Student protests in Westminster LIVE right now! [Archive] - Page 3 - SV650.org

TazDaz

11-12-10, 12:42 PM

They should encourage more apprenticeships / sponsorships.

I work 4 days a week, and go to uni for one day, which is a pretty horrendous 9 hours of lectures and 2 hours of labs. I still have all the coursework / self learning to do, which is done in the evenings after a full days work. Slightly confused how I have more lectures in one day, than some supposedly full time courses have in a week.

There aren't a massive amount of opportunities out there, which is why there needs to be a change. Industries should realise that training up juniors without degrees is a good idea - UK needs to get out of the situation of having a degree as the entry level qualification.

jamesterror

11-12-10, 12:45 PM

They should encourage more apprenticeships / sponsorships.

I work 4 days a week, and go to uni for one day, which is a pretty horrendous 9 hours of lectures and 2 hours of labs. I still have all the coursework / self learning to do, which is done in the evenings after a full days work. Slightly confused how I have more lectures in one day, than some supposedly full time courses have in a week.

I agree with that, I'd happily have my full time uni course that consists of 12 hours over two days and work the other 3 days a week, probably at the weekend too.

B1k3R

11-12-10, 12:45 PM

More and more students leave school with a quadzillion A*****'s Well more stars then you need to serve chips in MacD's with and yet this is reported in the paper this morning
HERE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337602/Thousands-teachers-struggle-pass-simple-literacy-numeracy-tests-worrying-figures-reveal.html)
How does that work?

MisterTommyH

11-12-10, 12:49 PM

Our company generally doesn't employ graduates. They either take on a junior and train them up through day release or take on people who have at least 5 years experience. To them a graduate it just a junior that they have to pay more. They may have a greater amount of background knowledge but they still have to learn the industry experience which the junior is learning from 18.

Plus, how can you send the graduate to fetch the cakes?

thefallenangel

11-12-10, 12:49 PM

TazDaz

11-12-10, 01:27 PM

It's how i served my time. 4 days working 1 on my BTEC/HNC/HND and now going for a degree and in comparision to the full time students us part time ones are a million times smarter. They have no practical skills which doesn't help when they go for a job. Degree without practical skills doesn't help.

Same...straight from school, BTEC, HNC and now BEng. In third year of in-house graduate development scheme, X amount of project management courses/certificates and earn more than a fresh graduate does, despite only in the office 4 days. Entry-level money was **** to start with though.

Government should support, not necessarily financially, these sorts of career routes as opposed to the leave school, go to college, go to uni, can't get a job.

tigersaw

11-12-10, 02:00 PM

Coming from the other side of the desk as it were, I despair at how totally unsuitable and unprepared graduates often are for the job market.
Fortunately I don't have to interview directly, but I do get involved in pre-assessing engineering applicants. Many of the graduates I see tend to be over confident, **** sure and fatally useless. I've had more suitable school summer placements. Really.

11-12-10, 05:42 PM

Plus, how can you send the graduate to fetch the cakes?

If they're not prepared to do that then they should get the sack.

For some people, one of the hardest lessons in life is that we are all in the same boat, we all have feelings, and we all like to be treated with respect. A graduate is not above anyone else in terms of doing the sh!t jobs. If you can't do the sh!t jobs then you have no understanding of what really happens in any given organisation. Cut a bin man, he bleeds.

Not that getting cake is a sh!t job:D

maviczap

11-12-10, 05:49 PM

I propose a new qualification to study for

'A degree in common sense' or 'Degree for life skills'

A lot of newbies at our place haven't got the slight bit of common sense

Example:

The electronic barrier at our place is fubarred, new parts on order, so you have to go the long way out, untilo it gets fixed

Newbies in a van, couldn't be arsed to go the long way and proceeded to try and raise the barrier by hand :rolleyes:

All caught on CCTV and all to save about 2 mins :confused:

Gene genie

11-12-10, 06:05 PM

heres my perspective, free education is a good thing which i thoroughly support for children and not adults. if you want FURTHER education then pay for it. i learned to drive a car and paid for it. i learned how to ride and paid for it.
i have suffered two years on 3/4 day weeks without a touch of o/time or bonus. my annual income has fallen around 12k. i have a family, mortgage, utillity bills, loans and so on. its still a struggle but thank god we are all still together in the home that our children are growing up in.
i haven't once protested, destroyed and beaten anyone because it will not solve anything. students do have my sympathy but in this world no-one should get a free ride.
are students above any personal financial hardship while i trudge on.

Bluefish

11-12-10, 07:49 PM

You also had the same choices as everyone else, to go to university or to go to work.

Haha, course i did, lol, when i left school i had never even heard of university, never mind had the choice to go to it.

anna

11-12-10, 10:15 PM

Haha, course i did, lol, when i left school i had never even heard of university, never mind had the choice to go to it.

The CHOICE was there whether your particular set of circumstances allowed you to take it is a different matter.

tigersaw

11-12-10, 10:25 PM

Only girly swots went to university in my day. You either got an apprenticeship, a job with your dad, joined the army or went down the pit.

neio79

12-12-10, 10:45 PM

What's that got to do with the price of eggs? (or insert unwashed goddamn pinko commie vegan substitute)

You can do that but you never got an art degree, our lass can do pencil drawings which I think are brilliant and seem to go down pretty well with everyone else too... she hasn't got an art degree either.

Going and doing some artsy degree does not equal having talent.

I can see where at art degree may be useful if you want to teach art, or buy and sell art.

Agreed, Art and such like is a natural tallent, degree not needed . Hence my opinion art degrees and alike fall into the pointless catogry.

yorkie_chris

12-12-10, 10:53 PM

I've got some respect for tradition and lets face it art is big business, also the loss of learned scholars would be a bad thing. What's the phrase "the price of knowledge is great but the price of ignorance even greater" something like that.

Uni's are big business though, on another level I don't see why someone should not have the right to go and blow 3 years on borrowed money, if they are going to pay it back.

If it was me, I'd probably shuffle it in line with other changes to tax, increase the basic allowance for tax (which benefits everyone) but introduce a small student loan repayment at a much lower level of earning.

Filipe M.

