View Full Version : The Org Scottish Referendum
Dean, i'm sorry to say but you have already lost your job. do you think for one minuet that there will no be repercussions if the vote is no... Westminster will make Scotland's life hell for even daring to split the union. they are only keeping these jobs and convincing the employees to vote no in the hope of keeping their job, once the vote is over with they will wind up what they have already started years ago.
the MOD has been winding down the military presence in Scotland for decades and its not about to stop, in fact they will up their efforts after the referendum.
Spank86
12-09-14, 03:51 PM
By that logic Bibio, what do you think will happen after you vote yes?
carelesschucca
12-09-14, 03:53 PM
See Spank I win the bibio bingo! :D
Spank86
12-09-14, 03:58 PM
You do indeed.
I'm really intrigued, if Bib believes that westminster will purposefully hobble a valuable part of the Union what does he think will happen to Scotland as a nearby independent nation which needs to negotiate on Europe and national waters among other things?
if there does become an independent Scotland dont you think that they will be looking for people with Deans skills... and i'm not just talking about his famous cuddles.
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 04:11 PM
But will it actually become a more Caring nation and how will it do that without raising taxes I for one am thinking about this in a material way.
The simple answer is it won't. Firstly the SNP have no qualms about putting up taxes. That is what they mean by a fairer society [1]. Secondly, it's virtually impossible for Scotland to have the high tax and high standard of living society it dreams of while England have a Tory government in power, it's just too easy for companies and employees to move across the border to escape a high tax regime.
[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10920650/Alex-Salmonds-local-income-tax-to-cost-families-550-extra.html
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 04:19 PM
I WILL loose my job cause it will be moved to Gosport
Do it! We can start next years GM (the massacre kind) from Loomies!
carelesschucca
12-09-14, 04:29 PM
Do it! We can start next years GM (the massacre kind) from Loomies!
Na GM is about great roads with very little traffic not mediocre roads with lots of traffic :D
Sorry for the derail.
heheheee. i love this forum
It's all about the English.
Otherwise why split? Scotland pays it's way in the union, no more no less, it's far far more prosperous than it's wildest dreams when it entered the union and it has far better representation both than the equivalent number of English people and than the scots in their own country pre-union. All the stats look like lovely numbers but when you take it down to the bottom line Scottish spending and deficit (as a whole) is about on a par with the rest of the UK.
Scotland is more than capable of being it's own small somewhat successful country on a par with Ireland, I don't think anyone really doubts it, what everyone who sides with better together thinks is that we really are, better together.
No, england are better with us together, not Scotland.
Scotland contibute more to the coffers of Westminster than are spent. As 8.3 % of the populace, why are we not spending 8.3% of the miliatery budget in Scotland ???? I believe it to be around 5 % of the defence budget. How can this be described as fair? Scottish tax payers paid for London 2012, no money came from Westminster for the Commonwealth Games!
And what the nobility chose to do 300 years ago and dreamed of, was not decided by the people, it was decided by the elite. Westminster is still controlled by the elite. How many of the cabinet went to private school? How many are millionaires ? The Scottish parliament voted against a pay rise - westminster voted for an 11% increase on top of the 10% last time. Don't know about you, but I got 1% and had to fight for that. Would be nice to be able to vote yourself a 10% pay rise. It is a corrupt system and we in Scotland will be better off out of it. How many Scottish MP's got done for expenses claims scandal ???
Scottish spending and deficit (as a whole) is about on a par with the rest of the UK.
This is a LIE. You might get told that by the B(english)BC, but is not true. If you are making a decision on what you have learnt from newspapers and television, I can understand your mistake and believing we are better off together.
https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10428589_710054249076114_8729711815632224414_n.jpg ?oh=dfb0b5c1d0120d45f99ed537f7d9861b&oe=5483E3A9
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 04:41 PM
Na GM is about great roads with very little traffic not mediocre roads with lots of traffic :D
Sorry for the derail.
I know, that's what I meant, start from Loomies and head up to Kinlochleven :)
Spank86
12-09-14, 04:45 PM
Scottish spending and deficit (as a whole) is about on a par with the rest of the UK.
This is a LIE. You might get told that by the B(english)BC, but is not true. If you are making a decision on what you have learnt from newspapers and television, I can understand your mistake and believing we are better off together.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Q/pno/3
Let me pick some key figures out.
Budget balances (sans capital expenditure):
Scotland: deficit of 5.9 per cent of GDP including an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue.
whole UK: 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, 5.8 per cent of GDP.
Fiscal Balances WITH capital expenditure
Scotland: with geographic oil 8.3% of GDP
Uk as a whole: 7.3% of GDP.
So either way you look at it Scotland alone has a slightly higher deficit as a % of GDP compared to the union as a whole and by inference compared to the union without Scotland.
of course as two separate states there would be more burden on each in terms of public spending since organisations would have to be duplicated and so you could expect both figures to rise with an independent Scotland.
Next time you'd like to call me a liar I'd be obliged if you'd throw the statistics at me first.
How can we have a deficit when we can only spend the pocket money given us by Westminster ???
Spank86
12-09-14, 04:56 PM
How can we have a deficit when we can only spend the pocket money given us by Westminster ???
Because you can't and don't run the whole of Scotland on that money, that's just a portion of your public spending, the discretional spending on the whole. There's an awful lot more to it than that.
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 04:57 PM
Scotland contibute more to the coffers of Westminster than are spent.
So long as you overlook the last 2 years figures.
Even if you do the figures aren't a million miles out, the extra money spent on public services more or less equals the extra tax receipts from Scotland.
As 8.3 % of the populace, why are we not spending 8.3% of the miliatery budget in Scotland ???? I believe it to be around 5 % of the defence budget. How can this be described as fair?
Can't say I've looked into this one, but aren't we spending some of the budget in places like, you know, Afghanistan?
Scottish tax payers paid for London 2012, no money came from Westminster for the Commonwealth Games!
