NI Number talk

[Jayneflakes]

Originally Posted by Luckypants

Or you get sent to be a field medic, recovering casualties under fire. This is what 'conscientious objectors' did in both World Wars.

Ooh Noes...

I can't stand the sight of blood, gore, bullet wounds and carnage. It reminds me of living in Plymouth!

See, you talk geek and everyone goes off topic...

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Luckypants

Or you get sent to be a field medic, recovering casualties under fire. This is what 'conscientious objectors' did in both World Wars.

And there's the diffference between a conscientious objector and a coward.

[Jayneflakes]

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

And there's the diffference between a conscientious objector and a coward.

Hmm...

Mind you, is there really that much difference between cowardice and not wanting to be blown up, shot in half, sprayed with mustard gas, Blinded by shrapnel, caught in barbed wire, evaporated by nuclear inferno or made to spray the contents of the bad guy opposite, across the locality?

I find war absolutely revolting, the process of a bullet entering someone, rupturing organs, ripping holes in flesh and spraying blood into lungs to me is so horrifying I had little choice but declare myself to be a pacifist while I was still a child. My Dad was serving in BAOR at the time, he was so disappointed in me I think!

The thing I remember most from his army days is the big packet he carried with him. "What is that Dad?" I asked in all innocence. "Oh that, it is my bullet wound bandage for when some big scary Russian guy tries to blow great big holes in Daddy, with an AK47."

Laugh, I nearly cried!

I'd sign up and fight

[yorkie_chris]

I like the quote:

"those who would give up liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

If there's nothing in the world worth risking your life for then whats worth living for?

Pacifism, the avoidance of warfare at any cost makes you pretty much a sheep... what would you do if confronted by a violent situation? Sure don't look for a fight, but that's different to not doing what's right when the need presents itself.

[tinpants]

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

I like the quote:

"those who would give up liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

If there's nothing in the world worth risking your life for then whats worth living for?

Pacifism, the avoidance of warfare at any cost makes you pretty much a sheep... what would you do if confronted by a violent situation? Sure don't look for a fight, but that's different to not doing what's right when the need presents itself.

That is one of the best posts I've read on here for a very long time.


Chris, search me out at the AR. I'll buy you a beer.

Originally Posted by timwilky

Never again will we be in a position to say "Over the top chaps" and expect blinding obedience. Let generals lead from the front. If the plan is that good they should be prepared to share the risk

If only they would eh? In my rarely humble opinion it should be written into law that the children of any leader who declares war are to lead the charge on each and every offensive, first in and last out. It's become all too easy to throw away other people's children of late. How many cabinet ministers (even Junior ministers) had children serving in the forces when they declared war on Iraq? None. Not one. How many serving MPs died fighting in WWI? Twenty two. How many children of serving MPs died in WW1? Eighty five. That's a difference not in society but in a strength of conviction - fighting because the cause is just or because it's the only remaining choice. Not thowing away other peoples children as mere numbers on a spread sheet.

"If any question why we died, tell them, 'because our fathers lied'" - to quote Kipling

Originally Posted by Jayneflakes

Hmm...

Mind you, is there really that much difference between cowardice and not wanting to be blown up, shot in half, sprayed with mustard gas, Blinded by shrapnel, caught in barbed wire, evaporated by nuclear inferno or made to spray the contents of the bad guy opposite, across the locality?

I find war absolutely revolting, the process of a bullet entering someone, rupturing organs, ripping holes in flesh and spraying blood into lungs to me is so horrifying I had little choice but declare myself to be a pacifist while I was still a child. My Dad was serving in BAOR at the time, he was so disappointed in me I think!

The thing I remember most from his army days is the big packet he carried with him. "What is that Dad?" I asked in all innocence. "Oh that, it is my bullet wound bandage for when some big scary Russian guy tries to blow great big holes in Daddy, with an AK47."

Laugh, I nearly cried!

Yay, thank you Perfect description of war. It's not hollywood, it's not "fighting and dying for your country with honour", it's lying in a desert, bleeding to death in screaming agony with half your intestines hanging out. If you don't die immediately of shock and if it doesn't take your brain or heart out then it tends to take quite a while to die. Oh sure, you're dead alright, but you're going to take a while doing it and it sure as hell is going to hurt. My paternal grandfather fought in WW2, he never talked about it. Ever. Not even to his own son apparently, the one thing he said to his three grandsons (he didn't figure it was even possible for his granddaughter to do anything other than crochet & flower arranging, old people eh?) was "never sign up". My maternal grandfather did Korea and several tours round the middle east and said the same thing. He also said something about "the only good arab is a dead arab" but old people eh? We kinda ignored grandad's rantings at that point.

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

I like the quote:

"those who would give up liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

If there's nothing in the world worth risking your life for then whats worth living for?

Pacifism, the avoidance of warfare at any cost makes you pretty much a sheep... what would you do if confronted by a violent situation? Sure don't look for a fight, but that's different to not doing what's right when the need presents itself.

I love the Franklin quote and have probably used it myself in many threads Although I tend to use it in anti-Daily Express rants

In defence of pacifism as an ideal I'd say that you're looking at a short term viewpoint. Look at Indian independence and South African democracy - both are fights that were ideologically pacifist. Note that I'm not claiming that the "winning" sides were entirely non-violent by any means but their ideology was peaceful protest. Hell, even WW2 can be significantly blamed upon the military defeat of the German/Austro-Hungarian empires in WW1 - Germany was arguably made a victim of "victor's justice" in WW1 such that it gave the opportunity for Hitler to play upon this sense of injustice and rise to power and subsequently initiate WW2. A pacifist approach may have been a negotiated settlement of WW1 rather than miltary domination and (perceived in Germany) humiliation, thus potentially saving millions of lives in WW2.

I'll confess, I'm not wholy aligned to a pacifist ideology, although for the purposes of this forum I'll happily call myself a "tree hugging hippy"