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I'm a full time student at 37 after being made redundant and I feel very appreciative of the student support I get.
OK my grant is £2900 pa which i do not pay back.
If you want to save money you can now do a foundation degree for two years at a fraction of Uni fees then do a top up at full whack.
I don't know why some see this as a bum deal as I think we are well off but then again I'm not straight from school and being looked after by parents.
I disagree with the whinging going on totally.
Edit: what is weird is student finance is now based in Scotland and in Scotland higher education is free.
MisterTommyH
10-12-10, 12:01 AM
I agree it crappy for tomorrows students, but don't see a way around it. And all this violence and moaning isn't getting them any sympathy from the rest of the country.
Personally I don't think that my pension contributions will come back to me at all the way the systems going. Got to find another way to look after me when I'm older. Just got to figure out what it is.
Milky Bar Kid
10-12-10, 12:04 AM
.
Edit: what is weird is student finance is now based in Scotland and in Scotland higher education is free.
I wouldn't imagine it will be for much longer. The Scottish Exec are already looking at this and I imagine it won't be too long until similar is applied up here.
Sid Squid
10-12-10, 12:25 AM
what difference does it make if the Lib Dems are the party of Government or not? They said they wouldn't raise fees.
Getting elected is fundamental to their ability to deliver on their manifesto, they didn't get elected. They have no place in government except by agreement with the party that polled the greatest number, the Lib Dems are the junior partner in that agreement and therefore cannot dictate policy. At best in this case they may argue against the government's proposal, and seeing the numbers in the recent vote in seems that, in the main, they stood up for their unfortunately profligate promises.
And the Government acting shabbily. I would say that a near trebling of fees is shabby. It's irrelevant if the threshold for repayment is raised. What is relevant is the massive debt that kids will have to carry for many many years. Insofar as it will encourage people to choose their course wisely, then as I said above, that's no bad thing.
There's precisley nothing shabby about the government's actions, the bizarre notion that it's somehow 'right' and 'natural' that further education should be funded by others is plain wrong, and it's well well overdue that we start putting this right, we've had the thick end of forty years of very lucky people getting something they should have paid for themselves effectively for free, while all the time low earners have paid their tax money to fund the enhanced lifestyles of those who feel everything should be paid for by someone else.
That and the attitude that it should continue is shabby.
On other people paying for the reforms - well please explain why I should pay to train teachers in India. Or to develop clean burn fuel technology in China. Or to subsidise Sudanese farmers. I could go on and on and on, why is international development ring fenced, doesn't charity start at home?
I have no idea why and agree we shouldn't be doing so, we are in complete agreement.
Yes of course students do their courses to develop themselves. I did, back in 1982. But I have paid so much higher rate tax, paid a fortune in VAT that I've collected, and all the rest of it. I believe that the country has had value for money.
It's partly about commitment, like the bank asking you to put down a deposit while they provide the overwhelming amount of your mortgage money to buy a house. They need to know that you're serious and committed and as a provider of the outstanding amount of money a degree costs, ('cos as I'm sure you know, the suggested cost to students are no-where near the true cost of a degree), I do too.
For once I completely agree with Sid.
Are you feeling OK? Have I made no sense at all? :D
Something is very wrong, or possibly very right... I can't decide.
Whatever, today goes in the diary as a momentus event and the final proof that the lion may lay down with the lamb etc etc.* ;)
After this anything is possible!
Such as:
And me vote sid for P.M.
I couldn't make a worse job than the sorry, wasted, corrupt years between 1997 and 2010. Remember them? They're when student loans were introduced by the people who suddenly have a problem with them when there's a chance to whip up oppostion by goading a sizable body of selfish impressionable fools.
* I'm only kidding, honest.
What happened to the argument that in these fiscally trying times that the country needs a greater number of students coming through the ranks? In order to be able to take on those high earning places within the UK, and be able to make the UK a prosperous investment to the rest of the international community?
Surely that starts at the building blocks of education. I understand the points that perhaps the increase fees will make people think twice about the practical application of their chosen professions before taking a degree (and hopefully eradicate those underwater basket weaving courses out!).
To say that higher education is a privilege is perhaps correct in one sense however, I would argue that it is a privilege that will come at one hell of a cost; not just to the student’s pocket, but also to the longevity of the economics of the country.
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 01:01 AM
or god forbid, young people might need to get a part time job whilst at school and EARN some bloody money to help pay their way!
BTW the last bit of your post I agree with.
However, try get a job in a town with a large proportion of students where there are lots of people in the same circumstance looking for part time work. Hope you've got big tits aye.
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 01:03 AM
Surely that starts at the building blocks of education. I understand the points that perhaps the increase fees will make people think twice about the practical application of their chosen professions before taking a degree (and hopefully eradicate those underwater basket weaving courses out!).
Nah, will it hell.
I tell you what, I fancy getting drunk and laid for 3 years learning underwater organic basket weaving, but I'll never have to pay it back because nobody in their right mind is going to pay £21k+ for an underwater organic basket weaver!
Free money, woop!
I personally beleive that students should in some form pay for their education either in part or full. I like the idea of a graduate tax as put forward by the Student union. The reason I like this is that it is mo different from taxing benefits such as company cars, private medical care etc... What I am wholly against is student loans.
The whole premise of a loan is that interest will be charged on this loan. if the loan is over a long time then it is not unreasonable to think that nearly twice the amont of money loaned could be paid back over its lifetime. So simply math would show that for a 3 year £9000 course at £27,000 and living and rent adding say another £13,000 a student could end up with a loan of nearly £50,000. Going on the above this means over it's lifetime the gradute could be paying back in excess of £100,000. so for every student someone is making £50,000 and that just isnt right. My sums may be way off but it still stands that through loans rather than tax a private company is syphoning off profits.