That makes about as much sense as saying English tax payers paid for the Edinburgh trams. While technically true it makes no real sense. Sports are a devolved matter, hence why it was paid for by the Scottish government.
And what the nobility chose to do 300 years ago and dreamed of, was not decided by the people, it was decided by the elite. Westminster is still controlled by the elite. How many of the cabinet went to private school? How many are millionaires ? The Scottish parliament voted against a pay rise - westminster voted for an 11% increase on top of the 10% last time. Don't know about you, but I got 1% and had to fight for that. Would be nice to be able to vote yourself a 10% pay rise. It is a corrupt system and we in Scotland will be better off out of it. How many Scottish MP's got done for expenses claims scandal ???
What happened 300 years ago, whether it be Culloden or the Act of Union has nothing to do with the situation we find ourselves in today. You can blame stuff on things that happened to your grand-parents, or maybe your great-grand-parents, but 10 generations removed it a bit of a stretch.
Also, I find the argument that Westminster is full of the elite while criticising pay rises amusing. Surely an MP should be well paid, after all we want to attract the top talent to the job. Unfortunately, anyone with the skills to progress up the political ranks would likely be paid better in the private sector (you only have to look at how much Tony Blair now earns to see that). In my opinion that is why we get left with a bunch of power hungry toffs to chose from.
Scottish spending and deficit (as a whole) is about on a par with the rest of the UK.
This is a LIE. You might get told that by the B(english)BC, but is not true. If you are making a decision on what you have learnt from newspapers and television, I can understand your mistake and believing we are better off together.
Like most statistics without knowing what the figures actually represent or the methodology in which they were gathered then they don't mean anything. Do you want to point out a specific issue with the Gers data?
I really don't care about any of these numbers, just i will argue them. There are lies, damn lies & then tehere's statistics. These numbers are created in England !
All i care about is having an elected parliment that I had a say in. In the last 50 years, how Scotland voted has had not effect on the outcome of a general election. take our votes out, since 1954, an the results will not change.
In 1979 maggie came into power and started the serious decline and neglect of Scotland. It has continued to this day. Are we getting billions for Dualling the A9 to save many lives of drivers and many motorcyclists - NO. Are Westminster build a train line to get to Birmingham 1/2 quicker ??? Not a fair system and never will be.
I honestly don't care any more about numbers, what currency, in or out europe, NHS, All I care about is in 2016 we will be an autonomous country controling our own destiny.
If your neighbour had a bigger house and a bigger family, would you let him come over over take your wages, buy a new car and then give you what he thought was enough to live on ??? I seriously doubt it. If Scotland were an independent country now, how many would vote to join the UK and give them control over everything ???
Scotland is a seperate country. We just want to decide our own future and our own spending.
Spank86
12-09-14, 05:16 PM
All i care about is having an elected parliment that I had a say in. In the last 50 years, how Scotland voted has had not effect on the outcome of a general election. take our votes out, since 1954, an the results will not change.
Our current one.
NO, you are wrong. Scotland voted virtually the same in the last 2 general elections !!!
Spank86
12-09-14, 05:21 PM
NO, you are wrong. Scotland voted virtually the same in the last 2 general elections !!!
If you take Scotland votes away you get a conservative majority of approximately 21. No coalition.
Prior to that of course we've had a Labour government for 12 or so years, exactly what Scotland voted for even if their votes weren't needed to swing the majority.
No pleasing some people.
Scotland is a seperate country. We just want to decide our own future and our own spending.
I think you've elegantly presented an argument for Scotland's independence based on how they couldn't do worse than the UK has done.
I await with great interest the results of Scotland independence on their education system.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/samaritans1-460x325.jpg
We have had a totally independent education system for more years than I can quote !!! So there will be zero change !
Spank86
12-09-14, 05:28 PM
Scotland makes the same difference that any other part of the UK with 8-9% of the population makes, well slightly more actually.
Scotland has got the party it voted for every time Labour were in power regardless of their votes not being the deciding factor, a bigger margin is better for Labour since they cant use the whip on every vote.
We have had a totally independent education system for more years than I can quote !!! So there will be zero change !
Oh dear. :p:D
I think you've elegantly presented an argument for Scotland's independence based on how they couldn't do worse than the UK has done.
I await with great interest the results of Scotland independence on their education system.
Thank you.
I hope we get a YES, because the backlash from the next four westminster governments is going to bring Scotland to its knees. :(
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 05:33 PM
I really don't care about any of these numbers, just i will argue them. There are lies, damn lies & then tehere's statistics. These numbers are created in England !
Ah, I see, trolling. :rolleyes:
All i care about is having an elected parliament that I had a say in. In the last 50 years, how Scotland voted has had not effect on the outcome of a general election. take our votes out, since 1954, an the results will not change.
That's a reasonable argument. Of course you'd not expect 10% of the vote to swing an election all that often by the time it's divided among Labour, Lib Dem and SNP.
I wonder where all the people who care about getting a representative democracy were hiding during the AV referendum. I guess having a more proportional representative government just isn't as sexy as FREEDOM!
I honestly don't care any more about numbers, what currency, in or out europe, NHS, All I care about is in 2016 we will be an autonomous country controling our own destiny.
Fair enough, if you are ready to accept any consequences then I can't fault you. The fact that you have the choice is part of what makes the UK great.
MisterTommyH
12-09-14, 05:39 PM
Someone said that not one Scottish vote has affected UK politics.... We'll thats a LIE!
Without Scottish votes in the UK parliament we would not have had the man who obliterated boom and bust, or his thunderbird puppet.
I have no issue with Scotland voting for independence. I believe they can do it - I believe they will be worse off, but not enough to argue about the fact. Do it, if you're worse off then deal with it, if you're better off then well done.
I want Scotland to stay because I know the uncertainly will be bad for the remainder of the UK, but accept that I have no say in that.
