View Full Version : Bikers are bad?
madness
08-09-09, 11:41 AM
I've decided to post this thread rather than derail the one about the Welsh Protest Ride.
How many of us, as bikers, actually ride within the law?
I know that I'm guilty of doing stuff that I shouldn't. Most of us seem to have some disregard for the law and the rules of the road. I don't think I've ever come across a biker who always rides within the law. We are, essentially our own worst enemy, and police/government action is a result of our actions.
Yes, there are a minority of absolute lunatic bikers out there, but the rest of us are not entirely blameless.
I think that the majority of us could easily lose our licences if the police were in the right place at the right time.
Please discuss!
svdemon
08-09-09, 11:42 AM
I would love to meet one road user who has never broken the law!
Mr Speirs
08-09-09, 11:43 AM
Becareful what you admit to doing on a public forum, it may come back and bite you in the ass one day.
DanAbnormal
08-09-09, 11:45 AM
I break the law every single time I ride I think.
Do I feel bad? No.
If I got caught it would be fair cop guv'nor. The trick is to do it when it's appropriate.
DanAbnormal
08-09-09, 11:46 AM
Becareful what you admit to doing on a public forum, it may come back and bite you in the ass one day.
Tee hee.
Okay, I did 552 miles an hour this morning.
Uh oh, here come the plod! :rolleyes:
Luckypants
08-09-09, 11:53 AM
Well I agree, but I could also say that about drivers of other vehicles. I think driving standards are slipping and so many people are selective about which laws they comply with.
I do ride outside the law by treating NSL roads with my own judgement rather than sticking to 60, the only proviso being I try to keep it down below licence losing speed if I was clocked.
Speed aside, I try to ride / drive to the letter and spirit of the law. I know some have been frustrated by my adherence to 30s and 40s (and most 50s) or complete refusal to overtake on solid whites (Tractors etc excepted). Many, many other bikers I know have a similar attitude, they take their riding seriously and so try to ride to a good standard.
Again, I could apply the above paragraph to most sports car drivers who are also enthusiasts. But we as bikers would point the finger at some idiot in a sports car, as they would at a loony biker.
I'm saying that in any group there are idiots that tarnish the rest of the group. With bikers, there is already an element of the 'rebel without a cause' or 'rocker' perception with non-bikers, so it don't take much to be tarnished as bad boys...
pencil shavings
08-09-09, 11:54 AM
Im with DanAbnormal, everyone speeds at times. Even my mom has been knowen to, and she is the worlds slowest/most cautious driver.
some bikers are wreckles and speed past schools and make dangerous overtakes when they should sit back and relax, and those are the problem people. Not the people enjoying the empty country roads.
speed when it makes sence, not everywhere.
i for one tend to stick to 30 speeds
Stick to 30's. 40's, and 50's usually, so do the group I ride with.
NSL is you're own judgement.
philbut
08-09-09, 11:56 AM
TBH, yes, at some point most bikers will have done some silly overtake, or thought "hmmm, i wonder how fast it goes flat out". Maybe some of us have exceede the magic licence loosing ton (I am admitting to nothing ;-) ) . Like Dan says, if you do it on a busy road with loasd of people watching you are gonna p*ss them off. I wouldn't bother having a bike on the road if I was gonna pootle round at the speed limit as lets face it, its F'in boaring. I do know when to ride like a tit and when to just relax and take it easy - hence a clean licence. Many car drivers also have a blatant dis-regard for speed limits, particularly on the motorway. Its the people that actually have accidents who cause the issus as the police and government need to appear to be reducing casualties on the road and hence a campaign against speeding drivers is a good way of convincing the public you are doing something. Whether it works is another matter completely. so, if we all stop crashing...
Muppets in chaved up Corsa's are far worse than any bike rider. They are also more likely to kill their schoolgirl passengers but they are not victimised like bike riders are. If the police treated all road users the same then we wouldnt be able to claim discrimination. IE:- The boys in blue in North Wales. I believe we could all possibly commit a motoring offence at some time but i for one have NEVER EVER broken the law ever your honour. HONEST!!!
fastdruid
08-09-09, 12:01 PM
*EVERYONE* and I mean *EVERYONE* on the road today if the police were in the "right place" at the "right time" would lose their license within a day, a week at most.
From the granny that does 40mph *everywhere* to the bike that obeys 30's/40's/50's yet speeds in NSL's to the people that stop at a red with their front wheels over the line. No one is blameless.
Druid
El Saxo
08-09-09, 12:04 PM
I break the law every single time I ride I think.
Do I feel bad? No.
If I got caught it would be fair cop guv'nor. The trick is to do it when it's appropriate.
My thoughts exactly - I'm well aware of the consequences of riding 'too fast' and fully expect to get pulled for it if I do it & get caught.
I'm also aware it might give other road users a bad impression of bikers sometimes, but saying 'all bikers are kn0bs' is no different than saying that all of any other group of people are idiots, it's stereotyping.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 12:06 PM
There are double white lines in utterly stupid places.
There are 30 limits that should rightly be NSLs.
It is sometimes safer to pass the white line at traffic lights than it is to stay behind it.
What is more important, law or sense?
madness
08-09-09, 12:06 PM
*EVERYONE* and I mean *EVERYONE* on the road today if the police were in the "right place" at the "right time" would lose their license within a day, a week at most.
From the granny that does 40mph *everywhere* to the bike that obeys 30's/40's/50's yet speeds in NSL's to the people that stop at a red with their front wheels over the line. No one is blameless.
Druid
I agree, I know I would.