My other issue with this is that with this is the fact that a lot of politicians are pushing the fact that non graduates shoudlnt be funding degress when they dont benefit. This is not a supportive society or the supposedly "big Society" as pushed by the tories. Where does this stop. I dont go to the doctors anywhere near as much as my neighbour, should I pay less? Not the society I want thanks.
This is in short commercialisation of the higher education system and in my opinion will change the face of higher education for the worse over the coming years.
My BSc hons has cost £6000 tuition fees low because the first two years was a foundation degree in college and there is no interest! my loan was £15000 and my grants a total of £8700 so it has cost me £6300 and thats the cheapest way I could find
£6300 is for my degree and my cost of living for the three years now that gives me nothing to whinge about!
The simple matter is the students are cheesed off because someone as done the maths.
I recon the country should take a leaf from Germanys book and get the doleys to work the ****ty jobs ie street cleaning.
thefallenangel
10-12-10, 02:27 AM
My work funded me through HNC and HND and now i've got a 2 year part time top up to Beng which they wouldn't put me through. So i've had to work the days but the government have kindly paid for my fees (£1300 for 2 years) and given me £1100 grant.
I don't see the £1100 grant as fair. I've used it for different things but taken it because i'm entitled to it.
The government have given me this on the basis i will pay it back and lots more in tax. I'm already paying hand over fist in tax at the minute for things like NHS which i don't use bar a trip to the dentist once a year for my free checkup.
The whole tax, pensions, benefits, student finance systems are all to pot. Labour has done it and the conservatives will "fix" it by being conservative. There's gonna be cut backs and the students while they need to take a hit but need to bring in some sort of way whether making part-time study so you need it to do your job or have to have 3 A levels grade B or above to enter a degree course then do it.
The thick are getting into powerful jobs within the world and it's not good.
I can't believe people are still falling for the illusion of the parties being different!
More interesting opinions. The only point I want to reply to is whether it's fair for others to pay for student education. It's a fair point but we have the same effect elesewhere in the economy. For example, the cost of healthcare for people who are obese, and from illness caused by elective lifestyles.
Should I pay for the cost of someone's gastric band op?
kaivalagi
10-12-10, 08:14 AM
Why can't education be free to students, but with a caveat, that only the degrees/courses that benefit society being catered for...Anyone building a career off of a "useful" degree will no doubt be well paid and will therefore pay higher levels of cash back into the system via taxs and NI contributions
So...I say get rid of all the bulls**t degrees, remove all costs from students for decent degree courses, maybe even bring industry into the funding mix and subsequent employment of well educated young people and you have a system that will allow for anyone who wants to work and do well regardless of background
Lets not forget though that Welsh and Scottish students have STILL got it easy with the costs...
timwilky
10-12-10, 08:17 AM
A graduate tax is very unfair, If you earn more, you pay more in tax in the first place. So surely it is in the governments best interest to have high earners out there. Who is to say a high earner is in place because of their degree or not.
Why can government not come clean, scrap the micky mouse degrees that 80% take and reinstate maintenance grants.
My kids have done their degrees. Michelle owes over 20 grand and only earns 15. at 27 years old she should be looking to be moving out, buying a place to live etc. No she is with us for the foreseeable.
I got a full grant as I was classed as self supporting. Government saw value to an educated workforce and encouraged people with ability into higher education. Employers saw value in cherry picking potential candidates by offering them sponsorship etc.
The problem in this country is that higher education has become the dumping ground for unemployed school leavers.
Everybody has a different definition of what a Mickey Mouse degree is though... that’s the issue.
I always considered Art and History to be Mickey Mouse degrees, I even have two friends that did those at Uni, one is now an Art Teacher, the other a History teacher... they have jobs and earn well above national average.
My girlfriend did Criminology, people said what’s the point... she is now Deputy Head of Fraud for a major bank, earns well above national average.
I did a safety and environmental management degree, another one that people say is Mickey Mouse, I've not been out of work yet and earn well above national average.
I have friends that have done Architecture, Building Surveying, Nursing and Law... none of them have jobs paying over £16k or relevant to their degrees.
(I'll point out I came through Uni with no debt at all, I didnt even apply for te student loans, my parents kindly paid the £1250 yearly fee which was the maximum at the time, and I had a part time job (20+ hours a week) for the entire duration so that I could get by)
I think there is a knock effect on applicants for jobs. out of 30 applicants only 1 didnt need a work visa. Most applicants are on education visas. A lot of applicants have a degree from overseas universities and topped up with a masters degree from the uk. If uk students already carry a big debt the cost of additional masters courses must seem prohibitive. Especially as there are no guarantees of a job at the end of it.
I like the Kazakhstan model where the government sends students to uk to get their masters with the student returning to work for 5 years back at home. Not rocket science but at least they see the benefits of investing in the future.
What degree did your nipper do TIM? That's half the problem usually. University generally costs the same for a degree with prospects and a degree with few prospects.
I don't have a problem paying tax so someone else can go to uni. However, as others have said, not for yoghurt knitting or underwater organic basket weaving.
I don't mind paying tax for someone to have a gastric band fitted.
Two things; where do you think the govt gets the money from to pay for everything... so lets continue to fund micky mouse policies, and totally screw the country. OR lets all pay 70% income tax and everyone can send the kids to uni. :rolleyes:
Get real. The country is broke, and making it more broke by spending what it hasn't got is a sure fire way of hurting every single one of us. :smt103
grimey121uk
10-12-10, 09:02 AM
I dont understand the fuss, at the moment most students leave uni with about 20k of debt, if they get a job an earn 21k they pay back around 35quid a month for a maximum of 25 years then its gone, if a student leaves uni with 1 million quid of debt and earn 21k they will still pay back 35quid a month for 25 years and then it written off, I bet hardly any current graduates will ever pay off their debt before it is written off 35quid a month for earning 21k wont even touch the interest on 20k of debt.
On another note regarding degrees being worthless, this is also the same for masters degrees, the only people i know doing a masters at the moment are people that did **** in their undergraduate degree in an attempt to mask that fact, the down side is a lot of employers are now only concerned on the grade of you undergraduate grade. so if you got a 3rd in your degree and a masters most employers don't want to know.
