View Full Version : Student protests in Westminster LIVE right now!
metalangel
10-11-10, 03:08 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822
There have been clashes between demonstrators and police in London, as students and lecturers protest against plans to treble tuition fees and cut university funding in England.
Protestors have broken into the building housing the Conservative Party headquarters in Westminster.
They have set fire to placards outside.
The news just quickly had to cut away from a placard showing Cameron bumming Clegg! :D
What do you reckon?
Brings back memories of protests in Manchester when I was a student there in 1984 - about plans to cut grants. Yes those were the days when they actually gave you £££ and there were no fees. It was all peaceful, no violence that i recall. Trashing property is not helpful to their cause.
On the wider issue, I think the Government is acting disgracefully. They recouped the cost of my higher education many times through all the higher rate tax I paid.
Much better to control cost by reducing the number of places and ensuring excellence in every university. The previous Govt wanted pretty well everyone to get a degree, I think that students are misled and badly advised - a degree is not a guaranteed path to a good job.
tigersaw
10-11-10, 03:27 PM
So its not a school day I take it?
The news just quickly had to cut away from a placard showing Cameron bumming Clegg! :D
What do you reckon?
I reckon that may be mine and drew's step niece! :rolleyes:
metalangel
10-11-10, 04:03 PM
http://www.vizartwork.co.uk/ekmps/shops/vizartwork/images/cimg0301%5Bekm%5D225x300%5Bekm%5D.jpg
http://www.vizartwork.co.uk/ekmps/shops/vizartwork/images/cimg0301%5Bekm%5D225x300%5Bekm%5D.jpg
You've jsut paid off your student loan(s)
Biker Biggles
10-11-10, 04:34 PM
Never had so much fun since the Poll Tax.
NEXT!
And NO you lot can't come to Scotland and take all our FREE tution free places.
454697819
10-11-10, 05:24 PM
just be grateful they are poor students and cant afford petrol
Drew Carey
10-11-10, 05:29 PM
Bunch of tax dodgers!!!! :D
In all seriousness like Ed says the violence really won't help. Will probably find there has been ringers in there. As 99% of students I've known were either quite sensible or too stoned to do stuff like that.
Shame really, a full peaceful protest with the threat to Lib Dems on the vote thingy would have had quite a good impact. Govt under estimates the fact that when students are cheesed off they have (or most do) the intelligence to vote and fight things.
husky03
10-11-10, 05:36 PM
find it self defeating that these peaceful protests end up with property being damaged and public disorder-never a good way to get joe public on your side
MisterTommyH
10-11-10, 05:37 PM
On the wider issue, I think the Government is acting disgracefully. They recouped the cost of my higher education many times through all the higher rate tax I paid.
Trouble is that a lot of todays University Students will never pay the higher rate tax (if the even pay any).
The last lots "everyone should go to uni" scheme means that there is huge competition for every graduate job so many of them will go to jobs that don't require degrees (not that that means they won't earn good money, but there's a link there somewhere).
Plus a lot of them are doing degrees that just aren't applicable to more than a handful of jobs.
Jamesy D
10-11-10, 05:38 PM
Bloody students...
Dave20046
10-11-10, 05:42 PM
twazzocks
yorkie_chris
10-11-10, 05:45 PM
just be grateful they are poor students and cant afford petrol
Never know if they have a whip round they might be able to afford a gallon or so between them, I wouldn't get my hopes up though...
Plus a lot of them are doing degrees that just aren't applicable to more than a handful of jobs.
Or degrees in wacky stuff that's of no use. Get rid of all the yoghurt knitting degrees, that may help.
Also, dare I say it but some uni's should really rethink their management. Maybe academics aren't the best people to run multi-million pound businesses.
i think university's should have tough entrance exams. the amount of complete thickos that were there when i attended was unbelievable. those that pass the entrance exams should get free education but pay 2% on top of their wage (for life) to pay for future students.
jeeeez i was in a remedial class at school but they still let me in at uni, what does that say. before you say it yes i'm thick but not half as bad as some of the students i encountered.
Bloody students...
I concour..
More fee's means less uni dossers and might actually make their degree's worth something.
timwilky
10-11-10, 07:08 PM
I am the product of a society and time were an educated workforce was wanted and valued. I received a full grant, sponsorship, proper vacation employment and use of my employers labs/ computers that were light years ahead of the universities.
I am also the father of a kid that has done a LLB and LLM in law and cannot get a decent job.
I am therefore disgusted that students will be expected to pay £6-9,000/year for a degree that will leave them with a lifetime debt that many will never get to pay off. This is socially divisive. Only the children of the rich will be able to afford higher education. I paid for my daughters university, I did not want her stuck with debt at a time she may be thinking about marriage/children etc. I could afford that, but it hurt. Middle class parents are again being targeted as they will be the ones who end up paying. Thank god only one of my three kids went.
So strangely enough, I support the students protesting. I think the Brown report got it wrong. Unfortunately government has been getting it wrong for decades. We encourage school leavers into further/higher education and issue dumbed down qualification in meaningless subjects as a way of delaying the inevitable when the poor student joins the dole queue. Thus devaluing the attainment of a proper degree earned through hard work, study and application. So government wants huge number of kids in higher education, but admits they cannot afford it. They want people to work longer slowing down the rate of vacancies on the lower rungs of corporate ladders etc. that the graduates are trying to climb onto.
So students protest loud and be heard. But the stupid antics of wrecking the conservative party offices etc are way out of line and do you no favours.
Dave20046
10-11-10, 07:26 PM
Knowing a good number of today's students, most who are doing a mickey mouse degree, on their 3rd 'first' year or simply just took out the maximum amount of loan possible to have a bit of fun with/do up the house with...and then also knowing that around 10% of every £1 of student debt is subsidised by the tax payer I find it a little rich.