I generally stick to 30 and 40 limits plus or minus 10 per cent. Anywhere else I use my own judgement.
madness
08-09-09, 12:08 PM
There are double white lines in utterly stupid places.
There are 30 limits that should rightly be NSLs.
It is sometimes safer to pass the white line at traffic lights than it is to stay behind it.
What is more important, law or sense?
Unfortunately being sensisble isn't a valid defence.
El Saxo
08-09-09, 12:08 PM
There are double white lines in utterly stupid places.
There are 30 limits that should rightly be NSLs.
It is sometimes safer to pass the white line at traffic lights than it is to stay behind it.
What is more important, law or sense?
In my experience the law and common sense are often mutually exclusive, which is why we have to legislate for idiots...
fastdruid
08-09-09, 12:09 PM
Unfortunately being sensisble isn't a valid defence.
Worked for me, DWDCA for wheeling, found Not Guilty.
Druid
madness
08-09-09, 12:14 PM
Dwdca ?
Warthog
08-09-09, 12:14 PM
I think you need to make a distinction between "bad" and "illegal". In my opinion riding technically illegally (33 in a 30, stopping in the bicycle part at the front of a queue, 80 in a NSL, filtering at a bit of speed, undertaking middle lane morons gently and safely), is a far cry from being "bad".
merlin427
08-09-09, 12:18 PM
I'd say on the whole most motorcyclists are worse than most other rode users (Oh heck, I'm in for some greif now!) and they spend more time bitching about all the bad stuff that other road users get up to, what a buch of to$$ers 'cage' drivers are and so on, but then put their lives in their hands. I've lost count of the number of times when, if I had not taken avoiding acton (and seen others do the same), another motorcyclist whold have had a really bad end to their day.
As well as riding a motorcycle and driving a car I also spend a fair amount of time on a push bike where you tend to get treated with contempt by all other road users (you know, the kind of thing motorcyclists spend so much time complaining about) and although cars can be bad by far the worst are trucks followed pretty closely by motorcyclists, particularly the perculiar practice many seem to excercise of ragging up directly behind an overtakee and then flipping out and back in again at the last second - Skimming I've named it. The question is, given that one suffers so much abuse on a motorcycle why do motorcyclist insist on giving exactly the same back to other road users? The only common rule appears to be might is right.
Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive (I dont' like my life being threatened for some reason) but statistics consistently show that motorcyclists suffer the greatest number of accidents where no-one else was involved (Yeah I know, it's that patch of Diesel) which makes you question how much responsibility they hold in cases where other vehicles are involved!
I'm quite happy to live and let live and if others choose ride in a way that will give them a high probability of injury/death that's up to them but I don't appreciate the coresponding increase I have to pay in insurance as a result.
BTW Most of my concerns are NOT related to speed just bad riding/driving, speed is incidental.
Obviously none of the above relaets to the fine contributors on this site (which as well as being tounge in cheek is probably true as SVs are not amonst the obvious bikes you see being ridden badly) it's just the rest of the motorcyclist in the contry.
fastdruid
08-09-09, 12:23 PM
Dwdca ?
Driving Without Due Care and Attention.
Accelerated out of a roundabout, front wheel lifted over a crest, car behind spouted blue flashing lights...
Druid
fastdruid
08-09-09, 12:25 PM
statistics consistently show that motorcyclists suffer the greatest number of accidents where no-one else was involved (Yeah I know, it's that patch of Diesel) which makes you question how much responsibility they hold in cases where other vehicles are involved!
The exact same misjudgement that on a bike will see you upside down in a tree will just be a sphincter clench in a car (if that).
*That* is why there are so many more single vehicle accidents, a minor lockup in a car does not make the car fall over and leave the road.
Druid
Driving Without Due Care and Attention.
Accelerated out of a roundabout, front wheel lifted over a crest, car behind spouted blue flashing lights................
go on?
I honestly think us bikers are a rebellious lot. Not all of us want to break the sound barrier with speed but hate that we're treated like children when unnecessary. Most laws do make sense in that over-speeding in built up areas and schools are stupid risks for both riders and pedestrians but low limits on highways, motorways and by-pass roads are just money spinners.
Oh, almost had an off yesterday. Stopped at lights at a junction and first time it drizzled after a long hot summer so riding especially careful due to the slippery substance created by first rain and accumulated dirt. Green light and crossed the crossroad while giving a free show to the car drivers waiting their light as I spin my rear tyre from a patch of camouflaged diesel. Either god or experience kept my cool and hands from the brake lever, kept constant gas and with one foot out ala Rossi made the coming corner only to get my back wheel out again from the adhering diesel to my rear tyre. Again kept upright, just and slowly made it to work, late, my ego deflated.
Who's fault is that?
Alpinestarhero
08-09-09, 12:30 PM
NSL roads, like luckypants there, I ride as I feel comfortable. If that means 40 mph, then i'll do 40. if it means 80, i'll do 80, generally when other road users are also doing this speed. I rarely exceed 80 mph, and if i do its only for a fleeting moment to make sure i definatly get past such and such vehicle (usually a lorry that is obscuring my vision). 30's i treat with great caution, 40's less so but remain very vigilant. I don't overtake on solid white lines, usually i feel they are there for a reason so prefer to play safe.
I try my best to provide the correct signal for the manouver I am performing in good time, accompianied with hand gestures if I think its needed (ones like waving the drvier behind to go past me). I try and be courtious aswell, giving some wave of the arm or leg when I feel another road user has moved aside for me (when filtering) or has given me room to move to into a gap safely.
