Wet weather braking.

Originally Posted by Bear

I hope no-one takes offense at anything I've written here, I don't want it to seem like I'm personally attacking Lozzo or Mototech, and if you feel I have then I apologise. I just disagree with the points you have made!

No offence taken. I just voiced an opinion I'd heard elsewhere, giving their reasons why it should work. I've never tried it myself, but thought I'd add a little something to the mix and see what the response was.

IMO, a lot of half truths here and some bad advice mixed in, no way I would even think of relying on the back to anything apart from get me round a u turn. The front is where the braking force is at any speed over 20ish, the problem here is that you feelthat you have more control when using the back cos you have more options when it goes wrong. However weight is thrown forward if your actually slowing down and then friction is your friend. Exploiting that can only be done on the front wet or dry, the problem is that when it goes wrong, as we all know it goes wrong quick! So if your good, which trust me I ain't, then front all the way. If your like most of us then use the back in proportion to the front according to your level of skill. And remember that there are no rules, just a learning curve that were all on, and always will be on no matter how good we think we are. Having said that, please amend the advice along the lines of 'only use the back in the wet' cos its just plain wrong imho

Originally Posted by plowsie

Hold up has someone changed the posts over to a new thread?

Front braking while turning is easy aslong as you do it on the know how and sensibly, use it quite often TBH, I have had the odd slide been a bit hot or too aggresive on the lever, you live and learn if you do it safely.

I did post to a thread... I think.

As for braking into corners... In the dry yea its fun, easy and controlable, but in wet with potental diesel/oil spills (which you cant always see) you are asking to be thrown up the road!

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

someone broke the forum

Idd

Originally Posted by ASM-Forever

+2

If you don't use your front brake in the wet, then please make us a video for youtube.

Its EASY. Keep your distance (like you should) and use the engine to brake for you. I can do it dead easy. I would post on youtube if I could. I have no camera or mount.

Originally Posted by dizzyblonde

engine braking is the key for me. Slow down in good time, I still very rarely use the rear brake. Front brake is gently applied after a smooth slow down.---on an Sv. If you have to grab it, you were riding too fast in the first place, if persay you were heading for a set of red lights or junction. However in an emergency....for instance Mr magoo that didn't see yoooo- apply front brake asap.

just my theory and its not let me down, I could go on and on about what your instructor taught you, but in the real world...........

I agree.

I have had it tuck on me twice from using the front brake. I wasnt even using it hard... Liturally shaving speed off, not trying to stop hard at all. Once on diesel and once on dirt/mud from a tractor, both of which was difficult to see when i looked while stood next to it before you say anything, Infact someone said oh there was a diesel spill there yesterday before i could see it. The only reason I mentioned it is to save people the grief I had to go through. Its so easy to do esp if you havnt been riding long. Its easy to get away without using the front imo.

Engine braking is the best way. Youll get down to 20MPH very quickly and then the back will finish it off to 0mph without any issues.

In summer I am one of the late brakers its fun, its easy then to see that there is a nice serface to stop on so I consider it safe practice.

I dont see the point in been overly aggressive when the weather isnt good. I have nothing to prove by it so when the weather is bad I ride with a good distances, start to brake with plenty of time and just generally try to keep the bike right side down.

Please just take care if you are using the front in bad weather!

I'm a new rider, only started last May, but I love my bike and have ridden over 5000 miles since then, I have ridden in everything but snow....

For me if its contolled (not an oh crap and something has pulled out in front me of me) I may drop down a gear apply the front then then the rear and then apply the front harder.

The idea being putting the weight of the bike down the folks, so I'm stopping on my powerful front brakes, my front tyre is gripping the road, then the rear slows again, then the front now gripping slows me totally.

This is how I was taugh to ride. Is it right I don't know, has it saved me and me bike for sure, on several occasions. If anyone has any suggesions on how to improve my braking then go ahead.

I'm looking and planning a lot more than I did now as well, so in the mind set of what if that car moves, or I know for fact that car hasn't seen me, as happned tonight. I was bit ****ed off and pointed out to the driver they had nearly knocked me off stuipd cow

I have no idea what was going in my mind, but I grabbed the front in the wet last w/end it just went, I manage to hold it but scared myslef in the process. I was totally ****ed off though casue I was still dealing with my car and upset.

Originally Posted by bluethunder

I have no idea what was going in my mind, but I grabbed the front in the wet last w/end it just went, I manage to hold it but scared myslef in the process. I was totally ****ed off though casue I was still dealing with my car and upset.

Id say you were lucky there! So often there is no saving it when the front loses grip.

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by ThEGr33k

stuff

For the purposes of discussion,

Do you think that your offs were caused by the front brake or a mixture off

1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.

Ask yourself honestly, do you think that if you were more practised in braking and using the front brake / rear brake together that you could have avoided those accidents.

As for engine braking yes you can slow right down to crawling speed but it takes time to do so, I would hazard a guess that on the same piece of wet road, a rider that was proficient and confident in the use of the front brake would stop in less distance and in just as controlled manner than you would just be using the engine braking / rear brake to stop you.

Its all very well planning ahead, but sometimes stuff happens and you need to take emergency / avoiding action even on a wet road using the front brake properly will see you stop or scrub more speed off than just relying on the engine braking or the rear brake by itself will.

I realise and I know that grabbing a handful will see you on the floor quickly, this is why you have to practice braking and get used to the feel and find where the limit is. So that if you do have to use it you know what to do and don't panic and wake up in a ditch or worse.

Personally as I said before I think you rob yourself of a valuable tool by being afraid of or just not using the front brake properly its your best tool for stopping. I read the Nial McKenzie thing about braking in TWO also and he said IIRC if you're only going to use one brake, use the front. There was even a picture of him pulling a stoppie in the wet... yes I know he is a skilled rider and more skilled than I will ever be, but it does prove what you can do if you know what you are doing.