Not saying they should be paying the inflated fees, but something should be done to generally re-jig it so it benefits both the country and the individuals/students ...and weeds out the wasters.
metalangel
10-11-10, 07:32 PM
I did a Mickey Mouse degree in Journalism a decade ago and it was a complete waste of time and money. I support going to university - IF it will be to do something useful or to get the knowledge needed for a specific profession. Going for a three year ****up and shagfest is quite another thing.
Like Ed, and most others back then, I got the full £££ and think its a crying shame that the students of today end up with the millstone of debt.
By all means increase my tax by a couple of % to help pay for them, and a better NHS.
As to the violence and destruction, it shouldn't happen we're British. Yet not too long ago some were praising the French for having the ba!!s to stand up for their rights.
Micky Mouse degrees; if that's what they want to do then let them. Its called freedom of choice, and what we all would 'fight' for. And in truth, many of today's youngsters know they are Micky Mouse degrees but they are hooked on going to uni.
yorkie_chris
10-11-10, 08:34 PM
but they are hooked on going to uni.
I'm not surprised... it is actually brilliant.
Though that's probably not helpful or relevant :cyclops:
MisterTommyH
10-11-10, 09:00 PM
Perfect pubishment for those convicted of violence after today - barred from all UK universities for 10 years. No cost to the tax payer for prison or probation, and it'll hit them where it hurts.
I disagree that people should be allowed to attend mickey mouse courses. Uni isn't just a life experience (but if you go it will be) it should be about a need. You get help if you do a subject society needs, do something with no jobs or prospects and expect to fund it yourself.
If we return to the days when a low percentage of people attended uni then we could go back to grants.
missyburd
10-11-10, 09:34 PM
Problem now is students at A-level stage tend not to have any idea of what they want to do and if they have no backup from folks at home or teachers they just go for what they think will be doss. Why go immediately into work when you could spend 3 or 4 years having "the time of your life" in pubs and clubs? The point of uni has shifted somewhat, it's apparently about having a good time and scraping through as opposed to making a huge step in life and boosting your career tenfold...or that might have something to do with the now extremely low chance of it boosting your career as you are very unlikely to get a job...gah.
I often wonder if me going to uni was a good move. Yes I loved it, made great contacts and made the most of my time there volunteering and such. But so many of the folks I was there with just took the p*ss and I remember thinking why waste all that cash? Not had to pay proper tax and billls yet, ah ok lets remain as child-like as we can then and just put off the responsibilities :rolleyes: Even though I went for a science degree, I did it because I genuinely had a love and interest for what I was doing. I didn't do it because "I excelled at this subject at school so that must mean the uni bit will be a breeze and I can just drink my way through it...". In fact, far from it, Art and English was what I was good at but I pushed on with science anyway and got to uni - just - and went through it with no financial help whatsoever. I could have so done with a grant but why should there be grants available when they'll generally just be wasted!
Although I don't wholly agree with the fee increases as it will just become a thing for the rich again, I do see the point. I think the idea of an entrance exam could definitely work, might dissuade every Tom, Grape and Mercedes from enrolling on any old course...
I'm not surprised... it is actually brilliant.
:
Amen brother.
Off topic I know but I had a wild time partying
Biker Biggles
10-11-10, 09:51 PM
Like Ed, and most others back then, I got the full £££ and think its a crying shame that the students of today end up with the millstone of debt.
By all means increase my tax by a couple of % to help pay for them, and a better NHS.
As to the violence and destruction, it shouldn't happen we're British. Yet not too long ago some were praising the French for having the ba!!s to stand up for their rights.
Micky Mouse degrees; if that's what they want to do then let them. Its called freedom of choice, and what we all would 'fight' for. And in truth, many of today's youngsters know they are Micky Mouse degrees but they are hooked on going to uni.
Vive La France
D'accord action direct maintenant.
We have been rumbled.It was a gang of French agents provacateurs causing all the aggro at Millbank today.You didnt think the Brits would really rise up off their apathetic &rses and do anything did you?:evil::smt039:D
Sid Squid
11-11-10, 08:09 AM
Protesting 'students' - a perfect example of the UK now.
The party bought on the never never is over, the bills are here, the luxuries must be paid for, so what does the 'student' body do?
It lies on the floor beating it's hands and feet and promises to scream and scream and scream until it's sick. Pathetic.
454697819
11-11-10, 08:38 AM
Protesting 'students' - a perfect example of the UK now.
The party bought on the never never is over, the bills are here, the luxuries must be paid for, so what does the 'student' body do?
It lies on the floor beating it's hands and feet and promises to scream and scream and scream until it's sick. Pathetic.
but has a valid point..
not so valid that they go kicking the **** out of a building but of all the cut backs and increases in costs this is going up 200% vat is going up by 15% or something like that?
I dont really mind, I never went to uni however I fear for the current generation who are being screwed over AGAIN by another generations **** ups...
and in the same respect we always stand here saying..."ooooh the uk should be a bit more passionate about the things that we feel strongly about" and yet when they / we do they get criticised for not getting on with being walked over.
MisterTommyH
11-11-10, 10:01 AM
As I see isn't something the government has decided to charge more for, it's something they've stopped subsidising, but also put a cap on what unis can charge.
The attitude at a lot of schools now is you WILL go to uni, want to or not, because that's what's next. And it's good for their stats.
By all means increase my tax by a couple of % to help pay for them, and a better NHS.
As to the violence and destruction, it shouldn't happen we're British. Yet not too long ago some were praising the French for having the ba!!s to stand up for their rights.