12-12-10, 11:50 PM

Agreed, Art and such like is a natural tallent, degree not needed . Hence my opinion art degrees and alike fall into the pointless catogry.

I'm sure all the people studying music, painting, photography, film, acting, and, let me see..., architecture! will love to know their degrees are pointless.

But then again they probably think the same about the people who shoot guns for a living.

... what is it that's usually said about blanket statements?, my memory isn't what it used to be anymore...

thefallenangel

13-12-10, 12:29 AM

I can see where YC is coming from because you don't need a degree to be a Mech, Elec or Tech fitter but you do need a degree to be a Mech, Elec or Tech Engineer/Designer/Manager but there sorts of positions shouldn't be given out to 21 year olds with no practical experience.

The job scene is simple in the UK atm, lots of people with "knowledge" but not enough experience at applying it. Our expertise went out the window when China and other countries took our industry and cheap labour from Eastern Europe took out the labour jobs and trying to take out the skilled jobs too but luckily the old boys club seems to be keeping that protected.

First thing for us would be to tell europe to go do one sort it's own financial mess out while we sort ours out by doing something to create our own way out (mass invest in a new energy source imo) and give these people with degrees something to do instead of putting bread on a shelf in tesco.

13-12-10, 12:46 AM

But then again they probably think the same about the people who shoot guns for a living.

Oi Neil!!! Who did you shoot today then:D

Stingo

13-12-10, 08:47 AM

davepreston

13-12-10, 08:59 AM

I'm sure all the people studying music, painting, photography, film, acting, and, let me see..., architecture! will love to know their degrees are pointless.

But then again they probably think the same about the people who shoot guns for a living.

... what is it that's usually said about blanket statements?, my memory isn't what it used to be anymore...
ding ding round 1 lol

film degrees make sence youve to learn something technical same as architecture, painting acting etc you either can or cant you dont need a degree to validate it

and people who shoot guns for a living also dont get degrees for it (mmmm masters degree in sniping ,dave preston s.s super sniper )

i think what there trying to put across is degrees should be given for things that require validation of skills not things you can just show off like in a portfolio

Milky Bar Kid

13-12-10, 09:04 AM

ding ding round 1 lol

film degrees make sence youve to learn something technical same as architecture, painting acting etc you either can or cant you dont need a degree to validate it

and people who shoot guns for a living also dont get degrees for it (mmmm masters degree in sniping ,dave preston s.s super sniper )

i think what there trying to put across is degrees should be given for things that require validation of skills not things you can just show off like in a portfolio

Nope disagree there to an extent Dave. You may have a natural raw talent for something such as acting or painting but there is an incredible amount of techniques and such like than can be learned.

I imagine that shooting may be slightly similar in that you either have a natural eye giving you a good aim and need to refine that with practice etc.

What about the people who study art, music and drama and go on to be teachers in those fields? Does that mean they are teaching something pointless? I don't believe they are.....

andrewsmith

13-12-10, 09:55 AM

and people who shoot guns for a living also dont get degrees for it (mmmm masters degree in sniping ,dave preston s.s super sniper )

Thats called the military!!!

davepreston

13-12-10, 09:58 AM

Nope disagree there to an extent Dave. You may have a natural raw talent for something such as acting or painting but there is an incredible amount of techniques and such like than can be learned.

I imagine that shooting may be slightly similar in that you either have a natural eye giving you a good aim and need to refine that with practice etc.

What about the people who study art, music and drama and go on to be teachers in those fields? Does that mean they are teaching something pointless? I don't believe they are.....
a degree in art does not train you to teach art etc thats a teaching degree, and yes lots can be learnt in any skillset but a artist doesnt need a bit of paper saying they can paint they need people to buy what they make, they can get taught more tecniques but why do they need a degree for it

as for shooting yes some people have a natural talant but most of it is just practice and repition after being taught techneque but you again dont need a piece of paper saying you can shoot, you just need to do it to get home alive

13-12-10, 10:56 AM

Just a thought... people who shoot guns for a living enable people to do degrees in meeja studies else we'd be overrun by North Koreans.

Filipe M.

13-12-10, 11:09 AM

Just a thought... people who shoot guns for a living enable people to do degrees in meeja studies else we'd be overrun by North Koreans.

Just another (very naive) thought... If they had more people doing meeja studies instead of shooting guns for a living, maybe "we" wouldn't need people who shoot guns for a living. ;)

Yes, this is an extremely simplistic and naive view of the world, and as I said in my previous post, it was only a blanket statement to try and illustrate a point. I have huge amounts of respect for the people who shoot guns for a living (on our side of the story, of course ;) ) who make it possible for the rest of us to lead peaceful lives. As much as I recognise the existence of several mickey mouse degrees, a blanket statement that includes all arts as such, is to me just that, a blanket statement that needs serious reconsidering.

No, you don't need a paper that says you can paint or sculpt, but just as in an ideal world we shouldn't need people who shoot guns for a living, in the actual current world if you want to hone your skills and be recognised as such you have to take the route that will give you a piece of paper in the end. In the renaissance you studied with the masters, today you get a degree. Fair enough, those guys could brag they studied with MichaelAngelo, our generation can say they have an Ph.D. in "Applied Techniques for Paintbrush Strokes on Church Ceilings". :lol:

Milky Bar Kid

13-12-10, 11:12 AM

a degree in art does not train you to teach art etc thats a teaching degree, and yes lots can be learnt in any skillset but a artist doesnt need a bit of paper saying they can paint they need people to buy what they make, they can get taught more tecniques but why do they need a degree for it

as for shooting yes some people have a natural talant but most of it is just practice and repition after being taught techneque but you again dont need a piece of paper saying you can shoot, you just need to do it to get home alive

Up here you need to get a degree in Art first and then get a post grad teaching qualification. I believe to teach a specific subject in England you need to have a degree in that subject aswell.

Messie

13-12-10, 12:33 PM

Yes, every teacher has to have a degree, either in a particular subject or in Education. Starting salary for is a teacher is just over £21,000 so they would have to start paying back any loans when they start their career

Quedos

13-12-10, 02:13 PM

Lets not forget though that Welsh and Scottish students have STILL got it easy with the costs...

hardly easy when a lot of the places are taken up by english student trying to avoid the fees. Meaning that we then have to travel south to get the education that we need. Also bearing in mind that across the majority of Scotland the S of L is cheaper than the majority of England.
I feel sorry for the Scottish students coming through.