I hope that in the event of anything that does affect the UK I will have my say, but I don't hold out much hope. As an englishman I am among the most unrepresented in my country.
Scotland get's it's own parliament to control (some) of it's own matters, and gets to elect MPs to Westminster to vote on all matters affecting England. As do Wales and NI to a lesser extent. In my opinion any politician with an ounce of morality would recuse themselves from voting on any issue in Westminster that only affected the rest of the Union (i.e. a devolved power).
Finally, the way to get around the inequality is not to have a separate English parliament as well as Westminster, or regional parliaments. We already have more than enough politicians. While I believe the ones we have should be well paid I don't want to pay more and more and more... We have district council, county council, Westminster, MEPs.... christ, it's like when labour tried to get everyone out of unemployment by just making sure more people were employed by the civil service.
Go, and I wish you well, or Don't go, and stop voting on matters that don't affect you. I'll hope you'll stay. I honestly believe that we all are better together (even if you do get unfair representation).
I readily accept all consequences. We may be in sackcloth and ashes in 20 years time, but it will be by our own doing and not that of a government elected by a majority neighbouring country.
All of the UK voted against. But then again it was what was wanted by tory / labour. You can see the evidence of the use of mass media by both of the these now and then there was only really libdem oppostion.
I voted YES then, and will be doing so again (If you hadn't already guessed).
Someone said that not one Scottish vote has affected UK politics.... We'll thats a LIE!
Please see graphic I posted earlier, we are only a small percentage of the populace, 8.6 % but that includes all, not just voters.
How would we ever effect an outcome of a general election ???
If you fear a Tory government for the next 100 years - STOP VOTING FOR THEM. It is your responsibility not ours.
Spank86
12-09-14, 05:49 PM
How would we ever effect an outcome of a general election ???
well, If Scotland had left the union in 2009 we'd currently have a conservative majority, not a coalition.
Of course if all you see is which party wins you've failed to understand the system anyway, we don't elect governments, the Queen appoints them. We elect members of parliament.
And you think you would be better off !!!! Still disagree, not from numbers I have seen, but as stated previously - Do we believe numbers ??? Shovel of salt needed with all facts produced during the last month.
That's just nit picking, why don't you go through and check my spellings and grammar whilst your here?
Spank86
12-09-14, 05:56 PM
That's just nit picking, why don't you go through and check my spellings and grammar whilst your here?
I Really don't think I have the time.
I also don't believe it's nitpicking at all, it's a very important point and it's why Scotland has representation at a national level.
If you didn't elect MPs but simply elected a government there would be no reason for anyone to care about Scotland, as you elect MPs those MPs have a reason to work for Scottish interests.
We have seen these MP's at work recently. Towing the party line and doing as they are told.
They are not going to speak out as a whole and even then with only 9% of MP's from Scotland, if they all worked together (fat chance) they still would not be able to vote thru any changes to favour their constituents or country.
MisterTommyH
12-09-14, 06:06 PM
Please see graphic I posted earlier, we are only a small percentage of the populace, 8.6 % but that includes all, not just voters.
How would we ever effect an outcome of a general election ???
If you fear a Tory government for the next 100 years - STOP VOTING FOR THEM. It is your responsibility not ours.
When did I say I feared a Tory government? And there is more than one way to affect UK politics, its not just affecting the outcome of a general election (although I see your reasoning).
Scottish votes elected Scottish politicians to Scottish seats, and two of them then ruined our economy.
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:08 PM
We have seen these MP's at work recently. Towing the party line and doing as they are told.
Then I would strongly suggest voting for different ones.
They are not going to speak out as a whole and even then with only 9% of MP's from Scotland, if they all worked together (fat chance) they still would not be able to vote thru any changes to favour their constituents or country.
Well I only get 1 MP to look after my interests, that's a lot less than 9%.
Unless, since were both English, you believe I have more interests in common with a guy from Carlisle than any random scot would?
i like the Conservatives (yes i do live in on council estate and am Scottish) and i wish that the public would actually give them a chance.
if you look at history you will find that Labour gets us into debt and the Tories get us out but once the debts are paid off the voting public of the UK have never ever given the Tories a chance to see if they can use their new found wealth for the good and keep us out of debt.
i would like to see is an independent Scotland under Tory control now that would be something to see.
I think Cumbria, Northumberland and Durham would be better off joining an independent Scotland. They too are neglected by a largely SE England biased westminster.
Talk of increasing interest rates due to rising house prices !!! WTF. My last property lost 10% value over the last 10 years. I am sure there are no 26% rise in a terrace house in Wallsend ??? The decisions are made in London, for those living in London.
When we get Independence, lets wait 50 years and we'll see them trying to join :smt008
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:16 PM
We actually always vote for the party we should have had last time.
Labour are the perfect party for a recessions, spending public money on jobs and running up debt.
The Tories are better for the boom, cutting public jobs feeding workers back into the public sector and paying down the old debt incurred during the recessions.
Problem is we do it back to front and exacerbate boom and bust instead of controlling it.
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:17 PM
I think Cumbria, Northumberland and Durham would be better off joining an independent Scotland. They too are neglected by a largely SE England biased westminster.
Talk of increasing interest rates due to rising house prices !!! WTF. My last property lost 10% value over the last 10 years. I am sure there are no 26% rise in a terrace house in Wallsend ??? The decisions are made in London, for those living in London.
When we get Independence, lets wait 50 years and we'll see them trying to join :smt008
Talk of yes,
With interest rates at a historic low.
Talk of raising them by a % or so at most. Lots of savers would be very happy wherever they live and I'm pretty sure your house started a lot cheaper than ones in London. People just wanna move south.
i would like to see is an independent Scotland under Tory control now that would be something to see.
If in the 1st Independent Scottish Elections in 2016, the Scottish Tories won I would not be bothered. I have nothing against any party and come the elections in 2016 i will vote for the party offering the best policies for my family and the future of Scotland.
