Leave the UK?

[Razor]

I'm so sick of the grey skies, traffic and general attitude of the inhabitants.
I need to get out of here, like today...

Damn, first need to sell SV and bike gear, sell house and a lifetimes collection of consumerist rubbish.

So it's more like tomorrow really.

Watch this space.

[Sideshow#36]

My mates off to Oz. Lucky git!

[Razor]

Nah, don't fancy OZ. They have the worst drought going on at the mo.

I was thinking more like Belize.

[leemole]

can i hide in ur cases ?

[Sideshow#36]

Been to belize, not all its cracked up to be but it was with work

[SV Muppet]

It's not just the weather, this whole country's gone past the dogs and getting worse every day!:nomore:

[Ol Boc]

It's not just the weather, this whole country's gone past the dogs and getting worse every day!:nomore:

Mr Muppet, I give you two quotes:

"For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Ask not what your Country can do for you; ask what you can do for your Country." John F. Kennedy

So what are YOU doing about it?

[Filipe M.]

"Ask not what your Country can do for you; ask what you can do for your Country." John F. Kennedy

So what are YOU doing about it?

Leaving? ;)

[svJvJ]

can i come?

[SV Muppet]

So what are YOU doing about it?[/quote]


I have no loyalty to this country or the people.
I choose to leave so that is what I will do.

[laMon]

a word of advice...grass is always greener blah, blah blah...

before you emigrate, sell house and all those bits collected over the years, why not try to move to the place you want to spend the rest of you life in for say...6 months (rent a house to trustworthy friends!). see if it's all what you think it is...:smt111

[Balddood]

So what are YOU doing about it?

I would just like to point out that the first steps i would take would be to round up all the illegal immigrants, muslim extremists sand anyone else who doesn't contribute to the economy / rapes the economy so that my fellow British people would at least have a sporting chance of a better lifestyle, and send them back to where they came from. Before someone throws the "racist" rattle from their prams, i would like to say that i am not racist, i am merely a British person who is proud to be so. Now back to the point. In order to make a start on bringing this country back in line, it would be necessary to get rid of the deadwood and concentrate on our own people for a change. However, seeing as "our" government seem to be a collection of mamby-pamby, do-gooding, pink-fluffy, politically correct halfwits, it would seem that instead of doing so, we just seem to be taking in more and more immigrants (illegal or otherwise) who see that the benefits system in this country is easy to pilfer and generally make haste at doing so. Again, i'm sure the PC police will be along shortly to show me the error of my ways and point out that the above isn't the case at all and that we should welcome them with open arms and let them take shelter from the evils which are provailing in their own countries. You would, however, be wasting your breath. I am also well aware that we have our own scroungers who love to sit at home all day on their idle backsides watching tricia etc, whose only aim in life is to knock out as many kids as possible, live in a council house paid for by the average tax payer, on benefits provided to them by the average tax payer, which they use to buy enough alcohol / recreational drugs to get them by until the next giro appears on the doormat. These would be the next target. Get those that can work, to work or stop their benefits.

Now, everything i have posted above would by no means make our beautiful country / community any better on it's own but it would make a start! It would seem though that by being British, i am the underdog in my own country. I have human rights, but not as many it would seem as someone who has come to my country in order to escape the atrocities which are happening in their own.

Therefore, you may as well take no notice of anything i have just said because much like a British citizen's opinion, it means nothing.

Sean

[Grinch]

Yer go on then, laters.

[Pedrosa]

Mr Muppet, I give you two quotes:

"For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Ask not what your Country can do for you; ask what you can do for your Country." John F. Kennedy

So what are YOU doing about it?

Ol Boc you missed a rather key quotation from your list...

"· Fook this I'm off." Peter Henry May 1990.

Poor old Sean is very bitter and twisted about affairs in Old Blighty isn't he?

[Balddood]

Poor old Sean is very bitter and twisted about affairs in Old Blighty isn't he?

Not bitter, twisted maybe. Either way, I am correct. I suppose i could always pack up and move to Spain, that might be an idea :D

Sean

[Pedrosa]

Fella I understand your pain believe me.

[Spanner Man]

Evening all.
Whilst I have no objection to immigration in principle, as it's part of the natural progression of the worlds population, I have to agree with Baldood on a number of issues.
Namely, so called economic migrants, (as opposed to those being persecuted) really have no true justification to be here, therefore should only be allowed in if they can contribute to our economy. (400.000 Polish Citizens is more like an invasion, rather than them exercising their new found freedom).
Indeed we should 'come down hard' on spongeing layabouts in our system, be they immigrant or not.
Our Government are indeed a bunch of Pansies, who frankly lack the mettle to stand up to anyone. Hence they allow the country & it's people (including immigrants & those of immigrant descent) to be walked on by anyone who cares to, from individuals, to Brussels, & the good old USA.



Cheers.

[Hazzar]

I would just like to point out that the first steps i would take would be to round up all the illegal immigrants, muslim extremists sand anyone else who doesn't contribute to the economy / rapes the economy so that my fellow British people would at least have a sporting chance of a better lifestyle, and send them back to where they came from. Before someone throws the "racist" rattle from their prams, i would like to say that i am not racist, i am merely a British person who is proud to be so. Now back to the point. In order to make a start on bringing this country back in line, it would be necessary to get rid of the deadwood and concentrate on our own people for a change. However, seeing as "our" government seem to be a collection of mamby-pamby, do-gooding, pink-fluffy, politically correct halfwits, it would seem that instead of doing so, we just seem to be taking in more and more immigrants (illegal or otherwise) who see that the benefits system in this country is easy to pilfer and generally make haste at doing so. Again, i'm sure the PC police will be along shortly to show me the error of my ways and point out that the above isn't the case at all and that we should welcome them with open arms and let them take shelter from the evils which are provailing in their own countries. You would, however, be wasting your breath. I am also well aware that we have our own scroungers who love to sit at home all day on their idle backsides watching tricia etc, whose only aim in life is to knock out as many kids as possible, live in a council house paid for by the average tax payer, on benefits provided to them by the average tax payer, which they use to buy enough alcohol / recreational drugs to get them by until the next giro appears on the doormat. These would be the next target. Get those that can work, to work or stop their benefits.

Now, everything i have posted above would by no means make our beautiful country / community any better on it's own but it would make a start! It would seem though that by being British, i am the underdog in my own country. I have human rights, but not as many it would seem as someone who has come to my country in order to escape the atrocities which are happening in their own.

Therefore, you may as well take no notice of anything i have just said because much like a British citizen's opinion, it means nothing.

Sean
Well said my thoughts exactly the problem is no one is doing anything about it:confused:

[timwilky]

Please don't tar all immigrants to this country with the same brush. I know a few who came here after the fall of the shah who now employ a couple of hundred brits, pay more in than a million a year in tax and have contributed to my local environment.

There is nothing wrong with "economic migrants" if they are here to work, pay tax and contribute to society. It is the moaning idle brits who complain they cannot get a job because the poles have taken them that should be kicked out. If a pole is willing to do it, surely a brit would have had first opportunity and walked away.

[Balddood]

Please don't tar all immigrants to this country with the same brush.

Now go back and re-read what was originally said about "illegal immigrants and anyone else who doesn't contribute to economy / rapes the economy". I don't think anyone said they were all wasters.

Sean

[hovis]

Well said my thoughts exactly the problem is no one is doing anything about it:confused:

exactly................ but what can the average joe bloggs do about it?

[northwind]

Namely, so called economic migrants, (as opposed to those being persecuted) really have no true justification to be here, therefore should only be allowed in if they can contribute to our economy. (400.000 Polish Citizens is more like an invasion, rather than them exercising their new found freedom).

Well... The entire point of an economic migrant is that they contribute to the economy, otherwise, they're just a migrant ;) It's supply and demand, whether it's romanys doing harvests, irish digging canals, scots farming in america, mexicans in the meat industry in the southern US, british builders in east germany, or polish people doing absolutely everything, everywhere :D

Not many people object to the eastern europeans since they're basically like british people only not workshy ;)

But it goes beyond that. Immigration in the UK pays for itself- even the insanely biased Immigration Watch accepts this. They tried to make political capital out of the fact that the gain is too low :rolleyes: In other words, the benefit from temporary economic immigration and permanent renationalised migration (whether it's asylum seeking or otherwise) exceeds the cost of all immigration. Maybe pointing this out'll make me part of the PC brigade... I don't think it's PC at all, I'm saying the same thing as most of the antis, just that because I know the facts I come to a different conclusion- economic migration should only be allowed if it benefits us, just as those opposed say, but it does.

Not saying it's without its problems of course, nothing ever is.

