View Full Version : The Org Scottish Referendum
carelesschucca
15-09-14, 07:13 PM
Can any of them be trusted?
Fordward
15-09-14, 07:14 PM
Worth a read. An independent report commissioned by a Scottish corporate (and one of my customers), carried out by the Oxford Institute.
Makes some scary reading, if your prepared to take it in and not just choose to ignore it that is....
http://www.weir.co.uk/media/85604/INDEPENDENCE-REPORT.pdf
Matt-EUC
15-09-14, 07:18 PM
Tl;dr?
Fordward
15-09-14, 07:19 PM
Bibio, if you'd like an email from David.cameron@number10.gov.uk, send me your email address. Or I could do Barak.Obama@thewhitehouse.com if you prefer. Saddam.hussein.resurrected@isis.com might draw some unwanted attention from GHCQ to my broadband connection! :-)
Alternatively these emails could be genuine, but sent only to people who subscribed to a Conservative party mailing list.
yes but they are public servants and i would not have the right to use their data for propaganda purposes and doing so would see me in jail. i am genuinely shocked and concerned about it.
I's not from govt. It seems to be an email from the Conservative party, presumably to their subscribers list. Nothing to worry about.
carelesschucca
15-09-14, 07:36 PM
yes but they are public servants and i would not have the right to use their data for propaganda purposes and doing so would see me in jail. i am genuinely shocked and concerned about it.
with Tam on this its the Conservative Party not the government. c'mon lance down from the high horse before you really fall and break something.
'sign up to make calls' calls to Scottish voters, how do the conservative party know these phone numbers and even if they do have the permission to use this data by the individuals who signed up makes them nothing more than cold callers.
''hello this is another conservative voter, you dont know me but you better vote NO on thursday or else''. the misuse and abuse that this could cause is catastrophic and could lead to abusive behaviour.
It's all standard stuff to get your vote out. Every party will be doing the same, including knocking on people's doors to check they've voted. I've done it. There's nothing sinister going on.
knock my door all you want as if you say something i dont like i can punch you in the face. abusive behaviour down a phone line is another thing.
i ****ed off with this whole fukin thing and the dirty underhandedness of it all so everyone can go ant take a fukin run and jump to themselves.
"In this world, one thing counts, in the bank large amounts".
I was always under the impression that life was about so much more than an economic system. However, reading this thread, and particularly the No supporter posts I feel I may be one of the only people here who feels that way.
It's a sad world in which we live....
On your marks, set.....
I've been poor and I've been rich. Rich is better!
Dave-the-rave
15-09-14, 08:45 PM
"In this world, one thing counts, in the bank large amounts".
I was always under the impression that life was about so much more than an economic system. However, reading this thread, and particularly the No supporter posts I feel I may be one of the only people here who feels that way.
It's a sad world in which we live....
On your marks, set.....
You're not the only one who feels that way.
Spank86
15-09-14, 08:47 PM
knock my door all you want as if you say something i dont like i can punch you in the face. abusive behaviour down a phone line is another thing.
i ****ed off with this whole fukin thing and the dirty underhandedness of it all so everyone can go ant take a fukin run and jump to themselves.
What part of this do you think would be abusive behaviour?
apart from the fact that they'd be committing a criminal offence if they did it down a telephone line don't you think that would be an own goal, ringing up scots to give them ****?
It'll be a list of conservative voters who have signed up to the Tory party register and they'll be issuing a script for people to ring round and encourage them to vote and give them reasons why they think the uk is better together.
As tam said, all the parties do this at general elections but they only do it to people who've given their numbers out,
MisterTommyH
15-09-14, 08:52 PM
how do the conservative party know these phone numbers
Phonebook?
The Basket
15-09-14, 08:53 PM
Saw a poster. Yes poster. Saying no more Tory governments in Scotland ever. But the conservative party is functional in Scotland so could win in an independent Scotland. So why the poster?
To me there are two no votes.
Vote no to democracy.
Or vote no to independence.
BanannaMan
16-09-14, 04:26 AM
Too big to keep down, the Scottish referendum is back in the news in the US more than ever.
Move over Russia, China,the US, Canada and England, Scotland and it's referendum are about to rock the entire world.
Of course the bad thing with such a close vote is that yeh or nay there are going to be a lot of unhappy people Friday morning and lots with mixed emotions as I'm sure there are already.
Too bad Wesminister didn't take this seriously sooner and made some real concessions to keep Scotland in the UK months ago.
Fordward
16-09-14, 07:10 AM
Too bad Wesminister didn't take this seriously sooner and made some real concessions to keep Scotland in the UK months ago.
Alex Salmonds plan for an independent Scotland is and always has been lunacy. Westminster didn't take it seriously because they never thought anyone would actually vote for it.