Britain cant be that broke funding a war and getting people killed.
Also think its funny that some of the highest earners dont even need to go to uni.. See mr rooney et al ( and Lord sugar :) )
****ing Students. Its about time they worked for their education. No one has the right to a degree, you have the right to free education untill 18 if going to a 6th form in school. Anything more you want it pay for it like most things in life.
I think its a good thing the increase in fees. It may be a back door way of stopping the rot in the higher education system , where by joe pikey decides to go and get a worthless degree in hymilayan pottery or any number of the pointless degrees out there, he wont be able to due to the fees.
Now this is not me saying only the rich should go , but it has put a barrier to entry efectivly that only the decent well educated decent kids who want to do a decent well respected degree will probably want to still go. Reasons, well its worth it in the long run to get into debt for a decent degree and chances are they are going to be from a decent working class/ midle class family who can help them afford the fees. All those who now just see uni as a right of passage and a drinking few years on pointnless degrees will now either seriously concider going due to the cost and do something else woth while, like a Apprenticeship or a more practical skilled job. I do think in the increase in fees there should be more funding avalible to help bring on a proper Aprenticeship in skilled industrys.
The red brick uni's must be jumping for joy, finally getting back to being only the best of the best and the decent people you would want to come from OxBridge, Durham, etc etc being firstly able to go due to the higher grades required and secondly being able to afford to go there.
Also Students have so much ****ing time off, get a sodding job to hep pay for your degree. My trade to do the top qualification which is a Honours in Telecommunications from Southampton Uni I go back to Blandford If i pass the enterence exam, do my FofS course in 18months full time. This is i believe a 3 year course for a normal student. That is still with 6 weeks leave a year and wed off for study day. This raises the point there is too much time off in all courses. When rather than having 3 month summer holidays and a few hours a day it can be halved by doing the course literally full time working hours.
So my last point is apply this principle to all courses, half the time, half the fees. Of course the students wont go for this as it means they cant stay in bed all day get up for 2 hours of lectures then go on the **** all night, instead they might actually have to do some work mon-fri evenings. oh god the horror!!
Typical student dossers.
Discraceful protest, led by thugs. Most of them haven't a clue what they are protesting about really.
Im so glad they've put the bill through. What next students? Set fire to buildings?
It doesn't even effect any of those students at the moment anyway.
Utter disgrace, and those who protest peacefully, fine, those who acted in the typical "we're owed everything in life becuase we've done nothing so far, but we're still owed everything, and if you don't give it im going to throw a paddy" student youthfull way.
Shamefull.
grimey121uk
10-12-10, 09:13 AM
Typical student dossers.
Discraceful protest, led by thugs. Most of them haven't a clue what they are protesting about really.
Im so glad they've put the bill through. What next students? Set fire to buildings?
It doesn't even effect any of those students at the moment anyway.
Utter disgrace, and those who protest peacefully, fine, those who acted in the typical "we're owed everything in life becuase we've done nothing so far, but we're still owed everything, and if you don't give it im going to throw a paddy" student youthfull way.
Shamefull.
If they were half decent students they would be to busy studying for their exams that are only a few weeks away
Typical student dossers.
Discraceful protest, led by thugs. Most of them haven't a clue what they are protesting about really.
Most of them probably arn't even students. :rolleyes: just out for a riot.
timwilky
10-12-10, 09:34 AM
What degree did your nipper do TIM? That's half the problem usually. University generally costs the same for a degree with prospects and a degree with few prospects.
she did an LLB in law and LLM in contract law. Whilst I paid for her accommodation costs, i could not also fund the course fees. Add on £8,000 for her bar vocational that she screwed up and decided she did not want to be a barrister and you get kids with one hell of a lot of debt. The LLM and BVC she had to fund herself through part time work etc. as no student loans for them.
So is law a micky mouse degree, well it guarantees you nothing in this world, the work is not out there and definitely a case of you need the experience to get the job.
Nice to think that these people are going to be our leaders and champions of industry in the future!
I live in a uni town with Derby, Nottingham and Leicester uni's within easy commuting distance. The town is so different when the students are on breaks.
I have to laugh yesterday when I saw some of the students holding anarchy signs. It reminded me of the punk days and the thought of Johnny Rotten selling blended butter now.
It is so sad to see a lot of these intelligent (sic) students thinking they are going to get any kind of jobs. In the last couple of years have had contact with 3 undergrads (All Grads now with a minimum of a 2.1) who have done some volunteering work for me. 2 have minimum wage jobs and one works for a bank. All have a science degree. What do the "We is a student, innit" people think they are going to do for work? They can't even speak English properly.
she did an LLB in law and LLM in contract law. Whilst I paid for her accommodation costs, i could not also fund the course fees. Add on £8,000 for her bar vocational that she screwed up and decided she did not want to be a barrister and you get kids with one hell of a lot of debt. The LLM and BVC she had to fund herself through part time work etc. as no student loans for them.
So is law a micky mouse degree, well it guarantees you nothing in this world, the work is not out there and definitely a case of you need the experience to get the job.
Law certainly isn't a mickey mouse degree, but it is notoriously challenging to get a job in that sector. Same as psychology...too many folk do it.
Graduate unemployment 6 months after leaving Uni was 8.2% in 2008.
The biggest group were IT graduates.
One thing that seems to have been lost in the mayhem is that EMA's will go from the end of this academic year. So, the financial support that enabled many students to stay on in education after the age of 16 is scrapped!
kaivalagi
10-12-10, 10:40 AM
I was out of work for 4 months when I left uni in 1997, I did an software engineering degree and a Master of Science...there was nothing worthwhile for me to get into initially...that was back then...not sure it's really all that different now compared to then, just stats are better presented
I heard some stats saying that 95% of students in education attributed by EMAs would still be there without...hence the EMAs not really being all that affective...not sure it's spin doctoring or is fairly honest?