However when Further education was self funded we had a lot more apprentice and manufacturing and different set up and ethic to work. Those that couldn't went out to work and got jobs and were trained up - getting just as valuable experience as those who went and studied in books. Surely we should looking at getting that ethos back with the companies. Not many companies train their own staff or even value their staff and that will not help.

I was one of the lucky ones who got in just as the grants ended so I was paid to do mine. Hospitality management - something I always wanted to do and in a growing sector. Yet I work public sector.
I worry about the micky degrees and who would decide whats a good one or not. Just becasue it MAY do the country some good who to say that the gradutes will actually go for that sectors job. As for ceramics degrees - with out those and the lack of training who will actually quality control the plates etc etc or would you rather we just import everything in and let everyone else manufacture everything that we may use.
We also need to stop the culture of I'm a graduate therefore that job is below me. Degrees are now as common as standard/GCSE/ or whatever the equivalents are and Graduate jobs are still essential entry level jobs with entry level pay and every entry level job should state or equivalent relevant experience.

Having seen some of the graduates I think we need to start applying more strict criteria - most of ours have no clue how to speak to people, write anything with a hint of formality let alone know what etquiette and manners are.

yorkie_chris

13-12-10, 06:33 PM

Though who decides what a Mickey mouse course is - Forensics are over subscribed 10 fold and the job succession rate is pitiful but is it a MM course and shouldn't be offered or should it be curbed.
should MM course have core teaching elements so they become useful??

I don't believe in entrance exams as this disadvantages those who are not academically minded. I'm crap at exams but cont assessment helped my get my degree and I'm not what you class as thick.
why have an entrance exam for a practical course.

You could say forensics is an example of a course which would say to an employer "hey, I'm intelligent and determined enough to get a degree level understanding of a difficult and complex subject"... so long as they don't make the course so easy your left foot could pass it.

They should have entrance exams that fit the course. A basic common sense test, say assembling a simple mechanism from a diagram, would do the engineering course a world of good. Even though actually doing the course is more derivatives and integrals than sockets and spanners.

lukemillar

13-12-10, 06:42 PM

TazDaz

13-12-10, 06:49 PM

Lot of people seem to be missing a huge point here. The purpose of going to university and studying <insert subject of choice> is simply to further your knowledge in that subject. What you decide to do with the knowledge (get a job, research, more education etc.) is down to you. It is incredibly short-sighted to say this degree or that degree is pointless because it doesn't result in a job.

...but there are professional students out there who literally just bounce from course to course wanting to "further their knowledge" in subjects which may be interesting, but should be classed as a hobby and carried out using their own funds.

I'd say that most, if not all degrees which don't result in a job are pointless, but that's just my opinion.

MisterTommyH

13-12-10, 07:05 PM

Lot of people seem to be missing a huge point here. The purpose of going to university and studying <insert subject of choice> is simply to further your knowledge in that subject. What you decide to do with the knowledge (get a job, research, more education etc.) is down to you. It is incredibly short-sighted to say this degree or that degree is pointless because it doesn't result in a job.

But it's a question of what we can sustain as a country. The last government used jobs as a reason to get everybody to university, so the fact that most of them aren't using those degrees is, in my opinion, a valid reason to reduced the funding. The countries funds should be focused on the professions or skilled trades that the country needs. Not saying this should always be the case, but if you can only afford so much you have to prioritise.

BTW - stop paying kids £30 a week to go to school. Some may need it but most just see it as pocket money. Fact.

andrewsmith

13-12-10, 07:13 PM

You could say forensics is an example of a course which would say to an employer "hey, I'm intelligent and determined enough to get a degree level understanding of a difficult and complex subject"... so long as they don't make the course so easy your left foot could pass it.

They should have entrance exams that fit the course. A basic common sense test, say assembling a simple mechanism from a diagram, would do the engineering course a world of good. Even though actually doing the course is more derivatives and integrals than sockets and spanners.

Forensics is the anomaly to the rule!

And the entrance exam concept would work on a lot of courses, I know through my brother studying MEng that the drop out rate is v. high first year and the 2nd year looks like its the same. Most of it (YC you should be able to clarify or quash this) is through the difficulty of the maths and the design work.
For the record I couldn't do the MEng, I'm not daft but the maths is beyond me.

Bringing it to my course (Building Surveying); the course works on a 10-15% drop out rate over the 4 years (year 3 is a work placement), but I came through the HND route and the 1st year of the HND was harder than the 2nd year of the BSc.
I looked at the teaching first year of the BSc route and it was childsplay in places.

andrewsmith

13-12-10, 07:15 PM

...but there are professional students out there who literally just bounce from course to course wanting to "further their knowledge" in subjects which may be interesting, but should be classed as a hobby and carried out using their own funds.

I'd say that most, if not all degrees which don't result in a job are pointless, but that's just my opinion.

Cantankerous view, but the professional students do blight the system and TBH should be stopped

yorkie_chris

13-12-10, 07:18 PM

Yeah it's the maths that's the killer in engineering degrees, a little more effort at first pays massive dividends later.
Not sure the design work is hard at all, quite a bit of time in it but not a lot of brain-melting.

Probably the hardest part for me, after the maths, was the CAD package we used in first year, which was horribly un-user friendly. We switched to Solidworks in the second year and it was a massive breath of fresh air.

Not sure who these professional students are, I've never met one myself, and I've drank in a lot of bars. Also met quite a few lads who were funding themselves through the last year or 2 of an engineering degree because they had had "false starts" previously and could not get funding.

It is my opinion that this fee increase will hurt these people the most, making it completely impossible for you to work yourself through a course.

lukemillar

13-12-10, 07:23 PM

I'd say that most, if not all degrees which don't result in a job are pointless, but that's just my opinion.

So, out of interest which degrees will result in a job?

andrewsmith

13-12-10, 07:25 PM

Yeah it's the maths that's the killer in engineering degrees, a little more effort at first pays massive dividends later.
Not sure the design work is hard at all, quite a bit of time in it but not a lot of brain-melting.

