The Org Scottish Referendum

[MisterTommyH]

But bib, the whole point is it's not up to the politicians that you've elected. It's up to each and every scot on Thursday.

[Spank86]

our money is worthless due to in not having the word England printed on it.
.

Actually the reason it's worthless is because there's no legal obligation to accept it.

It's merely negotiable currency.

If I'm in debt and I turn up somewhere with English money the person I owe it to is obliged to accept it.

If I turn up with Scottish they can tell me to jog on.

[Bibio]

Its called democracy. SNP democracy. I have seen that too.
Its an advertisement for the Scotland they want.

yes because the people of Scotland voted that party in as their representation in Westminster and to 'run' Scotland. all they are doing in reality is taking the right to be a representative in Westminster away.

defacing the NO banners just shows how passionate certain Scots feel about the independence of their country, at least the Scots are not doing it by way of bullets. these very same Scotsmen have been 'Scotland for the Scottish' for far longer than the thought of an independence vote was on the table. yes i will say that most of them are your typical mindless morons but they love the country they were raised in and want independence be it good or bad. they would do exactly the same in England given the same circumstances but the tables turned and Holyrood was the main power of the UK. there are mindless morons everywhere and blaming the SNP for the actions of these people just goes to show how bitter YOU are about the up coming referendum.

[Bibio]

But bib, the whole point is it's not up to the politicians that you've elected. It's up to each and every scot on Thursday.

hooray sense at last :thumbsup:

the Scottish population voting SNP into power was the first stepping stone to an independent Scotland so NOW its up to the public to decide.

once the vote has been cast then its up to the politicians again to work everything out.

[The Basket]

What you call passion.
I call mindless vandalism.
I like the bitter comment. Typical example of someone who disagrees with you.
Is 'bitter' Why not passionate?

[Bibio]

ok then i'll call you passionate if you like big boy.. lets say a nice dark car park of your choosing in an hour and i'll roll down the window and you can pop it in my mouth.. does that make you feel better, or should i say would that make you feel better :-)

[The Basket]

Sounds like you do that for a living.
Or is it more a hobby.
Sadly I don't swing that way but the offer is on the table and its the best offer I will get all night.
Anyhoo. Ur boring me now. So good night.

[Bibio]

night night lover, sleep tight.

[carelesschucca]

Haw you! I thought those words were for me and me alone. I'm starting to have doubts about us Lance!

[The Basket]

Ask if he's got a blonde wig and lipstick.

[Bibio]

Haw you! I thought those words were for me and me alone. I'm starting to have doubts about us Lance!

dont worry your still my number one lover

Ask if he's got a blonde wig and lipstick.

now funny you should say that... where that photo..

[SIII]

I fear with all the claptrap & lies spouted by the media this week, the common man will be in abject fear of independence.

This saddens me.

The SNP's founder, R.B. Cunninghame Graham is quoted as saying:

"The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination"

[Fordward]

kids will be kids just because you had a bad experience as a child, has it made you bitter to the Scottish population?
your not the only one m8 i spent 4 years in Rhodesia and South Africa before moving back to Scotland when i was 6 so can you imagine what it was like for me living in the centre of Edinburgh with a very very good tan, talking and looking like a 'nigger' but with blond hair, lets just say i learnt to fight very very quickly. am i bitter about it? no


No not bitter, just aware, seen both sides, able to judge, but also able to remain impartial, see both sides of the debate.

Your experience seems the same as mine, being away was fine, its returning home that the problems started! And have you ever noticed how many of these problems originate with people who have never been away?

It's the anti-English stuff that comes across as bitter. Bitter about Edward 1st, the Union, Thatcher, Poll Tax, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, British Petroleum, London Wealth, and just Westminster in general.

Its time Scotland dropped the past and looked to the future, maybe this referendum is exactly what it needs.




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[The Basket]

Bibio....
I'm English....
So is that offer still good?
That would be some Cross border cooperation.