Salmond will probably retire and SNP get disbanded as there is no independence fight to hold them together.
people just want to move south because thats where the large majority of the wealth is. so the more wealth the more people want a slice which creates its own problem for the rest of the country.
People just wanna move south.
Not in your life would I move south. I chose to move 200 miles north 9 years ago and was the best decision of my life.
Savers - that would be nice ! All my wages go on living. I would love to have savings to earn interest. But food on the table and a roof over my head (and Gixxers) are more important.
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:28 PM
Savers - that would be nice ! All my wages go on living. I would love to have savings to earn interest. But food on the table and a roof over my head (and Gixxers) are more important.
I'd move south and holiday north then If I were you because I can afford a house, savings, and a triumph.
Of course the lack of wife and kids helps I just have a fallout to take care of and he's low maintenance,
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:30 PM
people just want to move south because thats where the large majority of the wealth is. so the more wealth the more people want a slice which creates its own problem for the rest of the country.
Wait, but I thought there was just as much wealth per head in Scotland?
I thought there was MORE per head? Should people not be moving north for the wealth, and the cheaper house prices, and the ... Rain?
:D:p
low basic interest rates are bad as that pushes up all the other financial costs. the price of everything started to rocket in just a few years after the basic rate was slashed. we need to raise interest rates again and not just by 1/4-1/2% but by 5-10% this would bring housing costs down again which in turn would stabilise wages and doing so would stabilise the cost of living but people would spend less on consumer products which is what the Gov dont want.
yes yes it would create negative equity for most folk but sooner or later the interest rates WILL rise and when they do they will rocket.
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:32 PM
I'm counting on it Bib, That will suit me nicely in a few years.
Quality of life is soooooo good up here, rather be a bit poorer and enjoy life.
After work (3.30 finish) went for a 1/2 hour blast around beautiful empty roads. You would wet yourself if you look at Crocketford to Balmaclellan road. (google map it) This is my local. ;-)
Is that why you don't want us to have it better ? Cos your already jealous ??? :mrgreen:
http://goo.gl/maps/M2wqU
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:34 PM
Unfortunately I'd still be working till 6 if I did my job up there.
not for long SIII coz if Scottish independence does work then the north of england will flock up here in their millions, its already happening as it is and to see this all you have to do is look at all the new housing developments going on in the past 10 years, there are more houses being built in Scotland that at any other time in history due the the huge influx of people heading north who are sick of living in mega city's and want a better way of life.
Unfortunately I'd still be working till 6 if I did my job up there.
thats ok as the nights are longer up here in the summer ;)
They'll still not come to D&G, nae money here. Even the polish leave after couple of years.
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:41 PM
thats ok as the nights are longer up here in the summer ;)
I've heard about Scottish summers.
What day do you have that on again?;)
Sid Squid
12-09-14, 06:50 PM
I sincerely hope the Scots (including my relatives that still live there) vote with their heads not their hearts. Scots are rightly proud to be Scottish - don't let your nationalistic pride be prostituted by the SNP into making them bigger fish in a smaller pond.
Over 5k miles on the bike this year - mostly local, mostly dry. How did you do ?
I sincerely hope the Scots (including my relatives that still live there) vote with their heads not their hearts. Scots are rightly proud to be Scottish - don't let your nationalistic pride be prostituted by the SNP into making them bigger fish in a smaller pond.
I get fed up with answering this one - :(
Vote for SCOTLAND - this is not a vote for SNP, or Salmond or any on party or policy.
Stop listening to the media and make an informed opinion, not one force fed to you by the BBC and printed media.
Policy will be decided after the YES vote, after negotiaitons, after we have independence. [-o<
Spank86
12-09-14, 06:58 PM
Over 5k miles on the bike this year - mostly local, mostly dry. How did you do ?
In Scotland?
700miles, mostly raining.
In Spain and France, about 3000 warm and dry, and I'm not sure in England but there was 1k getting to Scotland and back via lands end.
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x124/Spank86_Yarrr/e46b5e4ea09b2b16ccb32a0c8eae032c.jpg
questions for those that are happily married or living with a partner with children or not.
did you choose your partner/wife/husband with financial stability at the root of your relationship?
if times got hard would you give up your relationship to your partner/wife/husband?
if not then you are thinking with your heart and not your head. sometimes your emotions can be rewarding, maybe not at first when you have to set up your first home etc.etc but as the years go on then things usually get better.
well the same could be said for thinking with your heart rather than your head for an independent Scotland. you fall in love and then make things work.
SvNewbie
12-09-14, 07:01 PM
Stop listening to the media and make an informed opinion, not one force fed to you by the BBC and printed media.
Where would you suggest we get informed? Facebook?
this is not a vote for SNP, or Salmond or any on party or policy.
I get so fed up of hearing that from people whom in the same breath say they need independence to get away from the government they didn't vote for (i.e. the Tories).
You can't have it both ways.
:smt008 (to Bibio's post)
Where would you suggest we get informed? Facebook?
I get so fed up of hearing that from people whom in the same breath say they need independence to get away from the government they didn't vote for (i.e. the Tories).
You can't have it both ways.
No but it will be a governments WE voted for and choose. A government with the best interests of our 5.5 million people at the centre, not Inner / Outer London.
You can use whatever source you like, just don't listen to biased reporting by corporatition with their headquarters / bosses in London. I am boycotting the BBC until Xmas. Sick of their continued lies and bending of the facts.
A reporter spoke to supermarket chairman, all he said was there could probably be a DIFFERENCE in prices cross border in the event of independence. Switch him off, turn to camera and declare -PRICES WILL GO UP !!!!!!
Liying, cheating bunch of mother'scumbags (cleaned language up there)
Spank86
12-09-14, 07:18 PM
And what do you think prices will do if Scotland is a separate market? Do you think supermarkets will transfer transport costs to the rest of the UK's customer base?
And what do you think prices will do if Scotland is a separate market? Do you think supermarkets will transfer transport costs to the rest of the UK's customer base?