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 10:48 AM
****ing Students. Its about time they worked for their education. No one has the right to a degree, you have the right to free education untill 18 if going to a 6th form in school. Anything more you want it pay for it like most things in life.
I think its a good thing the increase in fees. It may be a back door way of stopping the rot in the higher education system , where by joe pikey decides to go and get a worthless degree in hymilayan pottery or any number of the pointless degrees out there, he wont be able to due to the fees.
Nah it won't, Joe P will still never see the fees, they'll go direct from SLC to the uni. Imaginary numbers, which will never be "paid for" (except in the minds of the fine daily mail reading populace).
Now this is not me saying only the rich should go , but it has put a barrier to entry efectivly that only the decent well educated decent kids who want to do a decent well respected degree will probably want to still go. Reasons, well its worth it in the long run to get into debt for a decent degree and chances are they are going to be from a decent working class/ midle class family who can help them afford the fees. All those who now just see uni as a right of passage and a drinking few years on pointnless degrees will now either seriously concider going due to the cost and do something else woth while, like a Apprenticeship or a more practical skilled job. I do think in the increase in fees there should be more funding avalible to help bring on a proper Aprenticeship in skilled industrys.
Well you'd think so, but I disagree. The people who just want to go drinking will still be able to do it, but people who want a degree with some prospects may even be put off by the tax-f***ing they're going to get.
The wasters obviously not giving a damn as they will never earn enough to repay it.
I agree about apprenticeships, but where, pray tell, is the industry for all these people to work for? Sadly we don't make all the worlds machine tools any more to need an army of time served fitters and machinists.
The red brick uni's must be jumping for joy, finally getting back to being only the best of the best and the decent people you would want to come from OxBridge, Durham, etc etc being firstly able to go due to the higher grades required and secondly being able to afford to go there.
Oh yeah great! Load of snobs the only ones who can afford to go to ye olde uni.
Durham's a bloody fortune, my Brothers lass goes there, works at asda or something part time and is still scraping round compared to all the London w*****s Mummy and Daddy pay for.
Also Students have so much ****ing time off, get a sodding job to hep pay for your degree.
How many students in an average uni? 2000? You think there are enough businesses around offering part time jobs who really want the hassle of total staff turnaround every 3 years? Massive case of easier said than done there!
What are they going to do? Get a job in a bar? There won't be any students drinking enough to keep them open! :-P
Uni's, in my opinion should be completely free. But, they should only offer courses worth doing so that the living costs incurred during study are recouped in tax.
The problem is now that the balance between cost of learning and likelihood of earning has gone.
kaivalagi
10-12-10, 10:55 AM
Uni's, in my opinion should be completely free. But, they should only offer courses worth doing so that the living costs incurred during study are recouped in tax.
The problem is now that the balance between cost of learning and likelihood of earning has gone.
+1
timwilky
10-12-10, 11:02 AM
Maybe that is the issue, your local poly used to offer course based on what local industry/business required. Now as "universities" they have to offer degree courses based on attracting students from the whole country. These students very rarely stay in the area where they have been educated and fail to contribute beyond spending their beer vouchers locally.
thefallenangel
10-12-10, 11:17 AM
Apprenticeships are hard to come by. A friend of mine was made redundant at the end of his 2nd year and the training school got him another one who let him go at the end of his time.
This country is royally screwed. We've spent too long trying to help other countries rather than letting them have revoultions like we had to 200 years ago.
If this government had half ounce of sense we would be having apprentices learning to machine gearboxes for wind turbines and chucking them up and telling the nigerians, saudis and russians to shove their oil and gas up their a**.
Don't think my bike will run on wind power.
benji106
10-12-10, 11:27 AM
The way I looked at it when it came to decide whether or not to go to uni was "will going to uni significantly improve my career prospects and earning potential in the proffession that I want to pursue?" the answer I came up with was no, not really. So I went out and got a job. The problem was when I made this desicion all I got from college teachers was "If you dont go to uni you will end up working on a checkout" Bull****.
If the costs of uni go up it is just changes the equation slightly as to whether or not it is worth going to uni. as far as Im concerned the idiots that go and get a degree in doily making or pickle slicing are wasting their ****ing money in the first place. "I have to go to uni because thats what you do next" seems to be the thinking of a lot of students now a days, and to be fair its encouraged by schools and the government.
If I want to go and learn to fly a plane because I want to be a pilot then I accept that that is going to cost me a considerable sum of money, its not your 'right' to go to university and study to be a lawyer/doctor whatever any more than it is my 'right' to learn to fly.
If this government had half ounce of sense we would be having apprentices learning to machine gearboxes for wind turbines and chucking them up
They are already, although gearboxes will be defunct in a couple of years with the introdcution of direct drive turbines, theres plenty of other stuff they are being taught though, mechanical, electrical, commisioning, service technicians etc
Don't think my bike will run on wind power.
It might do in a few years though... and your house almost certainly will be lol
Also Students have so much ****ing time off, get a sodding job to hep pay for your degree. My trade to do the top qualification which is a Honours in Telecommunications from Southampton Uni I go back to Blandford If i pass the enterence exam, do my FofS course in 18months full time. This is i believe a 3 year course for a normal student. That is still with 6 weeks leave a year and wed off for study day. This raises the point there is too much time off in all courses. When rather than having 3 month summer holidays and a few hours a day it can be halved by doing the course literally full time working hours.
Simply not true of all degrees. My degree was full time with half days on Wednesdays. We were expected to put in two hours at home for every hour in university.
The funding I received although full wack of what student loans had to offer was simply not enough to support me. I worked my backside off to be there in and out of university, and then worked to make up the shortfall of money that I required to support myself (I.e. rent and food, not pub and beer!)
I probably would have come out with a first, if I had been able to dedicate the amount of time that I had to work to fund my degree to my studies. Those that have parents, who are able to help out, obviously have an advantage, but the system is in place to help those that are less fortunate.