They are used to elections with a conservative hardcore, a labour hardcore, who's vote never changes whatever happens or whatever the manifesto says, so it's pretty much a static. Then they have a chunk of apathetic voters that can't be arsed to read a manifesto, wouldn't understand it if they did, and don't trust any party, so they don't vote. Then you have a chunk of interested and educated people who will vote, will have made their own good reasons for voting, and these are the people who they need to campaign and convince to win their votes.
They don't have a hardcore either way this us a unique vote, Scotland is very patriotic so there's less apathy (97% turnout expected), and the chunk of voters who are interested and educated have already looked at Salmonds plan and decided it's lunacy for themselves so they don't need campaigning and convincing. If there's one thing the Scots have by the bucketload over and above bravery, it's pride.
Westminster have said "ha, ha, ha, they'll never be a majority vote for Salmonds crazy plan, some stupid people will do it because they've watched Braveheart too many times, some will do it because they hated Maggie Thatcher, but common sense will preval".
What I think Westminster have missed, is the number of people who aren't voting for Salmonds plan, they are taking the only chance they'll ever have, to vote for the Independant country they've always wanted, then they'll get rid of Salmond and worry about how they actually achieve it afterwards. It's a brave move, but they don't call it Scotland the Brave for nothing.
They won't want to be seen as the country that always wanted Independance, voted in a party with that agenda, but when it came to the crunch they s#!t themselves and decided they didn't think they could make it on their own. If there's one thing the Scots have by the bucketload, over and above bravery, it's pride.
Fordward
16-09-14, 07:14 AM
Either way, very brave or very stupid, I never need to go back and live there if I don't want to, so I wish them good luck!
Saw a poster. Yes poster. Saying no more Tory governments in Scotland ever. But the conservative party is functional in Scotland so could win in an independent Scotland. So why the poster?
To me there are two no votes.
Vote no to democracy.
Or vote no to independence.
The Tory's are finished in Scotland, have been for years. Their might be a Tory local HQ in Glasgow, but it's held in a phone box.
I say if the people want independence then they should go for it. I would love Scotland to vote yes. In fact I am thinking of selling my house and moving to Scotland. Why, because what has England got going for it? More imigrants, more pikeys, more chavs, more crime, more Tory's and more dole spongers.
Give me Scotland any day.
;):twisted:
The Basket
16-09-14, 07:55 AM
The conservative party got about 13% of the vote in last Scottish parliament and Ruth Davidson has proven to be effective.
That's a big phone box. The only way the Yes campaign can stop any possibility is banning the conservative party.
Perhaps they too will be included in 'the day of reckoning'
Independence at any price?
That's a very silly game to play.
Its called losing.
Spank86
16-09-14, 08:47 AM
The conservative party got about 13% of the vote in last Scottish parliament and Ruth Davidson has proven to be effective.
That's a big phone box. The only way the Yes campaign can stop any possibility is banning the conservative party.
Perhaps they too will be included in 'the day of reckoning'
What they're failing to consider is that by going independent they will actually be adjusting the class system in Scotland, This is likely to push people into the bracket that would traditionally be considered Conservative supporters and actually gain them votes.
Additionally, over time, they will lose the stigma of being associated with the UK Tories and become a much more viable option.
The Basket
16-09-14, 08:59 AM
If the economic disaster befalls Scotland that is going to happen.
How ironic that it will be the Tory party that saves the day.
Fordward
16-09-14, 05:13 PM
Has this thread swayed a single person to change their vote? If so please post and tell us.
SvNewbie
16-09-14, 06:12 PM
Betfair are paying out on it being a No vote 3 days early, which means either they have better info than the pollsters or they are bluffing.
Don't rule out the first one completely, it's their job to know the likelihood of the outcomes of these things and for things like this they are rarely wrong.
However, in this case I suspect they are chancing their arm. They have a fledgling sportsbook which they are trying to promote and the amount of money involved is probably small enough for them that they can get away with it.
https://betting.betfair.com/politics/scottish-independence-referendum-betting/scottish-independence-betting-betfair-sportsbook-pays-out-early-on-no-160914-51.html
carelesschucca
16-09-14, 07:26 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098624/SNP-Government-planning-half-a-billion-pounds-of-NHS-cutbacks-leaked-dossier-reveals.html
So who's lying this time? Papers or the SNP?
Spank86
16-09-14, 07:31 PM
neither?
You can make cuts to current services either to save money or to supply new ones. If it's the latter they can claim not to be "making cuts" whilst making them as they shuffle money to be spent on more procedures and drugs.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098624/SNP-Government-planning-half-a-billion-pounds-of-NHS-cutbacks-leaked-dossier-reveals.html
So who's lying this time? Papers or the SNP?
The SNP of course. I'll bet there are a lot of these cuts in preparation for a Yes vote because I can't see the SNP's sums adding up. There are a lot of cost that Scotland would have to bear that have not been widely circulating. Scotlands share of the National Debt for one. Salmond seems to think he can avoid this but I don't think so.
Don't forget, Scottish governments for the forseeable future will be socialist. We know that Socialist governments on this Island have ALWAYS screwed the economy by excessive borrowing.
neither?
