I saw a biker knocked down last night...

Originally Posted by lynw

which is extremely bad on the part of the driver given there are usually pedestrians using it to cross, cyclists and taxis [and in London there are a fair few of them] and a lot of couriers on bikes still use it as there are no bus lane cameras [yet].

The other thing I would say is if this guy had got as far down the A13 as the McDonalds he would have to be EXTREMELY brain dead to be completely unaware of the constant stream of taxis, buses, bikes and cyclists at that time of night in the bus lane next to him.

And it really is irrelevant whether you should be in the bus lane or not. The fact is the aprilia guy was there and the driver made the manouever without ensuring it was safe to do so. One mirror check and it wouldnt of happened. Thats the principle I won my case in October on as well.

....but it is relevant he was in a part of the road that he was not legally entitled to be.....can you not see that? If you take additional chances expect to pay for it sooner or later....as if biking wasnt dangerous enough

Originally Posted by TC3

....but it is relevant he was in a part of the road that he was not legally entitled to be.....can you not see that? If you take additional chances expect to pay for it sooner or later....as if biking wasnt dangerous enough

No its not relevant. And no I cant see it being so.

1. Highway code says you make a manouver ONLY WHEN its safe to do so.
2. To check its safe you use mirrors, or in case of bikes a life saver too.
3. If its clear and safe to do the manouver then you do it, if its not you wait til it is safe to do so.

with me so far?

The onus is on the person making the manouver to make sure its safe. To say fault lies in the legality of the other person is mad.

Is it illegal for pedestrians to be on the road if theyre crossing it? What about the cyclists, buses and taxis that are legally allowed to use the lane at that time?

Hypothetically, if he took a cyclist out as well as the Aprilia at the same time are you seriously saying to me that it would be the Aprilias partly to blame for being there when he shouldnt [50/50 for him] but driver entirely to blame for the cyclist?

The point Im making that you cant see is legality is not relevant here which my hypothetical situation highlights the daftness of trying to make it so.

Any fault on the Aprilia riders part is entirely down to him not anticipating the muppets who drive down that road and not being slow enough to stop or observe what drivers are doing. Not down to the legality of him being there.

[northwind]

How fast was the bike moving at the time, is the critical question for me. If he was shifting, then it's perfectly possible that the driver made sufficient observations to see any road user that could legally have been there and acted as a result. Not sayign that's the case, but it's possible.

Originally Posted by northwind

How fast was the bike moving at the time, is the critical question for me. If he was shifting, then it's perfectly possible that the driver made sufficient observations to see any road user that could legally have been there and acted as a result. Not sayign that's the case, but it's possible.

which is what I suspect is the case. Too many bikes cane it down that bus lane without any regard for the hazzards.

Incidentally this is the same road that a boy kicked a football across a pedestrian crossing while it was green for traffic. Just to give you an idea that its a seriously mental road with unexpected hazzards.

not sure on the legality of this one but to my mind if you weren't supposed to be in that lane then it will count against you in any legal action. On the A13 I NEVER use the bus lanes and either filter up the right hand side of the cars or be patient. I am an old fart and would rather be late than lying in the road waiting for the sirens to arrive

I know it was not a nice or particularly good piece of driving on the Jag's part and my thoughts go out to the rider but using a bus lane illegally is the same as undertaking in virtually all respects so if one chooses to do it at least be going slow enough and aware enough to avoid these car drivers ,that we have never met and don't know so why trust your safety to them, when they swerve without warning.

drving without due care and attention for the jag, and riding in bus lane for the bike... looks like 50:50 to me. although in most cases, the driver will certainly argue that he made observations before turning in and acusing the bike was speeding... but still looks 50:50 to me

Originally Posted by lynw

No its not relevant. And no I cant see it being so.

That is your opinion which is fine but it will be relevant for the car drivers insurance who will fight the case saying the biker was breaking the law. You do know how insurance works i hope

1. Highway code says you make a manouver ONLY WHEN its safe to do so.
2. To check its safe you use mirrors, or in case of bikes a life saver too.
3. If its clear and safe to do the manouver then you do it, if its not you wait til it is safe to do so.

yep u are correct. However it is much harder to prove the car driver did not adhere to the highway code as he will most certainly say the biker was speeding and it is so much easier to prove the biker should not have been in the bus lane

with me so far?

are you with me so far?