[Fordward]

I agree when the No posters have been vandalised, and the Yes are intact, it just says to me all the uneducated thugs are voting yes.

(Which is not the same as saying all yes voters are uneducated thugs)

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[Bibio]

Its time Scotland dropped the past and looked to the future, maybe this referendum is exactly what it needs.




Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

thats exactly the thing i'm looking for in an independent Scotland :thumbsup:


now for the delights of The_Basket here is a blonde bombshell.. look away now or forever be mentally scarred.




http://i62.tinypic.com/10rs5fd.jpg

[The Basket]

Jeez.
But you did say a very dark car park.

[Bibio]

yes and i promise not to turn the lights on. heheheeee

[TamSV]

I hate to say it...but I've actually had worse :)

[Fordward]

Oh darling, we should get together more often!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd82/colinbal4/20140724_214808_zps12wzah60.jpg

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[Bibio]

we would make a fine couple, would feel sorry for the kids though.. lol

[The Basket]

I hate to say it...but I've actually had worse :)

I would class that as a win.

[dizzyblonde]

kids will be kids just because you had a bad experience as a child, has it made you bitter to the Scottish population?
your not the only one m8 i spent 4 years in Rhodesia and South Africa before moving back to Scotland when i was 6 so can you imagine what it was like for me living in the centre of Edinburgh with a very very good tan, talking and looking like a 'nigger' but with blond hair, lets just say i learnt to fight very very quickly. am i bitter about it? no.



Ahhhhh same for wee Pegged leg. Born in London, raised in Cyprus. Educated in Scotland the hard way. Couldn't speak a word of English at 6. Funny Greek, tanned boy. Mistaken for being a Pakistani and having the crap beaten out of him regularly. Fought a lot with fists of fury. Madeth him the man that he is today. Eee Scotland in the 70s was a hard place to be!

Now mistaken for a West Coaster.
He loves Scotland :-D

[Fordward]

Ahhhhh same for wee Pegged leg. Born in London, raised in Cyprus. Educated in Scotland the hard way. Couldn't speak a word of English at 6. Funny Greek, tanned boy. Mistaken for being a Pakistani and having the crap beaten out of him regularly. Fought a lot with fists of fury. Madeth him the man that he is today. Eee Scotland in the 70s was a hard place to be!

Now mistaken for a West Coaster.
He loves Scotland :-D

Did he have any such problems in London or Cyprus?

I love Scotland too, but it is an unfortunate fact that racism and bigotry are still rife, particularly in less affluent areas. It's a problem that Scotland needs to admit to, face up to, and deal with.

[Fordward]

If you get independence, for gods sakes get rid of Salmond and Sturgeon the first chance you get.

They know the majority of the population don't understand economics, or the rules of EU membership, or the way the private companies that tap Oil, Gas and Wind make money, or the way countries like Norway operate.

They know this and they know that they can say whatever they want, and publish whatever propaganda they want, and so long as it sounds reasonable to the layman in the street, it will be believed, even if it isn't true.

They know this, and they are deliberately misleading the people of Scotland.

Deliberately misleading my countrymen, and because I live in England I don't get a vote on it, even though I'd be entitled to apply for Scottish citizenship if it happens. That was another deliberate move by the SNP to keep the vote within the demographic where they were most likely to win, and to keep the administration costs down by using the existing electoral role.

I'm not against an independent Scotland per se, but the way those two are going about it boils my p!55!

[pegasus]

Did he have any such problems in London or Cyprus?

I love Scotland too, but it is an unfortunate fact that racism and bigotry are still rife, particularly in less affluent areas. It's a problem that Scotland needs to admit to, face up to, and deal with.

The 70's in Scotland were a time of cultural change, I was different in looks and ethnicity in a place that didn't know how to accept different cultures, nowadays it's a different ballgame, Scotland is so cultured and diverse, I would recommend it to anyone.