I ride within close agreement with the law, closer than some but maybe not as close as others. The way I see it is that if the way I ride has ment I have made it home in one peice for the last two years of riding in a very packed london, then my riding can't be bad.
Oh, and I advocate use of the horn to alert other road users to my presence. They might get offended, but its better than my bike / body / both through their window.
Matt
fastdruid
08-09-09, 12:36 PM
go on?
Went to court, represented my self, pleaded NG and won. Argued that while *pulling* a wheelie could be DWDCA or DD and that under some circumstances (for example a crowded high street) just the fact that the front wheel was in the air could be DWDCA by itsself that on a major road away from the public it should be decided on if the course of action that caused the wheelie was reasonable and that it should not be looked at in hindsight.
Made clear that I had made a mistake but corrected it and if I'd done it over again wouldn't have given so much throttle.
Magistrates agreed with me (helped that the officers concerned exaggerated the truth, contradicted one another and refused to acknowlege they could have been wrong about anything).
Stupid thing is that if they'd told the truth in the first place I'd have pleaded Guilty! lol
Druid
PsychoCannon
08-09-09, 12:37 PM
I think most users break at least one law or another, if you count technicalities and mistakes then EVERYONE does, it's impossable not to, we are human after all.
Anything from drifiting over the speed limit or not noticing a change to parking/stopping where you shouldn't.
That said it's easier on bikes, not only because they get to naught speeds so easily but it's also easy to do U-turns and get to places we shouldn't be.
Personally I've probably at some point or another possibly maybe hypothetically in 9 years of riding got a record that looks horrible on paper yet i'm not a bad/naughty/reckless rider at all.
Illegal U-Turn
Ridding in a bike lane
Riding on the wrong side of the road
Crossing solid white lines
Entering a hatched area when exit is not clear
Stopped in a "Bike" box at traffic lights
Riding in a Bus Lane
Ignoring a no left/right/Entry sign.
Wrong way down a one way street.
Riding across/on pavement
Parked illegally
Speeding (though never recklessly imho)
Failing to signal (who hasn't missed the indicator or realised their turning too late?)
Sounding a horn after xx hours.
Doing a wheelie (accident, lost control back in my newbie days)
Filtering at more than 10MPH greater than traffic
Filtering when traffic is moving at over 30mph
Swearing at a police officer (after he almost knocked me off my bike)
The ones I regret due to inexperience:
Crossed a red light (accident! back in my newbie days and not being aware enough)
Rolling burn out (Newbie days - Slammed brakes on with throttle still open!)
Riding without tax for a month (accident that was soon fixed!)
Riding without securing my helmet strap (accident obviously!)
Riding with no front right indicator (Dropped and broke my right indicator, didn't get it fixed for about a month)
DWDCA - I've started riding home, then gotten home and thought wait a minute...how'd i get here...*day dreaming*....not good!
Not being in control of my vehicle (Skids, collisions, man hole covers etc)
I really agreed with Alpinestarhero's post, in that I travel in relatively the same speeds as he does and find travelling more than that not to be in my fun zone anyway as I'm too tense for it. It's ok for a while but for a duration of more than a few minutes is unbearable on my bike at least, from wind factor and everything else. I do realise from riding better bikes than mine that this treshold can be higher, so the bike does make a difference. A friend once told me that bikes are like horses. Don't buy a racehorse if you'd like to enjoy the views. A racebike will make you ride it faster whilst a naked bike feels ok to be ridden slower.
PsychoCannon
08-09-09, 12:57 PM
Yup! some bikes feel "good" at different speeds.
My SV felt good about 80, any faster was hard work.
MY friends Daytona feels fun over a tonne.
My current bike feels like it's doing 30 no matter how fast you go because of the ridiculously large screen so I find I bimble along at 60-70 as that's where the revs are easy in top gear :confused:
Dave20046
08-09-09, 01:00 PM
After having a bike cop follow me riding as normal through varied environments and saying I was fine, I have no quarms with how I ride. I agree with sally (apart from 50's are slightly more debateable if you're in the peak district).
(apart from 50's are slightly more debateable if you're in the peak district).
That's what surprised me last weekend, do you actually have nsl roads there?
Bluewolf
08-09-09, 01:10 PM
What is more important, law or sense?
Neither apparently.
Collecting as much revenue from the motorist to line their f***ing pockets is the most important thing these days. Common sense doesn't get a look in. :toss:
Dave20046
08-09-09, 01:17 PM
That's what surprised me last weekend, do you actually have nsl roads there?
6-12 months ago most of the roads we went on were deemed safe to do the national speedlimit on by the powers that be... suddenly if you do 60mph on that same stretch you are speeding and will have points on your license and be fined if caught? :scratch:
There are very few NSL roads now :(
PsychoCannon
08-09-09, 01:27 PM
Anyone else notice that when they lower limits they usually change it from a tight corner with a new speed camera on said same corner?
A few years ago they changed a NSL to 50 around the watford area and a sign post and speed camera went up round a tight corner there, 2 accidents in that first week =p.
If it was for saftey they would of put the signage and camera up before the corner not round it =p.
Biker Biggles
08-09-09, 03:39 PM
There are double white lines in utterly stupid places.
There are 30 limits that should rightly be NSLs.
It is sometimes safer to pass the white line at traffic lights than it is to stay behind it.
What is more important, law or sense?
This is why I object to the "Man up and take it"when you get caught attitude.That is fine if you have done something really stupid and illegal and got caught,but if the law is an &rse and you have fallen foul of it,fight it anyway you can.Its quite clear from this thread and plenty of others that almost everyone breaks the law on speeding regularly,so why give it the respect it doesnt deserve when you get caught?
custard
08-09-09, 04:02 PM
Anyone else notice that when they lower limits they usually change it from a tight corner with a new speed camera on said same corner?
