child tax credits, child benifits etc.

Originally Posted by Pedrosa

Well being a horrible sh*te I'm gonna say this......a couple who naturally cannot produce kids,all of a sudden are kicking out a team full due to chemicals and technology? At the end of the day being unable to produce kids is a condition, just because you would like kids? You know for some it was just not meant to be. There are other conditions that people simply have to accept and get on with,no?

Dunno just don't seem quite right to my warped mind. Please excuse me,I'm fwom Barthelona.

That's rubbish Pete. we have good friends who tried for ages to start a family but couldn't and needed some help. Now they have 3 kida and are a really nice family. They both work hard but earn much less than us, who had 3 kids naturally - do you think it right that we should get the child credit and them not?

I do think that child credits are a hangover from a time when women traditionally stayed at home to bring up kids and the credit was paid direclty to the mother to ensure she could at least get the basics. These days it's not that relevant and I would just replace it with a lower tax rate.

Cheers Keith

Originally Posted by Supervox

Don't need bricks - just the thought of having to move house because we'd need more room is enough incentive - thanks for thinking of me though !!

Get yourself "done" - I did. It doesn't hurt that much. Unfortunately when the pain went, so did the swelling.

well this post got everyone a bit ratty.

when I decided to have my kids I was married. my husband earned excellent money as a submariner in the navy. money was never a problem, neither was credit.

but then I realised I didnt really like him and left him. we sold the house to clear the debts and I looked for a job as a class room assistant as I could not afford the summer holiday child care.

got job, bought flat (council would not give me rented accomodation as i had made myself homeless intentionally).

I earn £9k a year ie £660 a month out of that I have mortgage £400, gas and electric £80, council tax £95, petrol £40 a month, School dinners £80 a month. somehow it doesnt add up. so the £630 a month working tax credit, child tax credit and child benefit helps me feed the kids. we cant exactly run to expensive holidays or designer clothes but we survive.

I would be better off not working ie mortgag paid, no council tax but dont want to do that as if shows kids a bad example. i want them to work hard, get good jobs.

I do get riled when people imply im scrounging off society. I have worked since I was 16. but yes I am a single mum getting benefits.

Think about it this way. I spent a large proportion of my income on employing a childminder. She paid tax on that income. I'd already been taxed on that money. I paid a childminder so I could go to work. Me going to work means I am contributing to HMRC, as does my childminder ..... (and this was before childcare vouchers came in - if only!)

Originally Posted by dirtydog

But it's hardly their fault if they cant have children naturally is it? (well it most cases it's not) Would you be of the same opinion if it was you in that situation? As for multiple births being caused by being full of chemicals isn't actually true it happens because several fertilised eggs are placed in the mother at the same time in the hope that 1 will take and yes a lot of the time more than 1 take in the procedure. But do you really begrudge people that have been trying for years for children but not been able to produce naturally to under go medical treatment for them to have the family that they want? You'll probably also find that most people who have had children using fertility treatment wont have anymore so they're just cutting down time by having them at the same time! Also would you say people that adopt children should be treated differntly to a couple that have had children naturally? Where do you draw the line?

DD and Well Oiled just hear me out for a second....(I hope firstly that you are aware of the devil's advocate element to this particular line I am adopting?)

Ok yes so many people would love to have kids. But is having kids the only reason people get married? If so I think that is very odd indeed. I know many couples who never considered having children at all and have very happy marriages. I have friends who tried and tried but medical advice told them maybe it's best to forget about it.The consideration to have kids should be much further along the line once a truly solid base has been established and that it can be seen that to have children would be an enriching contribution or addition to what they already have.

To appear shocked that I questioned the right for fertility treatment is a little strange also. Why, well let's face it such treatment is a relatively new development and before it, people would accept that much as they would like to,they were not going to be able to have children. In many cases leading them to the next best option which was adoption? A child is a child after all. I don't see that not being the sperm or egg provider negates the emotion and feelings one would have toward say an adopted child?

[G]

Originally Posted by kitkat

I earn £9k a year ie £660 a month out of that I have mortgage £400, gas and electric £80, council tax £95, petrol £40 a month, School dinners £80 a month. somehow it doesnt add up. so the £630 a month working tax credit, child tax credit and child benefit helps me feed the kids. we cant exactly run to expensive holidays or designer clothes but we survive.

so you get the equivalent of £1290 a month after tax.......or looking at it another way thats the equivalent of a job paying around £21.5k salary a year (before tax).

I can appreciate you think that is fair, but not meaning to annoy anyone i think its utterly shocking.