[zunkus]

At least you guys don't have the illegal imigrants problem we've got here in Malta. We're filling up with the lot. They arrive to our shores everyday. The Italian surveilance pinpoint them whilst halfway to their Sicily which happens to conveniently be our waters thus our responsability. Local contractors employ them to do all sorts of labour thus cutting out jobs from the Maltese citizens. Maltese don't stand a chance. The imigrants are happy to work for half the money and the sorry lads are reported before the month ends, before they get their wages. By whome you may ask, think a little, their employers maybe? It's incredible, and most of the population here still attends Sunday mass and receive the body of Jesus Christ. Contractors and polititions fill up the front rows. So I'll trade my sun for your grey skies and lovely roads mate.

[Demonz]

Nah, don't fancy OZ. They have the worst drought going on at the mo.

I was thinking more like Belize.

Belize - I've heard the bone fishing is great here - especially on the fly :)

But if I could sell up everyhitng I'd probably opt for packing up the panniers and riding around the world.

[Balddood]

Well... The entire point of an economic migrant is that they contribute to the economy, otherwise, they're just a migrant ;) It's supply and demand, whether it's romanys doing harvests, irish digging canals, scots farming in america, mexicans in the meat industry in the southern US, british builders in east germany, or polish people doing absolutely everything, everywhere :D

Not many people object to the eastern europeans since they're basically like british people only not workshy ;)

But it goes beyond that. Immigration in the UK pays for itself- even the insanely biased Immigration Watch accepts this. They tried to make political capital out of the fact that the gain is too low :rolleyes: In other words, the benefit from temporary economic immigration and permanent renationalised migration (whether it's asylum seeking or otherwise) exceeds the cost of all immigration. Maybe pointing this out'll make me part of the PC brigade... I don't think it's PC at all, I'm saying the same thing as most of the antis, just that because I know the facts I come to a different conclusion- economic migration should only be allowed if it benefits us, just as those opposed say, but it does.

Not saying it's without its problems of course, nothing ever is.

Well... having managed a company which employed (note the ed, past tense) migrant workers, i find it hard to understand how sending most of their wages "home" to the family and keeping just enough so they can eat / sleep here is benefiting our economy? I could understand if they were spending their wages here but they dont. The people who i knew were living in a 2 bedroomed house, rented, 14 of them!! Again, when you consider that they were on pretty good money and each of them paying £20 a week towards the rent, there is quite a lot of money going "home". There will always be people who profess to know the facts about these matters, but it doesn't take away what people see every single day. When "visitors" to my country have more civil rights than "citizens" then there is something very wrong.

Sean

[ccurts]

With you all of the way, Baldood. Thing is, if the benefits weren't so easy to pilfer, there would be no jobs for polish plumbers as the chavs would have to swap their tracksuits for overalls and get off their arses, and the foreigners probably wouldn't bother to come. Question is who the f can you vote for that would even make a dent in it all?

[Balddood]

With you all of the way, Baldood. Thing is, if the benefits weren't so easy to pilfer, there would be no jobs for polish plumbers as the chavs would have to swap their tracksuits for overalls and get off their arses, and the foreigners probably wouldn't bother to come. Question is who the f can you vote for that would even make a dent in it all?

To my knowledge, there is only one party with big enough balls to promise to make a difference. Unfortunately, the party in question are seen as racist bigots because no one has taken the time to read their other policies. For instance making our streets safer for everyone, bringing back the powers for police / teachers to administer restraint / a clip round the ear to the young chavites etc. Seems the softly softly approach didn't work too well... hug a hoody? Kick him in the pants would be a better option!!

Sean

[hovis]

Question is who the f can you vote for that would even make a dent in it all? you probaly wont like the answer, but if they could shed the racist image

http://www.bnp.org.uk/pdf_files/minimanifesto2007.pdf

[Balddood]

you probaly wont like the answer, but if they could shed the racist image

http://www.bnp.org.uk/pdf_files/minimanifesto2007.pdf


Seems we were thinking the same thing. S'funny that eh :P

[Spanner Man]

Not many people object to the eastern europeans since they're basically like british people only not workshy ;)

But it goes beyond that. Immigration in the UK pays for itself- even the insanely biased Immigration Watch accepts this. They tried to make political capital out of the fact that the gain is too low :rolleyes: In other words, the benefit from temporary economic immigration and permanent renationalised migration (whether it's asylum seeking or otherwise) exceeds the cost of all immigration. Maybe pointing this out'll make me part of the PC brigade... I don't think it's PC at all, I'm saying the same thing as most of the antis, just that because I know the facts I come to a different conclusion- economic migration should only be allowed if it benefits us, just as those opposed say, but it does.

Not saying it's without its problems of course, nothing ever is.

Evening again.
We have already covered the isue or lazy Brits, & Eastern Europeans can indeed graft.....However as Baldood points out, there's no overall gain having them here if they're sending the money they earn back home.
I have to disagree with you regarding your allegation that immigration pays for itself, for if as has been suggested, Lazy Brits were made to go out & work, or face having benefits stopped, there would be far fewer jobs for the 'economic migrants' that you claim to be a benefit to our society. Henceforth they would become a burden, instead of the lazy Brits. Get my drift?

My honest opinion is that our society needs to be tougher in all aspects., & the precedent has been set many times as to what happens when a society capitulates to the masses & gives in......Zimbabwe anyone! Or South Africa in the not too distant future, if I'm not mistaken.

Not sure I'd like the BNP in power, all they do is spout the old NF rhetoric, but I'd definitely kick a hoodie up the backside for free.

Cheers.

[philipMac]

I lived for a short while in Norway, Germany, and for a few years in the US in and around NYC. And obviously I am from Ireland, so there too. I was in south-South America for 4 months, but not really living there, more traveling.

Scandinavia is a pretty amazing place to live, the winters are tough though, but the quality of life is great. Copenhagen is probably my favorite city in the world. Norway is stunning, and loooooaded.

I dont think South America suits my brain, I dont think I could deal with living there, the place is just too big. Mind meltingly huge.
Germany... well, is Germany. Pretty much as you would expect. Pretty dull, although I wasn't in Berlin, which is a whole different kettle of fishies.
Good girls go to heaven, bad girls go to Berlin and all that.

The US... meh, definitely far and away the most oppressive closed minded police state-ish place I have ever been in. Cops everywhere, most of them utter douche nozzels, the kids that were the bullies in school and who now hate "them college types with their fancy thinkin ways". It has its up points, the weather is pretty nice which is most of the time ( ie when its not insanely cold or hot). The police state, scumbag cop, neolithic attitudes are really an insurmountable mountain for me. I can't spend my life here for this reason, and could not expose young kids to that.

Ireland... is actually a pretty good place. The big mark down is the weather, which amazingly manages to be slightly worse than the UK. I would still take Ireland, or Scotland instantly over almost anywhere in the UK. The UK is a ferociously grey drab place in fairness, although I have been in places like Cumbria / Yorkshire that weren't too bad. Most of the south is pretty grim though.

But, if I was to live somewhere else tomorrow, I think I would look at New Zealand.
I like Kiwis, for a start. They are fairly sound. And, NZ has basically everything Ireland has, only better and nicer it seems, AND it has some reasonable weather.

Other than that, there are parts of Spain that are very nice, and France. But, the Kiwis speak (more or less) English which makes life a little easier. Also NZ has real Ocean around it, which I really miss coming from Ireland.
So NZ it is.

Ka mate ka mate wha'?
http://www.offrande-rugby.com/images/cat/cat-kaMate.jpg

[Balddood]

Not sure I'd like the BNP in power, all they do is spout the old NF rhetoric, but I'd definitely kick a hoodie up the backside for free.



See, thats the perception that everyone has of them. I'm not going to get into a political argument and i can't tell you who to vote for. All i can say is that if you could see past that one issue and read the rest of their propositions, they do speak for the British person.

Sean

[dizzyblonde]

My best friend left sunny Hull for the midst of France three years ago
Last year she had a return trip to the Uk in unfortunate circumstances...on arrival in Stanstead she was greeted by an airport lady with ' welcome to Britain have a nice stay'
'in this s***hole? not bloody likely' was her reply..
Every time i go to see her she gets more and more anti British. We went to pick up a friend from La Rochelle airport on my last stay, and I'd been only in the country a few days and I could really see her point of view. I'm a real people watcher anyway, but i could really see how generally Brits are rude, ignorant folk with not a lot of respect for anyone but themselves as a collective. Apart from my few chosen friends I have( and family) that i'd leave behind, I wouldn't give moving over there a second thought if I had the opportunity.
There are many folk that I have come across over my lifetime and remembered with affection, like the folk on here..people like them are far and few between these days in this land....

And my friends thoughts when all the British left on the plane back to Britain....'F off back where ya came from..good riddance to bad rubbish'

Perhaps this is a different view on the Johnny Foreigner slant

[philipMac]

See, thats the perception that everyone has of them. I'm not going to get into a political argument and i can't tell you who to vote for. All i can say is that if you could see past that one issue and read the rest of their propositions, they do speak for the British person.