Had it not been for extra scholarships and bursaries I was awarded during my studies I certainly would not have been able to finish my degree.
So what you are stating means that for those hard working students, you would be taking away all of their tools to be able to get an education at all. Effectively saying that only the rich should go to university, and hence run your country.
BTW it seems very strongly that the discussions here are being had between those that went to university and those that didn’t.
Proactive, dedicated students are few and far between, which is why working folk don't really respect them. Half of the full-timers on my course don't even feel the need to turn up.
Biker Biggles
10-12-10, 12:25 PM
Having seen some of the mayhem in London yesterday caused by a load of angry schoolkids and a few others I reckon you aint seen nothing yet.
Wait till the adult population gets angry when our great leaders start knocking them for the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.
I can see large parts of central London becoming a no go area when this turns nasty.
P1ssing off the police could be a cardinal error for the government.I wonder how long it will take them to realize that?
This certainly isn't the end of it. Yesterday was simply the debate and vote on the fees. There's a lot of the other stuff yet to come, for example the scholarship scheme. Also none of this has yet gone to the House of Lords. So lots more opportunities for all these violent thugs to smash up central London and other cities and to intimidate people who have nothing to do with the issue. These wanchors are a cancer in our society. Haven't seen the NUS disclaiming them though.
I occasionally read the news on CNN, and there it was, splashed all across the front page on the US edition last night. Whatever must foreigners think of us.
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 12:49 PM
I occasionally read the news on CNN, and there it was, splashed all across the front page on the US edition last night. Whatever must foreigners think of us.
Who the hell cares TBH.
Johnny Foreigner have their own share of idiots who like a riot, how many cars get burnt out in Paris every time the French government do anything? And that isn't even central paris, the savages attack private property rather than the city center. The US has lots of peaceful anti-war protesters bent on violence every time there is a small nation to have some friendly fire incidents in.
Biker Biggles
10-12-10, 12:52 PM
Quite so,but I was thinking more about the next round of issues.Im not sure a democratic system can survive in a failed economy with huge cuts and the falling living standards that inevitably follow.Reading a bit of history leads me to Germany in the 1930s.You only have to read some opinions on this site and many other places to see how close we are to slipping into something similar.
BB you are right about popular discontent.
But more protests??? We're British!!!!
Oh... hang on a sec - so are these 'students'.....
Filipe M.
10-12-10, 01:01 PM
Whatever must foreigners think of us.
Do you really want to know? :smt039 *runs* :D
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/10/student-operation-tuition-fees-protest
"Alfie, a second-year philosophy student at Middlesex University..."
What job is he going to get with that?
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 01:25 PM
These wanchors are a cancer in our society. Haven't seen the NUS disclaiming them though.
...
"We have consistently worked with the police to try to ensure the safety of protesters and the public at demonstrations. Violent demonstration is deplorable and counter-productive. We will continue to condemn it in the strongest possible way."
Something like 60%+ of jobs advertised as 'Graduate' do not specify the subject of the degree
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 01:28 PM
I can't see many of the engineering jobs I'm looking for having a second glance if I was qualified in rural arts and pottery design...
I agree though, a lot of it is just the proof that you can work up to a certain standard. Though the argument still stands that half of these knit your own organic yoghurt tree hugging degrees aren't worth bugger all.
Something like 60%+ of jobs advertised as 'Graduate' do not specify the subject of the degree
Must be a lot of telesales manager roles or something then. Every graduate or above job within my company (probably in excess of 45,000 employees) generally requires named degrees.
If you go onto Milkround which is a fairly big graduate site the vast majoirty of jobs are 'graduate schemes' working in sales roles. Where they are after 'Graduate Calibre' people as its supposed to mean something. The problem is with so many numskulls going to uni 'Graduate Calibre' means nothing anymore... and a lot of course are way to easy with people being spoon fed just so the uni figures look great.
dizzyblonde
10-12-10, 01:38 PM
Now this is not me saying only the rich should go[/COLOR] , but it has put a barrier to entry efectivly that only the decent well educated decent kids who want to do a decent well respected degree will probably want to still go. Reasons, well its worth it in the long run to get into debt for a decent degree and chances are they are going to be from a decent working class/ midle class family who can help them afford the fees.
!
Firstly, I'm glad you said that first, as I am very aware those with 'money' nine times of ten are complete to$$bags, this from the mouth of a public school boy(with no money), whose parents are retired teachers in a public school.
Those with 'money' are more inclined to be those that sit in the pub being pi$$ed over studying, sit around being lazy bums, as they are feeling rather rebellious whilst spending all mummy and daddies money peeing against a wall, along with coke, weed and other such things. All while mummy and daddy think they are getting a 'decent' education for their child paid for by them!
So what do you describe as the word 'decent'? Theres a lot more worthy folk that deserve a good education, than a mummy/daddy spoilt brat from a 'decent' middle/working class family.
BTW, what is wrong with a degree in Pottery? I'll have you know there are some 'decent' people who have spent time studying Ceramics, to give you the correct title.:rolleyes:
Biker Biggles
10-12-10, 01:55 PM
I dont really buy into this notion that getting more and more people with higher qualifications will save our economy.There is no shortage of highly qualified people spilling out of Indian and Chinese education establishments.The difference is they will do the jobs in India or China for a quarter of the salary or less.Just like traditional jobs here,graduate jobs can and are being exported to the developing world.
Take Glaxo.They exported their research department from here to the Far East and sacked all their most highly qualified research chemists,(Phds and Masters mostly)replacing them with cheaper versions of the same out there.I know one who now does a manual job because no one wants a highly qualified chemist here in UK.Where does it end?Big trouble thats where.
andrewsmith
10-12-10, 02:38 PM
Something like 60%+ of jobs advertised as 'Graduate' do not specify the subject of the degree
There is a lot of that around!