Micky Mouse degrees; if that's what they want to do then let them. Its
It won't effect their disposable income. And any income gained from a part time job, whether it's put towards living or 'getting ****ed' won't scratch the surface of their debt. Its not going to have any effect on disposable income, there tuition fee will just increase, student do not see a penny of their tuition fee at present, this will not change in the future.
Why should they get something for nothing?
Sod off are you putting up my tax to fund drinking dossers.
So are you saying they should use violence or not? Please make up your mind.
Indeed, you want to do a micky mouse degree, then pay for it. You don't get something for nothing, and they will have to learn that at some point in life they have to take responsibility and not use the bank of mum and dad and scrounge off everyone else.
I think they need to learn that you don't get something for nothing and that short term pain will lead to long term gains.
Biker Biggles
11-11-10, 10:27 AM
Why just charge this money for University?How about charging for any education or training that people take on after the school leaving age?After all,these qualifications all assist people to get jobs which pay good wages.Perhaps we could have a sliding scale of charges according to the likely earnings from different courses,or perhaps we could keep it simple and put most of it on income tax.Those who get qualifications earn more money and pay back their tuition costs automatically through tax.Now theres a radical idea.
timwilky
11-11-10, 11:04 AM
Why just charge this money for University?How about charging for any education or training that people take on after the school leaving age?After all,these qualifications all assist people to get jobs which pay good wages.Perhaps we could have a sliding scale of charges according to the likely earnings from different courses,or perhaps we could keep it simple and put most of it on income tax.Those who get qualifications earn more money and pay back their tuition costs automatically through tax.Now theres a radical idea.
What you seriously mean that people only pay once, when government suggests they should pay twice?
That was always the flaw in the argument that graduates earm more so they can afford to pay back. If they earn more, they are already paying more income tax.
missyburd
11-11-10, 12:14 PM
Turn on radio 2 now if you're near a radio, heated debate about it all on the Jeremy Vine show...
One of the reasons for a massive hike in tuition fees was to ease degree costs for FOREIGN students, PM David Cameron said yesterday during a visit to Beijing, China.
Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3222200/Top-cop-I-did-not-predict-a-riot.html#ixzz14yc9HRka
I would have turned up and just thrown soap at them. Dirty students!
Specialone
11-11-10, 01:30 PM
I understand that these people dont want a hike in fees, i mean, who wants to pay more for anything, but what happened yesterday was a disgrace.
Where do they think the money wil come from? just print more :rolleyes:
Were in the sh1te because of one thing, our previous government spent money they didnt have, fact.
The present government has to reduce it and quick, its going to affect us all, they cant just cherry pick stuff not to cut.
Rioting, not protesting, will do absolutley nothing to help anyone, who is gonna pay for the damage yesterday and the cost of the clear up???
Not helping is it.
The police were stupidly out numbered and under manned, it was allowed to escalate when it should have been nipped in the bud way earlier.
The **** throwing the extinguisher off the roof could have easily killed a police officer, he willed be traced and sent down with a bit of luck, as i hope the others who were involved will be.
Police cant win, if they got the horses out and baton charged the trouble makers then its seen as heavy handed, dont dive in, they are accused of not doing enough.
The scum yesterday needed a baton charge, to see where the tax money they dont pay atm goes.
Havent read previous posts so sorry for any duplication of opinions.
The attitude at a lot of schools now is you WILL go to uni, want to or not, because that's what's next. And it's good for their stats.
so true Tommy - league tables etc etc put pressure on kids from teachers.
I did 4 years at uni - full grant, stayed at home and worked through it. I walk out with £1200 debt. BA(hons) Hosp Mgt and walked straight into a job. I still have my debt as I still don't earn enough to pay it back 12 years later.
I was lucky i was tuition free but I believe that students should have to pay something as it will cleanse the courses of those who are only there for a good time. It may also make the course more applicable. Mines is now obsolete and not offered.
Though who decides what a Mickey mouse course is - Forensics are over subscribed 10 fold and the job succession rate is pitiful but is it a MM course and shouldn't be offered or should it be curbed.
should MM course have core teaching elements so they become useful??
I do only think that any of this will work when school league tables are scrapped as its starts there. Kids are not allowed to go get a job without having to go to Uni first
I don't believe in entrance exams as this disadvantages those who are not academically minded. I'm crap at exams but cont assessment helped my get my degree and I'm not what you class as thick.
why have an entrance exam for a practical course.
My opinions probably don't count cos we don't have tution fees but we do have the influx of the english taking our places because mummy and daddy want them to go the same uni as royalty and then ****ing it up the wall when we have some ambitous kids who don't get to go when its all they wanted to do.
Just as a point of fact, schools do not get evaluated on the number of students who go to Uni. Some parents may be interested in the information, but Ofsted aren't
MisterTommyH
11-11-10, 04:07 PM
True. Our school wanted good figures for the prospectus: 79.5% of our students went on to higher education, 19% went into full time employment or job with training.
I never wanted to go, but between school and my parents I didn't get much choice. Lasted about 8 weeks (luckily just short of the time when they can demand a whole years fees). I came away, worked, grew up and went back years later with my employer paying my fees. And feeling better for it as I have no debt.
Not sure about up here I know HMI are really interested in it. But its always produced by the schools come open days etc etc.
Sid Squid
11-11-10, 06:49 PM
but has a valid point.
Has it?
I don't think so. Education in this country is free, if you want further education so that you can enhance your earnings I don't see why people earning minimum wage should have their taxes spent on making you better off.
We've had about four decades of spending on something that should never have been - so much and so long has this been spent that the assumption it's right and normal is ingrained in the conciousness of those who wish to access education of all social and economic backgrounds.
This has never been correct, and now our economy has been wrested from the hands of those who should never have been entrusted with it some difficult economic decisions need to be made.
But still the purple faced raging child squeals.
