Sarkozy speaking sense?

Originally Posted by Messie

Then again I have known of women who choose to wear the full covering (and the term for this form of dress varies from nation to nation, language to language and culture to culture) and indeed find it empowering to do so. They find it gives them freedom to be, say, act in their own way without any gender politics and stuff getting in the way.
I can also very clearly understand how and why a full facial covering (in fact for men as well as women) is a real hindrance to communication. As Maria said this is true for those who lip read, but it is also true in other ways where people read from gacial expressions the feelings and emotions of another human being.

Just like the internet. Does that make us all hypocrites then?

Originally Posted by metalangel

I read in a book once that hair is a 'fetish' for pretty much all people, hence why Muslims cover it and Jews shave it. *shrugs*

I see both sides of the story, but to be honest I support Sarko's stance on this.

Basically, if you want to live in our country, you live by our customs. You're free to do whatever you like in your own home and have your own places of worship, but out in public, our way.

If you think this is unfair, feel free to go back to your country of origin and live that way instead. And while you're there, note that WE respect YOUR customs enough to dress YOUR WAY when we're in YOUR country. Indeed, if we don't, quite often we get severely punished and attacked for breaking your rules!

No, I'm not in the BNP.

We are saying in our society we are accepting for all people regardless of religous views so why should we persecute them for wanting to dress this way in our society.

I dont see it any more scary than a biker in leathers with a tinted visor. There are a lot of groups out there that dress in different ways because of what they beleive in.

After all our views on this and have been largely manufactured by our own politics and media by association with religious fanatics.

In my view dress like this which are also cultural traditions should be saved.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Agree with the last stament there for sure. But why do you menation 1981 as a time reference? Bush/Blairs influence and the current agression againt the middle east has occured since 2001/2003. I just lost the connection between your 2 timelines.

My mistake, it was a typo. I meant to type January 1991, when the first Gulf War kicked off. I can remember the day clearly, I was flying out of Malta with 24 small bottles of Kinnie in hand luggage and got stopped at security. The next day my grandad, who I'd just been to see in hospital, died.

Originally Posted by metalangel

...........

Basically, if you want to live in our country, you live by our customs. You're free to do whatever you like in your own home and have your own places of worship, but out in public, our way.

If you think this is unfair, feel free to go back to your country of origin and live that way instead. And while you're there, note that WE respect YOUR customs enough to dress YOUR WAY when we're in YOUR country. Indeed, if we don't, quite often we get severely punished and attacked for breaking your rules!

...

I agree with this totally

[ophic]

Originally Posted by Demonz

We are saying in our society we are accepting for all people regardless of religous views so why should we persecute them for wanting to dress this way in our society.

We should not, currently. There is no requirement to integrate in this country.
The reason I feel the burkha is such an issue, is because the solution to differing cultural backgrounds is communication. If this doesn't happen, it becomes very "them & us" and neither side discovers that we're all pretty normal people underneath. The burkha is a major psychological barrier to this open communication. Should you ever have a conversation with someone wearing one, its extremely difficult to recognise them later on, and therefore impossible to develop any kind of one-to-one relationship. So if wearing a burkha makes it impossible to integrate, then its basically saying "**** you" to the rest of society. It says "we don't care about you, we don't like you, we don't want to talk to you".

In fact, any dress that promotes memberships of a particular group can be a problem. We have a natural unconcious tendency to dress like our peer group. This also means that we look at someone dressed differently to us and think "they're nothing like me". Doesn't matter if its biker leathers, religious dress or men wearing skirts, it makes people less approachable.

Of course, its easy to point out the problems. Solutions are more difficult. Sarkozy has used one method - its admirable that he's doing something, protecting the existing french culture, and is prepared to deal with the repercussions. But the UK is a different place and I don't think it would work here, as we're already too far down the road of non-integration.

The other obvious problem is the security aspect. The gov't and private companies put in all these security cameras and the burkha makes them completely useless. Even old school policing uses descriptions of the perp, and drawings and photos if available are distributed - and then there's the old identification line-up. All utterly ineffective. Imagine being mugged by someone wearing a burkha. Fortunately I've never heard of this actually happening... yet. When it does, there's gonna be all kinds of problems, which will further widen the divide. If the gov't outlaw it, can you imagine the backlash against people being arrested for wearing a burkha?

long rambling post... i'm still half asleep

Originally Posted by ophic

We should not, currently. There is no requirement to integrate in this country.
The reason I feel the burkha is such an issue, is because the solution to differing cultural backgrounds is communication. If this doesn't happen, it becomes very "them & us" and neither side discovers that we're all pretty normal people underneath. The burkha is a major psychological barrier to this open communication. Should you ever have a conversation with someone wearing one, its extremely difficult to recognise them later on, and therefore impossible to develop any kind of one-to-one relationship. So if wearing a burkha makes it impossible to integrate, then its basically saying "**** you" to the rest of society. It says "we don't care about you, we don't like you, we don't want to talk to you".

