Starting / Idling Problems - K1 SVS - Re-Occurance of prob

[fizzwheel]

OK I need some help or just to confirm my thoughts.

Over the summer my SVS has been stood in my garage not being used. I've gradually been taking it apart to replace some things that were seized up.

I've fitted new choke cable, New throttle cables, New fork seals and replaced the oil. I've taken the gear lever off to unseize it. Its recently in the last week had a new chain and sprocket and a 2nd hand rear shock fitted and its been checked over by the mechnic in my local dealer to make sure I hadnt mucked anything up when I was working on it, he said it was fine and it passed its MOT last week.

The bike has been periodically started over the summer, each time once it had fresh fuel in it, it started fine. The bikes been stood since I got the GSXR at the end of march and hasnt been ridden on the road since. It was serviced a month or so before I put it away for the summer.

On Friday night I went to leave work ( Bike had started fine in the morning ) and it wouldnt start. Had dash lights but were dim, starter motor wouldnt turn. I got a friend to give me a lift home to pick up my spare battery and popped that in the bike and it started and I was able to ride it home. When I got it running it did smell of petrol quite strongly. I just assumed this was because I had been turning the bike over with the choke on but it hadnt started.

I put the flat battery on the optimate over night and left it to charge.

On Saturday morning, I swapped the battery in the bike for the battery off the optimate. bike starts fine. I then decide I will go for a ride. I ride about 60 miles in the dry and stop a couple of times, Each time the bike starts fine. I put the bike away on Saturday and didnt ride yesterday ( Sunday )

I get the SV out this morning. thumb the starter, click and all the dash lights go dim. Jolly good. I try again and manage to catch the bike and it starts. However it dies again and wont idle on the choke and stalls again. Try to start a few times each time the same the bike eventually catches but wont idle and eventually stalls. I have a look at the exhaust and its very white, with occasionally a blue tinge, then its goes quite blue... at this point I'm thinking not good. Oil Level was OK last time I checked the bike, which was a few days previously.

I pushed the bike back into the garage and rode the GSXR to work. The SV stank of petrol, from somewhere it was dripping onto the floor by the front wheel. I can see it running down the cylinder casing onto the floor. Also the ports on the can are very wet with petrol as well.

I had another look at the oil in the sight glass as I'm worried that the I've knackered the engine, I cant see the oil level at all, the sight glass is black as night.

I should point out that I havent seen any of these problems at all previously to friday night.

I think that.

1. Both my batteriers have gone flat over the summer and are f*cked and not holding any charge.

2. I could probably do with a new set of spark plugs.

3. I might have sh*t in the fuel tank from where the bikes been stood ( note I did remove and drain the tank as part of the rebuild process in the summer.

4. The lack of visability in the sight glass combined with the blue exhaust is concerning me. I'm wandering if I have run the bike with low oil and its f*cked the engine up. When the bike turns over and did run breifly this morning, it was not accompanied by any loud knocking, griding noises that people have mentioned before when their motor has let go. Also I havent experienced any loss of power when riding the few times I've ridden since I put it back on the road last week. In fact I've been pleasantly surprised by the riding experience after the GSXR.

5. I'm wandering if I havent seated the carbs properly, however like I said before friday it was running fine.

Is there anything else I need to check / be concerned about. I've tried to do a search but as usual it hasnt turned up anything useful.

Thoughts, suggestions or ridicule welcomed

Cheers

Fizz

[fizzwheel]

OK I've popped back home at lunchtime... I think I've found the cause of the problem.

It would seem that when I re-fitted the carbs or airbox that I've kinked one or more of the crank case breather hoses.

I popped the tank up and took the air filter out, to be greeted with a nice puddle well a small lake actually of oil / petrol all mixed up. Remove the airbox and started the bike again. Now it runs and idles. Exhaust is still a bit oily looking though and I covered my garage floor with the oil / petrol mix to. I've mopped this up now.

Most of the mank was coming out of the crank case breather hoses. I can now see the oil level in the sight glass again.

Before I attempt to ride the bike again. I'm thinking oil change and a new set of plugs. I'm also thinking about taking the carbs off again and cleaning them out.

[Viney]

Breather hoses can case the bike to run badly.

Oil sight glass should be silver (Metal plate thing behind the glass) and not black, so possibly over filed with oil? Drain a bit out and see what happens(Undo oil filter a bit, drain, then do back up)

Erm, batteries both totaly flat, will also casue the bike not to idle. If they go flat on the bike, then possibly rectifier (Haynes tells you how to check, but bike shluld be showing healty voltage at the battery.

Smell of fuel...check that you have pushed the fueal hose back on when putting the carbs back in, and check that they are re-seated 100%

You could have something like a split pipe, or the worse case scenario, a hole in your tank!!