Biker Biggles
11-11-10, 07:09 PM
I think it is a valid point,as is yours.The education system(at all levels)is not just there for individuals to get qualified and earn more money,although that is a significant part of it.It is also there for the betterment of our whole society and its economic progress.Witness the developing nations like India and China who are pulling out all the stops to get people educated to fuel their economies.Fail to keep up with that and our economic decline will accelerate dramatically making the last thirty years of decline look pedestrian.What we really need to do is find a way of getting the best people we have onto the best education courses and supporting them to do the best for the country.Jacking up fees wont achieve that IMO,it will just put off the talented and preserve the privilaged mediocrity we are so used to.
Stephen McG
11-11-10, 08:46 PM
I read today that the students said they were harassed by the police with bars of soap and job adverts
Anon
yorkie_chris
11-11-10, 09:17 PM
I was lucky i was tuition free but I believe that students should have to pay something as it will cleanse the courses of those who are only there for a good time.
I can't really see this at all.
I could not have afforded to pay the tuition fees and eat, I managed to scrape enough together scratting round under sh*tbox motors for 3/5ths of f*** all an hour in the snow and minging weather to buy myself a half decent bike at the end of the first year.
Lots of others end up with overdrafts at the end of each year due to living costs (not all of it alcoholic!)
Pay for it with what? At the moment if they just increase fees and student loans take up the slack then it won't change a thing as the student loan is very much the "never never".
If it needs paying for directly, people at 18 straight out of 6th form can't do it, no way. It would just limit places to the ones going on Daddy's credit card, and that isn't right.
I don't know what the solution is but more debt is not the key. I do think uni places need to be cut back. And hopefully from this the value of higher education would be increased.
Sid Squid
11-11-10, 11:21 PM
Witness the developing nations like India and China who are pulling out all the stops to get people educated to fuel their economies.
Point taken but the two countries you mention are not a good example, they have a far smaller proportion of their populations that have a further education, and are extremely unlikely ever to even try to fund FE to the level that the UK enjoys. Much further education in this country has become at best esoteric, and at worst a simple unthinking extension of time in education for little value to either the recipient or our society, for some in FE it's become little more than 'just what you do'.
I do think uni places need to be cut back. And hopefully from this the value of higher education would be increased.
This is an excellent point - every extra body in your lectures is a dilution of the education you receive, if they're not serious about taking in and subsequently using that education more so.
The argument over debt is stratospherically overstated - you don't pay it back until you earn enough to do so, and you'll never get money from anywhere else at the sort of terms you'll get a student loan for.
yorkie_chris
11-11-10, 11:25 PM
The argument over debt is stratospherically overstated - you don't pay it back until you earn enough to do so, and you'll never get money from anywhere else at the sort of terms you'll get a student loan for.
Cheapest money you'll ever borrow.
And ideally it gets paid back a hell of a lot more times over than once due to the higher tax on higher earnings.
Which Mr Daily Mail "they're taking my tax money" seems to completely miss...
There was some damn commie from down saaaf "representing" students on the radio today... where did they dredge that bint up from, dear me she didn't help matters...
metalmonkey
11-11-10, 11:28 PM
I have spoken to a person who was at the protest, out of 50 000 people he said it was about 200 or so people that actually casued all that damage isn't that the case when this kind of thing happens?
I think again another protest with a serious message is being lost in violence, there is no excuse for violence change can be achived without it.
What is fact is that to get the student vote Nick Clegg said he would stop the rise in fees for education, he signed a document saying this. Now he has gone back on his word. How can we trust another thing he says?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11732787
It is right that is looked at, but isn't education going to be come something only the rich can do? Sounds like we going backwards rather than fowards...
With this whole spending review, its people that can least afford it it affects this dosen't affect MP's and their familes nor their peers just regular people.
There doesn't seem to an easy answer to this problem and many others we are facing, or we have the answer but just don't want to say it out loud.
yorkie_chris
11-11-10, 11:35 PM
The liberals have gone after the student vote in a big way for a few years, they've shot themselves in the foot good and proper IMO.
The only thing of note that was said by that commie bint was that students since the 90s or so have had a reputation as being "apolitical" and "apathetic" while actually a lot have attended marches and protests... just their peaceful nature has meant they didn't get heard. Now there has been a bit of violence the protest gets noticed...
metalmonkey
11-11-10, 11:41 PM
The liberals have gone after the student vote in a big way for a few years, they've shot themselves in the foot good and proper IMO.
The only thing of note that was said by that commie bint was that students since the 90s or so have had a reputation as being "apolitical" and "apathetic" while actually a lot have attended marches and protests... just their peaceful nature has meant they didn't get heard. Now there has been a bit of violence the protest gets noticed...
Yes they have question being where will that vote go now?
I went to several protest as a student, all of which were peaceful. Is not about about time, we actually had people in government who should be there not the puppets put in place to wave and smile.
MisterTommyH
11-11-10, 11:42 PM
I have spoken to a person who was at the protest, out of 50 000 people he said it was about 200 or so people that actually casued all that damage isn't that the case when this kind of thing happens?
Maybe, but when one if the student organisers goes on tele next day and says words to the effect of "yeah we had always been planning this kind of thing" I have no sympathy for any of them.
On another point do the police ever get a break? They get slated for not being prepared, but when they were prepared and 'kettled' people a few years ago they were apparently OTT.
metalmonkey
11-11-10, 11:53 PM
Maybe, but when one if the student organisers goes on tele next day and says words to the effect of "yeah we had always been planning this kind of thing" I have no sympathy for any of them.
On another point do the police ever get a break? They get slated for not being prepared, but when they were prepared and 'kettled' people a few years ago they were apparently OTT.
I don't know didn't see the report on that...
