The God Delusion

Originally Posted by ThEGr33k

Erm i think you would proabably find these thousands of millions of people you refer to, are the same thousands of people gullible enough/brainwashed to believe what a 2000 (however old their books are) year old fairly tail tells them.

Disagree. Like the religious can feel smug in the knowledge they're going to heaven, climate change, or rather doing your bit to help avoid it, it's the atheists way of feeling smug and superior over others.

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

I'm entirely sure about that. Atheism is a non-belief in god; a stance that god does not exist.

Yes that's fine - until you go around 'preaching' that non existence, at which point you're putting forward a theological argument in the same way religions do.

I agree athiesm in it's self isn't a 'religious' belief system, but that doesn't mean that people wont use it in a religious manner.

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

You, I and even the leaders in climate change research have no real understanding as to what influence man has on environment but we don't seek a theologist to give us the answers; we seek scientific evidence, hard fact. Faith is belief that is not based on proof; whilst the climate crisis believers may make assumptions, there is underlying science Or ‘proof’ it is based on. There’s no element of faith in science whatsoever.

Ah but that's my point, there is no proof one way or the other. It's bad enough that individual scientists push theories as hard fact, but the general public are doing the same. I don't honestly see in this case, how you could call what people have in these scientists anything other than faith.

Originally Posted by Welsh_Wizard

Ceri JC - Can I ask, what is it you believe in?

Is it something you have always believed in, was it brought to you by your parents or is it something you've developed yourself?

Hope that isn't too intrusive - just curious.

ta'

I don't mind discussing it down the pub, but I'd rather not discuss it online. I don't derive much pleasure from debating for/against the existence of God, etc.- I got bored of that circular argument by the time I left my teens. When you ask why I believe, you might as well ask why I like the colour black, or why I prefer fonts with serifs. I just do.

No worries mate, i see your point entirely. Threads like this do tend to have a habit of being completely pointless as I'll never understand your belief just like you'll always have faith in your beliefs.

It'll certainly make for an interesting conversation tho' over a pint of 'bow so I'll await the day

Originally Posted by Mogs

Why is it the case that people who have no belief in God feel it important to prove that individuals that do are in the wrong? Is it seated in a deep jealosy and the only way that they can feel good about themselves is to attempt to destroy the faith that others have.

Originally Posted by Mogs

There’s many an argument against even ‘moderate religion’ (which I find most amusing). I personally have difficulty accepting others belief in religion for I feel that by accepting the belief of god you’ve made no effort to understand human life whatsoever. It’s a cowardly outlook that inhibits open-mindedness, reason, tolerance and acceptance. For what I would describe as active atheists; atheists with an active pursuit of why, what and how; the idea that religion can have an influence on society is terrifying. People often talk about blind faith, but I question what other kind of faith is there?

If I announced that I believe Santa Claus really does exist, as well as his reindeer, elves and workshop I’d be branded a loony. But adults dismiss Santa Claus as soon as they grow up when they look at the evidence around them. Atheists wonder why religious believers can have such obscure beliefs based on nothing; we believe them to be loonies.

Moderate religion dismisses responsibility in to the hands of ‘god’, it puts preconceived ideas in to children’s heads and tells them not to ask questions, making religion acceptable follows through to supporting acts of terror by making religion commonplace.
Religion is the cause of division in society, let us stop talking about the loyalist/nationalist conflict in NI, don’t disguise the religion at the heart of it, and let us stop talking about the Palestine conflict like we don’t know religion is at the heart of it. Religion causes massive anguish and distress worldwide and prevents humans developing a real understanding of what we are, and what we have to offer.

If I stood for parliament announcing my belief in Santa I would be marked a loon, told maybe compassionately (although I imagine mockingly) that he doesn’t exist and that I consider the evidence before trying to impose my beliefs on a nation. We’re just asking the same of you.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Disagree. Like the religious can feel smug in the knowledge they're going to heaven, climate change, or rather doing your bit to help avoid it, it's the atheists way of feeling smug and superior over others.

So yes that shows what i always thought, religious people are enclined towards selfishness. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Yes that's fine - until you go around 'preaching' that non existence, at which point you're putting forward a theological argument in the same way religions do.

I agree athiesm in it's self isn't a 'religious' belief system, but that doesn't mean that people wont use it in a religious manner.

I think aethiests try to show people they dont need a God to live their life. It isnt that we are promoting anything really.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Ah but that's my point, there is no proof one way or the other. It's bad enough that individual scientists push theories as hard fact, but the general public are doing the same. I don't honestly see in this case, how you could call what people have in these scientists anything other than faith.

Well that is a little silly imo, Scientists do push theories but they call them what they are, theories.

You see with a lot of things in science there is cause and effect. For example; I cant watch the water you drink going through your body but the theory is that the water you Pi$$ out is the water you drink. Without me doing tests i couldnt prove it, even if i do tests people might not believe. So it remains a theory.

People talk about their god being real, what proof is there none. Where did the idea come from? A book wrote many years in the past. How have most major religions coma about? Id say for control, Christianity DEFFO is. Roman empire falling apart... "hmm this Jesus fella had an interesting idea we can use, lets use him as a role model, make people fear us because we have gods ear."

Best thing is that people do feel better fearing things hence the news being all about how bad the world is, so naturally people look to fear god hence people beleieve.

