farmer threatened to shoot my dog

[timwilky]

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

Yes. But you'd have to remove the shotgun I'd firmly shove so far up your ass you could smell it, if you even thought about threatening to shoot any kids of mine.

Having a shotgun license is a privilege; reliant on the fact you won't be a **** with it.

Where has this come from?, I have never threatened anyone with a shotgun, never mind kids.

The only reference I have made to kids is to say if my kids bust your window. You would expect me to pay. The same, your dog kills my stock, I expect you to pay

Originally Posted by timwilky

I have never shot a dog for the sake of it.

I shot killers or those in the process of killing, I have had to shoot ewes with their throats ripped and lambs with their rear legs hanging off.

Apart from the occasional clay, I enjoyed shooting game. I have enjoyed killing for the sake of it. ie, not to eat

well I do hope you have read in my pervious post that I agree with that side of this argument and when an animal is attackng your livelyhood then yes I can see why you'd feel the need to pull the trigger but it did sound for a moment that you are just a dog hunting physco.

also it doesnt seem entierly fair that, you've got people to pay for damages to your stock/land but then taken their dogs life. Surely tit for tat is fair enough but making them pay for it once their dog is dead seems more than harsh.

Originally Posted by timwilky

Where has this come from?, I have never threatened anyone with a shotgun, never mind kids.

The only reference I have made to kids is to say if my kids bust your window. You would expect me to pay. The same, your dog kills my stock, I expect you to pay

It goes without saying yeah. But having a gun doesn't entitle people to play the big man. We're all a big frickin' man when holding a gun

[ophic]

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

But having a gun doesn't entitle people to play the big man. We're all a big frickin' man when holding a gun

Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

Originally Posted by ophic

Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

[gruntygiggles]

Leedsmatt, I will try and give you my opinion on this, as with others, based on the knowledge gained through years of rural life.

Point 1, the law no longer only applies to sheep, it applies to all livestock. Your dog does not have to be actually chasing or attacking the livestock, it just has to be causing distress to the livestock. So, if I was walking my dogs in one field and they were running around off lead, causing animals in another field to be distressed and run away, the land owner would have the right to shoot them. Now, there's an argument here that if the dog owner is present, the land owner should first warn the dog owner and demand that the dog(s) be put on leads. This is perfectly resonable. If you cannot be seen by the land owner because you are behind a hedge, tree or whatever, he reserves the right to go ahead and shoot the dog without warning as he doesn't know you are there. The reason why your presence is cause for argument is that it is deemed unsafe for a landowner to shoot at a dog where the owner or handler is present to prevent human injury.

Point 2, the farmer that you encountered was IMO, despite being probably a little too aggressive in his approach, giving you the benefit of the doubt by warning you of what he would (within his rights) do if you didn't put your dog on a lead. There may have been no livestock around, but you must remember that he was asking you to put your dog on a lead. He was not holding the gun to it about to shoot it, he simply said he could and would if he had to. He didn't even have his gun with him, he made the choice to ask you to keep the dog on the lead.

It sounds to me from how you describe it, that he may have been looking out into that albeit small field, not seen you, but seen a dog come running out of an entrance to the field and that would worry any livestock owner.
You and I know your dog was only chasing a ball, but the farmer didn't know that. To compound his fears, when you attempted to call your dog back, it didn't come straight away. Regardless of us knowing that all dogs, even the most well behaved can be disobedient at times, the farmer would have seen this is as evidence that the dog was not under your control and so it could potentially worry him that your dog is on his land off lead.

Now.....I don't agree with the farmer in your case saying that he would go and get his gun, but then, on the other hand I have to say that I don't agree with the way you handled the situation either.

You were in a position where you were on someone else land, your dog was not totally under your control, had been seen by the farmer running at speed on his field and he, quite rightly came out to demand you put the dog on a lead. It was absolutely his right to do this. For you to be on his land, questioning his rights and arguing with him is bound to make him become defensive. Like I said, I don't agree with the things he said, but you did ask for it by jumping down his neck. Put yourself in his position and you'd realise that you are faced with a man that has a dog off lead that does not return when called and when you tell him to put the dog on a lead, he gives you an earful. It's his land.......you have no right to argue with him on it.