You can make cuts to current services either to save money or to supply new ones. If it's the latter they can claim not to be "making cuts" whilst making them as they shuffle money to be spent on more procedures and drugs.
Yep. They are increasing the budget while also looking for efficiency savings in existing services. Same as always.
Spank86
16-09-14, 09:53 PM
Yep. They are increasing the budget while also looking for efficiency savings in existing services. Same as always.
Really?
I was just conjecturing. Cool.
BanannaMan
17-09-14, 03:49 AM
What I think Westminster have missed, is the number of people who aren't voting for Salmonds plan, they are taking the only chance they'll ever have, to vote for the Independant country they've always wanted, then they'll get rid of Salmond and worry about how they actually achieve it afterwards. It's a brave move, but they don't call it Scotland the Brave for nothing.
Agreed.
If Scotland does vote in favor of independence these will be the votes that decide it.
It's more than just politics and economics to some.
Excellent "Yes" advert here playing heavy on that theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6w_-QMH3E
Propaganda?
Not to those who feel that way.
Interesting on that side of the pond all the talk of economic doom to Scotland.
On this side of the pond there is more worry about the blow to the UK's economy especially in the North.
The Basket
17-09-14, 06:51 AM
Scotland will struggle to join EU.
Spain will see to that.
And still you have no currency plan.
Oh dear. If only wish dreams were moonbeams.
timwilky
17-09-14, 06:56 AM
We have already instructed all Scots to bring in documentary evidence they are entitled to live and work in England. If they fail to comply and the vote is yes, their contracts are to be terminated Friday morning.;)
So far the only one failing to comply is the production manager and there are apparently 150 shop floor staff looking forward to him emptying his desk.
He failed to understand a note from his dad saying you can work in England would suffice. We therefore question his parentage. He may be a Scot, but he is obviously also a b'stard.
daveyrach
17-09-14, 07:40 AM
Interesting how the poll here almost exactl matches the national polls.
Fordward
17-09-14, 07:45 AM
Has this thread swayed a single person to change their vote? If so please post and tell us.
Agreed.
If Scotland does vote in favor of independence these will be the votes that decide it.
It's more than just politics and economics to some.
Excellent "Yes" advert here playing heavy on that theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX6w_-QMH3E
Propaganda?
Not to those who feel that way.
Interesting on that side of the pond all the talk of economic doom to Scotland.
On this side of the pond there is more worry about the blow to the UK's economy especially in the North.
That was my reasoning for the question above, has the thread and all the reports, materials, news articles that it has been linked to, swayed anybody?
We are worried about the economic blow as well, but the Yes voters simply aren't interested. They've got the whole world telling them that is what is going to happen, and they are putting their fingers in their ears, and turning a blind eye. They want independence so badly, they are prepared to go for it regardless of the economic cost.
At this point there's no point in trying to convince a Yes voter, none of them are listening.
We just have to wait until Friday morning to see how many of them there are.
Fordward
17-09-14, 07:49 AM
Even the question on the ballot paper is worded they way the SNP want it worded.
"Should Scotland be an independent country?"
Looking at it in a completely black and white way, my answer to this would be 'Yes', it SHOULD!
Change the question to
"Would the Scottish people be better off living in an Independent Scotland", then I'd answer 'No', they wouldn't.
ClunkintheUK
17-09-14, 08:01 AM
Not sure if it has swung my vote (opinion), as I was largely indifferent. I think a no vote would be better for all concerned financially in the short term, but devolving more powers to Scotland will only prolong the debate, and mean that there'll be another referendum until the SNP gets what it wants.
I sort of want a yes vote, just to see what happens in a "some men just want to watch the world burn" sort of way. It will have an interesting effect on rUK politics, as the strong Labour vote from Scotland leaving will weaken an already weak Labour (poor leadership), I'm not a labour supporter, but a weak opposition is very bad news. Perhaps we'll see the rise of a new party/political movement.
SvNewbie
17-09-14, 10:09 AM
Not sure if it has swung my vote (opinion), as I was largely indifferent. I think a no vote would be better for all concerned financially in the short term, but devolving more powers to Scotland will only prolong the debate, and mean that there'll be another referendum until the SNP gets what it wants.
I sort of want a yes vote, just to see what happens in a "some men just want to watch the world burn" sort of way. It will have an interesting effect on rUK politics, as the strong Labour vote from Scotland leaving will weaken an already weak Labour (poor leadership), I'm not a labour supporter, but a weak opposition is very bad news. Perhaps we'll see the rise of a new party/political movement.
Think Spank mentioned earlier, but the result will be Labour being dragged slightly further right until they can appeal to some of the UKIP / Conservative voters.
Not a situation I'm entirely comfortable with but in my current life situation I think conservative policies are better for me personally so I guess I can't complain too much.
BanannaMan
17-09-14, 11:56 AM
Scotland will struggle to join EU.
Spain will see to that.
