Knife crime - petition
 

I was thinking about starting a petition for the government, after watching Question Time last night, where one of the topics they discussed was knife crime...

I believe that those that are caught with knives, weapons with the intent to harm (under 21) should not go to prison, but should do National Service.

I found a petition already formed with the exact same view...

I reckon you guys will agree and get behind it too -
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/natservforyouth/

It makes sense, I just wish the powers that be would see sense too! :rolleyes:

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Peace lovin' tree huggin' hippy says..... no :D

Probably not a huge suprise there :D Trouble with national service ideas at the moment is that you're quite likely to get deployed. And deployed you stand a chance (thankfully still quite small but definitely significant) of coming back in a body bag or missing some limbs. And that then raises the penalty for any given crime from "X months/years in prison" to "death penalty". Which, you'll not be suprised to learn, also doesn't sit too well with peace lovin tree huggin free lovin hippies :D Secondly, sticking crims on active service does nothing for the safety, wellbeing, or moral of regular law abiding volunteers they're fighting alongside.

On the knife crime "epidemic" it's worth noting that if you remove London from the figures then knife crime is very rare - something like 40% of all assaults with knives are in London - ergo this isn't a "national epidemic" but rather an inner city problem affecting the capital. Teen on teen violence, guns and knives taken together, is actually pretty much static. These two bits make interesting reading - http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...and_teens.html and http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport..._epidemic.html

The major problem in drawing up legislation to combat knife crime is that knives are just damn handy tools to have around. It's so hard to define what is and what isn't a reasonable requirement to carry one. Even excluding cooking I probably use one daily, whether it's getting through parcel tape or stripping wires. I keep a swiss army knife in the car glovebox and tend to keep one on the bike too. They're unlikely to be needed but it's not unimaginable that they'd be needed and in the past they have indeed come in handy.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

I am going to have to disagree with this statement, I am a youth worker, and I do not live nor work in London, I work in Southampton. The kids do carry knives in Southampton, although along with drugs and alcohol I have made it VERY clear to the YP who come to the club, that none of these will be tolerated, and that they should leave such items at home, outside...whatever...

They know the youth club is a safe haven, but it isn't outside, there are regular 'gang' related fights...

The government are saying zero tolerance to knives...therefore punishment is five years no parole. But on the other hand they are saying, reduce sentences because the prisons are full...what message does this then say to the youngsters...??

It say's they are likely to get off with CS. It is not a good system. There needs to be something else. A real deterrent. :cool:

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Most peeps on here know I'm :plod:

Other than locking up a lad a couple of months ago for having a knuckleduster, I haven't come across/heard of much of a "weapon culture" within my force area.

Runs off to touch the nearest peice of wood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm on a neighbourhood Policing team, so get loads of contact with teens, schools etc, and other than the local "village idiot", (every year at school has one), who is supposed to "carry", it's not very prevalent oop t'North.

Personally I feel that if the media keep reporting it as an epidemic then kids up here will start to do likewise. Why, they feel that everyone else does so they do likewise, it's seen as cool etc etc.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Minimatt - I'm tempted really tempted.............

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

the problem is the media are happy to report the doom and gloom and the problem, but never ever report the times when people are dealt with or caught, so everyone thinks they are 'getting away with it'.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

How the hell do you prove/disprove that a knife is not being carried for a reasonable reason. I used a knife almost daily at work. I lived in my jacket pocket so I always had it when needed. This day and age, I would have to think twice.

I know of pipe smokers who use a knife all the time to clean out the bowl of their pipe, is it reasonable for them to carry their little knives?.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

I used to carry 2x Leatherman Multi-tools and a Leatherman lock-knife as well as all the different bits for the drivers on the multi-tools and knife.

Used to be really useful day-to-day @ work when I was in and out of server rooms (the knife made a better screwdriver than the multi-tools.)

Dont dare carry them now, as "only criminals carry knives"

Its all becoming "thoughtcrime".

The police are being tasked to preventing crime, rather than dealign with it after its happened.

We dont need all these "in case of" laws, just the old ones (assult with a deadly weapon - type) to be enforced properly.

I dont think I should be worried about carrying a knife in my pocket/bag, the police should only be interested if I am waving about, am about to stick it on someone, or have actually done so.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Nice idea, but it's still nothing more than weak attempt to find cure for a symptom instead of the cause.

