9/11 what really happened?

Originally Posted by akbarhussain

Lol @ answering my own point - so you think it is acceptable to invade a country because they wouldn't trade with you, and then dress it up as National security?

No I dont. While I dont believe the conspiracys over 9/11 that doesnt equate to agreeing with the Bush administrations policies. If the UN had sanctioned the invasion then I think it would be different. For example the involvement in Bosnia being a UN sanctioned action to try and prevent further genocide was warranted. Late though it was.

Yes, you arecorrect in saying that the US has always done what it wanted to. But previously, they weren't as likely to openly invade a country, rather get some locals to do it for them.

What you are seeing in Iraq is the testing of their new doctrine....... and they will use it again.

Now Im not so sure on this. American opinion is very definitely turning against this policy. The fact they are talking withdrawal at this stage and leaving the country in a mess harks back to the Vietnam withdrawal. I see it as someone wise enough in the WH pointing out to stay will mean Iraq will be the next Vietnam.

The cost to the Americans was I believe negated on the revenues they thought they would incur on the rebuilding of the country. Now theyre realising that wont be forthcoming theyre starting to see the dire straights theyre in.

I dont see Iran happening just yet. Give them time to fix their economy. Also no matter how much they posture, Venezuela will be a bigger problem than Iran. The change of government is a bigger threat to their oil supplies than Iran is.

Originally Posted by lynw

For example the involvement in Bosnia being a UN sanctioned action to try and prevent further genocide was warranted. Late though it was.

Oh yeah, the Bosnian war where the US flew the evil, west threatening arabs (hezbollah and al-qaeda operatives) over to conjure up some of there freedom fighting (or was that terrorism, I always forget) against the Serbs.

Originally Posted by lynw

Now Im not so sure on this. American opinion is very definitely turning against this policy. The fact they are talking withdrawal at this stage and leaving the country in a mess harks back to the Vietnam withdrawal. I see it as someone wise enough in the WH pointing out to stay will mean Iraq will be the next Vietnam.

The cost to the Americans was I believe negated on the revenues they thought they would incur on the rebuilding of the country. Now theyre realising that wont be forthcoming theyre starting to see the dire straights theyre in.

TBH, I don't think the US ever saw Iraq as a quick financial gain, so to speak of it in that frame I beleive is incorrect.

Originally Posted by lynw

I dont see Iran happening just yet. Give them time to fix their economy. Also no matter how much they posture, Venezuela will be a bigger problem than Iran. The change of government is a bigger threat to their oil supplies than Iran is.

Again, I don't think the lies over Irans WMD are being maintained to secure oil supplies in the short term. More of a long term balance of power to fight the long term enemy. WOnder how long it will be until China is branded the new evil empire (back to attacking communism I spose)

Be inetersting to see what approach they take with Venezuela though - back to the good ol days!

Originally Posted by akbarhussain

Oh yeah, the Bosnian war where the US flew the evil, west threatening arabs (hezbollah and al-qaeda operatives) over to conjure up some of there freedom fighting (or was that terrorism, I always forget) against the Serbs.

Well if you want more complications Hezbollah, Al qaeda, Taleban were predominantly trained, funded and armed by the CIA when Russia was the "evil" communists.

But from my understanding it was a UN backed sanction to prevent further genocide which was being carried out. Regardless of who they sent, they needed to go in and stop it. But if you look at the basis of the troops stationed there, it was predominantly UN forces.

TBH, I don't think the US ever saw Iraq as a quick financial gain, so to speak of it in that frame I beleive is incorrect.

Looking back at the speed [or lack of it] they took to go into Bosnia to protect the muslim population, the fact they have ignored attrocities in a lot of countries as bad as those they are fighting to rid Iraq of and you can see an overwhelming connection. Quite simply, Bosnia, Zimbabwe etc have no oil. Kuwait and Iraq do. Forgive me for seeing it as an economically based reason.

Again, I don't think the lies over Irans WMD are being maintained to secure oil supplies in the short term. More of a long term balance of power to fight the long term enemy. WOnder how long it will be until China is branded the new evil empire (back to attacking communism I spose)

Be inetersting to see what approach they take with Venezuela though - back to the good ol days!