Right, I mean, I'm sure apart from psychotically hating the blacks, Pakistanis, Indians, gays, Asians, Paddies, trannies, Arabs and Jews, and wanting to shank them all, wrap them in carpet and drop them off at the local landfill the BNP are absolutely lovely salt of the earth people.




I just remembered, a mate of mine lived in Belize for a couple of years. She was a dive instructor. She said it was pretty nice alright, but she had enough after a couple of years though.

[Balddood]

Right, I mean, I'm sure apart from psychotically hating the blacks, Pakistanis, Indians, gays, Asians, Paddies, trannies, Arabs and Jews, and wanting to shank them all, wrap them in carpet and drop them off at the local landfill

Your source for this fact based rant is?...

Sean

[philipMac]

Your source for this fact based rant is?...

Sean

Experience.

I'm Irish, and my Aunt/Uncle live in Brighton/Hove area and there were a fair few BNP types knocking around where she lived at one point.

They were hanging around, and presumably heard me speaking, and I got a load of "Paddy on his day out" type of gibes thrown at me.
This was around 20 years ago, I was young and I had no idea they were talking about me since I didn't realise that "Paddy" was a racist term for Irish people. So I didn't really pay any attention, some other stuff was said, my cousins realised something was up and we all legged it off, when we were running off a lot of stuff was said, and I realised it was directed at me. We were not allowed play out side any more, and my Aunt (Irish) got her car robbed the next week. (She moved house with in the year.)

So, yeah, there were a few other incidents, that was the main one though. They pretty much seemed to be the personification of every obnoxious and disgusting trait available to humans.

[Pedrosa]

What I find really sad these days is the level of disillusionment expressed by so many people about theU.K,(maybe more specifically England?) I left England not for the fact that so much about the place I disliked but more for family reasons and wishing to have a crack somewhere else. I never really had any axe to grind and would oft say to people that England was a great place to hail from...yes despite even then it having certain warts.

But it does seem to have changed so much in the 7 years that have passed since I did a runner. As each news report is read or comment picked up on forums digested it merely puts even greater distance between myself and the place I grew up in. That is a terrible shame and on the few visits I have made it really does not seem like home anymore.

I am not saying where I live now is perfect...trust me it is not, however I made the decision to come here and so also accepted that a change of life style and the way things work had to be adaapted to.

I guess the long and short of it is, if you decide to stay then if you wish to see things improved you must align with a political movement that best suits your vision. If not act and choose an alternative country to live in where you are prepared to adjust and start all over again.

[philipMac]

Here, Peter, what age were you when you left the UK if you dont mind me asking?

I also just sort of left Ireland for no particular reason, like yourself. I still feel that Ireland is home, even though Ireland has changed a hell of a lot more than the UK has in the last few years.

I haven't been gone as long as you have though...

There is something about the west of Ireland though that feels like home to me in a way that nowhere else can though, no matter how long I am away for I think.

[Pedrosa]

Phil...I am of prehistoric age compared to you. I left when I was 39. I have to tell you that with my mum's family originally hailing from Cork,(don't laugh) the west of Ireland is certainly a place I would consider if lush green as opposed to golden sunshine became my preference.;)

[dizzyblonde]

Mr Pedrosa I think you see along the same way as my best mate in my above post...she has quite a different life over the pond, and often a hell of alot more difficult than the life she left...language, lifestyle, see's husband less now than before, even though they moved there for the opposite( he's a trucker), blah blah blah
Her own words once " I could be absolutely on my ****, flat broke etc, but so long as I had the roof over my head i wouldn't go back to the Uk if you paid me"

[Pedrosa]

Dizzy...I am not anti Britain/UK/England. It is though not a place I think I would ever by choice live again. I am not anti Brits either. If you understand me? My view is that after having moved away I am more likely to go to another country rather than return to Blighty.

[dizzyblonde]

I get your meaning me dear, I'm not sure my mate is anti, brit, uk in such a seriously negative way, i think its just that she has found that there is more to the world than just us on this island, and a whole load of different folk too. moving away opened her eyes to a whole differnet look on life....but we do appear...from the other side of the fence a rather rude, obnoxious set of folk

[Tim in Belgium]

Well I lived out in Belgium for 2 1/2 years, good fun, but found a lot of the belgians were very dogmatic in their out look, took a fair bit of time to find like minded individuals, and when I found a nice girl it was time to come home again :(

[philipMac]

Well I lived out in Belgium for 2 1/2 years, good fun, but found a lot of the belgians were very dogmatic in their out look, took a fair bit of time to find like minded individuals, and when I found a nice girl it was time to come home again :(

Out of interest, why did you come back Tim?
I met a Belgian girl too, sigh, from Ghent. Ho hum. Long time ago now. Never went there, although dEUS and Evil Superstars are both from there, so it cant be too bad a place wha'?

[philipMac]

I get your meaning me dear, I'm not sure my mate is anti, brit, uk in such a seriously negative way, i think its just that she has found that there is more to the world than just us on this island, and a whole load of different folk too. moving away opened her eyes to a whole differnet look on life....but we do appear...from the other side of the fence a rather rude, obnoxious set of folk

Sometimes its funny.
Its like the most devout Christians are guys that found God later in life, the more ardent anti smokers are former smokers.
I am pretty embarrassed by how racist a lot of the first / second gen "Irish" are out here, and very uncomfortable when they start to drag me into their brain damaged diatribes. I actually stay away from the Irish stuff out here.
If I want Ireland, I will go to Ireland, and have a pint of Murphys in Clonakilty.

Something about you being very close to this thing, that you see in others and dont like, and it scares you, and you exaggerate slightly your response to your discomfort. Maybe?

[Tim in Belgium]

I went there with work (chemical engineer, they paid for my house and car :) ) and came back to the UK to build what I designed out there, come June/July I could be going to Holland/Belgium/China/who knows, all sounds fun and exciting but moving about all the time can be a bit of an ar$€ when it comes to friends, relationships and having a proper home. Also buying/selling/importing vehicles can add up.

Had a great time away, but never felt that I was going to be there long term, so never made the effort to a certain extent. I was back there just over a week ago and I realised I do miss the life style a lot, especially the West Vleteran No 12, the relaxed going out and the warmer weather.

[Demonz]

As an immigrant of sorts I wanted to say I love living in England. I love the lifestyle, cultural diversity, the history, and the proximity to the rest of Europe. It took a long time to settle in though and I can say it certainly wasnt an easy country to move too. Mainly due to cost. Coming from Sydney and Melbourne after growing up in New Zealand it was really hard to find an area we were happy in. Our dollars didnt go far and having kids here was tough financially. If we hadnt found our feet I think we probably would have gone back to Sydney, just for the lifestyle - one day I am sure we probably will.

[northwind]

However as Baldood points out, there's no overall gain having them here if they're sending the money they earn back home.

I have to disagree with you regarding your allegation that immigration pays for itself, for if as has been suggested, Lazy Brits were made to go out & work, or face having benefits stopped, there would be far fewer jobs for the 'economic migrants' that you claim to be a benefit to our society. Henceforth they would become a burden, instead of the lazy Brits. Get my drift?


For the first, do you think they live on fresh air and water out of the river while they're here? They become end users like everyone else, they pay rent, they buy food, petrol, household goods, and they pay tax. In short, they grow the economy like every other worker does. Do you have a polish deli in your town? Polish restaurant? Polish bar? We've got loads of 'em, and they're all making us money.

Like I said, even Immigration Watch- a blatantly anti-immigrant organisation- admits that immigration more than pays for itself. It was them that came out with the "mars bar per month" story a while back- that the economic gain from immigration amounts to only 4p per UK citizen per month, or the price of a mars bar for each taxpayer as they were pleased to tell everyone. What they didn't mention was that this was after all immigration costs- in other words, it's pure profit. So they ran their story cleverly talking about small benefits and implying that the costs were seperate, rather than this being the net result.

If you were to use Home Office figures (lies, obviously), or independant economic reviews, then you get a better picture still- I'm using IWUK's numbers not because they're neccesarily accurate but because they're the worst out there and they're still positive.

What you have to remember with regards "lazy brits" is that a lot of these guys are skilled workers- we're not talking about navvies here. You can't turn an unemployed guy into a time-served plumber, doctor, bricklayer or financial accountant overnight. When I was getting my hip fixed, one of the surgeons, one of the surgical assistants, and half of the nurses were recent immigrants- and it's not because they're stealing people's jobs, we've got a skills shortage.

Obviously, not everyone's like this- and yep, we should be getting more unemployed but employable people into meaningful training or into jobs. But it's not an either-or situation, we can take the benefits of the migrant workers and still work on that. Personally I'm not sure how, lots of people have plans to get the employable back into work but they never seem to work out.