A few years ago they changed a NSL to 50 around the watford area and a sign post and speed camera went up round a tight corner there, 2 accidents in that first week =p.
If it was for saftey they would of put the signage and camera up before the corner not round it =p.
wheres that then?
Dave20046
08-09-09, 04:06 PM
wheres that then?
I don't doubt it round sheffield they tend to position them near complex junctions where you really need your eyes to be anywhere but the speedo.
PsychoCannon
08-09-09, 04:10 PM
I'll have to googlemap it as it was on a route I took from Harrow to Watford years ago, first day I found out about it was when the guy in front slammed his brakes when he saw the camera.
Fine for him, but bikes breaking hard round corners...not so much fun!
SoulKiss
08-09-09, 04:26 PM
I'll have to googlemap it as it was on a route I took from Harrow to Watford years ago, first day I found out about it was when the guy in front slammed his brakes when he saw the camera.
Fine for him, but bikes breaking hard round corners...not so much fun!
One Word
INFORAD
I thought mine was broken going down the A90 yesterday, being constantly on Red (warning of Camera) , but no, there really ARE that many speed cameras on that road.
Good job there are no "Undertaking Cameras" tho - the number of muppets that would sit in the outside lane at what I figure must have been just under the limit (obviously I couldn't read their speedo :p) and not pull over if there was a vehicle in sight already in that lane was incredible...
One Word
INFORAD
I thought mine was broken going down the A90 yesterday, being constantly on Red (warning of Camera) , but no, there really ARE that many speed cameras on that road.
Good job there are no "Undertaking Cameras" tho - the number of muppets that would sit in the outside lane at what I figure must have been just under the limit (obviously I couldn't read their speedo :p) and not pull over if there was a vehicle in sight already in that lane was incredible...
Ahh... nothing like the north-east eh? ;)
Next time you're around use the A92
fastdruid
08-09-09, 04:31 PM
Good job there are no "Undertaking Cameras" tho - the number of muppets that would sit in the outside lane at what I figure must have been just under the limit (obviously I couldn't read their speedo :p) and not pull over if there was a vehicle in sight already in that lane was incredible...
That's great until you undertake an unmarked police car or worse undertake an unmarked police car, another car, move back into the outside lane and engage warp speed, because then you get blue flashy lights in your mirrors! :-)
Druid
I always ride 110% to the law :-)
sutlane
08-09-09, 07:09 PM
National police guidelines for applying FPN tickets and summons (tom magistrates court) from ACPO:
Limit FPN Summons
20 25 35
30 35 50
40 46 66
50 57 76
60 68 86
70 79 96
FPN = 3 points £60
Summons = Max £2000 and up to 6month prison
Hope this helps some, obviously it is still to the discretion of the officer whether they apply FPN or summons or give a warning, normally depending on safety of riding/driving, but most will work within this.
petevtwin650
08-09-09, 07:32 PM
Stick to 30 and 40 limits but not so diligently as Luckypants or Mr Speirs. Most 50's seem to re-limited 60's so are open to interpretation. Crossing solid whites a no no too.
But to balance out the Bad biker image, we try and acknowledge other courteous road users and wave to kids in cars or watching from the pavement.
ManxMatt34
08-09-09, 07:36 PM
Stick to 30 and 40 limits but not so diligently as Luckypants or Mr Speirs. Most 50's seem to re-limited 60's so are open to interpretation. Crossing solid whites a no no too.
But to balance out the Bad biker image, we try and acknowledge other courteous road users and wave to kids in cars or watching from the pavement.
Yeh i agree with second half of this statemeant, as too 30's and 40's i won't push it much in these, i will to pass someone for a split second but generally try not to blast through unless there blindingly obvious stupid 30's/40's i can think of two near me.
General rule of thumb for me is make good consistent progress with occasional blast of adreniline!
metalangel
08-09-09, 07:43 PM
The only place I'd even consider doing something other than the speed limit or below it is the motorway where there's far fewer things to appear out of nowhere and kill you.
ManxMatt34
08-09-09, 07:54 PM
The only place I'd even consider doing something other than the speed limit or below it is the motorway where there's far fewer things to appear out of nowhere and kill you.
I've had plenty of close incidents on motorway, worse was when we were in car middle lane, a van on inside started pulling to us, car in right hand lane just gonna get smashed into.
Last second he see's us sweres off into fields doing god knows what speed missed us by about 2 inchs.
Worse i had on bike recently with other sv'rs was on way to AR as discussed in previous threads i nearly never made it thanks to a saab in the middle lane on his bludy bluetooth headset gassing.... I hate motorways and just 99% of times tank it down the 3rd lane so i only gotta watch mirrors and too me left.
petevtwin650
08-09-09, 07:57 PM
The only place I'd even consider doing something other than the speed limit or below it is the motorway where there's far fewer things to appear out of nowhere and kill you.
I hope that was a tongue in cheek comment. The sensation of speed is lost to a large extent on a wide road such as motorway, so a greater speed is needed to excite whereas on twisty stuff the speed has to be nowhere near as great.
Agree about the safety element though.
metalangel
08-09-09, 07:59 PM
@manxmatt: Oh, I don't deny that. I've been on the motorway a lot in the last few days and I had an MX-5 almost drive into the side of me yesterday as he decided to overtake the same truck as me without checking his blind spot, I've had people joining the carriageway at 30mph because they didn't slot into the gaps that other people left for them and panicked and slowed down...