It's an interesting one that. If they transfer those costs now, what is it that obliges them to do that?
Spank86
12-09-14, 07:25 PM
It's an interesting one that. If they transfer those costs now, what is it that obliges them to do that?
Nothing obliges them, it's just most stores have a policy of one country one price.
It makes online shopping easier for one thing, and stops them having to pick individual prices for each store, they just average out costs.
However with Scotland being a separate market with its own regulations and rules they would have to change things up anyway which opens up the possibility that it would have its own prices which would reflect the average costs of getting goods to stores only in Scotland. I don't pretend to know if that's more expensive for definite but plenty of places are suggesting it is.
Of course there's a certain amount of competition in the marketplace that may prevent price rises at least in the short term.
no as most of the fresh produce sold in Scottish supermarkets is local. something a lot of people dont know is that a lot of the veg/fruit sorting is done in Scotland and its just up the road form me. ASDA, Sainsburys, Tesco and a lot of others get their packaged veg/fruit from Kettle Produce.
what might rise is dried/canned produce but this i very much doubt.
what if Scotland actually lowers company profit rates and tax... do you still think these big Supermarkets would keep their headquarters in England?
what if an independent Scotland brings out it's own type of rates away form VAT and Duty and decides to make it something else?
who knows what will happen but i personally would like to be a part of a change be it good or bad.
Yeah I reckoned it was probably just convenient for them.
I guess it depends on all the other stuff - currency and EU membership in particular.
Spank86
12-09-14, 07:30 PM
If that happens they'll have to have their own currency because they can't run a deficit otherwise and in that case we've got an entirely new ball game with regards to pricing and costs.
carelesschucca
12-09-14, 08:27 PM
what might.
what if Scotland.
what if an independent Scotland.
who knows what will happen
and there for me is the big problem. To many what ifs and who knows.
No one can predict the future, just a case of taking a leap of faith. Who's got Scotland's best interests at heart. Holyrood or Westminster? I know who I trust with my future more.
Spank86
12-09-14, 09:01 PM
No one can predict the future, just a case of taking a leap of faith. Who's got Scotland's best interests at heart. Holyrood or Westminster? I know who I trust with my future more.
This man?
http://maxcdn.politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/alex-salmond-train-lying-scotsman.jpg
Another issue that I haven't seen addressed is passports. If Scotland is a separate country from the rest of the UK, then surely all passports currently in issue to residents of Scotland should be invalid as they would be issued for a country that did not include Scotland. Scotland would then need to set up their own passport office, but more than that, Scotland would need to get the international community to accept the new passports and that is by no means guaranteed.
Of course Scotland as an independent country would not automatically remain in the EU and would need to apply for membership (oops there goes independence). Until Scotland became a member, all the EU import tariffs against non members would apply to Scotland, thus impacting on Scottish exports to the EU.
Another issue that I haven't seen addressed is passports. If Scotland is a separate country from the rest of the UK, then surely all passports currently in issue to residents of Scotland should be invalid as they would be issued for a country that did not include Scotland. Scotland would then need to set up their own passport office, but more than that, Scotland would need to get the international community to accept the new passports and that is by no means guaranteed.
That's one of the easy ones :) Scotland would need to issue its own passports. Are you seriously suggesting there is even the slightest chance that a democratically formed independent Scotland might not be recognised by the international community?
Of course Scotland as an independent country would not automatically remain in the EU and would need to apply for membership (oops there goes independence). Until Scotland became a member, all the EU import tariffs against non members would apply to Scotland, thus impacting on Scottish exports to the EU.
Any source for that statement? I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but, as far as I can work out, the position is far from certain.
Why must the English make this a personality issue?
NOT A VOTE FOR SALMOND. Please understand that.
Fed up telling you this.
These are just issues. These can be solved. We have clever people. Stop telling us we can't do stuff. We are not children.
Wideboy
12-09-14, 09:20 PM
and why must you be so anti-English? I thought this was all about Westminster?
The Basket
12-09-14, 10:01 PM
Not about Alex Salmond.
Not about SNP.
It is, however, about David Cameron.
It is about Tories. So it is personal
All the NO signs around me have been vandalised and spray painted or ripped or destroyed.
So...
Former SNP deputy leader and prominent Yes campaigner Jim Sillars has warned of a "day of reckoning" for businesses that criticise independence.
The veteran nationalist's comments come after a number of firms raised concerns about the consequences of a Yes vote in the referendum.
BP backed a No vote earlier this week, with chief executive Bob Dudley saying "the future prospects for the North Sea are best served by maintaining the existing capacity and integrity of the United Kingdom".
RBS, Lloyds, Standard Life and the Clydesdale Bank have all announced contingency plans to move their headquarters to London if Scotland leaves the UK.
John Lewis and Waitrose have told customers to expect price rises while supermarket giant Asda has also issued a prices warning.
Mr Sillars spoke out while campaigning for a Yes vote in Wester Hailes. He is currently touring Scotland on the "Margo Mobile", a campaign van named after his late wife and pro-independence politician Margo MacDonald.
Mr Sillars said: “The No camp fear-mongering has had an effect on me – instead of retiring on September 19, I am staying in. This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks.
"The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.
"BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be.
"If it wants into the ‘monster fields’ in the areas west of Shetland, it will have to learn to bend the knee to a greater power – us, the sovereign people of Scotland. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.
"If Bob Dudley thinks this is mere rhetoric, just let him wait. It is sovereign power that counts. We will have it, he will not."
Mr Sillars, who recently published In Place of Fear II: A Socialist Programme for an Independent Scotland, continued: "As for the bankers. Your casino days, rescued by socialisation of your liabilities while you waltz off with the profits, will be over. You will be split between retail and investment, and if your greed takes the latter down, there will be no rescue.
"You believe in the market, in future you will live with its discipline. Fail will mean failure.