Other than that, dunno

[fizzwheel]

Bike started fine this morning after being left overnight.

However the oil in the sight glass, had an nice froth on it. So out with the sump bolt and drained the oil out, except what came out wasnt strictly oil, instead of running out smoothly, it splashed out and the oil was very very thin and stank of petrol.

I've refilled it with new oil and the bike starts, runs and idles fine. However the exhaust is still blue, but not as blue as it was before. I can see the oil level in the sight glass now as well.

Theres no loud knocking or clunking coming from anywhere, and the top end of the bike doesnt sound rattly, its certainly no worse than it used to be.

Theres alot of petrol oil mix over the header pipe from the rear cylinder and the end can is oily inside.

So I'm know wandering if that the bottom end of the motor is OK, but because I rode the bike with petrol in the oil the oil didnt do its job properly as it was not viscous anymore and thats worn the piston rings which accounts for the blue oily exhaust smoke.

Alternatively is the oil in the exhaust just the residue in the exhaust headers and end can burning off.

Oh and I checked the crank case breather hoses they dont seem to be kinked and I can feel air being blown up them. Is that normal ?

Help !!!!

[northwind]

Hum. Fuel in oil isn't good news, it only really gets there one way, past the rings. But it could have been running through while it was sat, rather than going past on running...

But what Viney's said accounts for all the other stuff. I wouldn't worry about the bottom end- it's fairly unlikely to have caused a problem, and if it has, well, no point in worrying about it

[fizzwheel]

Righto I popped home at lunchtime and had another fiddle with it.

Left the airbox off and started the bike. Yippee no blue exhaust, its not burning oil anymore. Bike runs and idles fine.

I topped the oil up as it was bit low and everything seems OK.

I refitted the airbox and I think I have realised what I have done wrong.

Look down at the airbox sat on the bike. One of the holes that have the crankcase breather pipes attatched to them is blocked off with a rubber cap. Yet one of the pipes on the RHS doesnt have a rubber cap on it and theres nothing to attatch to it.

So I took the rubber cap off where I think its in the wrong place and popped it onto the RHS and re-connected the breather pipes so that they are both now attatched to the airbox.

So on the RHS looking down, the two protusions from the airbox are both capped off. On the LHS the two crankcase breather pipes are attatched.

Put the airfilter back in and bolted the tank down, bike still runs OK. I ran it for a few minutes and all seems well, no knocks and rattles. I then popped the air filter out and theres no oil / fuel in the airbox.

I dont really understand how the airbox connections work, but it looks like the crankcase breathers plug into some kind of filter or something designed to stop the oil blowing up into the airbox. I'm wandering if because one of these was blocked by the rubber cap that its caused pressure build up and hence the oil blow back.

I dont know why so much fuel has ended up in there though. Also I think my oil burning has been caused by the petrol and oil mixing together, which has thinned the oil and allowed it to blow back past the piston rings and vice versa.

If somebody could confirm my thoughts that would be really helpful.

Thanks

Fizz

[Biker Biggles]

I once had about a gallon of petrol find it's way into the crankcase on a GT550 while it was standing,and I assumed it drained through the carbs and found it's way down through the cylinders somehow.The problem was a sticking carb float that allowed fuel to overfill the carb and it had to go somewhere.

[northwind]

That oughtn't to happen to an SV though, since the tap's vacuum actuated.

I think you've got the breathers right- both crank breathers go into the box on the back left of the airbox, and the other hose on the front has a cap on. Don't kow what it's for Some are very short, some are very long, it's what you do with it that counts I think.

Your oil burning could have been purely oil backing up into the airbox then getting into the carbs. Not sure. But, it could be a shot ring both letting fuel through, and letting oil up. And that's as far as my knowledge of bad rings go- I think a compression test would be your next step but really here is where I bow out

[fizzwheel]

Thanks Northy. thats definately how I've got the crank breathers connected to the airbox now.

I think I'm going to change the oil again and make sure I've got all the manky contaiminated oil out. Then I'm going to take it for a short ride and then return home again and then pop the air filter out and see whats in the airbox.

I've only started it on the driveway as I didnt want to ride it until I was more confident I had got to the bottom of the problem. Once it was warm, the engine seemed to spin up OK, its definatly not knocking and rattling.

Guess time will tell.

[Sid Squid]

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

I dont really understand how the airbox connections work, but it looks like the crankcase breathers plug into some kind of filter or something designed to stop the oil blowing up into the airbox. I'm wandering if because one of these was blocked by the rubber cap that its caused pressure build up and hence the oil blow back.

The small tank connected to the bottom of the airbox to which the breathers connect is an oil seperator, I've never examined an SV one specifically, but ordinarily they contain a labyrinth which allows gas to pass through but oil to collect and run back down the hoses and into the sump.