Clutchless gearchange benefit

I'm not sure if this is an actual benefit, or just percieved, but still.

Following from purchasing new boots last weekend, my riding has changed a little Basically, clutchless changes (both up and down) are now a LOT smoother. It literally feels as if I have an auto gearbox fitted to the SV, and it's just so much more of a pleasure to ride!

Anyhow, the benefit. Because I'm clutchless shifting (especially down, which has always troubled me), I'm also braking less, and letting the engine take more of the work, which at least FEELS like I'm carrying more speed around corners. GREAT!

Just thought I'd share my happiness, and yes, I know that changing down without the clutch & not being smooth can cause damage to the bike (and me), but by god it sounds nice!

Clutchless down-shifting

Baph, clutchless downshifting will destroy your gearbox in no time, certainly quicker if the revs are higher. Slipper clutches allow downshifting without matching revs but I'd still use the clutch.

You'll end up with a gearbox full of teeth of your lucky, unlucky you'll have a broken tooth land in the remaining gears and lock it solid, very risky.

I refer you both to this thread.

So long as you do it right, apparently it's not that bad. I'm not forcing the lever at all, and the bike isn't jerky. 100% smooth.

Bike gear boxes are constant mesh, always have a gear engaged (exept nuetral), the clutch allows the output shaft to freewheel letting the gears change without the stress of driving the bike. By changing up without a clutch, you back off the throttle and hence ease the stresses between the gears so an up shift can be done without damage if the backing off the throttle and geer change are done as one.

I don't think its the same thing in reverse on a change down (can't spin up a shaft thats in constant mesh without the other shaft reacting).

Anyway it's not my gearbox and I'll not do it on the downshift. Probably not going to try and get it right. My choice I guess. I'm happy to be proven wrong though. Times, understanding and gearbox technology must have changed a lot if this is the case.

Well thats my two bobs worth.

A thought remaining on this:

***IF*** I do ruin the gearbox, would it be apparent, after stripping it, that this has been caused by clutchless shifting?

If it's not apparent, the only thing I should loose ***IF*** my gearbox goes down the pan, is time on the bike. I'm 8000miles into a 2 year unlimited milage warranty.

Yes, I know that unlimited never really means unlimited, but you can bet that I'd talk to a solicitor over a warranty dispute rather than pay then & get the bike fixed, then argue the toss.

[fizzwheel]

Here's something written by somebody who's opinion I trust...

Originally Posted by Sid Squid

It depends...mainly on the specific technique used.

A well executed clutchless change puts no more wear/stress/load on anything, and clearly puts less wear on the clutch, 'cos you didn't use it.

Upchanges:

There are several ways to do it, all essentially similar, differing only in detail and by the advantage they may give, (if you get it right that is).

Fastest change, used as if you're on a timed quarter, (ie drag racing):
Preload the lever firmly, roll out the throttle *just* enough for the dogs to be unloaded and the change to occur. With practice (ie lots of time on the strip), this can be a lightning fast change, the gear will go through very quickly, the time taken from on, to off, to on throttle is where the practice/skill lies, the further out you roll the throttle the longer it takes, the less you roll it out the harder the gear change is which takes longer too.
Downside: Wear, on everything, forks/grooves/pins/drum/dogs the lot, can be worth lots of time though, (relatively speaking, in a quick quarter), that said, as long as you don't make a constant habit of it, you won't break anything that quickly.

Lazy change, changing gear smoooooothly and unhurriedly just exactly like you would with the clutch, only...without:
Roll throttle out, lift gear lever, roll throttle back in again. If you do it right this change can be smoother than a cashmere codpiece, what you're looking for is for there to be no 'jerk' in the drive, bit of practice though and anyone can do it, the trick, (if there is one), is to only drop the throttle out to the point at which you would need it to be so that in the next gear you would neither be accelerating or decelerating from the speed at which you initiated the change, thus allows all the bits and pieces to be revolving at as near the same speed as possible thus they mesh together as imperceptibly as possible.
Downside: None, if you get it right, which isn't hard. Won't win you any drag races though.

Downchanges, Bit different this, similar principle to lazy change, that is: Smooooth.

First some things to know:
No matter what gear you're in, when the engine isn't running the speed of everything is nil, (yeah I know, blindingly bloody obvious, but hold that thought), that is; all the same speed. Using convenient figures, say that at 10,000rpm 1st gear makes the output shaft of the gearbox revolve at 1000rpm, 2nd 2000rpm, 3rd 3000rpm etc. Knowing this it can easily be seen that the faster the engine speed is, the further apart, relatively speaking, the speeds of the gearbox parts are. At 10,000rpm the relative speeds are 1000rpm apart, at 5000rpm 500rpm apart, at tickover (say 1000rpm, easy numbers see? I like that), the relative speeds only differ by 100rpm.

A smooth change occurs when the various bits that need to mesh are revolving at as similar speeds as is possible, in practice the slowest that you can run the engine is tickover, if you were to change down clutchless at as close to tickover as possible the relative parts would be as best speed matched as is possible. If you were to add the slightest smidgeon of throttle just as you go to change, this would unload the 'box and make the change easier, also it would speed the drive into the gearbox up a bit, such that it would be running at the slightly higher speed that the lower gear would demand to run at the same speed, just as in the the lazy change above.
Downside: Not easy to get right, and basically no advantage anyway, save for a useful technique to have when the clutch cable breaks at an inconvenient time, I have done several hundred miles like this, getting neutral while still rolling makes all the difference.

Personally I dont use the clutch all the time on an upshift, depends how I'm riding. However I always use the clutch on the down change. I can do a clutchless downchange if required. But I'd only consider it as an emergency method in order to get me home if I had a problem.

I actually started doing the "fastest change" to go up the box, but naturally, this moved to the "lazy change". My downshifts this morning were all "lazy changes."

Only that I was squeezing the throttle slightly to go down, VERY slightly mind, then once in gear, dump the throttle to allow engine braking to take place. There was also a few times where I changed down (without the clutch) then accellerated around a car etc.

I think I'm going to try riding as I did on the way into the office this morning, only using the clutch to change gear down, and see if I'm as smooth, and if I carry as much corner speed.

Can't hurt to try new things

[TSM]

Originally Posted by Baph

Can't hurt to try new things

Well with winter set in now, roads with little grip, if you were to get the down shift wrong badly it would make the bike squirm. Also if you down shift and then imediatly apply the power, the rear wheel may loose traction on the down shift then when you apply the power it has no time to grip and may flick you off.

Whichever way, carefull as it may take you by surprise.

You learn somethin new every day. Nothing in the hanbook about using the clutch apart from pulling away. I bow to the beings of superior knowledge and interlect, so thats everyone here then.

Back to my nap.