"As for Standard Life, it will be required by new employment laws to give two years' warning of any redundancies, and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland, and the costs involved.
"It has never crossed the minds of our compliant Unionist media, especially the BBC, to ask the chief executive what his costings are on his proposed moves.
"As for John Lewis, the question is whether the senior management consulted the ‘partners’ or took instructions from Cameron? Another question our supine BBC did not ask. There is now talk of boycott, and if it happens it will be a management own-goal.
"What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out.”
Mr Sillars was MP for South Ayrshire from 1970 until 1979 and later for Glasgow Govan from 1988 until 1992, when he lost the seat to Scottish Labour's Ian Davidson.
He served as deputy leader of the SNP from 1991 until 1992 but broke with Alex Salmond after branding Scots "90-minute patriots" in the wake of the 1992 general election.
However, he and Mr Salmond reconciled on Tuesday to campaign for a Yes vote, with the First Minister saying: “Jim and I have known each other for many years, this is part of the campaign and Jim has done a fantastic job around Scotland with the Margo bus.”
Mr Davidson, who is now MP for Glasgow South West, used his rival's comments to argue that the Yes campaign's "mask" had slipped.
He said: "The Yes campaign’s mask slipped today as Jim Sillars revealed their message for the final week of this campaign – vote Yes or else.
“His words are a clear threat to anyone who points out the true costs of separation to the people of Scotland.
“The Yes campaign has been a campaign of fear and intimidation from the start. Many people have been silenced. Now those who put their head above the parapet get pot shots from desperate nationalists.
“Well I tell Jim Sillars - Scots are not the ’90 minute patriots’ he once accused us of being. Scots have backbone and we who are voting No with patriotism and pride for our country will not be intimidated by threats of vengeance.
“We have seen the Yes campaign’s thugs on the street – now we see their thugs with microphones and press releases.
“Sillars stood shoulder to shoulder with Alex Salmond this week claiming to be positive. Now we see the real face of nationalism in all its ugliness.
“Scotland must unite to gain the change we need for our country and reject the Yes campaign’s strategy of threats and intimidation.”
However, Yes Scotland said Mr Sillars was "passionate" about independence from the UK.
A spokesman said: "Jim is a passionate campaigner who is carrying on the work of his late wife Margo MacDonald, who dedicated her political life to achieving an independent Scotland and a fairer society.
"The current Scottish Government's proposals for an independent Scotland are set out in great detail in the White Paper - including the job-creating powers Scotland so badly needs - and that is what people are voting for.
"In each and every election to an independent parliament, parties and individuals can put forward a manifesto of their choosing and the people will decide.
"The role of Yes is to achieve a Yes vote, so that the people of Scotland will always get the governments we vote for - and never again Westminster-imposed Tory governments."
Spank86
12-09-14, 10:05 PM
And he doesn't think that standard life would be off the minute they started passing such a law?
It's not particularly light reading but, if anyone can be bothered, this e-book has some fairly unbiased analysis without any name-calling...
http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/papers/scotlands-decision-16-questions-think-about-referendum-18-september
It lacks the certainty that many on both sides seem to be so sure of, but reality is sometimes like that.
If you prefer moving pictures, this seemed to me to be a pretty well-balanced economic review, even if it has been produced by the evil meeja from the BBC.
For me, it's worth a watch anyway. Stephanie Flanders has got it ALL going on. :smt007
yqGGriEJac8
and there for me is the big problem. To many what ifs and who knows.
exactly as nobody knows what will happen but politics are politics and its fun watching the bitching.
i'm actually getting a bit sick of it all and cant wait till the votes are in. united or divided it makes no odds as the UK is down the swaneeeeeee.
scotty217
13-09-14, 12:10 AM
As a Scot living in England, I' been following all this with interest. This thread is great by the way!
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a chance that both sides could contest the fairness of the vote in the event of a loss?
If the result is no, couldn't Salmond contest after the massive U turn Cameron made earlier this week, saying a no vote would mean talks about further devolved powers (after categorically stating that its yes/no not yes/no/devo Max)? Especially as votes had been cast BEFORE the u turn?
And if its yes couldn't Westminster contest because of the unfairness of the residency question? How many service people won't be able to vote because of detachments overseas and yet are residing in Scotland, for example. Or extending the franchise to under 18s?
Just food for thought
They can contest it all they like but there is an agreement that the result would be accepted. Short of Mugabe style ballot rigging I can't see that changing.
The lies, exaggeration and jiggery pokery are all pretty standard within the rules of the game.
yes both sides could contest the vote.
yes i dont think its fair that servicemen who still have residency in Scotland dont get a vote, or do they?
the vote that took place in the 70's was in favour of independence by 1% but Scotland was told no. if the same happens this time then the coalition that is currently in power at Westminster had better remove themselves from office as the majority of the population never voted them in, they effectively stole office by combining two sets of votes so they are actually a minority government. and they call that fair... hmmm
anyway i'm off to go play with the buttons in my new car that the Government paid for before i get it taken off me when there is a yes vote for the independence of Scotland. lol
People in the forces normally resident in Scotland have a vote.
The Home Rule vote in the 70's had to get a majority and a minimum electorate. This vote will be decided on a simple majority.
scotty217
13-09-14, 12:39 AM
Ah right. Forgot about the result being accepted bit. I know that service people resident get a vote, regardless of nationality. But what if your detached to Afghanistan for 8 months, or onboard your destroyer in the Bahamas, or around the Falklands. Have they voted already or by post or something?
Sorry mate just reread your post, so if you can't or won't vote, its tough sh!t?
Yeah, if they're registered to vote in Scotland but deployed overseas they get their vote.
Sid Squid
13-09-14, 01:04 AM
I get fed up with answering this one - :(
Vote for SCOTLAND - this is not a vote for SNP, or Salmond or any on party or policy.
Stop listening to the media and make an informed opinion, not one force fed to you by the BBC and printed media.
