Continuous Insurance enforcement

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Agreed, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty...

In this case as per above, you are only guilty till that uninsured vehicle goes out onto the public road... so why put something into place, that will cost us the taxpayers money no doubt as it'll take hoardes of people to administer the forms and paperwork required to put this into place, when in reality theres already a system in place to deal with such offenders when they do actually commit a crime. i.e. ANPR.

The system currently in place i.e ANPR has major flaws in it. Not all roads have the camera's, not all police car's have the camera's etc

The ANPR system did and still does the exact same thing people are moaning about this new system for. It does catch criminals but it also makes criminals of innocent people as the database is still and will probably never be 100% correct. After all this information is input into the database by a human who of course will from time to time make mistakes. There are reports that the database is something like 30% inaccurate.

So we already have a system in place that can mean your guilty untill proven innocent yet the new one is a major big deal.

guess is they reckon running the 2 together will catch more? i dont know

[Stu]

Originally Posted by irons

The ANPR system ... It does catch criminals but it also makes criminals of innocent people as the database is still and will probably never be 100% correct.

That is a major flaw in your argument.
You have argued strongly that CIE is not a problem because it sends out reminders if your insurance runs out before your tax does (assuming vehicle off road) The problem is in that scenario we will still be a criminal, just maybe not prosecuted for it.

The dodgy info in ANPR leading to the Police stopping us, doesn't make us a criminal. (just inconvenience)

[yorkie_chris]

I accept being pulled over by the plod because of dodgy insurance data and given a producer or a quick call to my insurers as reasonable. It would probably delay me for 5 minutes and that sort of check would catch most criminals out.

I don't agree with the way they can impound vehicles and leave the owners liable for costs when innocent of any offence, but that's a separate argument.

I do however have a big problem with people being fined for NOT committing any offence.


There's a huge gap between what is "wrong" and what is "illegal" these days. It isn't "wrong" in the slightest to have a tax disc in a vehicle sat in your own garage. It doesn't harm anyone, if I want to waste my money on tax I'm not using it's my business. An unjust law is no law at all, and bullsh*t like this just removes peoples respect for the law, if they make you break one, you might as well break them all.

Originally Posted by Stu

That is a major flaw in your argument.
You have argued strongly that CIE is not a problem because it sends out reminders if your insurance runs out before your tax does (assuming vehicle off road) The problem is in that scenario we will still be a criminal, just maybe not prosecuted for it.

The dodgy info in ANPR leading to the Police stopping us, doesn't make us a criminal. (just inconvenience)

be a criminal and not prosecuted? because you get a reminder letter does not make you a criminal so i disagree its a flaw in my argument.

The ANPR can be an inconvenience and so might the new system at times, where is the difference?

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

I accept being pulled over by the plod because of dodgy insurance data and given a producer or a quick call to my insurers as reasonable. It would probably delay me for 5 minutes and that sort of check would catch most criminals out.

I don't agree with the way they can impound vehicles and leave the owners liable for costs when innocent of any offence, but that's a separate argument.

I do however have a big problem with people being fined for NOT committing any offence.


There's a huge gap between what is "wrong" and what is "illegal" these days. It isn't "wrong" in the slightest to have a tax disc in a vehicle sat in your own garage. It doesn't harm anyone, if I want to waste my money on tax I'm not using it's my business. An unjust law is no law at all, and bullsh*t like this just removes peoples respect for the law, if they make you break one, you might as well break them all.

still waiting for your facts to back up your last post yorkie? i do laugh at what you write tho.
if you break one law you might as well break them all? so if you get a £100 fine over this you might as well go cut some ****s head off? you should be locked up dude
oh btw producer's are long gone, if you got pulled because of dodgy insurance data etc you may be walking home. I spent a night in romford nick because of inaccurate database's. ANPR is a good system but it does catch innocent people to

[MisterTommyH]

If there is a problem with the ANPR database and I get pulled over by the police, then it is sorted then and there by calling my insurers. I know I am ok with this as I know I have insurance. Also, I will not get pulled over by the police if I don't have insurance because I won't be using my bike/car. Those who are breaking the law will.

If there is a problem with the database and I get sent a letter, I am assumed guilty if I do not reply to the letter, which they have no proof was delivered (and it will not be recorded delivery) and which I may not even have received if the database is so wrong that they have my address wrong. There is no way I would know about this fine and am therefore made a criminal without my knowledge for not replying to something I never received. I also could be sent one of these letters for NOT using my car on the road, which would never happen with ANPR.

Perhaps this method would be more acceptable if the database was 100% accurate, but as Irons has stated, it is not, even though the CIE system assumes it is, and puts the onus on to drivers to proove the are innocent, not the other way round.

[yorkie_chris]

If you had the capability of a little abstract thought you may be able to understand my point even if you disagree with it.

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris

If you had the capability of a little abstract thought you may be able to understand my point even if you disagree with it.

mate i fully understand your point and the point everyone else has made which is why i said if the new law was going to affect me i may have a different view on it. i can see the flaws but i can also see the pro's for it. No different with the ANPR, it has its pro's but as ive found out first hand it can also make you spend 5 hours in a **** stinking cell on a friday night. Did i moan about it? not to much to be honest because i know in the grand scheme of it they are trying to do the right thing (altho dont get me wrong i was not laughing and joking with them)

dont hate the law's, hate the people who make these laws serve a purpose. i agree its not totally fair on innocent people, we should not have to do it but really there are bigger things to worry about in the world than this. it wont change anyone's life that much i doubt

I think YCs quote from Pastor Niemoller is highly relevant at this point - the continual introduction of laws like this will effectively make everyone unable to go anywhere without breaking some law, which is why we have to make a stand at this point.

As it stands, biking is under threat from all sides (although this law applies to cars, the number of car drivers with another one in the shed is a much smaller proportion than it is with bikes), and if we wish to continue riding, we will have to fight every step of the way for our continued ability to do so.

Originally Posted by irons

still waiting for your facts to back up your last post yorkie? i do laugh at what you write tho.
if you break one law you might as well break them all? so if you get a £100 fine over this you might as well go cut some ****s head off? you should be locked up dude
oh btw producer's are long gone, if you got pulled because of dodgy insurance data etc you may be walking home. I spent a night in romford nick because of inaccurate database's. ANPR is a good system but it does catch innocent people to

You talk guff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HO/RT1's (producers) are still very much alive and kicking, I issued one the other day.

If you are pulled and you are shown on PNC as having no insurance, it is usually sorted out by a call to MIB who will contact your insurance company and find out for us if you have a policy or are telling porkies. If we can't contact MIB then we issue producers....to quote you earlier FACT.

And you don't get a cell for having no insurance.....