Horn Relay

[the_lone_wolf]

ok, some maths, because everyone loves maths...

what's that? only me? oh well then.....

530Hz = 530 cycles per second

therefore each cycle is approximately 1/500th of a second = 0.002 seconds

to initiate a 180 phase shift, you would have to have one horn sound while the other is at exactly one half cycle, so that's a time delay of 0.001 seconds (half of 0.002)

at the speed of light, the current will cover 3x10^6 metres in that time, so one wire would need to be 3,000km longer than the other.

this is all beside the point though, the actual horns themselves would need to produce the exact same tone, at exactly the same delay from when the current flows into the device, which isn't going to happen in real life

[yorkie_chris]

You've got some pulsing in the charging system too... don't forget that!

Anyway, the twin stebels are a different frequency anyway when you buy a "left" and "right" pair, so it's a moot point.

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

You've got some pulsing in the charging system too... don't forget that!

Anyway, the twin stebels are a different frequency anyway when you buy a "left" and "right" pair, so it's a moot point.

Yup, you're right about charging for the air compression. However, I bought two single magnums, not a left/right pair.

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

there is some other explanation to what you experienced

Come then, out with it. As I said, both magnums had power when pressing the button, but no sound was audiable. The only change to the entire system, was that I changed the length of one wire (to match the length of the other). Heypresto, it worked. I even used the same spade connectors (bar one) as I chopped the wire & put a new spade on it.

[the_lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Baph

Come then, out with it.

i never claimed to know what caused it, i just showed that it would be impossible for changing the length of the wire to cause the effect you describe

keep pitching ideas and i'll offer my opinion on whether they're realistic

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

i never claimed to know what caused it, i just showed that it would be impossible for changing the length of the wire to cause the effect you describe

Funny that, as that's the only thing I changed.

How's about you come to NW and I'll open the bike up, we can try different lengths of wire until you're satisfied?

[the_lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Baph

Funny that, as that's the only thing I changed.

apparently not, otherwise the situation would have yielded the same result...

How's about you come to NW and I'll open the bike up, we can try different lengths of wire until you're satisfied?

how about you give me a reasonable explanation as to why the length of the wire could be the causative factor? because i've already debunked your original theory by showing you how much longer one wire will need to be in order to produce destructive interference between the two tones, unless you've got 2000 miles of cable and a theoretically prefect tone generator stashed under your seat it ain't going to happen

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

i've already debunked your original theory by showing you how much longer one wire will need to be in order to produce destructive interference between the two tones, unless you've got 2000 miles of cable and a theoretically prefect tone generator stashed under your seat it ain't going to happen

Really? That's funny, I thought you hadn't taken into account the time the motor takes to spin up to speed to start compression, then there's the fact that pressure builds in the chamber logarithmically, and that it's a pulsed charging system.

I thought you'd assumed that the sound is produced the instant the electron reaches the pump...

You did tell me though, that all I needed was a 0.001 second delay in the sound coming from the air chamber on the magnum to achieve the effect I described.

[the_lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Baph

Really? That's funny, I thought you hadn't taken into account the time the motor takes to spin up to speed to start compression, then there's the fact that pressure builds in the chamber logarithmically, and that it's a pulsed charging system.

go on then, impress me... why would that make any difference? don't just tell me i haven't considered it, explain why you think it's going to make such a difference, then i can explain why it won't

if anything the time that the motor needs to spin up and begin compression is a MASSIVE opportunity for variation in the delay in the voltage being applied to the horn and the sound emerging, variation that would completely mask the effectively zero difference from changing the length of the wire which you seem to think is the cause

Originally Posted by Baph

I thought you'd assumed that the sound is produced the instant the electron reaches the pump...

as before, if it didn't, and the horn doesn't reproduce the exact same delay each time it's activated, then the variations between the delay each time the horn activates would change the difference in phase wouldn't it? not quite the same as "the only thing i changed was the length of the wire" - congratulations for highlighting the point i made earlier that the other variations in the real life system would completely dwarf ANY undetectable difference the length of the connecting wire has

Originally Posted by Baph

You did tell me though, that all I needed was a 0.001 second delay in the sound coming from the air chamber on the magnum to achieve the effect I described.

no, i said that in order for two waves of frequency ~500Hz to form destructive interference they would need to be 0.001s out of phase, they would also need to exist in a theoretical world where the two waves are emitted from the same point source. in the real world this is nothing like the case, both of your ears would have to be an integer number of wavelengths from both sources, you would have to account for echos within the horn mouth itself and around the bike, in the garage etc. sorry, but it's nowhere near as simple as you think it is

You took a long long time to write that.

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

go on then, impress me...

I know what I witnessed, and what I changed. Why do I need to impress anyone?

I spent a good couple of hours head scratching, wondering why there was no sound when both horns had current passing through them, the button was pressed many many times, thereby ruling out motor spins/charging rate from the equation - if that were the case, one of the horns would of gone back to the shop, and it's a factor I considered whilst playing with the DMM.

Again, the only thing that was changed was the length of one of the wires, and one blue spade connector.

Throw theory at me all you like, I've physically done it. I know of other .Org'ers that have expierenced similar issues (namely one that had the exact same issue, and another that had a horn that sounded "like a flat cow fart"). Again, those issues were with multiple horns on the same frequency, and the lengths of wire were changed to correct the issue.

NB, not that it makes much difference, but your maths is for the lower tone of the nautilus, whereas my horns are Magnums. But then, we're only talking a couple of hundred megahertz at best.

[the_lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by Baph

NB, not that it makes much difference, but your maths is for the lower tone of the nautilus, whereas my horns are Magnums. But then, we're only talking a couple of hundred megaherta at best.

i don't think the human ear can hear megahertz