[philipMac]

Right, so the anti immigration thing doesn't hold up on cost.
So, I am an immigrant and the US gets a very good deal with me, I am basically entitled to nothing, I have cost the country nothing to school, nothing to keep healthy, nothing at all.

Now I am working in one of their research institutions, on pretty low wages compared to my counterpart in industry, I pay all the taxes of an American person, I spend almost all of my money in the country, and when I am out of work I have thirty days to leave.

I am not representative of the majority of immigrants though.
Compared to the majority of immigrants I am a sponge. Because they do the jobs that no one wants, for money that no one would work for. They are the people that make NYC function, and the US function. They can be rounded up and deported at any time, have no rights, no voting power, yet they are the ones that do basically all real the grunt work.

So, if you dont like immigrants, and you know that there is no financial reason to not like them, what reason do you have left? Hmm.


Here, Gmonsta, give me 3 reasons why I shouldn't move to NZ.

edit... right, being miles away from Europe is one. Three more :)

[northwind]

Mmm, I don't think it's quite that simple though. There's a risk here, because if we get too used to immigrant labour and we keep making money off it, then why bother trying to get unemployed folks into work, and why bother training people up to fill the skill shortages when we can just order 100 polish doctors off ebay? We could easily end up patching the cracks and never actually fixing the problem,migrant labour could be too easy a fix, too tempting. And the thing is, it could just go away- we're already losing out to Ireland in that they're becoming a more desirable location. Some industries are bricking it in case the golden goose stops laying, and it probably will sooner or later.

I did add a joke here, but it was rubbish. It's not that I don't want to lighten the tone, it's just that I can't, I'll need to import a ukrainian comic to do me some material.

[Balddood]

*Yawn*

[Lissa]

Mmm, I don't think it's quite that simple though. There's a risk here, because if we get too used to immigrant labour and we keep making money off it, then why bother trying to get unemployed folks into work, and why bother training people up to fill the skill shortages when we can just order 100 polish doctors off ebay? We could easily end up patching the cracks and never actually fixing the problem,migrant labour could be too easy a fix, too tempting. And the thing is, it could just go away- we're already losing out to Ireland in that they're becoming a more desirable location. Some industries are bricking it in case the golden goose stops laying, and it probably will sooner or later.



This is one of my main concerns, and I see it happening where I work. There is no impetus for employers to be forced to improve pay and conditions, because their attitude now is, 'you don't like it, leave. There are a hundred immigrants waiting for your job.' If and when the bubble finally bursts, it could be disastrous.

[Filipe M.]

(...) from the other side of the fence a rather rude (...) set of folk

*Yawn*



Sorry, it had to be done. ;)

[The Basket]

I've been to France a number of times and I don't see it. I really don't. I've been told how great it is but when I visit...

Northen Spain...brilliant bike roads and much cooler almost English weather...Score!

I actually prefer Scotland to England...greener and less crowded...But the winters are dismal. And I like the cold.

[Balddood]

Sorry, it had to be done. ;)

582

[skidmarx]

I'm so sick of the grey skies, traffic and general attitude of the inhabitants.
I need to get out of here, like today...

Damn, first need to sell SV and bike gear, sell house and a lifetimes collection of consumerist rubbish.

So it's more like tomorrow really.

Watch this space.

I was going to ask why exactly, but after all of the above, I kinda see what you mean....:D

[rob13]

I see the lifestyles of both White British folk and of the migrants which are entering this country. I dont really care about race, what I care about is whether the people care for this country and want to improve their lives and their families lives through honest graft. I dont like the idea of these East Europeans taking the money out of the economy -apparently theres a shortage of £50 notes as theyre all turning up in East Europe! There needs to be a tough stance on the welfare state in this country, too many people just happy to live off scraps and dont have any interest in working for a living.

Personally, I cant ever see myself leaving the UK. I dont live amongst the rat race of the South East, dont face ridiculous traffic jams every day, can get out in the country in a 5 minute drive and generally love the lush green land of the North. Ok the weather is bad at times and we pay too much tax but I dont see the attraction of why people go to Spain. No offence to those who live there but it just seems to be a 2nd class country. Nothing is finished and what is finished is finished to a poor standard.

[hovis]

wheres nieo?

[Brian]

The thing that gets on my goat about the influx of migrant workers is:

I'm in the building trade (kitchen fitter).
I was talking to a guy who works on building sites (new builds etc) he was telling me about this one site where there were 76 people working there.

Out of the 76 people working there '3' of them were from the UK (yes three), all the rest of them were Polish, 73 of them!
Now the thing is, that is 73 UK builders who have houses to pay for, 73 UK families that are/were now struggling to pay their mortgages, 73 people who could lose their homes!!!

And why is this, because they're undercutting everyone and sending the money back home to a different country.

Now, my job is fairly secure (at the moment) as well as Electricians.
But all the other trades, Carpenters, Plasterers, Brickies, Plumbers and ground-workers etc are all being undercut!
Our own UK builders cannot undercut as they have expensive mortgages to pay for, they can't just frig off back home when they're done.

Unless you're in the trade you really don't know how widespread this problem is, and it's massive.
Look around you at how much building work is goin on in re-generation etc, the migrant workers are everywhere, undercutting everyone, undercutting our 'own' workers.

That building site I mentioned at the begining with the 73 Poles, that's only 'one' site, there are thousands more across the country.

I can't blame people for leaving this country, best of luck to them I say.

[Pedrosa]

I dont see the attraction of why people go to Spain. No offence to those who live there but it just seems to be a 2nd class country. Nothing is finished and what is finished is finished to a poor standard.

Rob, I think that you will find that indeed in certain more popular coastal areas a lot of property devlopment continues to take place in Spain. The reason for that has been the demand largely created by people leaving the U.K. in record numbers to move here.

I can assure you that,(having worked in Real Estate here for 4 years) property aimed at the ex pat residential market is of a standard way higher than you might imagine. The cheaper property aimed predominantly at the local and budget buyer is naturally nowhere near the same standard.

Spain a 2nd class country? Hmm I am not sure on what particular aspects you base your assesment,(I would think that only passing through as a tourist does not really allow educated judgement?) Only living here would provide the kind of information and knowledge through experience to fully judge.

Spain for sure is not at all perfect, especially if you originate from a long established democracy like England. Things do work differently. At times the law infuriates and exasperates, but is that not the same anywhere?

Nor is Spain all charred and sun bleached. Here they have in parts a climate very similar to the U.K. but with perhaps more sunshine in the summer. Places like Asturias are as green as any English meadow,(the main milk producing area of Spain)Rivers, mountain ranges,natural parks it is all here.

But I can for sure see how many would criticise Spain as it is very different than England. It is this subtle yet important point that would be way too much for many. However those that embrace their new land and ask no special favours or priveleges and do not not try to cling on to everything that they should have left in England, can switch to work mode and not view their time here as some elongated holiday, can build a great life with great quality to it.

[Xan173]

Personally I'm all for a bit more more proud nationalism.

[Ed]

Dang I shouldn't have read this thread. This afternoon I've been looking at visa applications for all sorts of places. Not Belize though:D And it isn't difficult to move to any of them...

[northwind]

Unless you're in the trade you really don't know how widespread this problem is, and it's massive.
Look around you at how much building work is goin on in re-generation etc, the migrant workers are everywhere, undercutting everyone, undercutting our 'own' workers.

That's one way to look at it. The other is that wages in the building trade are artificially high because of the skill gap, and that now there's an adjustment happening. You mentioned high mortgages- ie, high house prices, caused largely by the high cost of building, and the inability of the industry to meet demand with supply. There aren't thousands of builders being laid off just now after all- there's a wage correction but there's not a shortage of work, the housing industry's grown as fast as it can assimilate new labour (according to the FMB). Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it sucks to be part of it but it was always going to happen- whether it was immigrant labour now or internal growth.

You hear the same line from plumbers- they've gone from being able to literally name their price 5 years ago, to competing for work. Not so good if you're a plumber but it's pretty good news if your house is flooding and you don't want to pay £250 in callout fees alone. They've been in a position where they could exploit the shortages, and now they can't. Welcome to the rest of the world. But again, there's not a line of plumbers signing on, just that now they have to compete for work- we're not competing for plumbers.

Don't think I'm nimbying, nearly as many Polish people are going into financial services as have gone into construction.

I dont like the idea of these East Europeans taking the money out of the economy

As mentioned above, they don't. take money out of hte economy- they add to it, and send a large chunk of that home, but that still leaves a net gain that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

Baldood can yawn if he wants, arguing based on facts is always more boring than impressive sweeping statements, even when they're wrong ;) This is why politics is s***.

[Balddood]

I yawned because you bore the sh!t out of me. You always jump in and have your opinion and it seems you think it's the only one that counts, it isn't. Your facts and figures, which you profess are always correct, don't mean squat to the average Brit. Even when people who are suffering as a direct result of the immigrant influx, i.e builders, myself etc, give people an insight as to what they see day in day out, you come back with your facts and statistics. Well, to be fair, you can cram them. There are people on here who couldn't care less about them. We see what is happening to our country and we don't like it one bit.