And still you have no currency plan.
Oh dear. If only wish dreams were moonbeams.
Both of these points are are the source of jokes about the NO camp on this side of the pond. LOL
We are worried about the economic blow as well, but the Yes voters simply aren't interested. They've got the whole world telling them that is what is going to happen, and they are putting their fingers in their ears, and turning a blind eye. They want independence so badly, they are prepared to go for it regardless of the economic cost.
.
Elsewhere in the world Scotland is predicted to prosper.
Do you believe everything the no side says is fact?
Obviously there will be some no voters voting with their hearts as well, eh?
Spank86
17-09-14, 12:09 PM
Elsewhere in the world Scotland is predicted to prosper.
Based on which of the different "yes" factions mutually exclusive economic plans?
Prices will certainly rise in almost all areas except POSSIBLY the energy market and I wouldn't even bet on that. Unless of course there are tax breaks which Scotland can't possibly afford given their other plans.
The current suggestion that I'm finding fairly hilarious is the suggestion that Scotland will set up an "oil fund", what, whilst running a deficit? Good luck with that. I invite anyone who thinks that's a good idea to take a £10 loan from one bank and "invest it" in another and see if it makes them their fortune.
The Basket
17-09-14, 12:29 PM
Both of these points are are the source of jokes about the NO camp on this side of the pond.
You must be joking. You are joking? Aren't you?
I can destroy both SNP arguments for currency and EU membership in milliseconds.
Oh wait...I don't have too. The Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has just saved me the bother.
And the Spanish pride is not weak sauce.
Spank86
17-09-14, 12:30 PM
The Belgians wouldn't be too happy either, they have an independence movement in the very rich Flemish part.
Then there's Italy with it's secession movements in sicily and Sardinia as well as the mainland and France with Corsica and probably several others..
The Basket
17-09-14, 12:46 PM
I have spoken to the representatives of the 28 states and enthusiasm for processes of this type is nil, because I understand they are bad for the region in question, for the state and the EU as a whole. They harm the wealth, employment and welfare of all EU citizens," Rajoy said. "I fear there will be very few facilities for whoever joins in such processes."
"A region may indeed apply for EU membership if it acts legally. It's a process which takes years; it took Spain eight years, and many more for Croatia, the last to join," he added.
Rajoy also noted that any region to break away would be automatically deprived of EU benefits as well as membership.
"The community chest would not apply to them; no freedom of movement for people, capital, goods, services, the currency, the European Central Bank or agricultural aid," he said.
This what Rajoy said...now....Mr Yes voter...what part of this do you not understand?
Fordward
17-09-14, 01:48 PM
Do you believe everything the no side says is fact?
Obviously there will be some no voters voting with their hearts as well, eh?
I don't believe anything either side says is fact, especially not the politicians. I read a report, look who wrote it and whether they are an expert in that field, try to figure out whether the are likely have any political motivations in reaching the conclusions they have, then make up my own mind.
There will be no voters voting with their hearts, these guys for a start
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-edinburgh-orange-order-members-march-support-union-1465684
But not many I don't think. Generally speaking it's a division between the head and the heart. My heart would say Yes, but I'm with my head.
Fordward
17-09-14, 01:54 PM
now....Mr Yes voter...what part of this do you not understand?
They don't understand any of it mate, not because they are thick (well some clearly are), but because they didn't read it! They got two sentences in, realised you were in the No camp, and stopped reading.
28 states saying it's a bad idea. Every bank in Europe saying its a bad idea. Every significant business that exports from Scotland saying it's a bad idea. Independant economic think tanks saying it's a bad idea. If they won't listen to that they won't listen to anything. They don't want to hear it, they only want independence.
I think you need to consider which audience Rajoy is talking to and also look a bit more carefully at what he actually said.
EDIT: Bear in mind there is also a reasonable contingent in all parts of the UK that would welcome an EU exit. Probably best not to start on that one - we'll possibly be reconvening for a bad tempered debate on that one in a couple of years :)
The Basket
17-09-14, 03:03 PM
Tam...
I have too much time on my hands.
Spank86
17-09-14, 03:11 PM
I think you need to consider which audience Rajoy is talking to and also look a bit more carefully at what he actually said.
EDIT: Bear in mind there is also a reasonable contingent in all parts of the UK that would welcome an EU exit. Probably best not to start on that one - we'll possibly be reconvening for a bad tempered debate on that one in a couple of years :)
What he actually said was carefully worded because he, like all other countries politicians, was trying not to seem to be applying foreign pressure on what Scots consider a purely National issue.