As for the police they are always getting wrong, they represent bad manangment the rot starts at the top and falls down through the ranks.
I watched the moive "V for Vendetta" a few days ago which I have seen before watch it.
MisterTommyH
24-11-10, 06:05 PM
I think there's going to be some very cold students on London tonight. Some of them only have very thin coats on.
And they moan about the police tactics after what they did last time.
yorkie_chris
24-11-10, 06:09 PM
Hey if the police want to push people to violence. I think they got off lightly with how docile everyone was at the last protest.
Bluepete
24-11-10, 07:53 PM
We had lots of fun in Manchester!
A very well behaved and pleasent march, lots of clever banners and funny chants, and I thoroughly enjoyed it on my bike! Some were arrested I'm told for sitting in the middle of the road, but I think it was to prevent them getting piles from the freezing road!
Pete ;)
maviczap
24-11-10, 08:21 PM
And NO you lot can't come to Scotland and take all our FREE tution free places.
Not for much longer, as Scotland is reviewing free places I read, because Nick & Dave haven't given you as much money as you were hoping for :confused:
andrewsmith
24-11-10, 08:26 PM
Not for much longer, as Scotland is reviewing free places I read, because Nick & Dave haven't given you as much money as you were hoping for :confused:
I would put bets on the fees would be £1300 or whats charged to everyone outside of Scotland
yorkie_chris
25-11-10, 11:00 PM
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/mortified-police-deny-being-injured-by-ponces-201011253287/
Rofl
Bluepete
26-11-10, 07:42 AM
That's really funny Chris! I'll print it out and put it onour wall of shame at work!
Pete ;)
andrewsmith
26-11-10, 09:38 AM
haha. That sounds like the people protesting in newcastle
Watching it on the Beeb right now.
I'm on the side of the peaceful protesters. The Lib Dems have behaved disgracefully in breaking their promise and the Government has acted shabbily. All very well if you can afford Eton (David Cameron) but to burden students with such huge debts is shameful - we will now have the most expensive public universities in Europe.
I think that students will become extremely picky over where they choose to study and the shall we say less well known universities are going to struggle mightily.
A friend lives in Newtown, Powys, and her son is at university in London. He has a loan of £8K a year and it doesn't even cover his rent. His mother has a second job to help pay for it. Things can only get worse.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 06:49 PM
The problem is that the Lib Dems didn't get themselves elected so they can't keep their campaign promises.
For those protestors that are actually planning to be peaceful there is plenty of open space in the containment where the cameras are moving about freely, they can go and stand in one of those.
Unfortunately the police can't just let people out who ask to get out - 1) because the violent ones see that as a weak point to attack; and 2) because you could get the same situation as last time where people ask peacefully to be let out then re-group somewhere else like trafalgar square, meaning they now need to operate two containments.
All of these protestors must have known what happened last time, and should be prepared for a very cold wait.
yorkie_chris
09-12-10, 06:53 PM
All of these protestors must have known what happened last time, and should be prepared for a very cold wait.
Or should have brought petrol and flares, if the police are going to cause a violent protest they should at least get a decent one
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 06:58 PM
Yes the police put the rocks in those peoples hands and made them smash the windows (!)
A friend lives in Newtown, Powys, and her son is at university in London. He has a loan of £8K a year and it doesn't even cover his rent. His mother has a second job to help pay for it. Things can only get worse.
He's being taken for a ride then. Even some ridiculous penthouse places in sought after areas of London don't cost that much. He needs to down grade or move to somewhere more appropriate.
On another note, It is pretty disgraceful how this is all being handled, from both sides. The government and 'students'. I say 'students' as most of the ****ers protesting are just after a show.
My favourite quote of the day: "We iz from da slums of London, 'ow is we gonna pay for university now." :-({|=
There are not enough jobs for grads at the moment so most of the wanabee's will end up spending their lives thinking the Country owes them a living. At the moment all we are doing is paying for their attitude by having to pay to clear up the mess they are making. Either pay what the costs are or don't do it. I wonder how many are looking to do this course HERE (http://www.derby.ac.uk/computing/gamesprogramming) and what benefit that is to the country?
Harsh! I haven't started yet...............................
grimey121uk
09-12-10, 07:57 PM
There are not enough jobs for grads at the moment so most of the wanabee's will end up spending their lives thinking the Country owes them a living. At the moment all we are doing is paying for their attitude by having to pay to clear up the mess they are making. Either pay what the costs are or don't do it. I wonder how many are looking to do this course HERE (http://www.derby.ac.uk/computing/gamesprogramming) and what benefit that is to the country?
Harsh! I haven't started yet...............................
I agree with what you are saying, being a graduate myself I know countless people with degrees that cant get jobs,
They are actually genuinely surprised that they cant get jobs with art, history and sociology degrees,
I graduated in computer networking 6 months ago and managed to get a decent job, however out of a class of 20 only 2 of us have a job, and we both graduated with a first, there is far to many graduates and not enough jobs.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 08:07 PM
ironically computer games programming is an area where there are jobs available...especially for female graduates.
The situation we are in now was caused by the previous governments assertion that everyone should have the right to go to University....maybe, but not everyone has to capability to do an old fashioned degree course and as a result the contents of our current university courses have been dumbed down to ensure that 2/3 of the course pass (if they don't the universities stats make them look bad).
15 years ago you could become a chartered engineer with a BSc and initial professional development. 10 years ago you needed a BEng and IPD. Now you need to have an MEng + IPD or a BEng + MSc + IPD. The reason for this? The engineering council has recognised that the standards of the courses are getting lower and to keep the standards of the engineering profession they have had to raise the membership requirements.
Everyone should have the right to university - If they are capable of passing a proper course with career prospects at the end.