One property firm (I won't name for legal reasons[I'll be done for slander]) claims to be able to get a Graduate with a non-related degree (i.e. English) to MRICS (fully chartered) with a MSc/MA to boot in two years.
It is not possible to learn my the whole of my field in two years (even practicing). It takes a Graduate in my field 2 years to become chartered plus 4 years of Study
Dicky Ticker
10-12-10, 02:57 PM
After watching the riots on the news and various other sources I dread to think that they exemplify the up and coming generation. I can not even work out what they are complaining about when you actually read the new proposals.
Something for nothing in a time of economic restraint and low employment opportunities just does not equate. Not all uni's are putting fees up and if they were so adamant about education they can always live at home and do open university.Perhaps the parents don't want them hanging around the house doing a degree that is of no practical use in real life,knowing that earning a living from it is very likely to be non existent.
If the employment situation is as bad as it appears perhaps they would be better finding a job in the field they are interested in and progressing through further education and practical application.
Goodness knows how many young people I know who have gained degrees and can't find employment in their chosen field and are currently employed doing any job they can get.
Do we need two threads? :S
It's simple. The riotous bunch of people wandering around London and elsewhere do not exemplify the up and coming generation.
Spoken as somebody of university age who is disgusted by their behaviour.
hindle8907
10-12-10, 03:13 PM
lets have a poll.
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 03:16 PM
It's simple. The riotous bunch of people wandering around London and elsewhere do not exemplify the up and coming generation.
Spoken as somebody of university age who is disgusted by their behaviour.
I would add that the vast majority are there protesting the changes because they don't agree with them, as is their democratic right and only a small minority are "riotous".
Drew Carey
10-12-10, 03:18 PM
Personally, I wish they had bought in higher fees when I was at uni all those years ago....because if they had, I would probably not have bothered going, wouldn't have all the debt I racked up and would still be in the same job probably.
I didn't complete my degree, in fact managed so few lectures it was a record for my course!!!!
For me personally I am a great believer that when peeps leave school, they will either do well or won't....uni won't make "that" much difference.....with the exception of highly skilled jobs such as engineers / doctors etc.
Like people have said above....times are hard....so people need to learn that life has changed and that things are not what they once were.
davepreston
10-12-10, 03:19 PM
i would add you can start mouthing when youve paid me my tax money back yc you robbing git :)
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 03:23 PM
You've had more than my share of your taxes back in bike workings-on :-P
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 03:25 PM
BTW, what is wrong with a degree in Pottery? I'll have you know there are some 'decent' people who have spent time studying Ceramics, to give you the correct title.:rolleyes:
It's a BA?
If you wanted to develop a process to make ceramics industrially you'd do process engineering or something.
Being a potter is more of a time served thing, hardly a profession.
Did everyone miss the point that cleggy made the pledge to oppose any tuition fee rise and then capitulate at the first ask ? This is what annoys me more that they lie to get in power and expect people to be ok when they do the opposite? If someone lied to get a job and was found out later I'm sure they'd be fired.
Now what would the coalition do if cleggy received a vote of no confidence? Now that would be interesting. We live in society with freedom of speech ( you wouldnt believe it with wiki leaks).
So students go ahead and speak porperly so we can understand what yous are going on a bout :confused:
hindle8907
10-12-10, 03:32 PM
^^ can i have a form please
I've merged the two threads to make the topic easier to keep up with, as people clearly have a lot to say on this!
This is what annoys me more that they lie to get in power and expect people to be ok when they do the opposite?
Did you miss the point where 'clegy' didn't actually get into power, they didnt have a majority... the conservatives did, they then chose to back the conservative.
Given a chance to oppose tuition fees I believe cleggy and co voted with the ayes to the left :) Altho the nose to the right were a close second
Pookie, you need to read a few pages back, I agree with you but others think that as they weren't in power - ie with an outright majority - that they don't have to keep their promises.
MisterTommyH
10-12-10, 03:57 PM
Not necessarily that they don't have to.... Rather that sticking to this one promise would screew up their best chance to actually make progress on their more long term aim of voting reform.
yorkie_chris
10-12-10, 03:59 PM
Fact is they have been heavily seeking the student vote for a long time and now they are seen as breaking their word about probably the most important pledge they made. (to that group)
If I was still a student, I would have probaly voted for them to be fair... I would probably be tearing it up with all the other students too lol .
I'm with Pookie and Ed on this one. People voted for Lib Dem's based on their manifesto, and not for a watered down Conservative govt. Yes, its a coalition but that doesn't mean both parties have to sell out on their main manifesto pledges.
However, until both the Conservatives and the Lib Dem's saw the books did they really know what they could do? And maybe having seen the books/mess they have little choice.
Rather than argue the toss about what should happen, have a Google on the budget deficit against GDP. Just like when you get your wage packet you have a certain amount of money, and you can enhance that by borrowing from the banks. But you have to be able to service that debt. If you don't, the banks come a calling and you lose your credit rating alla Greece & Ireland.
I agree there should be freedom of speech but don't confuse that with the abuse of it, and associated vandalism on view recently.
Who the hell cares TBH.
Johnny Foreigner have their own share of idiots who like a riot, how many cars get burnt out in Paris every time the French government do anything? And that isn't even central paris, the savages attack private property rather than the city center. The US has lots of peaceful anti-war protesters bent on violence every time there is a small nation to have some friendly fire incidents in.
International investors care! France has lost a lot of business because people refuse to hold their business´s in a country that is fraught with strikes and riots that will disrupt their business operations.
So whilst you say who cares... you should, the markets and business opportunities that we need to nurture to get the economy out of the doom and gloom.
I dont really buy into this notion that getting more and more people with higher qualifications will save our economy.There is no shortage of highly qualified people spilling out of Indian and Chinese education establishments.
Point taken, however, this will change in the next few years when they have got all of our business´s exported and run from their country, and then demand higher wages because of their expertise.
