How to stop Britain's degenerative moral decline?

Originally Posted by Kinvig

Are you advocating, taking off & nuking the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure, yeah?

****in' A...

Originally Posted by neio79

To be honest i have said it all before.

Yeah, I suspect we're going to go round in circles here

The UK the worst place in Europe for crime? You sure? I don't have figures so can't comment reliably but this smacks of a Daily Express headline to me.

Slave trade, here I agree with you, obviously recognize the dreadfulness of the whole thing, do everything to ensure it never happens again in any part of the world, and commerate the end in the same way we look back and give thanks for the end of other historical landmarks, but saying sorry would be kind of pointless and hollow. The two words I've made a point of making very careful use of in life are "promise" and "sorry". Those two words are to be used very carefully, using them at every opportunity demeans their use. I'm of Nordic stock myself, like you say, should I be apologising for my Viking ancestors raping & pillaging?

Death sentence. Two big problems, one is that the wrong people will be executed, personally I can never find it acceptable to say those occasional innocents executed would be "acceptable losses". The second problem is that it doesn't seem to work. Countries that have the death sentence have at the very least the same crime and in most cases a worse crime problem than we do.

I do like Ed's post, at the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, all this talk of preventing "the scum" from breeding sounds awfully like another figure in recent history. Mind you, he wanted to ensure only the blond haired blue eyed got to procreate, thanks to afore mentioned Nordic heritage I'd keep busy

[timwilky]

I think most kids, deep down are decent people. Often misguided by their peers.

I think back to my teens, I did not have time to get into any form of trouble, working full time in an apprenticeship, starting at 7.00 am, college on block release and 2 evenings nightschool if not in college, plus homework etc.

I have known many sh1ts who have grown up to be decent, hardworking and respectful. The important things to me are. If they are not academic, why force them into an education they do not want, instead provide more vocational training in the career paths they want.

Don't be quick to blame the parents. They are probably concerned about their childrens behavoir, asked for help and been refused.

Don't provide housing for single mums, by all means provide a hostel environment, where they can learn how to be parents, look after their babies etc. However do not make pregnancy a way of jumping onto benefits and housing bandwagon.

I have two grandchildren, my son has always provided for his daughter financially. My younger daughter had a son 9 months ago. The so called father refused to acknowledge any responsibility, the state had to resort to DNA testing to force him to pay his dues. so he packs in working as it is no longer worth it.

I am now a firm believer in workfare. If you are capable of working and want benefits, you work for the state. I guess under those circumstances many claimers would rather find themselves a proper job.

I know personally of one guy who refuses to work on the grounds that he need to take his grandson to/from school. What about the kids mother/father? why cannot he get a nightshift job if he really cannot work during the day etc.

Oh what a subject. So much opportunity for spleen venting

[northwind]

It's very easy to criticise. Not so easy to come up with a realistic response... Incidentally, "soft on crime" people, it's cheaper and more effective to give a prisoner a TV and keep them occupied than it is to deal with bored prisoners- prisons can run with fewer staff and less trouble. The link between prison treatment and behaviour is beyond dispute really. And that extends back into the real world, treat someone like a dog and you can't be too surprised when they bite. THe suggestion that "people won't want to go back" seems sensible but it's never been shown to work that way.

OTOH, criminals who don't want to go back to prison are often driven to worse offences. IE, if you get caught in a break-in, kill the witness. Higher stakes y'see. 3-strikes-and-you're-out was welcomed with open arms by most people who support stiffer prison punishment, but it's led to absolutely no reduction of reoffending and is strongly linked to escalating offences- shoplift once, shoplift twice, but once you realise the third offence gets you in big trouble, why not aim higher? Instead of being put off, they look for a higher reward to balance the risk.

Originally Posted by Pedrosa

Good point Sarah. Then maybe change policy to indicate that those who bring children in to the world must hold the responsibility to provide for them, not the system?

Maybe set a date which indicates anyone falling pregnant after tht date...it's tough sh+t...you were warned?

Was this a troll, or a genuine opinion? You can't punish the kids for the actions of their parents. They didn't ask to be born into a scumbag family, don't cut them off. We'll all pay the price for hate-filled deprived kids, it's bad enough already without giving them a reason.

On the local park near where i live there was an old man we called pete ( dont know his real name ) he used to walk around it all day picking up litter and talking to himself.
one day i was coming home at about 10 pm from town and he was sitting on a bench with about 12 young lads around him basically giving him greif and taking the Pi$$.
one of them had a bottle of what looke like water and kept flicking it at him,
so i walk up to them and tell them to do one, i get a barage of insults then a bar to my back.. im fall they run off...
pete tries to help me up.. and i sit next to him he shakes my hand and gets up and walks away saying nothing...

three nights later same thing except there is upwards of 20 of them including mouthy chavets they were all 16 +
the thing is this time i had 4 of my mates with me 2 just back from Afghan..
they start ... we end it... and walk pete home

iron bar lad couldnt use his arms for a month or two, he was your typical 20 year old hanging out with kids to look hard and big
most of them ran off but the scroats stayed and got a good hiding..

pete died weeks later of natural causes..

i say nuke em and start again
i HATE this forsaken country....