See previous answer. Oil is an economic commodity and securing that would be a motive. However, you have to remember the Republicans would have a host of friends companies lined up, ready to line their pockets for restructuring work, paid for by the secured oil revenues.

Lining up said companies quite simply = republican campaign funding. Or am I being far too cynical now?

[Balky001]

Originally Posted by lynw

Or am I being far too cynical now?

Now?? Only joking Lynw, we all love a great conspiracy story especially if you can throw a few facts in. Personally, I don't believe the primary aim of the war was over oil supplies/contracts but knowing they were going to war, I'm sure a few US/Euro entrepreneurs (or maybe mercenary capitalist may be a better term) would have seen big payouts emerging.

I don't think the situation would have been any better if sanctiuoned by the UN. Didn't that have more to do with post-war contracts anyway?

Well if you want more complications Hezbollah, Al qaeda, Taleban were predominantly trained, funded and armed by the CIA when Russia was the "evil" communists.

That was precisely my point..... Serbia being the closest event in time where the US have used these people. Less than 5 years later, they have yet again being turned into the 'un-people'.

But no I don't think you are being too cynical.

I agree with your point about no oil in Africa/Serbia etc..... but my point is, I don't think the US sees thes crusades as a short term 'lets secure the oil now before it is too late'; but more of longer term world order issue. After all, there is not a huge amount of oil in Afghanistan, but is very strategically placed for the emerging oil field of central asia.

The point you made earlier with regard to the US economy not currently being in a helathy enough state to go immidiatley onto their next target of Iran; IMHO, the weaker the US economy is right now, the more important Iran is to them. Again, I don't see this as a 'get the oil now' crusade - well, partially, but again IMHO, the fact that the Iranians are threatening to use the Euro as their trade currency rather than the USD.

Akbar, have you ever been to the US?

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Nope I'm not locking it.

I've learnt alot from reading this thread. Stuff I didnt know and wasnt aware of. Personally to me its not a subject I wish to discuss. But I can see that for some forum users its a subject they find interesting and I dont see why an adult discussion and debate can't continue to be had on this subject.

I would prefer it if it stayed on topic though.

Thanks Fizz for your comments, its nice to know others who have read this have actually encountered interesting things as opposed to just page after page of stuff they may have read/heard 100times before.

thank you also for not locking it and seeing where my post to jelly was comming from.
Mod of the week award to you i think

Originally Posted by akbarhussain

I guess i'm just not as mature as Lynw and Spidey.

hey! as anyone who's ever met me will vouch, i'm very far from mature
However, out of respect for this great website i try to make sure what i post is concise and succinct and not personaly offensive. I said i try. Sometimes i fail but i do read my posts over a few times and sometimes i'll end up editing what was almost an A4 page down to a few lines or paragraphs.

As for Iran & Venuzela.... they have both threathened to join forces and sell their oil in future in Euros. Their is nothing forcing them to trade in USD ($) and if they did start to trade in Euros that in itself would help to destabalise the USD.

I think that has been the biggest threat to america yet. No one can really fight a tradtitional battle (men/guns/tanks/) against them and win, a guerilla battle maybe.

But threaten them economicaly and they will hold off. Well at least until they put in a puppet govt of their choosing anyway

Originally Posted by DanDare

Akbar, have you ever been to the US?

Nope sir. Why do you ask?

Originally Posted by akbarhussain

Nope sir. Why do you ask?

Forgive me, I'm trying to ascertain your angle in this discussion/ thread.
You appear to anti America or Anti American government or anti Bush.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

As for Iran & Venuzela.... they have both threathened to join forces and sell their oil in future in Euros. Their is nothing forcing them to trade in USD ($) and if they did start to trade in Euros that in itself would help to destabalise the USD.

So I wonder why this story isn't given as much air/page time in the media as the Iran WMD stories....... actually nope, I don't wonder why at all.

And if I remember rightly, weren't the contracts which the French had with Iraq to buy thier oil dealing in Euros too? Hmmmm, perish the thought.