Policy will be decided after the YES vote, after negotiaitons, after we have independence. [-o<
How very rude.
You have NOT answered 'this one', VERY VERY far from it in fact. But I expect you don't want to see that.
Your vile condescending attitude that viewpoints other than your own are the product of unthinking slavish following of media discounts any of your thoughts on the subject.
Think harder about this - rather than merely criticising others.
If you have ANY serious informed comment - now would be the time.
SvNewbie
13-09-14, 01:29 AM
It's not particularly light reading but, if anyone can be bothered, this e-book has some fairly unbiased analysis without any name-calling...
http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk/papers/scotlands-decision-16-questions-think-about-referendum-18-september
It lacks the certainty that many on both sides seem to be so sure of, but reality is sometimes like that.
Cheers for that reference Tam, seems like a very good attempt at an impartial summary of the issues involved from what I've read.
Anyone who makes an honest attempt to understand as much of that as they are able has my support whether they decide to vote yes or no.
Spank86
13-09-14, 07:48 AM
the vote that took place in the 70's was in favour of independence by 1% but Scotland was told no. if the same happens this time then the coalition that is currently in power at Westminster had better remove themselves from office as the majority of the population never voted them in, they effectively stole office by combining two sets of votes so they are actually a minority government. and they call that fair... hmmm
That's the rules. As I said earlier, we vote for MPs not governments. The queen then appoints the person who can command the confidence of the house.
In theory an independent MP could gather a majority of MPs from all different party's to form a government although it'll never happen.
Fordward
13-09-14, 03:38 PM
Scotland is a country. It is not part of England. It should not be governed by another country. Decisions should be made in that country for the best outcome for the people of that country by a government chosen by that country. The country should not be subsidising major building works in a neighbouring country. The taxes raised in that country should stay in that country and not pay for the the debts of their neighbours.
Scotland is a separate country and we have the right to decide our future and have decisions on our future made by Scottish politicians in Scotland
Correcting this for you...
England is a country. It is not part of Scotland. It should not be governed by another country (ie: MSP's voting in Westminster). Decisions should be made in that country for the best outcome for the people of that country by a government chosen by that country. The country should not be subsidising major building works in a neighbouring country (such as two new bridges over the Forth, Trams in Edinburgh, a new M80, reconnecting Bathgate to Airdrie railway line and upgrading the entire length, planned upgrades for Edinburgh/Glasgow main line, planned new railway from borders to Edinburgh, planned upgrades for the M8/M74/M73 interchanges, and a planned new bypass for Aberdeen). The taxes raised in that country should stay in that country and not pay for the the debts of their neighbours (since public spending per head in Scotland is higher than that of England).
England is a separate country and we have the right to decide our future and have decisions on our future made by English politicians in England
You see you could write all the same arguments in reverse.
Either way you write it, it's all nonsense, because we don't have a situation today where Scotland is being governed by England.
We have a situation where 4 countries make up part of a Union, with pro's and con's on all sides, though some of the cons Scotland doesn't have to suffer because it's been devolved.
I hate the rhetoric that results when Scots start playing hard done by, and complaining that they are governed by "England". It makes them sound like a spoilt child that wants it all their own way, anti-English, narrow minded and bitter.
Well Fordward, if Scotland votes yes, then all those projects you mentioned should be cancelled, or at least put on hold until the Scottish Parliament has the money to pay for them themselves from purely Scottish taxes or, more likely, borrowings.
Fordward
13-09-14, 03:52 PM
How can we have a deficit when we can only spend the pocket money given us by Westminster ???
Because it's a Union and the pocket money given you by Westminster contributes to the UK's deficit. Then as Spank points out there are other monies spent on behalf of Scotland which also adds to the UK deficit. It's also all borrowed money which means Scotland has to share debt as well.
That's like a woman getting divorced, but claiming she's not responsible for her half of the mortgage, because she wasn't the one who paid the bills for the house she lived in, so couldn't control any deficit, and she only spend the housekeeping money her husband gave her so it's not her debt.
Fordward
13-09-14, 03:59 PM
Well Fordward, if Scotland votes yes, then all those projects you mentioned should be cancelled, or at least put on hold until the Scottish Parliament has the money to pay for them themselves from purely Scottish taxes or, more likely, borrowings.
Many English taxpayers may feel that way after a Yes vote, but Scots are already paying for it from their taxes, as UK taxpayers.
The point in raising them is to show that Scotland is not the deprived child of England, they are a part of the UK and benefit greatly from being part of that Union. Certain Scots need to stop crying like the deprived child.
Many English taxpayers may feel that way after a Yes vote, but Scots are already paying for it from their taxes, as UK taxpayers.
The point in raising them is to show that Scotland is not the deprived child of England, they are a part of the UK and benefit greatly from being part of that Union. Certain Scots need to stop crying like the deprived child.
or you could say that because we get pocket money then we are being treated like children, children grow up then get a job and contribute to the household income, then they decide they have had enough of this and go it alone for better or worse.
all of the UK gain from being part of the UK it's true we are more than likely 'better together' but the point is the governing power in Scotland dont want to be together and want to go it alone like a grown up teenager seeking its independence and future be it good or bad.
tell me why that local elections are mostly Labour votes while the regional elections (or what ever they are called) vote for SNP and this is why we have SNP in power in Holyrood and not Labour.
Fordward
13-09-14, 05:13 PM
Bib, Scottish people wanted devolution and to have control over their own spending, so it was negotiated, agreed, and Westminster provide the pot of money every year that the Scottish people wanted, and the Scottish people can now spend it how they want.
Now there's a referendum coming up, the English are treating the Scots like children by giving them pocket money?
Get what you want, then bitch about it once you've got it, and blame England for putting such an unfair system in place. ](*,)
There is a proportion of Scots (the vast majority of whom will be voting yes), who want to blame the English for anything and everything they suddenly don't like. I wonder if it would carry on into a poorer Independent Scotland. I can just hear the moans, "Scotland is poorer because England wouldn't agree to a currency Union", etc, etc
When it comes to anti-English moaning, I'd like to one of two results out of this....