Probably the hardest part for me, after the maths, was the CAD package we used in first year, which was horribly un-user friendly. We switched to Solidworks in the second year and it was a massive breath of fresh air.

AutoCAD or PTC?
CAD packages are strange beasts, i learned AutoCAD 2005 which still used script as the main input (childsplay once you've learned the commands, but a pig doing it purely from script!).
But another flipside to all this is most firms will not employ me as a CAD operative purely because I aint got a City and Guilds in it (and my course, teaches CAD to the same standard)- Work that one out!

yorkie_chris

13-12-10, 07:30 PM

AutoCAD or PTC?
CAD packages are strange beasts, i learned AutoCAD 2005 which still used script as the main input (childsplay once you've learned the commands, but a pig doing it purely from script!).
But another flipside to all this is most firms will not employ me as a CAD operative purely because I aint got a City and Guilds in it (and my course, teaches CAD to the same standard)- Work that one out!

AutoCAD, luxury :-P
It was I-DEAS running in unix. Complete pig to work with in every way we needed to.

To be honest the biggest nice change switching to windows and Solidworks was being able to save files in a common fashion rather than having 2 file systems.

andrewsmith

13-12-10, 07:34 PM

AutoCAD, luxury :-P
It was I-DEAS running in unix. Complete pig to work with in every way we needed to.

To be honest the biggest nice change switching to windows and Solidworks was being able to save files in a common fashion rather than having 2 file systems.

Sorry Chris I can't resist, was it through it being a Yorkshire Uni?

FatHLHG2uGY

TazDaz

13-12-10, 07:54 PM

So, out of interest which degrees will result in a job?

I don't have a crystal ball, but anything analytical in terms of numbers will put you in good stead for getting a job.

I wouldn't say it was a cantankerous view - simply my view.

lukemillar

13-12-10, 08:30 PM

I don't have a crystal ball, but anything analytical in terms of numbers will put you in good stead for getting a job.

:rolleyes:

There isn't a single degree which will put you in good stead for getting a job. There are too many variables involved. By your own rational, if Mr Media Studies walks out of uni and into a junior position at the BBC, does that render his degree meaningful? Likewise, If Miss Engineer can't find any work and has to move back in with her parents, presumably her degree was a waste of time?

yorkie_chris

13-12-10, 08:38 PM

Specialone

13-12-10, 09:00 PM

You can have all the degrees you want, but if you dont sell yourself in a interview, they become meaningless to a degree then (see what i did there:))
Your personality still needs to get over to the interviewer that you're the right person for the job, but its probably the degree that will get you the interview in the first place.

Bri w

13-12-10, 09:05 PM

No degree will "result" in a job, but you'd hope the degrees which serve as the first step of professions would have a good chance of success in finding jobs to develop in those professions. I.e medicine, engineering.

Depending on the job, the degree will get you past the paper sift.

You can have all the degrees you want, but if you dont sell yourself in a interview, they become meaningless to a degree then (see what i did there:))
Your personality still needs to get over to the interviewer that you're the right person for the job, but its probably the degree that will get you the interview in the first place.

And having got past the paper sift, and now competing with others with similar qualifications its who you are that will get you the job.

Sid Squid

13-12-10, 09:21 PM

larigos

13-12-10, 09:30 PM

BTW it seems very strongly that the discussions here are being had between those that went to university and those that didn’t.

You mean those that went to uni, and those that paid for you to go.

Sorry I paid my way on every course I have done. Working full time all the time and studying. As well as paying my fees etc. I would say that some of the perceived degrees should be subsidised to support industry etc. However, ceramics etc all have there place - wedgewood, Worcester etc all helped the economy at somepoint.

Bluefish

13-12-10, 09:53 PM

[QUOTE=larigos;2440973]Sorry I paid my way on every course I have done. Working full time all the time and studying. As well as paying my fees etc. I would say that some of the perceived degrees should be subsidised to support industry etc. QUOTE]

Methinks you miss the point, i believe all of the degrees are subsidised, and now they are cutting SOME or MOST of the subsidy so students will have to pay more of the bill themselves, and they don't want to pay for themselves :-({|=, they believe the taxpayer should pay for them to go to uni.
Well guess what?, the taxpayer don't want to :smt092.

Kilted Ginger

13-12-10, 10:11 PM

If you want "further education" and cant afford to pay for it then borrow and pay it off when you graduate. If you dont think your eventual job will allow you to pay off the loan then rethink your further education. Or do what i did and get a job, then pay for your own further education at evening class, day release or distance learning.

Further education is a privilege not a right. get over yourself.

As for the protests and violence, everyone that turned up with balaclavas, hidden faces or protective headgear obviously ready for a fight should have been tasered and arrested before they had time to cause bother.

Bri w

13-12-10, 10:13 PM

TazDaz

13-12-10, 10:24 PM

:rolleyes:

There isn't a single degree which will put you in good stead for getting a job. There are too many variables involved. By your own rational, if Mr Media Studies walks out of uni and into a junior position at the BBC, does that render his degree meaningful? Likewise, If Miss Engineer can't find any work and has to move back in with her parents, presumably her degree was a waste of time?

An engineering degree will ultimately put someone in good stead of getting a job in engineering as in there is an industry there. I'm not on about a specific job for a specific person - talking about generally more doors will open as someone has studied to be an engineer, and there is a job role "engineer" so to speak.

A degree in something narrow, such as 12th century art, is unlikely to open up many doors as there simply isn't many jobs out there which deal with 12 centure art is there?

That explained any better...?

Filipe M.

13-12-10, 10:49 PM

An engineering degree will ultimately put someone in good stead of getting a job in engineering as in there is an industry there. I'm not on about a specific job for a specific person - talking about generally more doors will open as someone has studied to be an engineer, and there is a job role "engineer" so to speak.

A degree in something narrow, such as 12th century art, is unlikely to open up many doors as there simply isn't many jobs out there which deal with 12 centure art is there?

That explained any better...?

Museums don't run themselves, books don't write themselves, and classes don't teach themselves.

