it out. Gyroscopes don't come into this (part of steering), it's the same thing as if the bike starts falling one side and you didn't use the steering to correct it.

The other reason a bike can be ridden with no hands is the geometry helps the front end correct itself, in the same way you can push a bicycle around only by the saddle. The rake and trail are set up to balance out turning in speed and stability, and gyroscopic forces keeping the bars straight against them turning by themselves to keep you shiny side up.

Finally yes if you lock the forks the bike falls over. The steering needs to be free to allow the corrections needed to stop it falling over. Proof, in fact, of countersteering vs. gyroscopes?

[wheelnut]

Can't even be bothered reading the tosh about having to countersteer, it's something that's automatic when you lean your bike over. If you want to ride better or improve cornering, less jabbering on and more bike time. Simple. :rolleyes:

The tosh about countersteering is interesting and teaches how the bike turns.

YOU dont lean the bike over, you countersteer and the bike leans over.

Follow the CSS training and it will show you exactly how countersteering works. It also teaches about throttle position, and counter counter steering

[yorkie_chris]

counter counter steering? whats that then?

[wheelnut]

counter counter steering? whats that then?

CSS teach it in level 2 to get the bike upright quicker and back on the throttle earlier.

It comes with the training that teaches you to use every bit of the track or road.

If you have more space, you have more time.

[yorkie_chris]

So basically it's countersteer the bike back to upright?

I tend to do this if theres a need to flick it into an opposite handed bend