If NO - You had the choice and you chose to stay, so it can't be that bad, now shut up.
If YES - You've gone on your own now you have nobody to blame but yourselves, now shut up.
Fordward, you spent a large majority of your life in Scotland you know what the Scots are like, a bunch of moaning burgers and just like the large population of the UK feel very very strongly about their nationality. the Scots are not the only ones moaning about how money is spent in Scotland and you will find that a large population of the English think that the Scots are a bunch of 'scrounging Jocks' and that our money is worthless due to in not having the word England printed on it.
there is just as much hate, name calling and blame pointing on both sides of the border. you will never eradicate this as there IS a deep inset hatred there on both sides. hopefully one day everyone can put their differences aside and actually act like fellow civilised human beings but dont hold your breath.
being in the UK is not the be all and end all for any member of the UK and dont you think it would be better to have a nation that wants to go it alone have as much help from its friends as possible for the good of us all. or is the rest of the UK not friends with Scotland and want to see them fail. whats so wrong with Scotland wanting to be it's own nation, we can still work together but will just be separate country's just like members of Europe.
i'm sick and shocked at the whole thing TBH but most of all disgusted at the reaction and threats Westminster and Holyrood has to the separation of Scotland when in fact they should be helping us as much as possible and still stay friends but it's looking like a typical divorce where the two sides will always have a hatred which goes to show just how grown up our politicians really are.
MisterTommyH
13-09-14, 05:43 PM
There is a proportion of Scots (the vast majority of whom will be voting yes), who want to blame the English for anything and everything they suddenly don't like. I wonder if it would carry on into a poorer Independent Scotland. I can just hear the moans, "Scotland is poorer because England wouldn't agree to a currency Union", etc, etc
It won't just be currency union. It will be due to makeing Scotland a proportion of the national debt (but not acknowledging any benefit of the initial loan), together of any number of other things which will not acknowledge that a separate country also has it's free choice as Scotland has just exercised.
It can already be seen in some of the arguments about big bad Westminster trying to con them into voting No.... FFS - they want you to stay.... That should be flattering, but you still have the right to Vote YES. No one is holding a gun to your head. Are they expecting NO to make YESs argument for them..... Do Labour make the Torys argument for them in a general?
Fordward
13-09-14, 09:01 PM
Yeah Bibs, as you know it's a sore point for me. I still clearly remember being punched in the face at 10 yrs old outside Pathhead Primary School, a knife to my throat at 12 years old in the park at Winifred St, and countless fights as a teenager (none of them started by me) all because somebody thought my accent was too English. I understand there's bigotry on both sides, but having the mixed accent that I have, I've never been physically threatened in England because I sounded too Scottish. Maybe the feeling is stronger because the perception is one of having been trodden on by the English. My experience is the hatred flows South, and some disdain, but mostly **** taking flows North. Most of the Jock jokes I've taken (and still take) in England, are exactly that, jokes, usually something to do with being tight with money, just like the Irish being stupid, or the French surrendering to the Germans.
TBH with all the debate I'm loosing the will to debate it any further. I don't get a vote, in terms of trying to influence others it's all been said, and if Scots don't realise by now that Salmond and Sturgeon are playing them for fools, then there's nothing I'm going to say that will change that. So...
No - well done, you've got Devo Max
Yes - well done, you've got your independence, now good luck making work
I'll get Dual nationality anyway, but I never have to come back if I don't want to. As much as I would like to see Scotland independent, but equally really don't want to see Scotland get screwed up, I guess it's win win for me living in England.
Let's see what the result of the vote us, then go from there.
carelesschucca
13-09-14, 09:05 PM
gotta say I was saddened by things I saw today coming back from Knockhill and Perth. Every single NO THANKS sign had been vandalised. I can imagine the outrage there would have been if it was the other way round.
The Basket
13-09-14, 09:06 PM
I am fed up of it. Totally.
Anything which goes against Alex Salmond is lies and scaremongering.
No debate. Because the economic debate is very wafer thin, the next step is pure nationalism which is basically anti English. You are with us or against us.
Soooo....
Scotland wins independence. Goes to London to make demands. To the same Eton Tory liars cheats and scum and you know what...they may not like been called lying scum and may not be very comfortable with giving Salmond what he wants.
And then Salmond goes to EU.
Do you have a stable currency?
Do you have a central bank?
Have you just reneged on UK debt?
Why should Scotland get in when Serbia and Turkey and Moldova and....god forbid....Ukraine have been waiting years. I don't know either.
The Basket
13-09-14, 09:08 PM
gotta say I was saddened by things I saw today coming back from Knockhill and Perth. Every single NO THANKS sign had been vandalised. I can imagine the outrage there would have been if it was the other way round.
Its called democracy. SNP democracy. I have seen that too.
Its an advertisement for the Scotland they want.
kids will be kids just because you had a bad experience as a child, has it made you bitter to the Scottish population?
your not the only one m8 i spent 4 years in Rhodesia and South Africa before moving back to Scotland when i was 6 so can you imagine what it was like for me living in the centre of Edinburgh with a very very good tan, talking and looking like a 'nigger' but with blond hair, lets just say i learnt to fight very very quickly. am i bitter about it? no.
as i said, better together yes probably but the people in charge who the public elected in Scotland want independence, its political and as we all know we have to trust out politicians to make the right choice for us be it good or bad, this is why we elect them in the hope that they can do a good job.
Spank86
13-09-14, 09:29 PM
Well Fordward, if Scotland votes yes, then all those projects you mentioned should be cancelled, or at least put on hold until the Scottish Parliament has the money to pay for them themselves from purely Scottish taxes or, more likely, borrowings.
If I believed that I'd be pushing. For Scottish independence.
The uk government has agreed to binding contracts with independent companies. We're on the hook for this either way.
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