I agree about being more cautious and gentle in the wet etc and I know its easier to recover from a wheel rear lockup, but again being proficent with the front / rear brake wont get you into that situation in the first place.

As a general note, seems to be a general consensus that engine braking is the holy grail and its not. I think its bl**dy dangerous to only rely on one technique / method to slow down. You want as many tools / techniques in your arsenal IMHO.

[northwind]

Originally Posted by dizzyblonde

engine braking is the key for me. Slow down in good time, I still very rarely use the rear brake. Front brake is gently applied after a smooth slow down.---on an Sv. If you have to grab it, you were riding too fast in the first place, if persay you were heading for a set of red lights or junction. However in an emergency....for instance Mr magoo that didn't see yoooo- apply front brake asap.

The way I see it, if you don't use the brakes much, when you have to use them you're going to be less practiced in using them.

I think there's some sense in the idea of not using the rear brake if you're not fully comfortable on the bike- if you've only got so much brain power to devote to braking, put it where it counts. So when you're relatively new it can make sense as a stop-gap, since it's better to get, say, 50% efficiency from the front than 25% efficiency from both ends.

There's a common theme on US forums saying basically, "Never use the back brake", along with its friends "Rossi never uses the back brake, why should I?" and "When you're using the front properly the back wheel will be in the air" which makes me want to hurt people.

Originally Posted by ThEGr33k

Id say you were lucky there! So often there is no saving it when the front loses grip.

I would like to think it was skill, who knows, but I do know if you panic then things go wrong, I commute a lot so pratice riding very slowly when I filter through tight gaps, so I think that I have balance and good bike control.

This might crap as not many of have seen me ride, but what I'm doing is working, I just want to make it good, ideally be the best I can.

That was the first time I locked the front. The hardest thing for a newer rider is, to work out what is crap advice and what works. I don't want to try something and end up on the floor.........

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

For the purposes of discussion,

Do you think that your offs were caused by the front brake or a mixture off

1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.

Ask yourself honestly, do you think that if you were more practised in braking and using the front brake / rear brake together that you could have avoided those accidents.

As for engine braking yes you can slow right down to crawling speed but it takes time to do so, I would hazard a guess that on the same piece of wet road, a rider that was proficient and confident in the use of the front brake would stop in less distance and in just as controlled manner than you would just be using the engine braking / rear brake to stop you.

Its all very well planning ahead, but sometimes stuff happens and you need to take emergency / avoiding action even on a wet road using the front brake properly will see you stop or scrub more speed off than just relying on the engine braking or the rear brake by itself will.

I realise and I know that grabbing a handful will see you on the floor quickly, this is why you have to practice braking and get used to the feel and find where the limit is. So that if you do have to use it you know what to do and don't panic and wake up in a ditch or worse.

Personally as I said before I think you rob yourself of a valuable tool by being afraid of or just not using the front brake properly its your best tool for stopping. I read the Nial McKenzie thing about braking in TWO also and he said IIRC if you're only going to use one brake, use the front. There was even a picture of him pulling a stoppie in the wet... yes I know he is a skilled rider and more skilled than I will ever be, but it does prove what you can do if you know what you are doing.

I agree about being more cautious and gentle in the wet etc and I know its easier to recover from a wheel rear lockup, but again being proficent with the front / rear brake wont get you into that situation in the first place.

As a general note, seems to be a general consensus that engine braking is the holy grail and its not. I think its bl**dy dangerous to only rely on one technique / method to slow down. You want as many tools / techniques in your arsenal IMHO.

I never said "stuff"

I do use the front brake, Only when I have to. Ive seen the things about doing stoppies in the wet. I know its all about loading the front. Nial knew that there isnt anything on the road that could effect grip. Diesel isnt always visible (which I did say in my last post), ill bet if you tried that on diesel he'd be on his side... unless his skill stretches to levitation.

Yes you are right if I used the front brake in every instance then I can brake later and stop faster, I do that in the dry when the risk is reduced, more grip + diesel isnt as slippy in dry, arguably not slippy at all in the dry. You see its all about risk management, whats the point in putting yourself at more risk by braking late in the wet. If im already slowing down when something pulls out then ill have more time to react than someone just starting to brake.

Some people will be lucky and brake late on their front brakes and never have the bad luck of bad road surface from spills etc, others like me could be unlucky and come across bad surfaces and down the bike.

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

1. Not reading the road properly.
2. Going to fast for the road conditions.
3. Poor application of the front brake.

1. Couldnt see the hazard (as I said in my post above).
2. Was going 30MPH in a 30 zone... Cant see how that was too fast.
3. Like I mentioned I liturally pulled it to JUST biting, bam down I go. How else can I apply it? Diesel is STUPID slippy in the wet, Id argue worse than Ice, Ive riden on ice, 2 wheel slides arnt fun!

So my basic points will be:-

You can use the front but why would you need to if you slow down earlier and safer (however you look at it)?

Slowing down earlier will give more time to adjust for upcomming events.

You have more control over a rear wheel slide than a front.

Engine braking rarely locks up the wheel if you use the gears right and does stop you quickly enough if you start to stop at the right point.

Originally Posted by bluethunder

I would like to think it was skill

Seriously if you were on diesel you would be on the floor watching your bike go the other way before you can say "Oh dear". It is THAT bad! There simply is no skill in it.

On normal road conditions then nice one you realised it was locked up and let it off. Skill emplies you knew exactly what you were doing and what to do to correct it, my guess is you reacted instinctivly and it fixed the problem.