But compared to city and country roads, where there's hidden driveways, blind corners, parked cars, pedestrians, bus stops, side streets...
@petevtwin: It was all about the safety angle. No way does it feel as fast, but I'm not really into that anyway as the whole time I'll be thinking about what could go wrong or a set of blue lights appearing behind me or seeing a white and yellow van on an overpass and getting a letter through the post a few days later.
fizzwheel
08-09-09, 08:01 PM
Stick to 30 and 40 limits but not so diligently as Luckypants or Mr Speirs. Most 50's seem to re-limited 60's so are open to interpretation. Crossing solid whites a no no too.
Thats pretty much view on it, I will take a liberty with a 40 as there are a few places around here, that used to be NSL, that for no fathomable reason have been turned into a 40mph, but thats using my local knowledge.
Motorways well it depends on the traffic and time of day etc etc...
ManxMatt34
08-09-09, 08:02 PM
@manxmatt: Oh, I don't deny that. I've been on the motorway a lot in the last few days and I had an MX-5 almost drive into the side of me yesterday as he decided to overtake the same truck as me without checking his blind spot, I've had people joining the carriageway at 30mph because they didn't slot into the gaps that other people left for them and panicked and slowed down...
But compared to city and country roads, where there's hidden driveways, blind corners, parked cars, pedestrians, bus stops, side streets...
@petevtwin: It was all about the safety angle. No way does it feel as fast, but I'm not really into that anyway as the whole time I'll be thinking about what could go wrong or a set of blue lights appearing behind me or seeing a white and yellow van on an overpass and getting a letter through the post a few days later.
I don't do most of the above been on the island as much as the majority on here... i mainly do countryish based roads farm gates/blind bends are the biggest threat and certinaly a massive killer here.
Mr Speirs
08-09-09, 08:04 PM
Stick to 30 and 40 limits but not so diligently as Luckypants or Mr Speirs.
I do stick to 30's and 40's quite rigidly. Mostly because mostly where there are those limits there isn't much scope for enjoyable riding so don't really see the point.
What worries me most about riding standards is the fact that they appear to be getting worse, no doubt due in part to the "born again"/hobby phenomenon and the fact that increasing numbers seem to feel it's acceptable to try to ride the public highway like it's a racetrack (getting away with it too much due to the high quality of modern machinery - they'd have crashed much sooner on an old Z650 or GS500, for example, perhaps learning a lesson in the process).
My personal view is that the personal safety of me and my riding companions is paramount. I generally put the law a close second but will interpret to suit in order to "make progress".
For the record on speed limits, I am pretty religious about sticking to 30s, heavily compliant for 40s but generally use 50 and NSL signs merely as another piece of information to factor into my risk assessment of what is appropriate speed. (In particular, I have completely lost respect for the 50 limit now that so many former NSLs have been arbitrarily re-badged - it seems there are now hardly any NSL single carriageways in Warwickshire and I note in earlier posts that the Peak District has been similarly plagued.)
ManxMatt34
08-09-09, 08:19 PM
The plagues of the 50's are appearing on the island here aswell, thats simply because of idiots who do go causing huge crashes with fatalities whether it be killing themselves or someone else.
Kills the roads off as the govermeant just see it as a reason to limit the area.... it's like everything in the world... all done by procedure and done by the book. Makes me yawn....
same as most here, religious of 30/40/50 but in national speed limit I will sometimes ride to the limits of my ability if conditions permit (traffic levels etc)- I like to think that if I stuff it up there are no other road users in danger of a flying motorcycle causing other accidents (hopefully) too.
We all know trackdays are for riding outside the law - but £130 is a bit too steep for eveytime I want to open the taps.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 08:41 PM
This is why I object to the "Man up and take it"when you get caught attitude.That is fine if you have done something really stupid and illegal and got caught,but if the law is an &rse and you have fallen foul of it,fight it anyway you can.Its quite clear from this thread and plenty of others that almost everyone breaks the law on speeding regularly,so why give it the respect it doesnt deserve when you get caught?
I hate this attitude too.
I swear to tell the truth, the half truth and nothing like the truth.
The only place I'd even consider doing something other than the speed limit or below it is the motorway where there's far fewer things to appear out of nowhere and kill you.
Few things appear out of nowhere. And if they can, they are just as bad doing 60 or 90.
Personally, I see my own observational limits as far more important than the law. Then again, were you serious?
Spiderman
08-09-09, 08:52 PM
Not read all the thread so appologies if i;m repeating things said already...
I ride how i see fit for the road and the time...and i;ll be honest my mood. I dont have a death wish so i ride within sensible limits but my morning commute on dual carriageways seems me hit triple figures regularly. I think the limit is a 50 or 60 but thb i dont care as its an arbitrary number for me to look at and fo meh to.
I also take drugs and break the law when i feel like it. Why cos i;m a human who makes my own choices in life and doesnt o everything that some simpleton politician wants me to do.
If i get caught i use my charm and wit to try and get out of it or at least a lesser punishment.
Does that make me a bad person?
I'm the only one who regulaly talks to all the homeless guys n gals who pass by us in soho every friday. I give them change when i can and old warm clothes in the winter time to keep warm.
I also do the Santa Toy Run every year and spend my own money to buy gifts for random kids who's faces i never get so see when they tear the pressies open.
I also get road rage and from time to time find myself involved in stupid street fights.
Do any of these make me a good or bad person? I dunno tbh but they all make me one thing that i'm sure of, an individual.