Fact of the matter is there are an increasing number of disaffected kids roaming the streets with no fear of the law because they feel they have nothing to lose. They feel this way because they think the world dispises them. Ok that might not be too far from the mark for some of the little scrotes, but we shouldn't tell them that, otherwise it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Things like the mosquito sound device show how screwed a society we are more than the issue of knife crime imo.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Damn krhall - I thought you were winding up for a good fight then the first thing you say I agree with you completely!

Clanger, can't disagree with the facts I'm afraid - although my choice of "very rare" was definitely the wrong phrase and I'd have been better off sticking purely to the facts. I certainly can't say that knife crime only goes on in London (and didn't), and the only facts we've got to hand of any relevance are hospital admissions as a result of an assault with a sharp object (very important to seperate these out because certain media circles have been reporting hospital admissions due to injury from a sharp object - far more people cut themselves). Obviously these figures do nothing to indicate how many kids nationwide are carrying knives if not using them. What we can say however is that 40% of those who do use them do so in London.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

But what their excuse or reason for having on them is, and wheter its over 3" or a lock knife if you can't give me a good excuse for the knife you will be arrested simple as that.

My leatherman lives under my bike seat at the moment, but its a tool, I used to carry that all time when I worked TV or do freelance days now, its tool that I need to carry out my job.

Also knife culture in London could be considered a problem I know that there have been serveral arrest for it and have perosnally dealt with it myself helping arrest a robber that used knife to try and rob someone with.

The media do hype things up beyound belief I am wary of the media and have a good understanding how they work, having been in that for serval years, end of the day bad news makes better stories than good ones.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

So, the small swiss army type knife that I used as a tool of my trade is ok in my jacket pocket on the way to/from work?.

But if I pop into the pub on the way home, I am likely to be arrested?

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Guns knives,whatever.Its worth remembering that it isnt the tools that do the crimes,its the scrotes.We have to start thinking in terms of people who are criminals,and have tendencies to commit criminal acts because that is how they think.Take away their knives and they will find some other way to kill.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

So true, reminds me of an old friend whose wife was dallying elsewhere. When he found out, he used the well known phrase "I am going to kill her". Almost immediately plod revoked his firearms certificate and confiscated his pistols.

He appealed to the high court. His argument against revocation of his certificate before the judge :-

"I am an ex US Marine. I served in Korea and know how to kill. If I wanted to kill the lying adulterous bitch, I could strangle her, break her neck, cut her throat. I don't need a gun to kill her. so, can I please have my firearms certificate back".

There was a recommendation that Bill should go back to live in the land of his birth.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

I can't say this is a great surprise.

Me late Missus was from the 3rd world (albeit a "nice" bit) their problem is with machetes. Only a Knife? Bah! Her advice was make sure you have a good handle. Yer don't want it to break off after stabbing them only once. Cos' at that point they will be p#ssed with you. (I paraphrase). Good or bad? somethings just "are".

Looked like butter wouldn't melt etc (well, sometimes!). and perhaps not typical, but by no means unusual..........But the attitude http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif don't get left behind at passport control.....it also rubs off, if not always in actions.......but I can see how it would rub off / carry on in the right (wrong?) environment - whether that be in Timbuktu or Tooting.

Still, I am sure HMG have a plan..........:rolleyes:

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

The thing about the knife law is that is mentions without a valid reason for having a knife on your person.
If you're fishing/hunting/camping it up with scouts or use it for work that's a valid reason.

It's a stupid law anyway, now that all knives are illegal kids are carrying big kitchen knives instead of 3" lock knives. I also don't believe knives are the problem, it's the gangs and the general decline in the British way of life.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Better than National Service Just stop depoying us to Iraq and Afgan ans stick us on Patrol in the **** hole areas of our Citys, I am sure a bunch of C8*ts with Knives aint going to argue with an 8 man patrol properly tooled up for aggresive patroling. Introduce Armoured patrols as well!!

A case leave the knife behind or feel what a proper Bayonet feels like, they are cool with serated edges on one side to cut bone and cartlidge and blood channels to ensure ther is not a vacume seal and it can be removed easily.

Also the tower blocks make excellent Sniper positions to practice from.

The army would be so much more effective at arrests as we dont give a f**k about cracking a few skulls to get people under control.

I for one would love to patrol the **** streets of the UK rather than Souther Iraq, its a lot cooler and with no IED's to watch out for.