If anything, based on the scots I know, It would push people towards a yes vote if they perceived a threat in his words.
to the no camp. if as you rightly say the yes voters will not be swayed then its going to be a landslide vote for independence of Scotland. who do you think put SNP in power in Scotland? well these very same cant be swayed yes voters. but surprise surprise it looks like some of these yes voters are actually having second thoughts and might just vote no.
saying that Scotland cant look after its own affairs it just telling me that the no voters think we are all thick and dont have the intelligent individuals to make independence work. talk about being rasist and derogatory.... ooohhh if Scotland do get independence we might just appoint some Englishmen to work for the good of Scotland, along with the Englishmen we also might appoint some other people form different nationality's to come together and make it work.
and ooohhh look a person who i actually classify as an inelegant individual resorting to threats just because someone who works in England is a Scotsman and Scotland might get independence, yes Tim i'm on about you. please stop making threats Tim, it's not big and it's not clever even if you are joking as it could be taken the wrong way.
Spank86
17-09-14, 03:29 PM
to the no camp. if as you rightly say the yes voters will not be swayed then its going to be a landslide vote for independence of Scotland. who do you think put SNP in power in Scotland? well these very same cant be swayed yes voters. but surprise surprise it looks like some of these yes voters are actually having second thoughts and might just vote no.
not every SNP voter wanted independence. there are a host of reasons other than wanting independence to vote SNP ranging from wanting to stick it to the major parties to wanting increased devolution short of independence or even thinking they'd be a good bunch to run the Scottish parliament.
saying that Scotland cant look after its own affairs it just telling me that the no voters think we are all thick and dont have the intelligent individuals to make independence work. talk about being rasist and derogatory.... ooohhh if Scotland do get independence we might just appoint some Englishmen to work for the good of Scotland, along with the Englishmen we also might appoint some other people form different nationality's to come together and make it work.
nobody (I hope) is saying the scots couldn't run a country.
On the contrary, with the exception of two scots I'm sure most of you could run one just as well as any other nations people. Most people are simply saying Scotland cannot be as successful independent as it can be in the union, no matter who's running he show.
dizzyblonde
17-09-14, 03:49 PM
I think you need to consider which audience Rajoy is talking to and also look a bit more carefully at what he actually said.
Possibly something to do with the fact that Catalonia is attempting independence from Spain. :rolleyes:
successful as a union for how long is the question. lets face it the UK is nearing its end as it cant sustain the economic growth rate needed due to the cost of living and unless something drastic is done in the near future then it's not looking pretty.
the UK as a whole has had its good and bad times and we have all worked threw it for the good of us all but like friends one of them is deciding that the grass looks greener on the other side and want to make a go of it while they still can. just like other newly formed country's of late. i would hope as being grown up induviduals the UK and Scotland can work things out that are going to benefit both of us, just because Scotland become an independent nation are our friends going to close the door in Scotland's face... i think not, remember as a new country we will need to buy a lot of things and one of these things are weapons, planes and ships to arm our forces, where do you think these weapons etc.etc are going to come from, yes we could build them ourselves but it's a lot quicker and easier to buy from people who are already equipped to do so. now if its a sore bitter parting of friends Scotland might just look at other country's to supply our forces.
this is all speculation of course as we wont know what happens till years to come and it's all resting on what happens tomorrow.
good luck to the no voters for tomorrow and if you win i wish you all of the financial security that comes with being in the union.
good luck to the no voters for tomorrow and if you win i wish you all of the financial security that comes with being in the union.
With financial security like that, who needs enemies? :-) The Euro is dying (in fact it's already dead, they just haven't closed the coffin) france is on its knees, German municipalities are all bordering on bankruptcy, The head of the IMF is going to strip you of 10% of whatever is in your accounts, and they are going Gung Ho to federalise Europe.. despite the entire population of the Eu wanting the exact opposite.
Good Luck Scotland. With the right management (not likely) they could be the new Switzerland. It's all about power. If they break away, all of those listed above will lose it. No one can push Scotland around. Norway isn't in the EU and they're still alive and well.
C
Spank86
17-09-14, 04:26 PM
successful as a union for how long is the question. lets face it the UK is nearing its end as it cant sustain the economic growth rate needed due to the cost of living and unless something drastic is done in the near future then it's not looking pretty.
I would look at the number if I were you, the UK's going to be fine and the cost of living is not such a problem. Yes the theoretical cost of living is high but that's driven up by things like house and fuel prices. Most other things are toddling alone just fine.
I would ask, economic growth rate needed for what?
We're coming out of a recession, not fast, but then neither is the rest of the world and that hurts us, but we're coming out of it and that's a normal economic cycle, This is nothing new, it's a bit worse than previous ones because it was a meltdown that was artificially held off for longer, the bigger the boom the bigger the bust, but we're more or less through it now and things will pick up.
If you're voting Scotland because you think the UK can't survive then you'd better pray you're wrong because the cost of living will not be lower in an independent Scotland, as you said your government will need to buy a lot of stuff and it'll need money to do that.
Fordward
17-09-14, 04:29 PM
to the no camp. if as you rightly say the yes voters will not be swayed then its going to be a landslide vote for independence of Scotland. who do you think put SNP in power in Scotland? well these very same cant be swayed yes voters. but surprise surprise it looks like some of these yes voters are actually having second thoughts and might just vote no.