It also could be said that the reason why China and India gets so many of our computer industry being exported to them, is because so many of them are educated within these fields. Without the education that the masses over there have they would not have been able to increase the growth of their country.
Aren't Charlie boy and dog faced Camila too old to go on student rioting or did their PR people think it would make them more "hip". Even went by Rolls Royce I hear!
Aren't Charlie boy and dog faced Camila too old to go on student rioting or did their PR people think it would make them more "hip". Even went by Rolls Royce I hear!
You have to wonder who the **** thought that was a good idea... 'I know dear, let take a detour through that rable to see what all the fuss is about, we'll take the armoured £750k Roll Royce just incase' :rolleyes:
MisterTommyH
10-12-10, 04:51 PM
You have to wonder who the **** thought that was a good idea... 'I know dear, let take a detour through that rable to see what all the fuss is about, we'll take the armoured £750k Roll Royce just incase' :rolleyes:
I think thats a very good argument against all those saying that the Police were the ones causing the trouble and making the students be violent by kettling.
From what I've seen this happened in an area where the protesters were not kettled, there were many members of the public and there were not yet many police. Yes they still attacked a car with Royals in it and chanted off with their heads. Very original!
They can blame it on who they want if it makes them feel better, but the majority of society will see through that argument and have little sympathy.
I have looked into this and can confirm that it was Police brutality that led this androgenous intellectual (Mr Gilmour who climbed the cenotaph) who carries the hopes and dreams of this nation on his/her shoulders to do a bit of gymnastics on the Cenotaph.
Police brutality was in fact responsible for everything because as we all know the Police enjoy going out having stuff thrown at them and being hospitalised. What the Police cannot stand is staying in their nice warm stations drinking tea.
:cyclops:
I would add that the vast majority are there protesting the changes because they don't agree with them, as is their democratic right and only a small minority are "riotous".
Yes, and my comment was aimed specifically at the faction that were causing trouble, not the vast majority taking part in a peaceful protest.
BTW, what is wrong with a degree in Pottery? I'll have you know there are some 'decent' people who have spent time studying Ceramics, to give you the correct title.:rolleyes:
That is a joke right??? seriously, somebody tell me thats a joke.
Biker Biggles
10-12-10, 09:48 PM
Moot point about all this talk of mickey mouse degrees and how we should put a stop to them,but if you look at the people who hold the top jobs in this country most of them did degees in stuff like history,classics,philosophy,english,sociology and psychology.I seem to recall Thatcher did chemistry but never worked in a related job.So we can all pontificate about who should be allowed to do what degree,but its all so much hot air.Me?Im going to do a belated course in talking bullsh1t.Then Ill add my thesis to this thread.
BB, on reflection I'd say keep the Mickey Mouse degrees. Just ask people to pay more towards them.
Why not heavily subsidise the the perceived 'top' degrees, and the yoghurt knitting/underwater organic basket weaving have more of a personal contribution. That way the important degrees would still receive support, and the others would need a considered choice and commitment by those that fancy doing them.
Bluefish
10-12-10, 10:09 PM
Simply not true of all degrees. My degree was full time with half days on Wednesdays. We were expected to put in two hours at home for every hour in university.
So 8hrs a day at uni and then 16hrs studying at home, now that's a proper course, reminds me of, when i were a lad etc
Bluefish
10-12-10, 10:11 PM
BTW it seems very strongly that the discussions here are being had between those that went to university and those that didn’t.
You mean those that went to uni, and those that paid for you to go.
MisterTommyH
10-12-10, 10:26 PM
BTW it seems very strongly that the discussions here are being had between those that went to university and those that didn’t.
You mean those that went to uni, and those that paid for you to go.
There are others here too!
(Went to uni at 18, realised within weeks it wasn't for me and got out before the cut off for the payment of fees. Then got a job and eventually did a degree part-time on day release. No debt, no loans, fees paid by my employers, earning a wage right through the course and earning a wealth of experiance in the industry that I could never have for from uni alone).
You mean those that went to uni, and those that paid for you to go.
As has been said earlier in this thread you also pay a contribution to the NHS and police, for others to use and abuse, would you rather not contribute to your country at all then, ie everything you earn goes into your pocket.
We have no problem in paying for education up until 16 so why the difference of attitude to those that wish to continue education. An education which in fact they do pay for three fold. (the loan, the interest and then the higher tax!)
You also had the same choices as everyone else, to go to university or to go to work.
There are others here too!
(Went to uni at 18, realised within weeks it wasn't for me and got out before the cut off for the payment of fees. Then got a job and eventually did a degree part-time on day release. No debt, no loans, fees paid by my employers, earning a wage right through the course and earning a wealth of experiance in the industry that I could never have for from uni alone).
Sililar to me. Did not go to uni but worked and got a pocket full of qualifications funded by companies I worked for. This included post grad qualifications. Had the chance to go on and do an MBA but I couldn't be ar5ed. By that time I had learnt that personality traits, a certain amount of intelligence, ability and experience was more beneficial than showing people I could pass a test. I have worked with a lot of people, grads and not, and there is no correlation to education and the ability to do a good job.
Bring back the birch.
dizzyblonde
11-12-10, 10:06 AM
That is a joke right??? seriously, somebody tell me thats a joke.
Not all people who study a degree in the Arts are unwashed hippies you know! I know of one lady who studied Textiles and Ceramics who is a graphic designer and childrens book illustrator, and doesn't wear hemp clothing and smell of cat wee. I should imagine our very talented Graphic Designer Zunkus studied an Art degree too. My brother is also a qualified designer too.