Point 3, regarding his threat to go get his gun and the way he acted, you could go to the police and make a complaint, but all they will do is ask did he directly threaten you. If he did not, which he didn't, they really won't do anything. The facts are there, you were on his land, your dog was off lead, he told you to put it on a lead, you tried but your dog was not responding straight away so he reiterrated his demand at which point you questioned his right to threaten to shoot your dog.

IMO, if a dog is not under the control of the handler, it is likely to be able to make its way onto any part of the land and therefore cause distress to livestock so the farmer would have been able to shoot your dog and defend that action in a court of law.

The farmer threatened your dog. He can do that.
You threatened to kick his ****ing teeth in.........you cannot do that.

If you took this to the police, you would be the one to get a warning, not the farmer. You threatened him directly on his land while he was exercising his legal right.

Yes, he took it a bit too far, but how would you react to someone threatening to kick your ****ing teeth in?

It may sound as though I am entirely on the farmers side here Leedsmatt and I want you to know that I am not. I am all for us being able to let our dogs run free and I totally understand what you are saying regarding the fact that you always take precautions, make Miya wait so that you can see the coast is clear and don't take her in fields with livestock. This is great and it's a shame you couldn't remain calm enough to tell this to the farmer. That said, I do understand why you reacted the way you did, it's just that getting into an argument is only ever going to make things worse. If you have stayed calm, got MIYA on the lead, let the farmer say his bit and then told him how you take precautions, would never allow her to scare his livestock and will make sure you won't throw her balls or let her go too far away from you when there are livestock nearby, he would most probably be happy to let you carry on and recognise you a being "ok" next time he sees you and Miya in his fields.

Stretchie and I have four dogs as most orgers know and two of them are collies. If we are anywhere near livestock, farmers keep a really close eye. I don't always keep them on leads even if I am in a field with livestock. I know they don't care for chasing sheep, cows or horses, so I just make a point of calling them back to me regularly, when they run off, I tell them to rest and they literally fall to the floor even they're 200 yards away. I have had a few run ins with farmers, but have always apologised and when they've seen how well behaved the dogs are, they react positively. I NEVER let the dogs anywhere near livestock and I think that is what helps. If I have to walk past them, I don't put leads on , but make them walk behind me (Stretchie does the same) and let them run off when we are well past.

It's a case of finding a good balance. No farmer should ever just shoot a dog because it is on his land, but the farmer in your case would be well within his rights to be suspicious of you after you threatened him.

I wouldn't say not to take Miya for walks on his land again, but I would say that it would be really good if you could make a visit to the farmer, apologise for the way you reacted and say that you just felt very defensive as you know that you always take steps to ensure that your dog doesn't cause distress to animals and your felt his threat of hooting her was unwarranted. Keep your cool, suck up your pride and just apologise. You'll probably find that he will too. I know a heck of a lot of farmers that are far worse than the one you are talking about and if someone can make the effort to appease them, they generally back down and so you can continue to walk Miya where you always have done.

If on the other hand you apologise and he has none of it, remaining hostile, then you can go to the police and file a complaint against him if he again threatens your dog. If this happens you can tell the police that you attempted an apology, but now feel that you cannot use a public right of way due to a threat made to your dog with no foundation (if he threatens your dog when it is not even there).

I'm sorry it's such a long post, but there are so many sides to this and neither you or the farmer were in the right or the wrong here.

Originally Posted by ophic

Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

dunno, it made sense to me.

Much was part of my argument in that 30mins. If I'd been taller than the 5ft f**k all that I am then no way would have acted so agressivly. Similarly like g2d says if i'd have had a right to bare arms he'd have maybe chosen this words more carefully at the risk of me turning and opening fire.

Anyway as on the whole the majority feel I should at least inform the police I now have done. I've spoken to the general advice line for my area to ask what their view of the incident is. I will be getting a call in the next half hour to discuss it further.

I wont quote your post grunty as the site prob has a bandwidth limit but its been read and fully understood. It actaully puts a lot of things in perspective about the incident. However I would like to make 2 counterpoints if I may.


1. His approach wasnt a friendly request as I feel your post implys. It was a verbal onslaught no words were polite all hostile with arms flailing demanding she be put on a lead. He must have repeated it 3 times all the while me acknowlaging him and both trying to catch the dog quite spooked by his outburst.