And thats all i wanna be treated as and judged as.
sutlane
08-09-09, 08:54 PM
As I see it take pleasure and pride in good riding that is safe and progressive. As has been said in the twisties you do not have to break the speed limit to have fun. If you want to go fast and get adrenalin kicks from your bike, take it to a track or get a track bike.
ManxMatt34
08-09-09, 08:56 PM
Simplifies my way of looking at life more and more nowadays, do what you want ... but suppose only addition would be treat others how you want to be treated... same with treat roads how you want to be treated... etc.. you get the point. Can't fault spidey in anyway as a gentleman as many on the forums cant.
And tbh i wouldn't judge you or anyone on those desicions in life or biking if it means you carry on being the person i've met and spoke to so far.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 09:08 PM
As I see it take pleasure and pride in good riding that is safe and progressive. As has been said in the twisties you do not have to break the speed limit to have fun. If you want to go fast and get adrenalin kicks from your bike, take it to a track or get a track bike.
There are some twisties round here in which you can ride like a total nutter and not exceed the speed limit. Ironically ace!
Had another thought with regards to OP's question:
Is it possible that, because many of the traffic laws and accepted principles, and even the design of road layouts, have not taken account of the unique features of two wheelers, when we adapt to these inconsistencies we are seen as outlaws?
As most road users are programmed for car/van driving conditions and performance levels, often perfectly straightforward manouevres on a bike are seen as outrageous (e.g. filtering, short straight overtakes). Bear in mind that the performance of many of the vehicles that the likes of Top Gear car-nuts drool over, and dream of, is comparable to the everyday performance of the lowly SV, never mind bigger engined bikes. Well sub-100mph anyway!
sunshine
08-09-09, 09:46 PM
we all break the law, but tbh its needed sometimes really :D ok i have points on my licence. but when a cage drivers knocks you off and drives off why should i care about the law when the law doesnt care about me?
im sure everyone would understand riding home after being fired means some 30-40 people are going to get cut-up and have to move out of my way. i pay road tax as well move :@ im louder than you :@
madness
08-09-09, 09:53 PM
Has anyone/organisation done a survey to find out how we are perceived by non bikers? It would be quite interesting to find out. I don't think the current trend for signs saying 'Beware Bikers' or '25 Bikers killed or injured on this road... etc' do us any favours. I'm sure they help paint a poor picture of us to non bikers.
And why is the attitude to bikers in France so different to here?
-Ralph-
08-09-09, 09:56 PM
I'd say on the whole most motorcyclists are worse than most other rode users (Oh heck, I'm in for some greif now!) and they spend more time bitching about all the bad stuff that other road users get up to, what a buch of to$$ers 'cage' drivers are and so on
This is a bit unfair Merlin. I'd only say bikers were worse for speeding, overtaking on white lines and perhaps some other paint on road type offences in town. A small minority stray into dangerous driving territory IMO, but again that's due to excessive speed.
Cagers are much worse than bikers when it comes to serious offences with nasty consequences, such as drink & drug driving, tailgating, mobile phone talking, unfit vehicles, driving without due care type offences, and there are just as many cagers guilty of dangerous driving.
Bikers are generally better drivers, most specifically with respect to alertness and observations. It's exactly because of lack of these that many cagers knock bikers off. This is why bikers bitch so much. Cagers don't tend to bitch the same, but because they don't even notice or don't care about the kind of things bikers are bitching about.
Spiderman
08-09-09, 09:59 PM
And why is the attitude to bikers in France so different to here?
Most European countries treat peds and small bikes like we do bmx -es and the like. They are for kids and kids grow up and find their independence on them. So most everyone has owned or ridden something with 2 wheels at some time and they remember who it felt to be young, stupid and vulnerable but think you are indestructible.
Sadly here its not like that, its more a case of being driven around by mum and dad till you get to an age to get your own car for the vast majoirity. Partly to do with the weather i guess and partly to do with some perceived "them and us" attitude.
yorkie_chris
08-09-09, 10:35 PM
I'd say on the whole most motorcyclists are worse than most other rode users (Oh heck, I'm in for some greif now!) and they spend more time bitching about all the bad stuff that other road users get up to, what a buch of to$$ers 'cage' drivers are and so on, but then put their lives in their hands. I've lost count of the number of times when, if I had not taken avoiding acton (and seen others do the same), another motorcyclist whold have had a really bad end to their day.
I blame power rangers and sunday missileists for this. Those using bikes for transport tend to be a bit less daft.
But anyway, I disagree. How many times do you see bikers on the phone, texting, talking to their spawn in the back, adjusting the radio etc. etc. Hell fire, I have a very careful think about things before I even take my hands off the bars to adjust my gloves!
There is always the moment of innattention when daydreaming or something, but that happens a lot more in a cage where it's warm and comfy.
i love it when people post how they never brake the law, then when you actuly meet them, the rule books out the window
madness
09-09-09, 06:53 AM
i love it when people post how they never brake the law, then when you actuly meet them, the rule books out the window
Nice one Hovis, very perceptive. I think alot of us think we are more law abiding than we actually are. I'm certainly better when riding alone or with Ibby than when I'm out with the boys.
Dave20046
09-09-09, 07:16 AM
i love it when people post how they never brake the law, then when you actuly meet them, the rule books out the window
Certain members *ahem*[-X have made it very difficult for me to post the Peaks video.