This is, to my knowledge, an open forum where anyone can post their opinion on almost any subject. Please don't think you have the monopoly to come here and try to belittle any other person's opinion. You may well know more people on here than i, again, i don't give a toss. I love my country, my fellow Brits and everything that our previous generations fought for in order for us to be able to live the lifestyles which we should be entitled to. This is the last i will post on the matter and you will not bait me again with you incessant piffle. You have your opinion, I have mine, and no matter how many of your "facts" you post here will change them.

Sean

[Brian]

Northy,

I agree with regards to plumbers being able to name their price in the past and now the roles have been reversed, taking advantage of a crisis (peoples homes flooding etc) and yes some of their rates are extortionate (sp?) to say the least.
Also yes, there are no long lines of unemployed builders etc, builders can allways find work, it's just that now they have to travel further finding it, especialy the self-employed 'local' tradesmen etc.

I can't really argue/discuss with you reagarding the economy aspects of it as you seem faily well educated in that matter (much more than myself) and i'd be getting out of my depth.

It's just that I do feel for our own tradesmen who are being undercut and can't afford to go any cheaper in their prices as house-prices/mortgages are so high etc.
It's mainly the tradesmen who rely on work in the Merseyside area (as an example) etc who are finding it 'harder' to find work.

I don't hold any malice or hatred againsed the Poles etc, like I said they have families to care for too, i'd do the same for mine I guess.
I've met many a Pole and never met a nasty one, they've all seemed decent people.

As for as buiding sites go, I guess at the end of the day it is the people who finance/own the sites that are doing the harm by employing the cheapest form of labour, which right now happens to be the migrant workers.
It's all down to profit I guess...

[Razor]

Moving right along...

I spent a couple of weeks in Canada recently, not holiday, family business.

I was truly gobsmacked by how nice the Canucks are. I mean just friendly and helpful like good people are. They remind of myself and they way I treat people and expect to be treated in return.
Sure there are issues there, like anywhere, but sometimes I look around and see that some people here seem to have lost their way at some point in the recent past.

I can't put my finger on it, but it's something to do with the way the UK seems to be adopting the worst aspects of American culture and doesn't remind me of home anymore.

I'll be giving this more thought tomorrow. I have a meeting with management and I'm not impressed with their performance of late. I'm sure they'll have issues with mine but one day I'll find a place to work that understands the symbiotic relationship between boss/worker. It's not even like they own the place...

[northwind]

Baldood, what can I say? They're not my figures, they're Immigration Watch's, anti-immigration poster boys and friends of the BNP. I decided to use theirs since that way, I didn't think anyone could say that my figures are biased.

It's funny that you talk about me not having "the monopoly to come here and try to belittle any other person's opinion"- that's pretty obvious since Iwas responding to you belittling mine. Never quite understood why the people who make the most noise about being entitled to their opinion are the same people who're quickest to take offence when anyone has a different one.


It's just that I do feel for our own tradesmen who are being undercut and can't afford to go any cheaper in their prices as house-prices/mortgages are so high etc.
It's mainly the tradesmen who rely on work in the Merseyside area (as an example) etc who are finding it 'harder' to find work.


Yup, it's a rubbish situation to find yourself in. It's the same up here for my line of work... Edinburgh's taken more Polish immigrants per head than any other part of the country I think, and about half in the financial sector. I reckon it's good for the country, which is what this nationalism stuff's supposed to be about, but from a self-interest point of view it's not much fun. And I came into it too late to get the benefits of the boom too :rolleyes: The Alamo worked out good for America but I bet that didn't make Mrs Crockett feel any better :D But, even though it sucks for me I still think it's the right direction to be going in, just now, as long as we plan for what happens next.

[philipMac]

Baldood.
You are behaving obnoxiously.
Northwind is a nice guy, and an asset to the site. The fact that he backs up some arguments with intelligence and actual data (which he refs) is not a failing.

This is contrast to your arguments, which demonstrate little connection with reality, and less intelligence. Such arguments are more suited to your local BNP meeting.


I have thought about Canada too. It is unbelievably cold there in places in the winter though.

[Brian]

And William Shatner, he's Cannadian, got 3 of his albums lol :lol::oops:

[Razor]

I have thought about Canada too. It is unbelievably cold there in places in the winter though.

I've been to Ontario in the summer, I want to check out BC next...

I do hate one thing about Canada.

Celine Dion!

But then they gave us the Arcade Fire, so we can call it even, even though I still hold Nickelback against them too!

[Filipe M.]

...even though I still hold Nickelback against them too!

Portuguese "fans" stoned them out of the stage, does that score a point in our favour?

[Ed]

I have friends in Regina, SK. They crow about temperatures of as low as minus 50C each winter:rendeer: and no winter email is complete without a photo of at least six feet of snow:cool:

[Razor]

Portuguese "fans" stoned them out of the stage, does that score a point in our favour?

That was uber-cool! (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=uber-cool) I thinking stoning is too good for them.

[Pedrosa]

I yawned because you bore the sh!t out of me. You always jump in and have your opinion and it seems you think it's the only one that counts, it isn't. Your facts and figures, which you profess are always correct, don't mean squat to the average Brit. Even when people who are suffering as a direct result of the immigrant influx, i.e builders, myself etc, give people an insight as to what they see day in day out, you come back with your facts and statistics. Well, to be fair, you can cram them. There are people on here who couldn't care less about them. We see what is happening to our country and we don't like it one bit.

This is, to my knowledge, an open forum where anyone can post their opinion on almost any subject. Please don't think you have the monopoly to come here and try to belittle any other person's opinion. You may well know more people on here than i, again, i don't give a toss. I love my country, my fellow Brits and everything that our previous generations fought for in order for us to be able to live the lifestyles which we should be entitled to. This is the last i will post on the matter and you will not bait me again with you incessant piffle. You have your opinion, I have mine, and no matter how many of your "facts" you post here will change them.

Sean

I can really feel here that Sean is very troubled at what he sees as the decline of the U.K. a place he obviously loves dearly. There is always space for someone to express their inner most concerns and feelings and for counter argument that merely deals with stats and official info.

[philipMac]

I've been to Ontario in the summer, I want to check out BC next...

I do hate one thing about Canada.


There is amazing winter sports out there, ice climbing, skiing, all that stuff. The summers are nice too, settled weather, not insanely hot like down where I am in NYC. You can do nice hiking and all that.
Decent paddling too in spring. Vancouver is meant to be the place. Completely beautiful. I was never actually there, but I was with a native american girl who was, and she was showing me pics and maps and things.

Yup. Would be nice.


What about NZ? Does anyone (AHEM GMONSTA :smt039) know about NZ?

[Pedrosa]

I have placed on my "to do list" a skiing holiday in Whistler. Never skiid before and so thought if Im gonna make an ass of myself might as well do it in a top location.:D

[husky03]

Live and let live i say-trouble with immigration is its selective-don't hear much moaning going on when your favourite football team signs a player from abroad -after all he would be keeping a british player out the team.The problem with this country today is to many people get too much for doing nowt-if you work for what you've got good on you , you've got my respect-maybe its to easy to point the finger at people and blame them for things when maybe we should be looking at bit more at ourselves?

husky

[philipMac]

I have placed on my "to do list" a skiing holiday in Whistler. Never skiid before and so thought if Im gonna make an ass of myself might as well do it in a top location.:D

Skiing is not as hard as it looks.

The trick is to have a critical level of stupidity at the start, which fades as (hopefully) your skill increases. And, as my early biker friends would say, if you're not crashing, you're not going fast enough.

I learned to ski in Norway, from a Norwegian guy who trains the SAS.
And flies helicopters...
...over the North pole...



...rescuing lost people.


If anyone knows anyone with a cooler job, give me a shout.

(One slightly annoying thing was that his commute to work was pretty long. Like Paris was closer to him than his job.
On the plus side he was allowed chopper out there.)

[northwind]

don't hear much moaning going on when your favourite football team signs a player from abroad -after all he would be keeping a british player out the team.

I'm going to steal that :thumright:

[hovis]

i have complain about that for ages

[Demonz]

There is amazing winter sports out there, ice climbing, skiing, all that stuff. The summers are nice too, settled weather, not insanely hot like down where I am in NYC. You can do nice hiking and all that.
Decent paddling too in spring. Vancouver is meant to be the place. Completely beautiful. I was never actually there, but I was with a native american girl who was, and she was showing me pics and maps and things.

Yup. Would be nice.


What about NZ? Does anyone (AHEM GMONSTA :smt039) know about NZ?