This is by no means a dig at yourself but.........I know of people who have worked damn hard at college for 2 years, then ever harder at uni for 4 years, got in debt and then got a proffesional job to be on that amount........they then pay that much tax on that amount that they cant afford to buy a house or have kids..........the VERY VERY sad fact is, they would have been better off quiting everything after school at 16 and having 2 or 3 kids.

Now THAT is what is desperatley wrong with this countries systems.

[timwilky]

Originally Posted by kitkat

well this post got everyone a bit ratty.

when I decided to have my kids I was married. my husband earned excellent money as a submariner in the navy. money was never a problem, neither was credit.

but then I realised I didnt really like him and left him. we sold the house to clear the debts and I looked for a job as a class room assistant as I could not afford the summer holiday child care.

got job, bought flat (council would not give me rented accomodation as i had made myself homeless intentionally).

I earn £9k a year ie £660 a month out of that I have mortgage £400, gas and electric £80, council tax £95, petrol £40 a month, School dinners £80 a month. somehow it doesnt add up. so the £630 a month working tax credit, child tax credit and child benefit helps me feed the kids. we cant exactly run to expensive holidays or designer clothes but we survive.

I would be better off not working ie mortgag paid, no council tax but dont want to do that as if shows kids a bad example. i want them to work hard, get good jobs.

I do get riled when people imply im scrounging off society. I have worked since I was 16. but yes I am a single mum getting benefits.

Hazel

I would not think of you as a scrounger, you sound typical of my argument. Work, earn a low salary and even pay tax on it. My argument against credits etc. they are complex and do nothing to help people out of poverty. Increasing the minimum wage and reducing the personal tax burden would do more, easier to implement and do away with bureaucracy.

People should be in a position to raise their families without the state directly intervening. The governments job should be to govern and set in place an environment that enables and encourages people to be independent.

[Red ones]

Originally Posted by Pedrosa

But is having kids the only reason people get married? If so I think that is very odd indeed.

In the eyes of the Church procreation is the purpose of marriage, and is clearly stated prior to the ceremony on many occasions!

[dirtydog]

Originally Posted by Pedrosa

DD and Well Oiled just hear me out for a second....(I hope firstly that you are aware of the devil's advocate element to this particular line I am adopting?)

Ok yes so many people would love to have kids. But is having kids the only reason people get married? If so I think that is very odd indeed. I know many couples who never considered having children at all and have very happy marriages. I have friends who tried and tried but medical advice told them maybe it's best to forget about it.The consideration to have kids should be much further along the line once a truly solid base has been established and that it can be seen that to have children would be an enriching contribution or addition to what they already have.

To appear shocked that I questioned the right for fertility treatment is a little strange also. Why, well let's face it such treatment is a relatively new development and before it, people would accept that much as they would like to,they were not going to be able to have children. In many cases leading them to the next best option which was adoption? A child is a child after all. I don't see that not being the sperm or egg provider negates the emotion and feelings one would have toward say an adopted child?

Yes I am aware of the line you are taking whicj is why I am putting my point across without resorting to name calling etc as that's what normally happens on here


As for getting married as being the reason to have children, I've not mentioned getting married once, neither do i disagree that a solid base should be in place before considering children but as with all things life doesn't always go to plan.

Why is it strange that I should be shocked that you questioned the right of fertility treatment? So what if it's a fairly new procedure/treatment. Saying that before this if people couldn't have children then they accepted that fact and moved onto the next option of adoption I suppose you could adopt that stance on any medical condition couldn't you? What about the mentaly ill? they used to be locked up in institutions/hospitals but now some of them can be treated with drugs/therapy should they not get this treatment as it's fairly new treatment should they just be locked away so not to trouble anyone?

As for a child being a child then no not being the biological parenty doesn't negate the emotions or feelings towards that child.

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Yes I am aware of the line you are taking whicj is why I am putting my point across without resorting to name calling etc as that's what normally happens on here


As for getting married as being the reason to have children, I've not mentioned getting married once, neither do i disagree that a solid base should be in place before considering children but as with all things life doesn't always go to plan.

Why is it strange that I should be shocked that you questioned the right of fertility treatment? So what if it's a fairly new procedure/treatment. Saying that before this if people couldn't have children then they accepted that fact and moved onto the next option of adoption I suppose you could adopt that stance on any medical condition couldn't you? What about the mentaly ill? they used to be locked up in institutions/hospitals but now some of them can be treated with drugs/therapy should they not get this treatment as it's fairly new treatment should they just be locked away so not to trouble anyone?

As for a child being a child then no not being the biological parenty doesn't negate the emotions or feelings towards that child.

DD....Do you think that perhaps fertility treatment,(perhaps in a more rudimentary form) has been around for longer than we thought? Maybe Mary was a virgin after all! Fertility treatment in them there days was called "immaculate conception?" My word you live and learn!