Certain members *ahem*[-X have made it very difficult for me to post the Peaks video.
cant you just blank my plate?;)
Geoffrey
09-09-09, 07:26 AM
bad drivers are in every type of vehicle on the road, a small minority does not make them all bad
I blame power rangers and sunday missileists for this.
especially around the country roads of wiltshire, full of these idiots
Dave20046
09-09-09, 07:28 AM
cant you just blank my plate?;)
I don't know how :( Anyway I don't have loads of time so it's going to be a boring lengthy video I'm afraid. I had about 3hours of footage all from cracking roads so I'm just quickly slapping it all together but I reeckon it's going to end up being 10 mins long! :neutral:
Some bikers don't help - take this morning for instance (and this happens quite a lot and is always the same guys on the same bikes)
Undertaking traffic doing 75, squeezing down the outside of a car in the outside lane! and getting annoyed people aren't moving over when there is clearly a string of traffic ahead 15 cars long in the fast lane as lorries are overtaking each other,
The problem is these guys are riding faster than good road observations can keep track of, moving in and out of blind spots - if they even understand they are doing that, and getting annoyed when the get cut up, pulled out on.
These guys are ****ing off hundreds of road users (on a daily basis) who are driving in a corteous manner.
Then when a good biker passes he gets no road respect!
Undertaking traffic doing 75,
then they should not be sat in the "fast" lane, when the other 2 are empty
on my way to devon, i was mostly in the slow lane, as it was empty, i was undertaking everyone, the other 2 lanes were fairly busy, i had to pull out to overtake the odd lorry or caravan, but that was it
then they should not be sat in the "fast" lane, when the other 2 are empty
The other two weren't empty - that was my point - they were getting annoyed that cars weren't pulling over when they had nowhere to go
Also if there are two slow moving vehicles, such as lorries, overtaking in the slow and middle lane - people will occupy the fast lane to get past leaving the a 'dead space' behind the two vehicles - this is not an invitation to undertake, just people looking ahead and changing lanes accordingly
PsychoCannon
09-09-09, 09:33 AM
I know what you mean and I try as hard as I can to make myself visable and predictable, not only for cars but for other bikers, it naffs me off when I'm working through traffic and a bike ahead is all over the freaking place trying to find a way through like a stoned fly against an open window!
Just go with the flow until something presents itself.
Also we I know for a fact when I get in a car I my spacial awareness is shot to hell as I'm not used to it, there are a few "flash points" on my way home and into work where traffic builds up and you see some bikers get really REALLY angry at car drivers who won't pull over to let them through when the car driver has maybe 10cm of space to play with, for a bike that's fine and enogugh to let another bike pass, in a car..not so easy to judge or see :)
The cars that have tonnes of space and still refuse to move however are just gits =p, but at the end of the day it's not like they are obligated to make space for me but, it would be polite to! but hey..not everyone is =p
Received a text today from another biker
"Some people got arrested on Sunday, kept in the cells for 12 hours. The group was joined by an unmarked silver Blade, one bike will be crushed, others will find out next month."
-Ralph-
09-09-09, 10:02 AM
Received a text today from another biker
"Some people got arrested on Sunday, kept in the cells for 12 hours. The group was joined by an unmarked silver Blade, one bike will be crushed, others will find out next month."
Excellent, where was this? If the police found it necessary to take that kind of action, they are exactly the kind of bikers we need taken off the road.
Dave20046
09-09-09, 10:09 AM
Excellent, where was this? If the police found it necessary to take that kind of action, they are exactly the kind of bikers we need taken off the road.
Depends what they were doing, I'd just be a bit worried one of the riders found a silver blade pushing him at 70mph+ into NSL corners and now has points & a fine etc.
Excellent, where was this? If the police found it necessary to take that kind of action, they are exactly the kind of bikers we need taken off the road.
:confused:
how is this excellent?
you dont even know what they did
fizzwheel
09-09-09, 10:22 AM
you dont even know what they did
Its must have been something stupid or that the bike wasnt insured or something like, police dont seize / crush bikes lightly...
I don't have anymore details to give you, but the only thing I can think of is the - is it S.59? (like an ASBO) which you get fr antisocial behaviour. Cuaght twice & they take your bike & crush it. I guess one of them was already on one strike http://www.glass-uk.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=267&Itemid=492
So as you say Ralph. He could have been caught doing a wheelie, or revving the bike too much on 2 separate occasions.
Definitely the sort of people we want off the road.
Received a text today from another biker
"Some people got arrested on Sunday, kept in the cells for 12 hours. The group was joined by an unmarked silver Blade, one bike will be crushed, others will find out next month."
Good effort!
Ten days of riding like idiots on the continent and the worst we got was two German cops merely threatening to seize the bikes. Clearly we're mere amateurs compared to your mate!
metalangel
09-09-09, 11:04 AM
Few things appear out of nowhere. And if they can, they are just as bad doing 60 or 90.
Personally, I see my own observational limits as far more important than the law. Then again, were you serious?
I've nearly been smashed into several times recently by people ignoring stop signs and give way lines, where they can't see down the road they're emerging onto until they're on the line... so they just slow down a bit and come out. In at least one of the cases of this had I been doing anything other than 30mph I might not have stopped in time - and certainly on a bike the heavy braking could have caused a problem.
yorkie_chris
09-09-09, 11:07 AM
Problem with the section 59 stuff is any jumped up little pr1ck with an axe to grind can have your bike siezed. Obviously you need to pay £100+ to get it back, no evidence required...
madness
09-09-09, 11:11 AM
Good effort!
Ten days of riding like idiots on the continent and the worst we got was two German cops merely threatening to seize the bikes. Clearly we're mere amateurs compared to your mate!
If you were 'riding like idiots', should you be on the road?