Mr Speirs
09-12-10, 08:10 PM
My favourite quote of the day: "We iz from da slums of London, 'ow is we gonna pay for university now." :-({|=
I thought, Sir, the my question, Sir, was a perfectly legitimate one thank you very much, Sir.
grimey121uk
09-12-10, 08:11 PM
ironically computer games programming is an area where there are jobs available...especially for female graduates.
The situation we are in now was caused by the previous governments assertion that everyone should have the right to go to University....maybe, but not everyone has to capability to do an old fashioned degree course and as a result the contents of our current university courses have been dumbed down to ensure that 2/3 of the course pass (if they don't the universities stats make them look bad).
15 years ago you could become a chartered engineer with a BSc and initial professional development. 10 years ago you needed a BEng and IPD. Now you need to have an MEng + IPD or a BEng + MSc + IPD. The reason for this? The engineering council has recognised that the standards of the courses are getting lower and to keep the standards of the engineering profession they have had to raise the membership requirements.
Everyone should have the right to university - If they are capable of passing a proper course with career prospects at the end.
I think everyone has a right to have education
However
I dont believe it is a right that there tax payer should fund it, its a privilege and funding should only be given to people who show great potential and given to people studying courses on a subject which is in demand in society.
Basically if your studying some bull**** subject or don't make the grade don't expect the tax payer to fund it, pay for it yourself
Im not surprised many graduates cant get jobs we had people in the 3rd year of a networking course that still didn't understand how to get 2 pc's to talk to each other, again this is also why degrees are worth fekk all these days
Everyone should have the right to university - If they are capable of passing a proper course with career prospects at the end.
Said a few times by a few people and I totally agree. The world has been too long run by plumb talking idiots. You only have to watch "The Apprentice" to see that passing a course and intelligence are two different things.
For the record I am not a grad but I don't (and never have) done badly.
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 08:31 PM
I think everyone has a right to have education
However
I dont believe it is a right that there tax payer should fund it, its a privilege and funding should only be given to people who show great potential and given to people studying courses on a subject which is in demand in society.
Basically if your studying some bull**** subject or don't make the grade don't expect the tax payer to fund it, pay for it yourself
Im not surprised many graduates cant get jobs we had people in the 3rd year of a networking course that still didn't understand how to get 2 pc's to talk to each other, again this is also why degrees are worth fekk all these days
I have to agree with the above after the protests and a few things that are coming out the woodword with my course.
I studied one of the sectors thats shorthanded like engineering (Building Surveying for the record), and it one of the courses taking the biggest funding cuts.
And most the students protesting in Newcastle were studying 'non-degrees' like phycology or the like as 80% of the undergrads from my school aint seen the outside of a IT lab for about 4 weeks.
With regards to protestors, all of those who riot completely undermine the sensible, intelligent and peaceful protests of the majority of students there. It's disgusting and completely reprehensible.
For me, the problem with education was highlighted by a statistic on BBC news yesterday: in 1990 there were ~150k students, now there are ~470k. As far as I'm concerned, higher education needs to go back to where it was. Clever people doing academic degrees that serve a purpose to professional job sectors/industries. Practical people serving apprenticeships. Everybody else making up the numbers. After all not every job requires degree level abilities, most jobs are unskilled.
Turning universities from mainly academic areas of study to knitting pancakes and such like completely devalues a degree.
Wonder how my employers will feel about putting me through a degree with fees going up. Hmph.
BigBaddad
09-12-10, 09:05 PM
Students pah. .....get a job.
I think certain courses should be free for those who have worked hard at school/college.
in 1990 there were ~150k students, now there are ~470k.
Blame the last Labour Government.
Lots of interesting views above.
None of it alters the fact that we now have the most expensive public universities in Europe.
Now that's something to be proud of, eh.
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 09:06 PM
Students pah. .....get a job.
I think certain courses should be free for those who have worked hard at school/college.
I'd propose
- engineering
- physics
anyone else add to this list
Blame the last Labour Government.
Lots of interesting views above.
None of it alters the fact that we now have the most expensive public universities in Europe.
Now that's something to be proud of, eh.
I can't help noting the irony involved. One assumes the vast majority of MPs didn't leave university with any debt worth mentioning...
If the amount of students went back down to ~150k, would there have been scope to continue the public funding of higher education?
I never feel strongly about much, I'm not very political. But on education, I firmly believe that only the best should go to university. Now, everybody has a degree so to stand out perhaps you need a masters or a phd. The more people that get a degree, the less a degree is worth, as I see it.
I'd propose
- engineering
- physics
- Graphic Design
anyone else add to this list
Why only certain courses?
Maybe beneficial ones to society...? Eliminate things like health and beauty stuff.
Bluefish
09-12-10, 09:16 PM
I can't help noting the irony involved. One assumes the vast majority of MPs didn't leave university with any debt worth mentioning...
If the amount of students went back down to ~150k, would there have been scope to continue the public funding of higher education?
I never feel strongly about much, I'm not very political. But on education, I firmly believe that only the best should go to university. Now, everybody has a degree so to stand out perhaps you need a masters or a phd. The more people that get a degree, the less a degree is worth, as I see it.
+1, some bird on the radio the other day, degree in something totally useless, now looking for a job as a care worker, that means minimum wage, what was the point of going to uni :-({|=
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 09:20 PM
Why only certain courses?
Maybe beneficial ones to society...? Eliminate things like health and beauty stuff.
Engineering covers hell of a lot of fields.