As for your "engineers" (read: people with engineering degrees), you can find them pretty much anywhere, including Tescos, McDonalds, *insert your favourite supermarket or fast food restaurant here*.

;)

Milky Bar Kid

13-12-10, 11:22 PM

yorkie_chris

13-12-10, 11:29 PM

everyone that turned up with protective headgear obviously ready for a fight should have been tasered

The police? ;)

Bluefish

13-12-10, 11:53 PM

The police? ;)

Especially them, lol. Edit, encitement to riot?.

lukemillar

14-12-10, 12:17 AM

That explained any better...?

Not really. I'd be interested in what % of engineering students around the country, complete their degree and then fail to gain meaningful employment in the "engineering industry". I would actually wager the % of 12th Century Art students gaining meaningful employment is actually far high is it is a much more specific direction.

TBH, I'm not really down on engineering students/degrees or for that matter any degree as furthering knowledge can only be a good thing (NB. p!ssing it up against the wall isn't further your education). What annoys me is how people rubbish degree's in the arts, with no real grasp on the subject itself. Unless Mr YC has already completed a degree in pottery, (prior to his engineering degree) then I can't see how he is in anyway informed enough to judge it as 'pointless'.

BigBaddad

14-12-10, 08:46 AM

Students and Scousers...what's the difference? Both work shy scroungers.

14-12-10, 11:25 AM

Students and Scousers...what's the difference? Both work shy scroungers.

How long did it take you to make up that one:rolleyes:

MisterTommyH

14-12-10, 01:15 PM

I'd be interested in what % of engineering students around the country, complete their degree and then fail to gain meaningful employment in the "engineering industry".

The latest figures published by ECuk (www.engc.org.uk (http://www.engc.org.uk/); Digest of Engineering Statistics 2003-4), show that in 2001, 62% of engineering graduates were in full time employment compared with only 56% of all graduates. Analysis of the University of Durham statistics for 2003 graduates in engineering show that 70.2% were in full time employment and another 6% were employed part time. At least 63% of those employed were in engineering posts. It is possible that up to another 16% could be in engineering work as they were employed in "property development and related industries". Financial services accounted only for about 6% of the Durham engineering graduates in 2003. The ECuk survey showed that almost twice as many engineering graduates were working in professional posts than the all-graduate population. The report concludes that graduate engineers are more likely to start their careers as technical specialists and only move to management later in their careers.

Hows that?

(Ps sorry about the colour - something strange going on with my browser.

MisterTommyH

14-12-10, 01:32 PM

To sum up:
in 2001 Nationally 56% of all graduates had a full time job compared to 62% of engineering graduates.

In 2003 Durham engineering graduates - 70.2% FT employment, 6% PT employment. Of those 63% worked in engineering or 79% working in relevant jobs if you include property (which accounts for most of the civil and structural engineers, mechanical engineers working for steelwork fabricators etc.)

And the big statistic - 100% more engineering graduates were in professional jobs compared to all graduates.

Filipe M.

14-12-10, 02:25 PM

Have some more statistics then:

In 2003, the UK unemployment rate was 5.20%. In 2010 (2009 data), it was 7.60%, or a 46% increase relative to 2003, and the full 2010 data haven't yet been compiled. The increase from 2009 (2008 data) and 2010 was 35.71%, and with the crisis hitting harder on the beginning of 2010, a very simplistic forecast tells you can pretty much expect this rate to stay the same, for a 10.3% unemployment rate in 2011 (2010 data), which will then represent a staggering 98% unemployment rise in relation to 2003.

How many of those 98% do you think come from jobs where there are more people to do it (a.k.a your engineers, because in face of those 79% employment rate in 2003 everybody and their dog must have thought it wasn't a pointless degree and followed it) than the so-called mickey mouse degrees like pottery, with a lot less students and actively employed people?

So if you take your 100% more engineers in full time jobs in 2003, you'll probably find that 98% of all of them are out of a job currently, and that makes up for a larger part of the population than the non-engineering degrees that didn't have a full-time job to start with.

Disclaimer: the unemployment figures up to the 2009 data are not made up by me and can be consulted here (http://www.indexmundi.com/united_kingdom/unemployment_rate.html). The 2010 prediction is just that, a simplistic forecast created for the simple purpose of illustrating a point, which ultimately is "there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics".
Gotta love them. You can pretty much do whatever you want with them, and you don't even need a degree, and the sheer complexity of the number thrown around will confuse pretty much 99% of the population to the point they won't even notice the flaws behind some of the "logic". :rolleyes:

Sudoxe

14-12-10, 03:34 PM

Police drag man from wheelchair during the protests. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11987395)

Real classy guys, we should be proud of you. :evil:

kaivalagi

14-12-10, 06:05 PM

No matter what the circumstance and how much provocation was involved that is just unacceptable, I am watching the news on this with some interest!

Right now I am not sure what to think overall other than this country wants everyone to shut-up unless spoken to as it were, vocal protesting is just not accepted it seems, freedom...ha, that's a joke

Bluefish

14-12-10, 06:45 PM

FFS, beyond belief, you can see one copper dragging the other two away from the scene. Maybe he had no tax or insurance, bunch of ... insert favourite expletives.

Biker Biggles

14-12-10, 08:08 PM

Not being a graduate myself I feel a little overpowered by the highly intellectual points made in this thread,but I would like to make you aware that 76% of statistics are made up.

MisterTommyH

14-12-10, 08:13 PM

Not being a graduate myself I feel a little overpowered by the highly intellectual points made in this thread,but I would like to make you aware that 76% of statistics are made up.

Haha, I only posted the stats because someone said that they'd like to see them.

If you want to check them out there's a link to the engineering council website in the post.

metalmonkey

15-12-10, 12:38 AM

It doesn't really matter what stats say tbh as pointed out them are easily changed to favour either argument...

Getting back to the point which clearly that the Lib Dems, have gone back on what they said and to cynics out there they lied to get the vote.

How can anyone ever trust what Nick Clegg or any of them ever say again? A man is as good as his word and he broke his. Is it any wonder there are issues about what is going on? If those in power are so easily able to get away with lying and breaking of trust what kind of example are they really setting to not only to young people, but the population as a whole? Is not about time time someone stood up to these lying c****

Violence is totally the wrong way to go to about anything on anything level, it exhibits so many bad qualities about the people involved in violence of any kind, but yet again look to the quality of the leadership.

