Gaza and Israel

[MisterTommyH]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

My middle east history isn't brilliant... The fact that the two respective governments haven't been able to work out some trade routes since is I am sure the fault of both of them, however just because the Israelis have got their act together better than just about every other country around them shouldn't be making them the bad guys here.

Wow!

All trade in and out of Gaza is controlled via Israeli checkpoints, and can be closed at their choosing. No building materials are permitted to be imported (at least in recent years). I can't remember where I got this next bit, but I'm sure I've heard about there being a calculation of how many palestinians there were in Gaza multiplied by the required daily calorific intake and the resultant being the amount of food that was allowed to pass the check points.

A few years ago an independent NGO was reporting how the number of pampers being allowed in was restricted

And remember this isn't two different governments in two countries - there is no Palestinian state. This is essentially us, ring fencing Wales, blockading the ports and carefully calculating what gets past Offa's dyke. Except for the fact that it's the size of one city, with four times the people.

Linky thing just to indicate it's not simply a case of not having established trade routes

Originally Posted by Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen

"The so-called 'easing' of the Gaza blockade does not change the fact that there’s still a cruel and illegal blockade collectively punishing the entire civilian population. The only real easing has been the easing of pressure on the Israeli authorities to end this cruel and illegal practice."

Whether right or wrong, and I feel that my own opinion is unimportant here, Israel will eventually 'win' the Gaza argument because they have the infrastructure and money from America. They have so much American support that no one will be able to stop them, and yes the Palestine residents do have Facebook, but Israel has the backing of most of the Western media.

[dizzyblonde]

Originally Posted by Mrs DJ Fridge

Whether right or wrong, and I feel that my own opinion is unimportant here, Israel will eventually 'win' the Gaza argument because they have the infrastructure and money from America. They have so much American support that no one will be able to stop them, and yes the Palestine residents do have Facebook, but Israel has the backing of most of the Western media.

This is quite the horrible reality. I read today that a lot of British MPs get donations from Israel. Hold on, I shall find the link.

[dizzyblonde]

...and when countries 'gift' each other donations, there's always strings attached
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...el4-dispatches

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by MisterTommyH

Wow!

All trade in and out of Gaza is controlled via Israeli checkpoints, and can be closed at their choosing........ etc

Given the open hostility Hamas has towards Israel are you suggesting they should just have an open border?

I'm not trying to take sides here but whether or not we agree with what went on back in the 40's, 50's or even 60's it happened and nothing will undo that. Yes Israel has become the force it is now because it has enjoyed Western support, however they have also been extremely organized and displayed a unity not evident anywhere else in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them. Hamas on the other hand refuse to recognize Israel and want them out (like that is ever going to happen).

If Wales kept bombing England instead of just sending us speeding tickets I'm pretty sure we'd blockade their border to!

Originally Posted by Luckypants

How can one people who suffered such terrible persecution inflict the same persecution on another?

That is actually the easiest part to explain. Simple human nature, sadly. In the same way that many bullied kids become bullys themselves and many abusers were once abused themselves, a nation that feels historically ill treated and surrounded by enemies is going to feel the need to lash out.

[Bibio]

if i'm not mistaken Israel also control the fresh water supply and utilities.

[MisterTommyH]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Given the open hostility Hamas has towards Israel are you suggesting they should just have an open border?

I'm not trying to take sides here but whether or not we agree with what went on back in the 40's, 50's or even 60's it happened and nothing will undo that. Yes Israel has become the force it is now because it has enjoyed Western support, however they have also been extremely organized and displayed a unity not evident anywhere else in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want the Gaza strip, they just want Hamas to stop attacking them. Hamas on the other hand refuse to recognize Israel and want them out (like that is ever going to happen).

If Wales kept bombing England instead of just sending us speeding tickets I'm pretty sure we'd blockade their border to!

I'm just saying it's Chicken and Egg. Surely it's understandable that 1.5m people pushed into such a small place might support the less savoury elements of their society pushing back against their oppressors (and it's by no mean's the majority of those dying who are fighting back).

Also, with regard to Israel not wanting the Gaza strip.... Is that only because it's the last area left? The areas referred to as Israeli Settlements are outside the lands originally granted and within areas originally given to Palestine. In the 40s, 50s, 60s etc was it said that I'm sure that Israel won't want any more that they've already been granted (it's a rhetorical question... I don't know).

I honestly try to remain neutral in these things, but with this one I have to admit that I struggle. There are so obviously faults on both sides, but as had already been said, this is far from a war of equals.

To change the analogy... during Northern Ireland - I'm sure there were oppressions, but I don't recall basic human necessities being stopped. And that didn't end by any kind of mass offensive. It took diplomacy and concessions on both sides.

Originally Posted by dizzyblonde

Occupations leave refugees that have to set up home elsewhere. A lot of Brits scream and shout about refugees coming here, of any sort. If Britain didn't help create them in the first place by sticking their noses in, they wouldn't be displaced. Families get strewn around the globe, and they feel they never belong. Snubbed through no fault of their own.
It's a subject I've taken great interest in, in recent years. It's certainly made me feel particularly strongly about Palestinians.

Without intervention the whole of Cyprus would likely be Turkish by now.

And probably none of it would have been Turkish if there hadn't been a (Greek-cypriot) military coup in the first place.

As for Israel/Palestine. The partition line's placing is largely irrelevant since it never happened, they all kicked off and took what they could get before the partition could be implemented.

[Red Herring]

Watching BBC 2 at the moment, Children of Syria. It's no wonder things never get resolved there when you have a nine year old child saying "it's better to start a revolution and die than to live a bad life under the regime..." whilst sitting proudly next to his armed teenage (just) brother. They haven't got a chance.