Milky Bar Kid
09-12-10, 09:26 PM
The entire thing about education is a shambles. I started studying at university in 2005. Due to the wage my dad makes, which was only just on the threshold, I received the minimum student loan available. Luckily I was fairly sensible and h...ad saved a bit from working during the holidays and got a job whilst I was there. However, one of the girls in the halls with me got something ridiculous like almost triple what I got in the way of a loan because her mum and dad were split up and she stayed with her mum and only had to declare her mums wages as her mum wasn't married to her new man. Her new man was a solicitor or similar and was on a much higher wage than my dad. She was getting a ridiculous amount of loan money PLUS getting sent "presents" of laptops and printers and things.
And I don't for one minute buy this argument of "only the rich" will be able to afford degrees. NONSENSE! Look at America, they manage over there. Things such as scholarships will be introduced allowing those who can't afford it to earn the right to a free education, or at least funding towards their education, or god forbid, young people might need to get a part time job whilst at school and EARN some bloody money to help pay their way! Education is a right, further education is not. If education should be free, then why can't I, at only 23 years old, go to university tomorrow for nothing? Either it's free for everyone or not at all. Further to that, they don't even have to pay up front. They will only be paying it once they earn £21k a year like the current Student Loan system.
If the numbers of doctors, nurses, paramedics, firefighters and police have to be cut then I am sorry, that is a bigger sacrifice to society than for students to have to pay increased fees.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 09:43 PM
Further to that, they don't even have to pay up front. They will only be paying it once they earn £21k a year like the current Student Loan system.
Thats the whole point. You pay nothing up front. Yes it's a debt, but it's not like credit card debt. You pay it back at a quite low rate. Everyone will have one, so it won't count against mortgages etc (I don't think SLC loans do at the moment?) and if you never get above 21 K it gets written off after about 15 years.
Most of these people who go and do a pointless degree will never break that threshold and will never have to pay for it. They can't understand this, and yet they want to go to university? They might have to grasp some concepts more complicated that than in a degree!
(PS I hope that student swinging off the cenotaph gets sent to prison!)
Engineering covers hell of a lot of fields.
So?
It certainly has to miss out a lot of other important elements.
Bit of digression, but engineering couldn't be the only supported course if this hypothetical plan was launched.
martin15s
09-12-10, 09:48 PM
bloody professional students
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 09:50 PM
So?
It certainly has to miss out a lot of other important elements.
Bit of digression, but engineering couldn't be the only supported course if this hypothetical plan was launched.
They were purely two examples for illustration purposes only!
I used them two as they are the most well known to be suffering major shortages of staff
Thats the whole point. You pay nothing up front. Yes it's a debt, but it's not like credit card debt. You pay it back at a quite low rate. Everyone will have one, so it won't count against mortgages etc (I don't think SLC loans do at the moment?) and if you never get above 21 K it gets written off after about 15 years.
(PS I hope that student swinging off the cenotaph gets sent to prison!)
Is that fifteen year thing fact? I know there are a lot of 'clauses' meaning it getting written off, is constantly staying below the threshold one?
Also i wouldn't be surprised if that guy on the cenotaph wasn't even a student. Just some chav ass hole along for the ride.
Too many pointless degrees out there.
I do wonder how many of the protesters were studying in the engineering fields - my prediction would be not many. None of the full-timers on my BEng were bothered about it.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 10:04 PM
Is that fifteen year thing fact? .
I'm not sure it is definatly 15 years but there is definatly a limit. I've heard them trying to get the message out. Why haven't the students? Is this even going to affect anyone who's already started a course?
Edit: Ok so it's 30 years, but still you'll only pay if you get above the threshold - i.e. a graduates wage. And if you don't then it does eventually get wiped out. The facts are here: http://www.factsonfees.com/new-system.php
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 10:07 PM
I'm not sure it is definatly 15 years but there is definatly a limit. I've heard them trying to get the message out. Why haven't the students? Is this even going to affect anyone who's already started a course?
its 25 before the debt is written off!
I support peaceful protest but the rent a mobs in London are just a rabble, violent thugs, pondlife. Why attack Charles and Camilla? How are they involved?
Sid Squid
09-12-10, 10:37 PM
As stated, (and conveniently ignored), a thousand times:
You will earn more money over your working life as graduate.
You don't have to pay a penny back until your earnings will support the repayment.
If you never earn enough you'll never pay it back.
And just to recap for it appears some have forgotten:
Further education is a privilege - not a right.
The student demos disgust me. Grow up and shoulder some of the responsibility you whining idiots. While you bitch about how much this is going to cost you think of the people who have to pay the tax to fund your enhancing your earnings and employability.
Don't even start the argument that this is for the good of the country, that's just laughable, people go to college or university for what it will give them and nothing else, no higher purpose, it's all about the recipient and no more, and still they whine that someone else should pay. Oh yes, very fair.
The Lib Dems have behaved disgracefully in breaking their promiseNo they haven't, they didn't win the general election thus they don't get to implement their policies as they might like to do had they won.
and the Government has acted shabbily.
How so? Our present government is doing what's needed to sort out the vile mess we're in - and everybody thinks the economies we need to make should be shouldered by others.
That's shabby.
Milky Bar Kid
09-12-10, 10:54 PM
For once I completely agree with Sid.
andrewsmith
09-12-10, 10:55 PM
wrongly I don't fancy an argument!
I agree with Sid alsi
Bluefish
09-12-10, 11:05 PM
And me vote sid for P.M.
@ Sid -
what difference does it make if the Lib Dems are the party of Government or not? They said they wouldn't raise fees. And they have. I can't see any room for manoeuvre on that. A promise is a promise, just because circumstances didn't turn out exactly as they hadd hoped doesn't man that the promise is nugatory.
And the Government acting shabbily. I would say that a near trebling of fees is shabby. It's irrelevant if the threshold for repayment is raised. What is relevant is the massive debt that kids will have to carry for many many years. Insofar as it will encourage people to choose their course wisely, then as I said above, that's no bad thing.