SNP got into power in 2007. There are of course previous SNP supporters voting No, but they've probably been a No ever since Salmond released 'Scotlands Future'. What I'm questioning is how many voters in THIS referendum intended to vote Yes, but swayed to No as a result of all the warnings coming from around the world.
I guess there will be a number of voters who won't decide until they have the pen in their hands.
precisely spank and as a yes voter i'm prepared for the hard times that may be ahead in the hope that in the future Scotland will stand on it's own two feet. nobody said it will be easy, nothing ever is when it comes to politics and economics.
oohh one more thing about those two individuals you refer to, it was not Browns fault that Blair spent, spent, spent. Brown told Blair that if we went invading other country's for the cause against terrorism that we could not afford to do so, Blair ignored this advice and the money had to come from somewhere so Brown HAD to borrow to keep us in the black. if it had been up to Brown we would never have invaded Iraq. yes Brown is a complete knobend but i do believe he had and still has the best interest of the public at heart, Blair on the other hand had only one agenda and that was to look as good as he could on the world podium and grab as much cash for himself as possible. you might find this a bit hard to swallow but Brown gives all the money he makes by doing public speeches and so fourth to charity. i personally dont like the man but he is a very clever person that i do believe has the welfare of public at heart.
Spank86
17-09-14, 04:46 PM
I agree brown did his best, I just think he got everything wrong except for the things he got from the Tories (which could be One of the most ironic things ever)
nobody is perfect but in the face of things i think he actually done a good job balancing the books so to speak. he couldn't help having a partner that liked to spend to keep himself looking good by creating jobs so he would get the votes add to this Blair and his bum buddy liked to play with guns in other peoples back yards. while Blair spent Brown was forced to balance the books but was told you cant cut public spending and still have to create a growth in jobs. thats a bit like having a partner who likes flash cars or dresses and spends all the house keeping money on them. you have to borrow to keep the roof over your head.
Spank86
17-09-14, 04:58 PM
The thing is it was the Tories that balanced the books. Brown inherited that and continued their policies and then whilst Britain was still booming he started expanding the public sector and running up debt.
That was the point which lead to our current issues (not the world crunch, the way we've had to deal with it).
They borrowed and borrowed and now when we should be borrowing it's already been done, it made the boom bigger and the bust worse.
Fordward
17-09-14, 04:58 PM
My old man went to school with Gordon Brown, though he was a few years above him. There's 5 years between them, but Gordon Brown was clever so he got fast tracked into Kirkcaldy High 2 years early. As you can imagine this didn't make him very popular and it made him the smallest by a significant margin, so he had a pretty hard time of it.
You know what Bill Gates says, "Be nice to the geek at school, you're going to end up working for him".
I was intrigued by Bibio's comment on buying weapons. I can't imagine what they would need apart from aircraft and perhaps some infantry weapons.
The US is the biggest arms seller in the world, but I can't see them selling to an independent Scotland and ****ing off the UK. The current UK is the second biggest so you can forget that. So who do you buy from? Russia, France Sweden? Please enlighten us.
Spank86
17-09-14, 05:06 PM
France or Russia. Russia will sell to anyone.
That said I wouldn't think they'll be buying ships, they'll be struggling to keep their shipyards going as it is.
Chances are they'll be given some weapons by the rest of us when they leave. It looks bad if your newly formed state is subject to a military coup by farmers with shotguns, or invasion because you wouldn't let them have any guns.
The Basket
17-09-14, 05:24 PM
The only words I have believed from the separatists in this farce of a debate is Jim Sillars 'day of reckoning' when enemies of the state will be crushed.
I hope its not at the weekend. A Day of Reckoning has a Monday morning feel to it.
Wideboy
17-09-14, 05:34 PM
The US is the biggest arms seller in the world, but I can't see them selling to an independent Scotland and ****ing off the UK. The current UK is the second biggest so you can forget that. So who do you buy from? Russia, France Sweden? Please enlighten us.
I wouldn't count on it. We've sold a fair bit weaponry to the US's enemies in the past, including russia in the cold war.
My old man went to school with Gordon Brown, though he was a few years above him. There's 5 years between them, but Gordon Brown was clever so he got fast tracked into Kirkcaldy High 2 years early. As you can imagine this didn't make him very popular and it made him the smallest by a significant margin, so he had a pretty hard time of it.
You know what Bill Gates says, "Be nice to the geek at school, you're going to end up working for him".
i genuinely never knew that, thanks for sharing :D
i think i now have a little more understanding why the man is so solemn.
I first came to Scottish Nationalism in the early 1990's. It seemed to me that there was a democratic deficit in the way Scotland was governed. At that particular time it was also my view that the decline of the manufacturing industry in Scotland was being dealt with in a particularly ruthless manner and was, in some cases, politically and ideologically motivated. We were selling all the countries assets and spending the money in a sop to a greedy, insatiable electorate.