But if people feel better believeing then fine. I feel better living life by my own rules and the governments laws... sigh.

Im not trying to change people's beliefs, im just trying to show you how i and i guess a lot of people see religion.

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

Any incentive to?

Nope again.

Atheists no doubt claim that Christians try to ram their beliefs down their throats; I equally get fed up with atheists trying to persuade me that I'm wrong. I'm very happy with the Church of England, very happy to accept the virgin birth, and the resurrection. Scoff all you like, I don't care in the least. Not long back Rob, you wrote that all religious writings were rubbish. You're entitled to your views. I'm entitled to mine, and I happen to like the Christian story. Dawkins is entitled to his views too. I can't be arsed to read it, I've gone beyond the stage of needing to prove everything. As we're so near Christmas, I prefer the writings in the Book of Isaiah, 750 years before Christ was born, which predicted the event so well.

I don't claim to follow all Christian teachings, I fail all the time, and I can be as selective as the next person. I don't believe in creationism, for example - the account in Genesis is allegorical. I consider that there are only very few fundamental truths about being Christian, the two above are perhaps the most important.

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

There’s many an argument against even ‘moderate religion’ (which I find most amusing). I personally have difficulty accepting others belief in religion for I feel that by accepting the belief of god you’ve made no effort to understand human life whatsoever. It’s a cowardly outlook that inhibits open-mindedness, reason, tolerance and acceptance. For what I would describe as active atheists; atheists with an active pursuit of why, what and how; the idea that religion can have an influence on society is terrifying. People often talk about blind faith, but I question what other kind of faith is there?

If I announced that I believe Santa Claus really does exist, as well as his reindeer, elves and workshop I’d be branded a loony. But adults dismiss Santa Claus as soon as they grow up when they look at the evidence around them. Atheists wonder why religious believers can have such obscure beliefs based on nothing; we believe them to be loonies.

Moderate religion dismisses responsibility in to the hands of ‘god’, it puts preconceived ideas in to children’s heads and tells them not to ask questions, making religion acceptable follows through to supporting acts of terror by making religion commonplace.
Religion is the cause of division in society, let us stop talking about the loyalist/nationalist conflict in NI, don’t disguise the religion at the heart of it, and let us stop talking about the Palestine conflict like we don’t know religion is at the heart of it. Religion causes massive anguish and distress worldwide and prevents humans developing a real understanding of what we are, and what we have to offer.

If I stood for parliament announcing my belief in Santa I would be marked a loon, told maybe compassionately (although I imagine mockingly) that he doesn’t exist and that I consider the evidence before trying to impose my beliefs on a nation. We’re just asking the same of you.

Indeed thats exactly what i think. Look at the fear of muslims at the moment. People who dont agree are wrong and should be killed! Nice.... This is because when the religion was formed they wanted no one around who could undermine the power the leaders had. What better way?

Originally Posted by Ed

Nope again.

Atheists no doubt claim that Christians try to ram their beliefs down their throats; I equally get fed up with atheists trying to persuade me that I'm wrong. I'm very happy with the Church of England, very happy to accept the virgin birth, and the resurrection. Scoff all you like, I don't care in the least. Not long back Rob, you wrote that all religious writings were rubbish. You're entitled to your views. I'm entitled to mine, and I happen to like the Christian story. Dawkins is entitled to his views too. I can't be arsed to read it, I've gone beyond the stage of needing to prove everything. As we're so near Christmas, I prefer the writings in the Book of Isaiah, 750 years before Christ was born, which predicted the event so well.

I don't claim to follow all Christian teachings, I fail all the time, and I can be as selective as the next person. I don't believe in creationism, for example - the account in Genesis is allegorical. I consider that there are only very few fundamental truths about being Christian, the two above are perhaps the most important.

tbh i think a true aethiest doesnt dispute the story or the good standards it spells out. Its just the existance of an almighty being. If you like the guidance it gives you then all the better, they are generally good standards.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Yes that's fine - until you go around 'preaching' that non existence, at which point you're putting forward a theological argument in the same way religions do.

I agree athiesm in it's self isn't a 'religious' belief system, but that doesn't mean that people wont use it in a religious manner.

No, theology is as far removed from atheism as it could ever get, theology is based on the will of god; atheism is dismissing this entirely. I can’t even begin to understand why you think atheism is a theological argument? Theology is an answer based on nothing, atheism is a question based on fact.

Atheists do not preach in any manner. To preach would be to put already formed ideas in to your head which opposes atheism which encourages asking the questions. Atheism doesn’t put forward any arguments that are not proven (where as religion has a whole book of them you may be familiar with ) and seeks rationality.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Ah but that's my point, there is no proof one way or the other. It's bad enough that individual scientists push theories as hard fact, but the general public are doing the same. I don't honestly see in this case, how you could call what people have in these scientists anything other than faith.

No, you had the answer there in your post. Scientists post their theories as…theories. The answer to climate control is being sought after by science; by fact; by proof. Faith is belief without proof. This is what makes climate change different from religion.

[arc123]

Why is it the case that people who have no belief in God feel it important to prove that individuals that do are in the wrong? Is it seated in a deep jealosy and the only way that they can feel good about themselves is to attempt to destroy the faith that others have.

Nice stereotyping I suppose all religions need to feel persecuted don't they