I think most of us are guilty of it on occasions. I know that I was a bit too close to the limit of my ability a couple of times recently.
I try my best to stick to 30s and 40s - most 50s around my way are a joke so I treat them the same as 60s - and will go a speed I feel the conditions allow.
I will hang my head in shame and say that I do overtake on double lines and some cross hatchings (situation dependant)
So yes I am a bad person mostly :toss:
If you were 'riding like idiots', should you be on the road?
I think most of us are guilty of it on occasions. I know that I was a bit too close to the limit of my ability a couple of times recently.
define "idiot"
;)
madness
09-09-09, 11:18 AM
define "idiot"
;)
Some might say that I rode like an 'idiot' on Sunday. If I gave that impression to anyone then obviously I need to change my riding.
If you were 'riding like idiots', should you be on the road?
I'm not going to dignify such a retarded question with a sensible answer.
madness
09-09-09, 11:25 AM
I'm not going to dignify such a retarded question with a sensible answer.
Why is that a 'retarded' question.
I think we all agree that bikers who ride stupidly/like idiots shouldn't be on the road.
Just remember that it was you that stated that you had '10 days of riding like idiots'
I'm not going to get into an argument over it.
Dave20046
09-09-09, 11:25 AM
Some might say that I rode like an 'idiot' on Sunday. If I gave that impression to anyone then obviously I need to change my riding.
Everything looked fine on sunday mate :thumbsup:
merlin427
09-09-09, 11:26 AM
Some might say that I rode like an 'idiot' on Sunday. If I gave that impression to anyone then obviously I need to change my riding.
Were you riding like an idiot or just fast or breaking the law? Rebellion and motorcycles go hand in hand, always have done and always will do (I hope). Most road users and particularly motorcyclists ride above the speed limit on occasion, as long as you're prepared to 'do the time' if you get caught this is not idiotic, riding around a blind bend faster than the distance you can see (even within the prevailing limit) particularly where a junction has been signed is idiotic (to me at least). Even if you can blame the truck/car/bike driver who pulls out (which you can't) that won't stick your legs back on!
yorkie_chris
09-09-09, 11:27 AM
Some might say that I rode like an 'idiot' on Sunday. If I gave that impression to anyone then obviously I need to change my riding.
Nah bullocks.
If people thought you were riding like an idiot they need to change their perception. Only you know whether you were beyond your limits or not.
On Saturday, I rode like a girl. That definately needs to change back to normal lol.
Dave20046
09-09-09, 11:31 AM
Nah bullocks.
If people thought you were riding like an idiot they need to change their perception. Only you know whether you were beyond your limits or not.
On Saturday, I rode like a girl. That definately needs to change back to normal lol.
Agree with that, doesn't really matter about pace aslong as it's safe & in control. If you push yourself accidents happen. On Sunday right towards the end of the day I pushed on a bit trying to catch up with binky so I could record him over the 13 bends but I didn't go flat out I still let my hazard perception kick me, and I listened to it when I felt a pang. Damn lucky too because I slowed down just after an overtake past a house (on a fast road) in baslow to give me room to manouvre for a 'what if' situation and low and behold an estate ford or something reversed out the drive.
Definitely keep within your own limits.
I will hang my head in shame and say that I do overtake on double lines and some cross hatchings (situation dependant)
Define cross hatchings
Dave20046
09-09-09, 11:32 AM
Define cross hatchings
ones with a solid outer line you can't enter, right? I was taught to use hatchings where possible if it gets you out of a vulnerable road positioning
madness
09-09-09, 11:34 AM
Were you riding like an idiot or just fast or breaking the law? Rebellion and motorcycles go hand in hand, always have done and always will do (I hope). Most road users and particularly motorcyclists ride above the speed limit on occasion, as long as you're prepared to 'do the time' if you get caught this is not idiotic, riding around a blind bend faster than the distance you can see (even within the prevailing limit) particularly where a junction has been signed is idiotic (to me at least). Even if you can blame the truck/car/bike driver who pulls out (which you can't) that won't stick your legs back on!
If I use your statement to judge my riding, then yes, a couple of times on Sunday I was idiotic. It's very easy to fall into the trap of trying to keep up with better, more experienced riders.
Bluewolf
09-09-09, 11:41 AM
On Saturday, I rode like a girl. That definately needs to change back to normal lol.
Now why would you want to undo all that good progress..? ;):razz:
IrishRob
09-09-09, 11:48 AM
But to balance out the Bad biker image, we try and acknowledge other courteous road users and wave to kids in cars or watching from the pavement.
I try to do that to. I think it's really cool when approached by a parent with a child wanting to see your bike and try to be as obliging as possible.
The only place I'd even consider doing something other than the speed limit or below it is the motorway where there's far fewer things to appear out of nowhere and kill you.
I find motorways are more dangerous. On A-roads I have the option to dominate or to relent. On motorways I am just another spec getting in the way.
As for speed limits: 30/40 as per the majority, not unusual for me to be doing 20 in a busy 30 with no traffic about. 50 and 60 discretionary eg. there are 2 x 50s on my commute in and I normally slow down to 40 for the dangerous bits, even if there is no other traffic visible (possibly the most dangerous bit), 60 zones I tend to cruise at 80/90. Double whites - I tend not to overtake on them, but if one runs out unexpectedly then I will occassionally take the lesser of 2 evils and pin it rather than slam on the brakes and pull in between cars.
I try to be well mannered on the roads but if I have to be impolite to get someone's attention then I will, not shy and retiring about using the horn. Once they see me I am nice as pie.
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