On other people paying for the reforms - well please explain why I should pay to train teachers in India. Or to develop clean burn fuel technology in China. Or to subsidise Sudanese farmers. I could go on and on and on, why is international development ring fenced, doesn't charity start at home?
Yes of course students do their courses to develop themselves. I did, back in 1982. But I have paid so much higher rate tax, paid a fortune in VAT that I've collected, and all the rest of it. I believe that the country has had value for money.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 11:20 PM
@ Sid -
And the Government acting shabbily. I would say that a near trebling of fees is shabby. It's irrelevant if the threshold for repayment is raised. What is relevant is the massive debt that kids will have to carry for many many years. Insofar as it will encourage people to choose their course wisely, then as I said above, that's no bad thing.
Yes of course students do their courses to develop themselves. I did, back in 1982. But I have paid so much higher rate tax, paid a fortune in VAT that I've collected, and all the rest of it. I believe that the country has had value for money.
First Point - Aren't they just implimenting a report that the previous government comissioned and ran? Ironic that they're all against it now they're in opposition!
Second Point - I agree that you pay back many times for your degress as a successful graduate. As i'm sure you agree is right. But what about the many thousands who will do a degree (or half of one) and end up working in Sainsburys? Nothing wrong with working there, but you're probably not using the degree that the rest of the country has funded. What a waste.
Milky Bar Kid
09-12-10, 11:21 PM
what difference does it make if the Lib Dems are the party of Government or not? They said they wouldn't raise fees. And they have. I can't see any room for manoeuvre on that. A promise is a promise, just because circumstances didn't turn out exactly as they hadd hoped doesn't man that the promise is nugatory.
And the Government acting shabbily. I would say that a near trebling of fees is shabby. It's irrelevant if the threshold for repayment is raised. What is relevant is the massive debt that kids will have to carry for many many years. Insofar as it will encourage people to choose their course wisely, then as I said above, that's no bad thing.
Paragraph 1 - Ok, I'm sorry Ed but...WHAT???! The Lib Dems don't have the majority. As far as I am aware, it was a very close vote that saw this being passed today, which tends to suggest that most of the Lib Dems will have, in vain, stuck to their values. They are part of a coalition in order to give a CLEAR majority. The tory party have majority. Your point is like saying...why haven't Labour carried out their promises....answer THEY DIDN'T GET VOTED IN! Nick Clegg is not the bloody PM, how the hell is he supposed to take responsibility for this!
Paragraph 2 - They have NOT trebled the fees. They have said the for some courses, and as was said tonight on the news, "in extreme circumstances" the universities can charge UP to £9k. The rest of courses are thought to be getting increased to £6k.
Personally Ed, I would prefer the Govt to sort out the NHS, Fire Service, Ambulance Service, Police, and other essential services first and foremost. Then, and only then, can we get back to throwing money at yoghurt knitting degrees.
Yes of course students do their courses to develop themselves. I did, back in 1982. But I have paid so much higher rate tax, paid a fortune in VAT that I've collected, and all the rest of it. I believe that the country has had value for money.
Agree with that point, but the first one about Lib Dems going back on thier policy is a sketchy one.
They are not soley responsible for the country surely, especially as they were the minority party in the coalition. Pretty sure a fair few of the Lib Dems still voted to keep fees as they are, but they were still out voted on the reform today. Just how it goes as a coalition government i think. There was an interesting debate on this topic on telly tonight at about 10.30. Can't remember what the show was called though.
Yogurt knitting degrees.... I don't have a problem with them getting rid of all the people who shouldn't be there in the first place, nor with all the worthless courses and institutions that really don't advance the nation. Chop chop, not a problem.
The Lib Dems all signed a pledge not to raise tuition fees, and now they have voted for it. They could have voted against, or abstained - some did. You can't argue that black is white. The Lib Dems ARE in power, they hold the balance of power, and they could have voted against. Sell out.
So the Government is raising the fees to £6K. That's nearly double. What if your bills were nearly doubled, what would you have to say about that? Ah well they don't have to go to university. That is perfectly true. But neiither do you have to put fuel in your bike, smokers don't have to smoke, drinkers don't have to drink.
On the police, there's a value for money argument there too. The national clear up rate is around 23%. Or in other words, the failure rate is 77%.
Is that acceptable, do you consider?
See, it's not as clear cut as you might think.
MisterTommyH
09-12-10, 11:36 PM
The Lib Dems all signed a pledge not to raise tuition fees, and now they have voted for it. They could have voted against, or abstained - some did. You can't argue that black is white. The Lib Dems ARE in power, they hold the balance of power, and they could have voted against. Sell out.
So the Government is raising the fees to £6K. That's nearly double. What if your bills were nearly doubled, what would you have to say about that? Ah well they don't have to go to university. That is perfectly true. But neiither do you have to put fuel in your bike, smokers don't have to smoke, drinkers don't have to drink.
But by doing so they would defeat the raise, which would effecively wreck the coalition because with out these savings the rest of the budget and the compromises that both Lib Dems and Tories have made just won't work.
And then the coalition isn't stable as there is not longer an overall majority and we'll be back to a general election.
Whats the lesser of two evils? Go back on your word on this, or have a general election which may bring back labour, or conservatives with a proper majority and then lib dems are back where they were with less seats than last term and having thrown away their chance to push voting reform - a more long standing policy. Their core voters would never forgive them for that. So it't another question - p1ss of the students, or long term core voters?
On the second point - it's not like bills doubling as it's not immediate outgoings. You do well, you pay back at 9%. You dont, you don't - Simples.
Still disagree, Tommy. This was a core LD principle. It now emerges that LDs have no principles.
OK so lets nearly double pension contributions... saving for jam tomorrow. Fees are payback of jam yesterday. Same difference, no?
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