The onus is on the person making the manouver to make sure its safe. To say fault lies in the legality of the other person is mad.

it is just as much on the individual to make sure they are not breaking the law............................................... .....

Is it illegal for pedestrians to be on the road if theyre crossing it? What about the cyclists, buses and taxis that are legally allowed to use the lane at that time?

What sort of a question is that? What are you saying as it makes no sense to me

Hypothetically, if he took a cyclist out as well as the Aprilia at the same time are you seriously saying to me that it would be the Aprilias partly to blame for being there when he shouldnt [50/50 for him] but driver entirely to blame for the cyclist?

save the discussion for the situation that has occurred and not one you dream up

The point Im making that you cant see is legality is not relevant here which my hypothetical situation highlights the daftness of trying to make it so.

So wrong....at the end of the day it is the legality of the case that will tip the case in favour of car driver...

Any fault on the Aprilia riders part is entirely down to him not anticipating the muppets who drive down that road and not being slow enough to stop or observe what drivers are doing. Not down to the legality of him being there.

The fact that you are a biker is totally blinding you. to me the biker was also being a muppet in this case. It is easy to attack car drivers all the time but when the BIKER is illegaly placed on the road and is doing a manouvere that is putting himself even more at risk then you would have to de an idiot to say that the biker did not have a large part of the blame

I drive both a car and a bike. I like both. Being a biker obviously means i have higher regard for bikes than most car drivers and do my bit in moving aside to let bikes pass etc.

Insurance companies will use any legal angle to win a case and i can honestly say that the biker will lose out in this case.

Hope this isn't seen as a de-rail but just a bit of useful info'-

1 When filtering (legally or otherwise) it is wise to be aware of possible hazards ( a hazard may be defined as anything that contains an amount of actual or potential danger).

2 Also, ensure that your speed relevant to the traffic you are overtaking is not excessive (anything more than about 5-8 mph!).

3 You must also be aware of things that can reasonably be expected to occur (vehicles moving without signalling, pedestrians/vehicles emerging from between stationary or slow moving traffic).

4 And the most important one of all.....ALWAYS be able to stop within the distance you can SEE to be clear (taking into account the points raised above).

Sorry you had to witness this accident. My wishes for a speedy recovery go to the biker concened.

[quote=TC3]

Originally Posted by "Lynw"Hypothetically, if he took a cyclist out as well as the Aprilia at the same time are you seriously saying to me that it would be the Aprilias partly to blame for being there when he shouldnt [50/50 for him

but driver entirely to blame for the cyclist?

save the discussion for the situation that has occurred and not one you dream up

No. This is making my exact point which you clearly wont deal with. How can you say its the bikers fault cos he shouldnt be there but not a cyclists fault cos he had a right to be there?

Going back to a previous thread when everyone insisted people made mistakes on the road and shouldnt be penalised for them, what if the Aprilia rider made a mistake and assumed the WHOLE A13 was "legal" for bikes in bus lanes as opposed to just the part near Blackwall? Should he be penalised for a mistake?

And quit with the illegal thing. Unless you can quote me an arrestable offence you should realise that bus lanes are defined by the local council and are enforceable by FPNs. Its NOT ILLEGAL to be in one. Just likely to get you a FPN.

Oh and I won my case in October on the principle that the accident would not have happened had the driver complied with the Highway code. So Im talking from experience in dealing with insurance companies in such a situation [filtering in my case]. Though in my case I could prove I took every caution to avoid an accident and reason it was a slow speed drop was because I wasnt speeding.

Im not saying its not the bikers fault in anyway. If you reread my posts what Im saying is that its likely to be his fault for not anticipating and going too fast for the conditions of that road which is what will count insurance wise against him, as much as it would appear to be the drivers fault for making an unsafe manouver.

[quote=lynw]

Originally Posted by TC3

No. This is making my exact point which you clearly wont deal with. How can you say its the bikers fault cos he shouldnt be there but not a cyclists fault cos he had a right to be there?

I have to concur here, Lyn is absolutely right.

Although the bike may have been going too fast (but we don't know that) and was technically in breach of the local Road Traffic laws in using the Bus Lane, there is still nevertheless a very clear duty of care to be undertaken by any driver that has to cross it to turn into a side road.

Whether he was a cyclist, pedestrian, car or bike is neither here nor there, the same duty of care exists. Yes the insurance companies will almost definitely do a 50/50 but there again when don't they now?


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