This vote fee increase will not affect those making this vote, their families or peers they are the rich people they don't give a s*** about the regular people we don't need any sodding stats to tell us that.

Yes the country is messed up, but why should the poor people have to pay to keep rich people in place and power whilst the "authorities" and associated agencies are quite clearly using any kind of force to attack people taking part in a legitimate protest against a political agenda for which they legally voted against.

Now someone is standing up to government, people are moaning about it. Don't people remember the fuel protest, has anyone read the latest report the cost of living is going out of control and inflation is well out of control and going to get a lot worse.

As a country we are social developing backwards, the divide between rich and poor is increasing a lot faster, the amount of children in poverty is increasing etc. Education will some be only for rich and don't say well it only cost £10 a week or whatever to pay back that is another lie, add interest ect its ball and chain around young people’s neck.

Want to buy a house with student loan? So the average loan will be in some years 50k, well that off whatever you afford to buy no young person honest and working person will ever be afford to own their house. Now think about...

I guess my main point is stop taxing young people, leave them to develop how is right that someone has to endure such a debt as a young person. There is almost no alternative, most other options have been removed by the government, so what now?

Its an ill thought policy with no really alternatives given in the development and education of young people. Some serious thought needs to given to the social development of our society and removing education is clearly not the way forward to further our society, never forget we are all so similar it just we see the world in different ways and thus having different approach on how learn and develop as an individual.

PsychoCannon

15-12-10, 10:45 AM

Ermmm the guy in the wheel chair was moved out of the way of a Horse charge for his own saftey as he was on the front lines. (TWICE)

If you look around you'll find plenty of pics of him being escorted away until someone gets a camera on him then suddently he starts flipping out like a kipper out of water.

Check the guys website as well, he's professional protester and a complete nut case to boot.

454697819

15-12-10, 11:25 AM

pookie

15-12-10, 12:11 PM

expect more unrest as House of Cards has approved the rise in tuition fees..

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6BD5TO20101215?feedType=nl&feedName=uktopnewsearly

No suprise there then !

kaivalagi

15-12-10, 12:40 PM

I'm not siding with him 100% but you have got to read this to understand where he is coming from...
Jody McIntyre : Who’s apathetic now? (http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2010/12/15/jody-mcintyre-who%E2%80%99s-apathetic-now/)

edit: from the comments:

Jennie Kermode
As a sometime wheelchair user myself (the severity of my walking difficulties varies), I would like to add that if I were dragged out of my wheelchair and across the ground like that I would have a number of broken bones. People use wheelchairs for all sorts of reasons and the police should not assume that an obviously disabled person is as resilient as anyone else. Like Jody, I have spent my life campaigning against injustice, but in the light of incidents like this I feel I have lost my democratic right to demonstrate.

Peter Reynolds
Well done Jody.
I completely disagree with you on the tuition fee proposals. I think they're more than fair but I stand shoulder to shoulder with you against the disgusting police tactics at the protest. I despair at the oligarchy of policticans and the media which is hell bent on repression and controlling the news agenda in an entirely self-serving way. Without the violence you suffered you wouldn't be writing in The Independent today. The editor would have given the space to one of his chums.
Keep up the good work. You are an example to us all

PsychoCannon

15-12-10, 12:44 PM

Indeed!
The guy in the chair does have a progressive ilness that will kill him early which is sad but it's no excuse for the way he's acting.
He can walk though with difficulty (walked 7 flights of stairs up to the roof for the last protest) and Richard Littlejohn is in hot water for describing him as Andy from Little Britain.

It's more his blog post that annoys me though, the guys a complete head case who attends protests for the hell of it and doesn't care what the cause is and is totally detached from reality.

The only other big incident seems to be the brain damaged student, lots of press about the claims it was a police baton, but now it's looking like he got hit in the back of the head by one of the concrete blocks that the "students" had been throwing at the police (causing several serious injuries to police), the press seem to be silent over it....I guess protesters hurt proteser doesn't sound as good as police hurt protester.

don't get me wrong I'm sure a few innocent bystanders may have been hurt but I find it hard to take people seriously when they claim to be innocent and caught up in it all when the "Kettling" went on many HOURS after violence errupted which was predicatable given the last two going the exact same way...and the kettlign was placed on Parliment square...which was occupied when protesters used Nail studded boards and scafolding poles to break through police lines (Again causing serious injuries and dragging a police rider from his horse)

If you follow that lot then regardless of if you threw one of the road flares (some tapped with deodourant cans to try and make improvised explosives), no doubt full as I doubt the students would have used them prior to trying to make bombs out of them, or just followed, you can hardly claim to be innocent or supprised when you get hurt standing on the front lines as this brain damaged student did.

kaivalagi

15-12-10, 12:52 PM

It's not black and white though is it....he has a right to protest, maybe he thinks it's all just plain wrong?

So, kettling is not suitable for wheelchair bound people...should that mean a person in a wheel chair can't be in a protest...

Tricky one

As said before I am not 100% with this guy but do feel that had the police not been so forceful there may have been much less violence and "push back"...hindsight is a wonderful thing though, at the time maybe the Police felt they had no other options. A messy situation for sure

PsychoCannon

15-12-10, 12:57 PM

Jody McIntyre : Who’s apathetic now? (http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2010/12/15/jody-mcintyre-who%E2%80%99s-apathetic-now/)
Not siding with him 100% but you have got to read this to understand where he is coming from...

From his own blog
http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/

"
When we reached the front, the batons began to fly. One came landing straight onto my left shoulder, sending a sharp, shooting pain down my arm. Others were taking blows to the head. Children, women, men, all being brutalised by the police. Then the horses came, horses that could easily kill people, but we would not budge. We held our ground.
Suddenly, four policemen grabbed my shoulders and pulled me out of my wheelchair. My friends and younger brother struggled to pull me back, but were beaten away with batons. The police carried me away. Around five minutes later, my younger brother was also forced through, the wheelchair still in his hands.
"

Photos of this incident (Please note the police are under fire from missles and hand to hand fighting at this point trying to get this guy to saftey from the front line.
http://www.mitchell-images.com/#/jody-mcintyre/4546538655 (http://www.mitchell-images.com/#/jody-mcintyre/4546538655)

The police are about to deploy horses to dispurse the crowd and want to get him to saftey, not stop him protesting..