I've still been trying to think of a couple more reasons for you not to go :p. Its easier to think of the things I miss though and its mainly the outdoors lifestyle. Fishing, diving, surfing and everything to do with the sea - all done where you are one of a handful of people doing the same thing... New Zealand being roughly the same size of the UK not even 10% of the population. As the country was really only formed in 1840 (my inlaws house is older) there is a lot of undeveloped countryside which is so different than Europe.

A british mate of mine moved down with his family 3 years ago after buying a block of land whilst on holiday there many years earlier. They moved back to the UK after a year and a bit though. The isolation drove them nuts. It was too far away from anywhere (apart from Fiji and Australia - 4hrs) but also very rural - both the peoples attitudes and the local towns themselves. Its also quite expensive as the cost of living is still quite high and wages not the best.

I would say there are opportunities to make money - but I think the opportunities to do so in the UK are better and can be done quicker. I know lots of Aussies and Kiwis that come up here on working holidays & ancestory visas. Most will lay down deposits for a house or 2 back home, or if they do well that perfect 10 acre block on the coast.

I have a Kiwi builder mate who just sent his family back to NZ and he will be following later in the year. They have done really well here. He had a personal policy of only hiring Kiwi chippys as they were more efficient than other nationalities. I thinks its great that he or any other employer can get a job done more efficiently by hiring cheaper harder working staff. I am sure that anyone of you would do the the same if you were in a similar position. Oh look I'm going off topic again... :rolleyes:

The weather in NZ is great though - especially in the North. A little like the UK but the winters arent as cold - maybe 10 deg cels if its really cold. But if you want the best of everything then Australia I think would have it for me. The cosmopolitan lifestyle whilst still being able to get out of the city and into the middle of nowhere within an hour... but thats another post.

[Ol Boc]

But if you want the best of everything then Australia I think would have it for me. The cosmopolitan lifestyle whilst still being able to get out of the city and into the middle of nowhere within an hour....

So how come "most" of Australia seems comes over here to live then? Germaine Greer, Clive James, John Torode, Mark Viduka to name but four - plus a few zillion Students who we let in to set up ghastly Outback bars....what are they? Missionaries?

[northwind]

Mark Viduka :D Both an australian and eastern european economic migrant.

[lukemillar]

I suppose i could always pack up and move to Spain, that might be an idea :D

Sean

Hang on, wouldn't that be:

.........someone who has come to my country in order to escape the (so called) atrocities which are happening in their own.

The same from a Spaniard's point of view?

Pot, kettle, black?

[kwak zzr]

i know quite a few ppl trying to get in OZ whats all the fuss about?

[neio79]

I would just like to point out that the first steps i would take would be to round up all the illegal immigrants, muslim extremists sand anyone else who doesn't contribute to the economy / rapes the economy so that my fellow British people would at least have a sporting chance of a better lifestyle, and send them back to where they came from. Before someone throws the "racist" rattle from their prams, i would like to say that i am not racist, i am merely a British person who is proud to be so. Now back to the point. In order to make a start on bringing this country back in line, it would be necessary to get rid of the deadwood and concentrate on our own people for a change. However, seeing as "our" government seem to be a collection of mamby-pamby, do-gooding, pink-fluffy, politically correct halfwits, it would seem that instead of doing so, we just seem to be taking in more and more immigrants (illegal or otherwise) who see that the benefits system in this country is easy to pilfer and generally make haste at doing so. Again, i'm sure the PC police will be along shortly to show me the error of my ways and point out that the above isn't the case at all and that we should welcome them with open arms and let them take shelter from the evils which are provailing in their own countries. You would, however, be wasting your breath. I am also well aware that we have our own scroungers who love to sit at home all day on their idle backsides watching tricia etc, whose only aim in life is to knock out as many kids as possible, live in a council house paid for by the average tax payer, on benefits provided to them by the average tax payer, which they use to buy enough alcohol / recreational drugs to get them by until the next giro appears on the doormat. These would be the next target. Get those that can work, to work or stop their benefits.

Now, everything i have posted above would by no means make our beautiful country / community any better on it's own but it would make a start! It would seem though that by being British, i am the underdog in my own country. I have human rights, but not as many it would seem as someone who has come to my country in order to escape the atrocities which are happening in their own.

Therefore, you may as well take no notice of anything i have just said because much like a British citizen's opinion, it means nothing.

Sean

Well... having managed a company which employed (note the ed, past tense) migrant workers, i find it hard to understand how sending most of their wages "home" to the family and keeping just enough so they can eat / sleep here is benefiting our economy? I could understand if they were spending their wages here but they dont. The people who i knew were living in a 2 bedroomed house, rented, 14 of them!! Again, when you consider that they were on pretty good money and each of them paying £20 a week towards the rent, there is quite a lot of money going "home". There will always be people who profess to know the facts about these matters, but it doesn't take away what people see every single day. When "visitors" to my country have more civil rights than "citizens" then there is something very wrong.

Sean

I like this man and his thinking, agree 110%

[neio79]

I want to leave the UK when i retire, just personal choice, i donr know where. NZ and Canada have always appealed to me.

I could apply to transfer to the NZ, OZ or canadian armies and get given citizenship after i have finnished my time with them. A nice easy jump the que type thing.

My wife does not want to really leave but i just see this country going down the pan more and more. I realise that fo all my rants and raves about the state of the place in lots of other posts( so i will spare you all an other rant) the UK is done for its not going to get better its only going to get worse. befroe much longer you wont even be able to buy a house in the UK unless you earn 100K a year. Its already at the point where if you want decent place to live it means buyng it with a loved one. I could go on and on for hours about the state of the UK and how i belive to cure it but i think you all know my views and heard them many times before so i will spare you again.

I am proud to be English and of everything my country has done in its long and great past but now what is there to be proud of in the UK??? We were once the envy of the world in many ways, now we are a laughing stock, seen as americas 51st state.

I belive the only way to have any chance of getting th UK back ot a decent place to live really is to have someone like the BNP in power for a few terms.

in summary i hang my head in utter dispare at the way the UK is and i really dont see it getting better ever.

The UK I Love and want is as dead as the Incas; Aztec's and a host of other dead and burred civilisations. it really does depress me.

[kjames]

interesting thread....

I am without a doubt an economic migrant at the moment, working as an architect in dubai.

The quality of life (for me) is very good. virtually zero crime. it last rained in january. petol is £1 a gallon. I dont pay income tax and can eat out whenever i fancy it.

I still miss the UK, and its always our intention to go back... but we'll see.

Regarding the undercutting of builders by eastern eurpoean labour. I've been on site's where plumbers, brickies etc are earning more than architects who have studied for 7 yrs.....clearly in the past there has been a skills shortage in the construction industry and now the immigrant labour is addressing that.

i can imagine there are lots of places in the world where you could settle and have a very nice lifestyle.

good luck.

karl

[Pedrosa]

*Playing Devil's advocate here.*

Could not the main cause of people's disillusionment with the U.K. be largely due to them clinging on to it's worldwide standing in the past? Another trait perhaps steming from "the island mentality". Ok for U.K./British/English forces to invade countries through the ages, but just let some foreigner move legally to our country?

Things are not the same for sure, in any country that I can think of. Maybe time to look ahead and positively help forge a place for the U.K. in the world of tomorrow?

The U.K is not the force it once was in any particular field I can instantly think of,(again a point being made to provoke discussion) Any changes naturally begin with the mentality of the citizens and whether they can embrace what the modern world with it's transitory poulation brings.

This need not be done with hand wringing but a positive and determined mind set that sees the people of a country pull towards the comon aim and benefit.

How something like that could even begin to be implemented I have no idea at all.

[neio79]

[quote=Pedrosa;1302315The U.K is not the force it once was in any particular field I can instantly think of.[/quote]

what about Whinging and moaning?
binge drinking and drunken brawls?

oh and i still concider our Armed forces the best in the world as do many nations, the SAS are certainly the leaders in the SF comunity world wide.

but on the whole you are right we are not leaders in much anymore.

like the old retired boxer who got fat and usless, living out his life on memories of past glory, that is the UK at the moment :(

[Ed]

I've just been to M&S and bought some Florida Orange Juice. That's about the nearest I'll get to the sun I think;)

[Pedrosa]

Improvement Suggestions.

1.No-one will be eligible for unemployment benefit, housing benefit or such like without a proven minimum employment record of at least 18 months in any 2 year period.

2. No-one under the age of 18 will qualify for any of the above benefits.

All class rooms will have surveilance cameras so that any bullying can be spotted early and any other disruptive behaviour within the learning environment. Parents will be shown any incriminating footage and will be offered the opportunity to speak to their child. Three reported instances and the child will be expelled with only fee paying alternatives offered to the parents.

3. On leaving school those not entering in to full time education and have no employment organised will carry out 3 years National Service.

4.Any juvenile committing any crime will be displayed in a town centre location wearing a placard which outlines their offences.