Support for the SNP, it seemed to me, was a route to agitate for a different deal for Scotland. I joined and campaigned for the SNP but ultimately left because, at grass roots level, there was way too much anti-English sentiment. Not hatred for individuals you understand, but a dislike of some mythical "English" that had it in for us. As someone who had spent most of my life living in England I just didn't recognise that. I knew that, far from wishing to suppress Scotland, most English people spent no time at all thinking about us.
My interest was pro-Scotland, not anti-England so it wasn't for me. I wanted to see a fairer and more compassionate society for everyone. Maybe a choice different to the "money at all costs" that seemed to be taking hold of everyone (despite the fact that the average bloke's share of the money tends to decline while a small group scoop the majority).
I also left the party because I once turned up at a polling station in a suit and, after that, it was only a matter of time before I would be selected to stand. :)
I then lived and worked in Birmingham for a few years and realised that all the concerns I had living in the West of Scotland were identical to those I had living in the Black Country. The history and the people are much more similar than they are different. The complaints there were obviously not about "the English" but about a London centric media and politics that seemed to care little for the ordinary people of the Midlands. Same crime, same villain.
I began to vote Lib Dem as the only mainstream party with any interest in reversing the centralising of power and returning it closer to the people. That remains my main interest in politics.
Devolution answered most of my concerns and I hoped that process would carry on throughout the UK, but it wasn't to be. We therefore now have a situation where the democratic deficit and unfairness has transferred from Scotland to the people of England and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the UK. People are genetically disinclined to accept unfairness and it struck me that the process of devolution to all the countries in the UK would need to continue or it would eventually end in break up anyway.
Most of my arguments for independence in the 90's have largely evaporated but I still want something different that independence may, but may not, deliver.
More compassionate, less aggressive, getting on with business instead of striding across the world stage, focusing on wellbeing rather than money that is unfairly shared.
Maybe a small country would recognise its limitations and be more ready to make decisions on the issues that are currently too big to deal with in the UK. All the problems Scotland faces exist in the UK but it seems only an independent Scotland would need to deal with them. No one goes on to explain the UK solution to these problems. The oil is running out - OK, so how are we dealing with that? There's a demographic pensions timebomb - true, so what are we doing about it? The economy is hugely imbalanced - undoubtedly, so what's the solution? Housing is the root of many of our problems - yeah, but look at what my house is worth, yippee! In a knowledge economy, what will we do with the stupid people? That kind of stuff.
Maybe a small country won't want to hang onto nuclear weapons at huge expense, purely for the prestige they bring. We've dismantled all the other infrastructure to fight a nuclear war - all the command and control bunkers are tourist attractions now.
But most of all, and this applies as much now as it did in the 90's, my fervent hope and aspiration is that independence would stop all the ****ing whining.
Two things that get my goat in Scotland - one group of people who think we're rubbish. That we've got some kind of third world economy. That we're useless. That we exist solely at the largesse of others. Lots of Scots have this opinion. Lots of them.
The other group who bitch about Westminster and the English. Who blame someone else for the bad things and take the credit for the good when, in fact, we did it all together. A big boy did it. Boo hoo, here's a ****ing hanky.
Not only is all of that total ********, it does nothing for the country, nothing for the future.
If we have independence, and it's successful, both sides will gloat. If not they can all shut the **** up. But maybe some will be motivated to get off their **** and prove both sides wrong. Maybe.
Billy Connolly's got it right. Scotland will get what it deserves.
In any event, we're not going to slide into the sea. I have absolutely no concerns for my own welfare or future whichever way it goes. You may say I'm mad, and my sister who works in the mental health business would agree with you, but there it is. I may well be a borderline sociopath and dysfunctional overachiever attempting to repair my broken self-esteem, but at least my Dad's finally proud of me. ;)
What I'm increasingly convinced of is that, whichever way the vote goes, in 5 years time we'll regret it. :)
Apologies for the long post.
TL;DR version: Oh look, Tam's had a breakdown.
kaivalagi
17-09-14, 06:18 PM
If we have independence, and it's successful, both sides will gloat. If not they can all shut the **** up. But maybe some will be motivated to get off their **** and prove both sides wrong. Maybe.
What a breath of fresh air after all that nationalist crap I've been seeing everywhere,
If Scotland does go independent I'd hope it might spur on some changes good for the rest of the UK, maybe after which we could re-unite :)
There are too many big questions that have not been answered. Even if the vote was yes, it would be years & years from implementation as the infrastructure isn't in place to support everything that would have to be changed.
Personally, I hope Scotland does not get independence.
Fordward
17-09-14, 07:52 PM
I was intrigued by Bibio's comment on buying weapons. I can't imagine what they would need apart from aircraft and perhaps some infantry weapons.
The US is the biggest arms seller in the world, but I can't see them selling to an independent Scotland and ****ing off the UK. The current UK is the second biggest so you can forget that. So who do you buy from? Russia, France Sweden? Please enlighten us.
Why would it **** off the UK? They would be allies, not enemies.