Then several hours later at another location the source of the video and from his blog:

"Eventually, we found ourselves back at Parliament Square, this time approaching from the side of the now-infamous Millbank (http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/week-72-tory-party-hq/). Riot police came charging our way, but now they looked weak. Mounted police were just behind, waiting to charge.
Somehow, me and Finlay managed to weave our way through the police line. We found ourselves in a large no-mans-land, in between the riot police trying to stop the crowd, and the police horses getting ready to charge. I turned in my wheelchair to face the police. “Move out of the way!” one of the mounted police shouted at me. I shook my head.
From the corner of my eye, I spotted one of the policemen from the earlier incident. He recognised me immediately. Officer KF936 came charging towards me. Tipping the wheelchair to the side, he pushed me onto the concrete, before grabbing my arms and dragging me across the road. The crowd of 200 ran and surrounded him. I got back up and stood in front of the horses."

Now you tell me you take this seriously?
Even the video disproves this fantasy as his wheel chair is not tipped over and he is fighting the police who are trying to remove him from between a Violent crowd and yet another horse charge.

The police took several very serious casualties during this riot and fantasy land idiots get far too much media credability.

Somehow weaved our way through?
You mean with the help of the people using nail studded boards, improvised explosives and scafolding poles as spears?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/14/daily-mail-richard-littlejohn-jody-mcintyre

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/london_tuition_fee_protest.html

kaivalagi

15-12-10, 01:11 PM

Thanks for that, much appreciated, especially those pics from mitchell-images, very telling...more reading to do between the lines me thinks.....

It seems then that the public sway for someone who is disabled is purely because he is disabled and not because of his actions, and because of this a lot of the detail is getting lost in the media hype.

yorkie_chris

15-12-10, 05:58 PM

I find it hard to take people seriously when they claim to be innocent and caught up in it all when the "Kettling" went on many HOURS after violence errupted which was predicatable given the last two going the exact same way...and the kettlign was placed on Parliment square...which was occupied when protesters used Nail studded boards and scafolding poles to break through police lines (Again causing serious injuries and dragging a police rider from his horse)

If you follow that lot then regardless of if you threw one of the road flares (some tapped with deodourant cans to try and make improvised explosives), no doubt full as I doubt the students would have used them prior to trying to make bombs out of them, or just followed, you can hardly claim to be innocent or supprised when you get hurt standing on the front lines as this brain damaged student did.

...Badly, so they were probably arts students... If they even cared, and were not just there for a ruck. A lot of people seem to have a very funny idea about the cleanliness habits of students, this isn't the sixties with a bunch of unwashed hippies. Most of them are a right bunch of preening tarts!

But anyway you CAN claim to be innocent for standing wherever the hell you like, until proven guilty of something.

How many times has it been on the news "we just wanted out so we went to the police lines to see if they'd let us go". Hey presto, the least warry ones are all of a sudden at the front. There have been a hell of a lot of images of impassive and not at all aggressive people stood next to lines of armed police.

It's not black and white though is it....he has a right to protest, maybe he thinks it's all just plain wrong?

So, kettling is not suitable for wheelchair bound people...should that mean a person in a wheel chair can't be in a protest...

It means kettling is not suitable for protests.

15-12-10, 06:11 PM

I don't understand the outcry about using water cannons. Or perhaps I do, as it looks like a lot of these rioters are allergic to water.

MisterTommyH

15-12-10, 06:52 PM

It means kettling is not suitable for protests.

So from recent experiance it's a choice of kettling, or letting themprotesters what they want, which resulted in the ruining of an office block and fire extinguishers being thrown from the roof onto the crowd below.

Because they can be trusted to have a peaceful protest if the police don't overreact (!)

andrewsmith

15-12-10, 07:00 PM

...Badly, so they were probably arts students... If they even cared, and were not just there for a ruck. A lot of people seem to have a very funny idea about the cleanliness habits of students, this isn't the sixties with a bunch of unwashed hippies. Most of them are a right bunch of preening tarts!

But anyway you CAN claim to be innocent for standing wherever the hell you like, until proven guilty of something.

How many times has it been on the news "we just wanted out so we went to the police lines to see if they'd let us go". Hey presto, the least warry ones are all of a sudden at the front. There have been a hell of a lot of images of impassive and not at all aggressive people stood next to lines of armed police.

It means kettling is not suitable for protests.

As Chris said a lot of them are preened t***s. Like so:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/162746038_edf61e432f.jpg

This is how Durham Uni defines the stereotypes at uni's http://www.durhamstudent.co.uk/resources/durham-stereotypes#rah

There is a lot of people that were there to cause trouble (the damage at Parliament Sq truth to this), like that a***hole in a wheelchair ("I was innocent" yeah right, and I'm a female stripper!).

The evidence from the G20 and this proves Kettling causes violence, as your pushing 20, 30, 40 or whatever thousand amount of people into a small area, some thing is going to kick off.

They are considering using water cannons now aswel. That is a massive present deterrent that stops the need for kettling.

Filipe M.

15-12-10, 07:03 PM

So from recent experiance it's a choice of kettling, or letting themprotesters what they want, which resulted in the ruining of an office block and fire extinguishers being thrown from the roof onto the crowd below.

Because they can be trusted to have a peaceful protest if the police don't overreact (!)

Kettling only gives the mob more power, not only because there's a lot of angry people in a small area, but because they become angrier due to frustration. Has anyone tried dispersing them instead? Come on, this isn't rocket science... oh wait, maybe it's taught in mickey mouse degrees! :lol:

andrewsmith

15-12-10, 07:04 PM

So from recent experiance it's a choice of kettling, or letting themprotesters what they want, which resulted in the ruining of an office block and fire extinguishers being thrown from the roof onto the crowd below.

Because they can be trusted to have a peaceful protest if the police don't overreact (!)

That was the people there to cause trouble, and the police did not have a large enough presence around the building (which was, well known to be the end of the protest route).