5.The parent of any youth being found guilty of committing any crime will be sentenced to imprisonment. This is with a view to see parents take more control of their children and be more interested in their whereabouts and activities.

6.A Community Pride scheme will be introduced where youths will be involved in projects that benefit their community and give them a sense of pride in their surroundings and so perhaps steer away from wanton vandalism. They will gain credits which will be promoted to future employers.

7. Anyone ever found guilty of any kind of benefit fraud will be imprisoned, their right to any future benefit instantly removed and an attachment to any future earnings will be put in place so that the full amount defrauded is repaid. All assets will be confiscated until the full debt is repaid.

Immigration.

1. No one will be accepted as an immigrant unless the following apply:
They have a verifiable clean criminal record.

They possess a basic working knowledge of the English language. This includes being able to complete any official paperwork themselves.

They accept that to live in the U.K. a good level of integration and accepting of the customs and practices of the country will be embraced.

They have employment arranged and this again must be verifiable.

No immigrant moving to the U.K. will be liable to any benefits apart from emergency medical care for the first 24 months.

The committing of any crime or being involved in any criminal activity will see the rights of residency in the U.K. instantly removed and that of their immediate family.

All immigrants must persue legal employment which can be confirmed and pay contributions from earnings. Any employer using cash in hand for cheaper workers who do not contribute to the system, will be fined heavily.

Crime in general.
Full tariff sentences will be served at all times with no remission or parole.

Repeat offending will attract double tariff sentences.

No special category status will ever be allowed.

Sexual abuse, child abuse, murder, domestic abuse murder, attacks on the elderly or complete innocent strangers, among others will at all times attract a full term life sentence. This type of offender will be held in the barest of cells with no comforts apart from basic necessities. They will be held in solitary confinement with integration with the rest of the prison population for meals and exercise.

All criminals will have their photograph and details of their offences displayed prominently in the town where the offences took place and their home town if that is different. This exercise will take place once convicted and for a period immediately following their release if this is applicable. Should their family move home during the offenders incarceration, then the details will be displayed within the new location.

Would you vote for me?

[Balddood]

Improvement Suggestions.

1.No-one will be eligible for unemployment benefit, housing benefit or such like without a proven minimum employment record of at least 18 months in any 2 year period.

2. No-one under the age of 18 will qualify for any of the above benefits.

All class rooms will have surveilance cameras so that any bullying can be spotted early and any other disruptive behaviour within the learning environment. Parents will be shown any incriminating footage and will be offered the opportunity to speak to their child. Three reported instances and the child will be expelled with only fee paying alternatives offered to the parents.

3. On leaving school those not entering in to full time education and have no employment organised will carry out 3 years National Service.

4.Any juvenile committing any crime will be displayed in a town centre location wearing a placard which outlines their offences.

5.The parent of any youth being found guilty of committing any crime will be sentenced to imprisonment. This is with a view to see parents take more control of their children and be more interested in their whereabouts and activities.

6.A Community Pride scheme will be introduced where youths will be involved in projects that benefit their community and give them a sense of pride in their surroundings and so perhaps steer away from wanton vandalism. They will gain credits which will be promoted to future employers.

7. Anyone ever found guilty of any kind of benefit fraud will be imprisoned, their right to any future benefit instantly removed and an attachment to any future earnings will be put in place so that the full amount defrauded is repaid. All assets will be confiscated until the full debt is repaid.

Immigration.

1. No one will be accepted as an immigrant unless the following apply:
They have a verifiable clean criminal record.

They possess a basic working knowledge of the English language. This includes being able to complete any official paperwork themselves.

They accept that to live in the U.K. a good level of integration and accepting of the customs and practices of the country will be embraced.

They have employment arranged and this again must be verifiable.

No immigrant moving to the U.K. will be liable to any benefits apart from emergency medical care for the first 24 months.

The committing of any crime or being involved in any criminal activity will see the rights of residency in the U.K. instantly removed and that of their immediate family.

All immigrants must persue legal employment which can be confirmed and pay contributions from earnings. Any employer using cash in hand for cheaper workers who do not contribute to the system, will be fined heavily.

Crime in general.
Full tariff sentences will be served at all times with no remission or parole.

Repeat offending will attract double tariff sentences.

No special category status will ever be allowed.

Sexual abuse, child abuse, murder, domestic abuse murder, attacks on the elderly or complete innocent strangers, among others will at all times attract a full term life sentence. This type of offender will be held in the barest of cells with no comforts apart from basic necessities. They will be held in solitary confinement with integration with the rest of the prison population for meals and exercise.

All criminals will have their photograph and details of their offences displayed prominently in the town where the offences took place and their home town if that is different. This exercise will take place once convicted and for a period immediately following their release if this is applicable. Should their family move home during the offenders incarceration, then the details will be displayed within the new location.

Would you vote for me?

Vote for you? If you could make that happen i'd marry you :D

Sean

Bigot, racist... etc...

[laMon]

just watching dispatches on ch4, it really makes you cringe, forget the Poles who work...

41 million NHS extra bill for people who brought AIDs from abroad, and 21 million for TB or Malaria (escapes me which one)

they all have come as asylum seekers from war torn African countries.

I have a pupil (i'm a driving instructor), Somalian woman of 29. she does not work because she has 7 children, husband only works 3 days a week, they live in a 4bed house in Blackheath (very expensive!) have 2 cars, and she drives illegally as well. She can afford to pay me £21 per hour.

Is there a solution? Can we really blame these people for milking the system.
It's in their culture to breed. maybe a baby mortality rate or lack of knowledge or contraception, cheap labour or all of those things...

Fact is some of us would never consider having 7 children, and dedicating our lives to them. i know i only could just about afford one, as i wanted to give him good life and things that he would look forward to and aspire to achieve.

What really peeps me off in UK is lack of respect in general and too much PC. too much pc = lack of respect...

Police seem to be just puppets when it comes to teenagers, and bad behavior is not punished but rewarded.

It would be good if common sense become a little bit more common:rolleyes:

If you did not put into the pot you should not be able to take out regardless of where you were born.

[laMon]

Improvement Suggestions.


Would you vote for me?

when are you coming down PLEASE HURRY!!!!! my vote is in! oh crap i can't vote as i did not bother getting a British passport after 21 years of being here:p, but if you come back I'll do it just to be able to vote for you:smt060

[Biker Biggles]

Pedro you old liberal.;-)

[Ablazze]

Regarding the undercutting of builders by eastern eurpoean labour. I've been on site's where plumbers, brickies etc are earning more than architects who have studied for 7 yrs.....clearly in the past there has been a skills shortage in the construction industry and now the immigrant labour is addressing that.


I do wish the middle classes wouldnt post about things they dont live thru ( & north is as bad just used your quote as it was same as hes said but not in 5,000 words :P ) as a working class bloke ( poorly educated ) but not work shy as the gentry like to call us, all these poles etc coming in may be great so you can build your extensions & pools cheaply, but it all adds to an employment envioment that keeps low skilled pay down, prolly not the biggest worry for you guys but sure as hell is for me & my bank manager....

Jas...

[El Dopa]

Well, I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in.....

I drop in here every so often cos I used to own an SV, and I like to keep in touch with what the biker on the street in the UK is thinking.

I'm qualified to at least express an opinion, I suppose - left the UK five years ago for NZ. So if you want to know about that, heres a few thoughts.

The good

The weather is generally better in the northern part. We get a lot of rain in the winter, and maybe frost 3-4 times. Snow down south in the winter, but not in Auckland.

Our 'quality of life' (whatever that means) is better. I live more or less centrally in Auckland. I have a beach a 10 minute stroll from my front door. I own a 4-bedroom house with a front and a back garden. I catch a ferry to work - it's always on time (typhoons excluded....), so it always takes me exactly 1/2 hr door to door (no leaves on the line with ferries).

I stumbled blindly into a change of career which I love and which offers a realistic prospect of good and well-paid advancement.

This is an excellent place to bring up children. State school education is ok, depending on where you live. But there are fewer really rotten areas than the UK. Generally, your kids can run riot in the local parks/beaches, etc without anything more than the normal worries.

There's the usual whingers, but most Kiwis are friendly, polite, and an absolute pleasure to work with (unlike most of my UK ex-colleagues, who generally acted like actually doing some work was more than their job was worth, and death would be a merciful release). Most kiwis work hard and have more initiative and 'get up and go' than the average pom, in my experience.

bikes - the roads here are pretty bike friendly, and you can get to them quickly, even from the centre of auckland when you fancy a scratch. If tracks are your thing, it's easier and cheaper to get on them. Not so much in the way of track choice, though.

The bad

You're miles from anywhere else in the world. This country is really, really isolated. You can't get a Ryanair 1 quid special if you want to nip over to Europe for a dirty weekend. Australia is 4 hours away, and that's 12 hours from anywhere else 'western', for want of a better word.