I think the real problem is poor parenting. We're now seeing a second and even third generation of dolescum, who grew up doing not a lot and will produce more kids just like them. Meanwhile, you and I bankroll them. This in itself is detestable, but the fact that they also cause most crime and make public spaces an upleasent place to be is utterly unacceptable. I think that before it gets to a Soylent Green sort of situation, particularly if the problem is compounded by serious overpopulation, there will be some sort of 'curable' mandatory sterilisation that is spread through the water mains/wherever and you will have to pass a parenting test to be given a treatment to allow you to have a kid. It'll obviously be controversial/unpopular decision, but things might get so bad that it becomes more appealing than the alternative.

I'm reading an interesting book at the moment, Lila: An enquiry into Morals (the sequel to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance). It makes (amongst others) the very interesting point that back in the 60s, people didn't seem able to differentiate between positive rebellion (IE the garnering of new, legitimate, constructive freedoms) and doing whatever the hell you like. All oppression and demands of society were viewed as "bad" and it seems that we're only now learning that some sort of social restraint/demands on our behaviour are a good thing. The fact that there are an awful lot of middle class liberals who live in their nice suburban enclaves and never encounter these people and think the claims about them are exaggerated doesn't help matters.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to make my point... That all said, things are getting better generally. Things always do. I remember a good quote (well, good paraphrase ), "Society is in moral decline, our young people have no respect for their elders or the state." That was from 1835, or thereabouts. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't seperate bad behaviour from social change and advancement, though. Regardless of your feelings on the latter, it's fairly plain to see that kids smashing windows and keying cars is never going to improve society. Things like homosexuals being allowed civil partnerships, or to adopt, etc. might. Personally, I see no need for any sort of connection between the two types of "freedom".

Just one or two snippets I have gathered.

The number of repeat offenders in Her Majesty's Hotels/Prisons is alarmingly high.

Some reason for that is the stigma from employers regarding those with a record. Why not offer employers tax benefits or a contribution to half of the ex con's wage? surely cheaper than them doing more time?

Drug use in HM Hotels is ridiculously high? How can this be tolerated?

Aaprt from employer stigma many people come out of jail with the only real alternative and good earner being the crime they were originally banged up for?

Many re offend purposefully to get caught again? Crazy? Well the option to many with no real purpose in life of a bed every night and 3 meals is a good one.

Should there not be a genuine vocational training programme in jails? With performance related perks and recognised industry qualifications?

Why does it seem that when offences seem to take on ever more seriousness and frequency, the punishment equally seems diluted?

To assist I am simply adding comments to promote further discussion, I am not admitting to inserting any of my own beliefs here.

Interestingly I know someone who did time here in Spain. He tells me that there is no way he ever wants to risk going back in there again. Would that be a common thought of many offenders in the UK do you think?

Does the populace of the UK have the cojones to request that the entire legal and social services system be redrafted totally based on the glaring flaws that it contains and which in itself leads to so many blatant abuses?

Originally Posted by lylej

On the local park near where i live there was an old man we called pete ( dont know his real name ) he used to walk around it all day picking up litter and talking to himself.
one day i was coming home at about 10 pm from town and he was sitting on a bench with about 12 young lads around him basically giving him greif and taking the Pi$$.
one of them had a bottle of what looke like water and kept flicking it at him,
so i walk up to them and tell them to do one, i get a barage of insults then a bar to my back.. im fall they run off...
pete tries to help me up.. and i sit next to him he shakes my hand and gets up and walks away saying nothing...

three nights later same thing except there is upwards of 20 of them including mouthy chavets they were all 16 +
the thing is this time i had 4 of my mates with me 2 just back from Afghan..
they start ... we end it... and walk pete home

iron bar lad couldnt use his arms for a month or two, he was your typical 20 year old hanging out with kids to look hard and big
most of them ran off but the scroats stayed and got a good hiding..

pete died weeks later of natural causes..

i say nuke em and start again
i HATE this forsaken country....

way to go. hope they hurt after their beating.

[yorkie_chris]

More guns, shoot anything burberry on sight.

Put a bounty on sovereign rings and cheap gold chains, it would make society far nicer and be excellent sport too.

*sigh*

'Dolescum'.

'Beatings'

'middle class liberals who live in their nice suburban enclaves and never encounter these people and think the claims about them are exaggerated'

I dunno. The hang 'em and flog 'em brigade will never go away - but yet never learn from the past. These policies have been tried and tested - and failed. Failed abysmally.

Oh for more enlightened times.

I'm not going to say any more on this because people don't listen. They haven't listened for years, so why break the habit of a lifetime. Why admit that violence simply generates more violence, why admit that poor self-esteem is the root of most of these problems, why admit that it would be farbetterto tackle the causes rather than the end result, ah no - it's easier to label everyone as chav scroungers rather than to accept that generations of repression have led to a crisis and requires thinking outside the box, the cosy smug box that says that if we whip people hard enough they'll soon fall into line. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now. So much easier to blame everyone else.