Fordward
17-09-14, 07:57 PM
i genuinely never knew that, thanks for sharing :D
i think i now have a little more understanding why the man is so solemn.
As a politician he heavily criticised fast tracking kids through school, said there was more to schooling that just the academic side.
Fordward
17-09-14, 08:01 PM
Apologies for the long post
Not at all, it was a brilliant post, thank you.
What a breath of fresh air after all that nationalist crap I've been seeing everywhere,
yes it was but i never wanted to say anything as Tam's head is big enough ;)
but i must give credit where credit is due :)
garynortheast
17-09-14, 11:44 PM
Excellent post Tam. Thanks for taking the time.
BanannaMan
18-09-14, 04:15 AM
Well, it's that day.
Best of Luck Scotland!
(And all our Scottish org members)
However the vote, may it be for the best.
jamesymurray
18-09-14, 06:50 AM
This really has been one very interesting thread to follow.
As someone of Scottish parentage, born and raised in England, with family north of the border, and very proud to be British, I personally want to see us remain together as one. Sadly, I don't get a say in the decision.
Whichever way the cards fall, however, the best of luck and may it be for the better for us all in the future.
Well, I've had my say at the polling station at 07:00. Made my vote count. I hope come the next general election, that for the second time, my vote will also count and we will get a democratically voted government in charge of Scotland.
We'll find out in 24.
SOAR ALBA.
DarrenSV650S
18-09-14, 08:01 AM
I didn't realise English get to vote :/
The Basket
18-09-14, 08:10 AM
Voting at 7 o'clock?
You camp outside? Couldn't sleep?
I will be voting at a more relaxing hour.
Oh by the by...no currency union, no euro.
But they still accept empties at the off licence.
Or perhaps a barter system? A gallon of petrol for two pigs. If its a yes vote then we will.
Don't leave it too late. I was there at 7:45 and the polling station was mobbed. Never seen it so busy.
Couldn't wait to vote, to get a say in my future - I hope !
Most of YES votes will be in early, because we care so much. Not this, it's crap so why make it crappier attitude.
SOAR ALBA.
with the people who voted on this poll there are 7-2 of people that live in Scotland in favour of the yes vote. personally i just hope that the votes in the polling stations reflect this :-)
i'll be getting round there soon.
I think that the stock market is anticipating a NO vote. By Monday this week, a huge chung had been wiped off my share portfolio. Today, the share prices have risen markedly, almost wiping out the previous losses.
Spank86
18-09-14, 03:00 PM
That or people have simply realised that the majority of the shares that dived won't actually be affected and as such they looked like very attractive offers at the lower price.
The Basket
18-09-14, 05:12 PM
I would say it's been emotional.
But it's been a joke.
So going gym.
And then bed.
Peace out y'all
they think its new year in George Square, Glasgow.
http://www.camscape.com/view/30635
kaivalagi
18-09-14, 06:53 PM
Any excuse for a drink lol ;)
carelesschucca
18-09-14, 06:58 PM
strange thing about that is you can't drink on Glasgows streets. So they'll all be sober:smt044
AYE RIGHT!!!
andrewsmith
18-09-14, 07:04 PM
Bucky does look like coke in a plastic bottle
Spank86
18-09-14, 07:26 PM
Who's brave enough to go down there and wave a union flag?
littleoldman2
18-09-14, 07:30 PM
They should cheer as it was designed by a Scottish King and had to be forced on to the English.
MisterTommyH
18-09-14, 07:36 PM
Is this next?
http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/GREEN-930x464.jpg
Edit: Actually this is probably more like it...
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71502000/jpg/_71502906_union-like-(2).jpg
kaivalagi
18-09-14, 08:24 PM
I wouldn't mind a dragon on it somewhere, would be kind of cool
Are we seriously going to change our flag though, all the commonwealth will need to follow too...some of those pale blues and greens will clash :)
Wideboy
18-09-14, 08:34 PM
no something cool, with flames. Lightning and flames. You can't go wrong with lightning and flames.
no something cool, with flames. Lightning and flames. You can't go wrong with lightning and flames.
And one of them silhouettes of a naked woman that lorry drivers have on their mudflaps. That would be awesome!
Wideboy
18-09-14, 08:40 PM
that would finish it off nicely!
I think we should change the national anthem after that.
Fordward
18-09-14, 09:18 PM
i9nnnM-__JQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ
votes are in, ballot boxes are on their way to be counted. good luck to both sides.
Spank86
18-09-14, 10:04 PM
I honestly hope it's not a close result. The bigger the majority on one side the better for Scotland's future, but I reckon it'll be tight,
Matt-EUC
18-09-14, 10:10 PM
I've got a fiver on a recount.
Spank86
18-09-14, 10:21 PM
They can't have a total recount, they can only ask for recounts at individual polling stations.
MisterTommyH
18-09-14, 10:24 PM
...and only based on procedural issues - not due to the closeness of the result.
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