I hear what you are saying but communication can be done in many ways and some people (because of their culture) dont want a one-to-one relationship. One doesnt need to be seen to be heard and integration into a community isnt about seeing someones face. Afterall I only know a few faces on here but I still feel part of the community.

Originally Posted by ophic

Of course, its easy to point out the problems. Solutions are more difficult. Sarkozy has used one method - its admirable that he's doing something, protecting the existing french culture, and is prepared to deal with the repercussions. But the UK is a different place and I don't think it would work here, as we're already too far down the road of non-integration.

I dont feel sorry for the french, english or spanish about protecting their culture. They have all been doing this very well for 100s of years - and imposing it on many other cultures along the way. I feel his comments are just another political stunt to wind up the western views and keep himself in the tabloids. He is using it on a minority group that he knows will get support because of the perceptions associated with the dress code. We are all suckers.

Originally Posted by ophic

The other obvious problem is the security aspect. The gov't and private companies put in all these security cameras and the burkha makes them completely useless. Even old school policing uses descriptions of the perp, and drawings and photos if available are distributed - and then there's the old identification line-up. All utterly ineffective. Imagine being mugged by someone wearing a burkha. Fortunately I've never heard of this actually happening... yet. When it does, there's gonna be all kinds of problems, which will further widen the divide. If the gov't outlaw it, can you imagine the backlash against people being arrested for wearing a burkha?

That's actually quite funny. I can just imagine the gangsters deciding on what to wear. "Balaclava or burkha's today fellas..."

[ophic]

Originally Posted by Demonz

I hear what you are saying but communication can be done in many ways and some people (because of their culture) dont want a one-to-one relationship. One doesnt need to be seen to be heard and integration into a community isnt about seeing someones face. Afterall I only know a few faces on here but I still feel part of the community.

I don't really feel that an internet forum is a valid comparison. For all I know, burkha wearing women are all highly active forum posters, and it makes no difference whatsoever. The community that is at question here is the real one, out in the real world.

However some parallels can be drawn. Even in an online community, we are all identifiable by our forum names. We are also held responsible for what we post. Out there in real world land, its the face that is the primary feature of recognition. The burkha takes this away, makes the wearer anonymous and therefore also not responsible for their actions as they cannot be identified.

Originally Posted by Demonz

I dont feel sorry for the french, english or spanish about protecting their culture. They have all been doing this very well for 100s of years - and imposing it on many other cultures along the way. I feel his comments are just another political stunt to wind up the western views and keep himself in the tabloids. He is using it on a minority group that he knows will get support because of the perceptions associated with the dress code. We are all suckers.

All political decisions and comments can be viewed cynically. Only Sarkozy knows what truly motivates him.

Originally Posted by Demonz

That's actually quite funny. I can just imagine the gangsters deciding on what to wear. "Balaclava or burkha's today fellas..."

It's funny til someone actually does it.

[Paul the 6th]

Lol @ the idea of what appears to be a load of Islamic women in a bank when suddenly, in a thick romford accent one of them yells "everyone down on the f***ing floor, this is a robbery!"

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

"It will not be welcome on French soil," he said." We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity."

Of course, women's dignity will be aided by telling them what they can and can't choose to wear, right?

It's a tricky one, because the fact is a lot of those who wear the burqa (or similiar) do it because they've not been given any choice, but there are others that do choose to wear it. And fundamentally, while he's talking about women's rights, he's also talking about taking away those women's rights to dress how they wish.

The other problem is that for some of those who do impose/choose these dress codes, the alternative isn't going out unveiled- it's just not going out at all. So potentially, what you do here is you end up imposing an even worse restriction.

(myself, I think it's blatantly obvious that Sarkozy is a racist scumbag, and that he'd decided to wrap up an anti-islamic campaign in a pro-women's-rights wrapper, but I digress )