As for Concidering national service , Matt i would think its ok if all the street wise cocky ****s are in one platoon etc as then if they dont perform or do as they are told when they are told their first mistake will be their last.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

jails need to be a punishment-no tv,no sports,no smoking etc, chain gangs doing jobs to repay for there crimes etc-we are too soft on the criminals-before i get shot down about human rights what about the rights of decent people to walk the streets without having to worry about getting assaulted -i jailed a habitual knife carrier who has three previous for possession of knives-he gets back out and two months later plunges a innocent guy four times in the back for nothing-give me the choice and i'd lock them away for a minimum of 10 years.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Let us do you Job for a bit and he wont be walking anywhere;)

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

What gets to me about this is that there scumbag lawyers paint them as miss understood but are fully aware what they get up to-i work in the knife crime capital of europe, where doctors from all over the world come to train in our hospitals to study the effects of knife crime on the human body-you just need to go to the royal on a weekend night and it'll sicken you to the core-we've been too soft for too long now and society is paying the price.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

See Clanger - the problem with your cure for knife crime (national service) would be viewed as totally unfair and ridiculous by those in the military as well as many others. The reason for this is that on the one hand we have good people who are willing to obey orders and place their lives on the line whether it be in Iraq or anywhere else...on the other hand, your solution is to 'punish' somebody by sending then to do the same job along with the volunteer. It can't/won't happen and is quite plainly unfair. As a youth worker, you must have some sort of idea how peoples actions should have consequences...these consequences cannot be the same as the work undertaken by those that volunteer for the job/work - it must have some other element that inconveniences them and makes life awkward. Loss of liberty is a good place to start - in my opinion. It might not solve the problem initially but it would give some of us peace of mind and it might make others think a bit before they carried out actions that they may later regret.
National Service is not the answer.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

How about a special regiment for scrotes so the regulars dont have to be part of it?:smt085
A bit like the French Foriegn Legion.
No nice postings like Cyprus either;)

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Or there very own ship marooned in the Sargasso sea...:D

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Funny, you don't look zimbabwean at all neio!

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

+1 theres nothing better than a pick axe handle to stop a fight between two drunks :smt075

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

IMO Lawyers are NOT the problem (BTW I am not a lawyer!) - part of British justice is that everyone gets a lawyer who does not pre-judge yer guilt before the case. I appreciate that not always conveniant or lead to good results - but IMO better than the alternative.

The problem is simply inadequate punishment once convicted (Scumbag lawyer or not - enuf folk do get convicted). If the punishment for stabbing someone was a minimum of 15 years in jail (time served), 10 years for threatening someone and 5 years for simply carrying one (with no reasonable purpose).....this would decrease both the numbers of knives carried and therefore used AND also positively impact on law and (dis)order as those who carry them / threaten with / use will no doubt carry out other crimes if all they receive is a slap on the wrist. 15 years in Clink they ain't gonna be doing anything to anyone on the street.

2 downsides are that results will not be instant. and would cost money. But IMO the money would be spent anyway down the line.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Prisons are full anyway, I've got no idea what to do as I don't think that would work. In the $hithole areas with lots of estates there's no respect for law and order anyway.

I keep thinking of the same thing, if you've never contributed to society in any way, then work or starve. That or start napalming sink estates?

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Prisons are full?

That cos' their are a lot of criminals.

Build more. Lots more. I would DOUBLE the prison space (does not all have to be Cat 1) If it later proves to be excess capacity it means the problem is solved - and a billion quid on a few empty prisons would be a cheap price in the long run.

The cost! the cost! But yer got to take a long term view. Scroats off the street provide a cost saving both through the Criminal injustice system AND more importantly in the wider world.

In any case, we can always find the money for a war (or 2). Their is always the money available if the will is their.......


(BTW I am not saying every Crim needs to be in Prison - plenty could be dealt with from Community Service etc and others should be in Mental health care).

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Cheaper? Prisons are really expensive. Only way to make a cheap prison would be to fire the offenders in the general direction of the hebridis with a slingshot.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Yep , just what you need on the front line in Iraq or Afghanistan when all you,ve got to depend on is your mates around you and then you get lumped with some scumbag wh thinks carrying a knife is 'cool' ,wouldnt work Im afraid.

Re: Knife crime - petition
 

Or instead of national service, why not make em do two years as social workers :D