2. During the 30min argument/heated conversation which followed he slipped up informing me he had witnessed her on the stairs and by the gate. It wasnt until we entered the field (after he'd seen me check the coast was clear). and chuck the ball that he saw red and came shouting at me to teather her. So he didnt see her roaming the field and without me he had the whole picture and still reacted like he did.

I dont know if this alters your perspective at all, and in the whole I agree with what you have said I do know my reaction was too strong but as sad as it sounds Miya is my family and threaten anyones family and you'll get a strong reaction. As I've said in a pervious thred I bloody love that dog and in a way I'm proud that I stood up and defended her like I did. BUt at the same time the law doesnt take honor into account instead its your actions which matter and in which case I may have lost any legal standing I had just by reacting back. shame

[gruntygiggles]

Originally Posted by leedsmatt7

I wont quote your post grunty as the site prob has a bandwidth limit but its been read and fully understood. It actaully puts a lot of things in perspective about the incident. However I would like to make 2 counterpoints if I may.


1. His approach wasnt a friendly request as I feel your post implys. It was a verbal onslaught no words were polite all hostile with arms flailing demanding she be put on a lead. He must have repeated it 3 times all the while me acknowlaging him and both trying to catch the dog quite spooked by his outburst.

2. During the 30min argument/heated conversation which followed he slipped up informing me he had witnessed her on the stairs and by the gate. It wasnt until we entered the field (after he'd seen me check the coast was clear). and chuck the ball that he saw red and came shouting at me to teather her. So he didnt see her roaming the field and without me he had the whole picture and still reacted like he did.

I dont know if this alters your perspective at all, and in the whole I agree with what you have said I do know my reaction was too strong but as sad as it sounds Miya is my family and threaten anyones family and you'll get a strong reaction. As I've said in a pervious thred I bloody love that dog and in a way I'm proud that I stood up and defended her like I did. BUt at the same time the law doesnt take honor into account instead its your actions which matter and in which case I may have lost any legal standing I had just by reacting back. shame

Yep, both those points change my perspective as I could only initially comment on the information you gave in the OP. Of course, and like I said, his method was not good, but it was his right. I wouldn't have just apologised and moved on if he had approached me and my dogs in that way. I would have got the dogs on leads first, got him on side and then told him that although I understand his position, coming across a field like that and scaring the hell out of someone is no better than a dog scaring livestock, so maybe next time he could be a bit more patient.

EDIT: Obviously some people just can't be calmed down or see reason, so I do see why you got so aggitated.

As for the 30 min argument, I didn't know what was said in that and so didn;t know he was aware of you before Miya ran into the field. IMO, this would have been the perfect opportunity for you to say that if he had been watching you so closely, he would have seen that your dog was no threat to his livestock and so that threat was unfounded.

I'm like you with my dogs and so is Stretchie. I've torn strips off people before now for letting aggressive dogs run up and attack them, scare them etc. I'm not really scared of any dog and wouldn't get into an argument wither on my own or in an area where I didn't have at least some witnesses, but I think through my career experience, I've developed a way of sticking to tha facts, calling people out on their mistakes, staying calm and getting my point across.

Now........if you read the thread about animal cruelty.......

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=131752

.......you'll see that I had a horse that was stabbed in her stable by some inbred psycho that resulted in a horrific scar, many stitches and a broken Nasal bone. That person should count himself (or herself to be PC) lucky that they were never found. I honestly believe that if you'd put a knife in my hand and put him (or her) in front of me that day, I would have done something terrible. It would have been wrong of me and I'm not sure I would react that way now. Now I would probably just go out of my way to make the rest of that persons life a living hell, but then, I was young and I was desperate to hurt the person that hurt my horse.

I see your point of view and agree with it. I think the only reason I wrote such a long post was to try and get across the point that I did and explain them at the same time.

I hope you get a positive result from your reporting it. Keep us posted!

[yorkie_chris]

The guy was being a c##t beyond all shadow of a doubt. Manners cost nothing. I can totally understand your reaction. But perhaps a better course of action would have been to put it on the lead and then tell him there was no need to be rude about it. Then if he continues to be annoying you can argue until he swings for you and then be perfectly legally entitled to kick his f##kin teeth in until you are "no longer in fear for your life, your honor"

Informing the police is a really bad idea. You threatened him with violence which is never good. You'd be best off leaving that right out or this may backfire in a bad way.

Never threaten, if it's warranted, then get on with it and f##k off before the police arrive.