You'll see your family and friends once every two years, if you're lucky. Think about that very carefully if you're planning on moving away.

You can probably reasonably easily get a fairly well-paying job, unless you're a complete no-mark. Well-paying by local standards. Go abroad (i.e. not NZ) with NZ dollars and you'll think they've evaporated. This means you won't go back to visit the UK very much. Or anywhere else.

If you bring UK pounds over, you'll be able to get decent property. Otherwise forget it in Auckland - your mortgage will be london-style big in terms of the percentage of your NA wage which goes into servicing it.

Property outside auckland is fairly affordable.

Anywhere outside Auckland is very isolated, and attitudes tend towards the provincial, to put it mildly. News is only news if a Kiwi is on it (1,000,000,000 die in earthquake - what does it mean for our dairy farmers? We interview the family of the one kiwi who was there and got a nasty scratch, etc)

The only city of any size (in UK terms) is Auckland, and its also the only one with anything that even approaches a cosmopolitan, world-class status. People from Wellington will try to tell you otherwise, but they're wrong. Sorry about that, Wellingtonians, but it's true.

Anywhere except for Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch would barely qualify as a small town in the UK.

Public transport in auckland (except the ferries, which are excellent) is rubbish. You'll end up driving/riding everywhere. A personal vehicle is a necessity. Traffic in the rush-hour periods is bad, but not (quite) london bad. Wellington similar. Anywhere else doesn't have any population, so no traffic.

Bikes - costs are about the same as the UK (but your wages are lower, so the prices are proportionally higher). It's much harder to get trick or rare bits - the population is too small to support a market. Importing (e.g. buying on ebay and shipping over) will double the price.

Other road users tend towards the homicidal - even more so than the UK.

For bikes, the concerns are almost exactly the same - ******** cops, stupidly enforced speed limits, ******** cagers, etc etc etc. Except there is more of a cat/mouse game element to the bike/cop thing - the cops can be ********s, but they can also be reasonable. Radar detectors aren't illegal, and you can get away with more mods without your bike becoming street illegal.

Jobs

There is a small population here. If your job is specialised, you will struggle to find work. I'm an engineer by background, and worked in a variety of heavy-industry type jobs in the UK. Most engineering here is light fabrication-style work. I struggled at first.

Do your research very thoroughly. Most jobs here are word of mouth and casual networking, just because the population is small enough to allow that to work.

The general

Apart from that, do not repeat not think that you'll be moving to some sort of nirvana where the usual problems don't apply and you've shucked off your cares like some sort of dead skin. You'll feel like that for 3 months, and then reality will bite.

People are people wherever you are, and I'm always struck by the fact that UK concerns are almost exactly the same as here: crime....blahblahblah....immigration....blahblahbl ah.....education....toomanybludgersonwelfare....bl ahblahblah.....hospitals....blahblahblah....yoofgo newildwouldhavebeendifferentinmydayspellin thearmywouldsortthemoutitsPCgonemadItellyou.....Im movingtoAustraliatheyvegotitsomuchbetteroverthere. ....and so on.

Conclusion: Its better for me here than it would be in the UK. I ain't inclined to move back. But...I miss my family and friends a lot, and I've been very lucky in stumbling into a job/career I never knew existed, but which suits me like it was tailor-made. I've also been lucky with elderly relatives dying and leaving me bits and bobs of UK money, which helped a lot (not a lot in UK terms, but quite a windfall in Kiwi terms).

Do your research and think very carefully before you uproot yourself.

Reckon that's about enough for now. Doubt I'll be lurking again for a while, so i won't really be around to answer questions or discuss this. So feel free to talk amongst yourselves.

Final thing: If 'vote BNP' is your answer, you really, really need to think pretty carefully about what your question is. Over-simplified solutions usually only suit over-simplified problems.

[Mike2165]

Improvement Suggestions.

1.No-one will be eligible for unemployment benefit, housing benefit or such like without a proven minimum employment record of at least 18 months in any 2 year period.

2. No-one under the age of 18 will qualify for any of the above benefits.

All class rooms will have surveilance cameras so that any bullying can be spotted early and any other disruptive behaviour within the learning environment. Parents will be shown any incriminating footage and will be offered the opportunity to speak to their child. Three reported instances and the child will be expelled with only fee paying alternatives offered to the parents.

3. On leaving school those not entering in to full time education and have no employment organised will carry out 3 years National Service.

4.Any juvenile committing any crime will be displayed in a town centre location wearing a placard which outlines their offences.

5.The parent of any youth being found guilty of committing any crime will be sentenced to imprisonment. This is with a view to see parents take more control of their children and be more interested in their whereabouts and activities.

6.A Community Pride scheme will be introduced where youths will be involved in projects that benefit their community and give them a sense of pride in their surroundings and so perhaps steer away from wanton vandalism. They will gain credits which will be promoted to future employers.

7. Anyone ever found guilty of any kind of benefit fraud will be imprisoned, their right to any future benefit instantly removed and an attachment to any future earnings will be put in place so that the full amount defrauded is repaid. All assets will be confiscated until the full debt is repaid.

Immigration.

1. No one will be accepted as an immigrant unless the following apply:
They have a verifiable clean criminal record.

They possess a basic working knowledge of the English language. This includes being able to complete any official paperwork themselves.

They accept that to live in the U.K. a good level of integration and accepting of the customs and practices of the country will be embraced.

They have employment arranged and this again must be verifiable.

No immigrant moving to the U.K. will be liable to any benefits apart from emergency medical care for the first 24 months.

The committing of any crime or being involved in any criminal activity will see the rights of residency in the U.K. instantly removed and that of their immediate family.

All immigrants must persue legal employment which can be confirmed and pay contributions from earnings. Any employer using cash in hand for cheaper workers who do not contribute to the system, will be fined heavily.

Crime in general.
Full tariff sentences will be served at all times with no remission or parole.

Repeat offending will attract double tariff sentences.

No special category status will ever be allowed.

Sexual abuse, child abuse, murder, domestic abuse murder, attacks on the elderly or complete innocent strangers, among others will at all times attract a full term life sentence. This type of offender will be held in the barest of cells with no comforts apart from basic necessities. They will be held in solitary confinement with integration with the rest of the prison population for meals and exercise.

All criminals will have their photograph and details of their offences displayed prominently in the town where the offences took place and their home town if that is different. This exercise will take place once convicted and for a period immediately following their release if this is applicable. Should their family move home during the offenders incarceration, then the details will be displayed within the new location.

Would you vote for me?

If you add abolishing speed cameras, then you get my vote too

[Bear]

I yawned because you bore the sh!t out of me. You always jump in and have your opinion and it seems you think it's the only one that counts, it isn't. Your facts and figures, which you profess are always correct, don't mean squat to the average Brit. Even when people who are suffering as a direct result of the immigrant influx, i.e builders, myself etc, give people an insight as to what they see day in day out, you come back with your facts and statistics. Well, to be fair, you can cram them. There are people on here who couldn't care less about them. We see what is happening to our country and we don't like it one bit.

This is, to my knowledge, an open forum where anyone can post their opinion on almost any subject. Please don't think you have the monopoly to come here and try to belittle any other person's opinion. You may well know more people on here than i, again, i don't give a toss. I love my country, my fellow Brits and everything that our previous generations fought for in order for us to be able to live the lifestyles which we should be entitled to. This is the last i will post on the matter and you will not bait me again with you incessant piffle. You have your opinion, I have mine, and no matter how many of your "facts" you post here will change them.

Sean

Ok, so I don't annoy Sean with facts and figures, here's my feelings on the matter which will obviously please him more...

The reason that the BNP has this irritating racist appearance is because it is an institutionally racist organisation. It may well be that the leaders of it wish to dispell this myth, but many of it's members do not. I am speaking from personal experience here as some members of my extended family are in the BNP and are a bunch of racist f*ckwits. This is not an image problem that can simply be swept under the carpet. An organisation that contains a majority of racist members will inherently be a racist organisation.

As for your assertions (In the face of contrary evidence) that immigration is a drain on this country because people don't spend all their money here: Balls. The same applies for anyone who puts money into a bank account and doesn't spend it all every month.

The solutions offered for unemployment: why don't we just go the whole hog and introduce forced labor camps? That'd get them off the streets, then maybe, since WE don't want the immigrants, and their countries don't either, it'd probably just be humane to put them out of their misery, that'd be a solution. The final solution. Of course, with all this forced labour, we could sort a lot of the problems out with the country. The trains would run on time for starters...

Now, were did I put my stupid little moustache and swept over hair...

Insisting that your feelings are more important than trivial facts that contradict them makes no sense at all.

The statement that should obviously apply to all posts, but sometimes needs to be stated so people don't accuse you of being the PC police for having a different opinion to them: All of what is written here is purely MY OPINION. You are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine. If you post something on a public board that others may disagree with, expect people to disagree and don't take it personally.