Again this argument will end in Godwins' law eventually, but the Met should be used to that type of protest the May day riots (protests) were always going to result in trouble and they protected the areas that were the tragets

MisterTommyH

15-12-10, 07:18 PM

My point being that at all these marches there are people there to cause trouble. What would you have them do? Just let them cause the trouble?

People out to cause trouble don't have sign round their necks so they can't filter people out until they've done something.

All the stuff last week was caused by people there to cause trouble, but I can't see a way they can differentiate without getting accused of some '-ism' or other.

Filipe M.

15-12-10, 08:42 PM

People out to cause trouble don't have sign round their necks so they can't filter people out until they've done something.

I'd say the balaclavas and hoods are better than a sign round their necks, but I see where you're coming from. They might say it's because it's cold outside!

yorkie_chris

15-12-10, 10:04 PM

People out to cause trouble don't have sign round their necks so they can't filter people out until they've done something.

Oi ****, yeah, you on the sportsbike? Intending on breaking some speed limits were we? You're nicked son.

The idea of policing is to arrest people who've done something illegal so a case can be brought to trial and them punished. You can't just wholesale punish a group of protesters just because some among them are intent on causing trouble.

yorkie_chris

15-12-10, 10:14 PM

So from recent experiance it's a choice of kettling, or letting themprotesters what they want, which resulted in the ruining of an office block and fire extinguishers being thrown from the roof onto the crowd below.

Because they can be trusted to have a peaceful protest if the police don't overreact (!)

An extreme view is that if you are being held against your will it's perfectly natural to try and escape the situation with as much violence is necessary.

Which if you were to take an extreme view, that's all kettling is. It's not a lawful arrest.

I daresay you may, if having engaged in lawful and peaceful protest and then attempting to go about your business, then found your path in every direction to be blocked... become somewhat angry.
Even if you seem to support the detention of innocent people when talking about it on the net.

MisterTommyH

15-12-10, 10:36 PM

I don't think policing is to arrest people who've done something illegal, in whole at least. A large part of it is to prevent crime and maintain public order. And at these events there is a a large possibility that public order will break down - It has done so at recent events, both where police have been present and therefore accused of causing the unrest, and where they were so under prepared that they couldn't have possibly incited the unrest, so they are criticised for that. I also think that the better situation was where people were kept at street level, rather than when they got into buildings and up on roofs where they could throw stuff.

I haven't ever been in a kettle, and I don't wish to be. I do agree that could be very scary but the police are in an un-tenable situation here where they can just let the unrest happen and attempt to clean it up later, or attempt to control the situation. To me the kettling option is the lesser of two evils.

PsychoCannon

16-12-10, 09:51 AM

Damned if you do damned if you don't :)
Kettling (a press term) tends to go on after violence has started AND the protest has deviated from the pre-arranged route and the police (who are out numbered 100's to one) feel the need to contain the damage.

The alternative is running riots with widespread damage which the police took a lot of flack for.
It seems they can't do anything right =p

This is where the water cannon are coming in, a lot of people are arguing that "kettling" is only required because police are hand-tied and can't deal with crowds that go violent any other way and want the tools they use in Europe (Water cannon, CS gas and Baton rounds) which of course most people in the UK would choke on their tea to hear suggested but like I say, what ya going to do =p

Best sollution would be to put the onus on the student body (Namely the idiots that they call leaders and representatives that refuse to condem the violence and instead come out with idiot statements like It's ok because it's self defence against the police trying to stop us protesting....) on policing their own members like most other unions
You get a few burly guys in florescents to go with the crowd and...have a word with trouble makers.

Instead we have the opposite, there's a video out of students subduing an idiot throwing a molotov at police lines only to have the 3 people who tried to stop him decended on by dozens of thugs who rescue the idiot and walk off.
Result is genuine and intelligent students simply give up and go home early or don't attend at all (the last protest was a complete flop with very few attendants and oddly the trouble makers seemed unwilling to start fights and throw bombs without a crowd of genuine students to hide in...) while the trouble makers take over, run riot, and ruin it for everyone.

If the students really hate how the police deal with it, then pull your damn socks up and deal with it yourselves so they don't have to.
That will win a LOT of respect from all quaters and proove they are serious.

davepreston

16-12-10, 04:28 PM

kaivalagi

16-12-10, 05:47 PM

simple solution
ban students full stop, i mean no universities just go get a job, there all tax robbing barstewards anyway most wouldnt know a days work if it kicked them in the head, on the job training then they will be productive instead of little criminal riotus gits, ohhh no better idea, pay or do service, thats it you can either pay for uni or do 2 years in the forces your call, and make it 10 grand a year

Not sure I agree with everything you've said but I'm sure you didn't really mean it. Some jobs really do require fundamentals to be understood and also proof of the learning ability in certain arenas, which some degrees provide...but the doing 2 years national service and then getting uni for free isn't such a bad idea :)

If that was an option when I went and if uni would have cost me I would have gone for that...

davepreston

16-12-10, 05:53 PM

yea the first bit was a giggle but i was serious about the second, pay or serve your country, sounds like a fair enough compromise to me
and for those due to medical reasons unfit to serve there are plenty of other roles that could be used to "serve your time"

andrewsmith

16-12-10, 05:58 PM

Icanopit

16-12-10, 06:18 PM

Ban the Burqua and ALL other temporary face/head coverings at all demonstrations and large group gatherings.

Issue police marksmen with high powered water pistols, loaded with a non harming semi permanent vegetable type dye, the pistols should have a camera that records the shots, to be used as reliable evidence if prosecution as sought. Changing the dye colour for different areas and events.

In short Stain and Name. :smt071

JOHN

yorkie_chris

16-12-10, 07:09 PM

Best sollution would be to put the onus on the student body (Namely the idiots that they call leaders and representatives that refuse to condem the violence and instead come out with idiot statements like It's ok because it's self defence against the police trying to stop us protesting....)

Please see my post from earlier on in this thread quoting IIRC the president of the NUS condemning this violence.

Also, the NUS or whoever has no power to tell people what to do, the people at the protests are NOT necessarily students at all. All they can do is urge their members who turn up to do so peacefully.