I studied Ceramics, but children got in the way. You may think a degree in the Arts is spent with very little studying, but you'd be far wrong. If you study well, there is more work to be done away from Uni than when you are there, sometimes much much more work than an Academic one. You learn about History and many things intertwined within an Arts degree. Its not all about reading text books, copying and rewriting others work you know:rolleyes:
BTW I don't know how to knit yoghurt under water, but I can design you a very nice tattoo, or maybe a giant urn for your pot plants;)
yorkie_chris
11-12-10, 10:11 AM
BTW I don't know how to knit yoghurt under water, but I can design you a very nice tattoo, or maybe a giant urn for your pot plants;)
What's that got to do with the price of eggs? (or insert unwashed goddamn pinko commie vegan substitute)
You can do that but you never got an art degree, our lass can do pencil drawings which I think are brilliant and seem to go down pretty well with everyone else too... she hasn't got an art degree either.
Going and doing some artsy degree does not equal having talent.
I can see where at art degree may be useful if you want to teach art, or buy and sell art.
Specialone
11-12-10, 10:11 AM
My only problem with making uni fees low or free is there are some people who are serial students, ie jump from one course to another and never actually seek high paid work/ work so that they never have debt anyway.
My only problem with making uni fees low or free is there are some people who are serial students, ie jump from one course to another and never actually seek high paid work/ work so that they never have debt anyway.
Academics. Now they are a special breed. Why work when you can get 45 years of grants.
yorkie_chris
11-12-10, 10:27 AM
Academics. Now they are a special breed. Why work when you can get 45 years of grants.
In their defence I've known a few of them quite well and a lot do hours that "real working people" (lol), would be up in arms about.
And the grant of money toward research is massively important.
In my present contract, I work with some research scientists in the cancer field. I may be involved with moving them to a different site. Not them, I was talking about the ones that go to a red brick uni and then stay there to "study" until they retire.
kaivalagi
11-12-10, 10:45 AM
As a side note not all students are just having fun and jumping from course to course for the easy life. Some students do have to work hard, even for your standard Bachelors degree. My engineering degree had me in lectures and labs for almost 40 hrs a week and then there was the project work and study on top of that...my masters was more harder work but had me doing less hours...being a out and out geek I loved spending the time on that stuff though...especially doing robotics projects :)
dizzyblonde
11-12-10, 10:47 AM
Going and doing some artsy degree does not equal having talent.
I can see where at art degree may be useful if you want to teach art, or buy and sell art.
Yes, assaid I never finished.
And yes again, I did it as I wanted to teach art, and or go into theatre as a Set and Costume designer. You don't need a degree to buy and sell art, as Maria shows.
I was merely pointing out to Nieo, its not all about academic qualifications, theres no need to be snobby about how you aquire an education, and indeed what conforms as 'decent folk' or 'decent degree'
For most it shows you actually have a brain and want to do something in your life. Not to disrespect MissYC or anyone else, but what can she do with Zoology? She has studied long and very hard, but has yet to find work in whatever it is that she has done. You yourself have studied long and hard in Engineering, you don't have to tell me how brain tiring that one is, but again, you are yet to find a job. So they are no different to anything in the Arts.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you wish to study, it shouldn't be put out of your grasp by astonishing fees. Nor should it be tied into 'free school meals', to gain grants, as I heard on the news this morning. That one is another that puts studying out of reach for those not poor enough, or indeed rich enough.
If my children were of school leaving age right now, they'd have no chance, as we fit into neither category, which means our kids wouldn't get a chance of bettering themselves, we couldn't afford to pay.....and as I have a little scientist/mathemetician on the go, I really think its a shame.
Just thinking about this. A good example for me is Mark Evans. Spent years at uni and beyond becoming a vet, got fed up sticking his arm up where arm's shouldn't go then started the "..... is born" TV series'.
jamesterror
11-12-10, 11:14 AM
As a side note not all students are just having fun and jumping from course to course for the easy life. Some students do have to work hard, even for your standard Bachelors degree. My engineering degree had me in lectures and labs for almost 40 hrs a week and then there was the project work and study on top of that...my masters was more harder work but had me doing less hours...being a out and out geek I loved spending the time on that stuff though...especially doing robotics projects :)
.. Even though I only do 12 hours a week I try to class myself as hard working and not free riding the tax player!
In light of the protests, petitions haven't changed anything, nor has violent protests so it doesn't matter what people do it won't make a difference.
I think it'll reduce the people that doss going to uni, as said by a few previous posts academics who degree hop, my only defence against the rise in fees is for degrees of medicine as my brother wants to be a doctor and believe his course is 7 years or so which is a significant amount of debt to accumulate for somebody who's intention is to be a first hand practician doctor. Nevertheless, it's what he wants to do and has said a price tag for doing what he wants to do won't put him off it.
.. my only defence against the rise in fees is for degrees of medicine as my brother wants to be a doctor and believe his course is 7 years or so which is a significant amount of debt to accumulate for somebody who's intention is to be a first hand practician doctor. Nevertheless, it's what he wants to do and has said a price tag for doing what he wants to do won't put him off it.
...with an NHS contract GPs get over £100K a year...
MisterTommyH
11-12-10, 11:33 AM
You can't say that all arts degrees are 'mickey mouse' as they many have been around for a long time and produced many graduates who have done well and contributed to society. However there has been a rise in degrees catering to people who wouldn't usually have attended and an increase in places on some courses which vastly outnumber the potenial number of jobs, both across the arts and the sciences.
For example media studies has exploded in the number of students recently, and although we have a large, growing media sector it is not big enough to employ all these graduates. Another course is forensic sciences, made popular by programs like CSI, there are actually very few people work in this industry and almost no new jobs available. However it is offered because it is popular, gets bums on seats and generates income for the uni.
I think it's almost un-ethical for unis to run these courses and raise students hopes when they know there isn't a cat in helps chance they'll ever get a related job.
Biker Biggles
11-12-10, 11:52 AM
Yes but a "classics" degree from Cambridge is of absolutely no relevance to any job known to man,but you would be surprised how many top civil servants politician and executives have one.
Apart from the very job specific degrees like medicine nursing and law most degrees are generic and dont specifically qualify you for anything except an interview for a "graduate level"job.
So unmderwater knitting or media studies are both fine for that.
The cambridge classics degree gets you into the right g0lf club though.
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