London has always been multi cultural, so I never had an issue with racism there, just the occasional "sweaty sock" thing because of my accent.
Cyprus I am,alway treated like a long lost son, love and respect in abundance.

I hope this answers your questions.

[Fordward]

The 70's in Scotland were a time of cultural change, I was different in looks and ethnicity in a place that didn't know how to accept different cultures, nowadays it's a different ballgame, Scotland is so cultured and diverse, I would recommend it to anyone.

London has always been multi cultural, so I never had an issue with racism there, just the occasional "sweaty sock" thing because of my accent.
Cyprus I am,alway treated like a long lost son, love and respect in abundance.

I hope this answers your questions.

It does answer the question, and while I agree that some areas of Scotland are cultured and diverse, there are many others, which most certainly are not. It's easy to see the good side when your there on your holidays, and of course touristy areas are always going to be diverse. I can't speak as a resident for the last 5 years, but prior to that I lived in Scotland. My wife wasn't welcome in our village pub because she was Catholic. The local shop was run by "that curry stinking, cheating, paki". Lots of people on this thread have said they've experienced anti-English sentiment on visits to Scotland. Some of the anti-English crap that's been shared on Facebook during this past few weeks is shocking. There is still violence every time Herts play Hibs, or rangers play Celtic (though I admit football can cause violence anywhere, it's in Scotland where the issue behind it is differing religion).

Yet, it gets mentioned on forums and people have a tendency to deny the problem exists, and say it's no worse than anywhere else. Well go live in a less affluent area with no tourists, and it is worse.

Until people recognise there's a problem, they can't deal with it.

[The Basket]

I'm not against an independent Scotland per se, but the way those two are going about it boils my p!55!

Some of stuff I have read simply is cloud cuckoo land.
But it is what it is. And hope for the best. So there we go.

I can go on but it won't change anything

[dizzyblonde]

Did he have any such problems in London or Cyprus?

I love Scotland too, but it is an unfortunate fact that racism and bigotry are still rife, particularly in less affluent areas. It's a problem that Scotland needs to admit to, face up to, and deal with.

He personally maybe be treat like King Petros of Cyprus, however as a collective those who are first, second third generation Cypriots born in other countries because of being in the Diaspora are called 'Charlies' by those who have never left the island because of all the troubles. I know this as I read Cypriot forums and group pages, and this is quite clear for all to see. Although there maybe leniency towards them, for example when searching for work, over other foreigners, but that's just it, foreign born Cypriots aren't foreigners!
I suppose it's like a Scotsman having resided elsewhere other than his homeland.
Happens everywhere. Not restricted to Scotland.
Anyway, slightly derailing away from the subject....

[TamSV]

Some of stuff I have read simply is cloud cuckoo land.

But it is what it is. And hope for the best. So there we go.



I can go on but it won't change anything


The level of "debate" has been pretty depressing all round. The politicians have been bad enough but they're disingenuous for a living. The general public are shocking.

So much negativity on both sides. Loads of chippy jocks moaning about the evil English government on one side and a desperately negative view of Scotland on the other. I'm tempted to abstain in despair.

Thank god I'm not on Facebook. A pal had a comment on his page from someone who said she was voting no because she didn't want to live in Alex Salmonds Catholic state. WTF?

[dizzyblonde]

The level of "debate" has been pretty depressing all round. The politicians have been bad enough but they're disingenuous for a living. The general public are shocking.

So much negativity on both sides. Loads of chippy jocks moaning about the evil English government on one side and a desperately negative view of Scotland on the other. I'm tempted to abstain in despair.

Thank god I'm not on Facebook. A pal had a comment on his page from someone who said she was voting no because she didn't want to live in Alex Salmonds Catholic state. WTF?
Facebook is filled with misguided 'shares' of information. Very much in the style of Britain First post. Folk sucked in by statements of fact that aren't entirely correct. I've a friend in the yes camp, and I have to constantly tell him to shut up because of it. Especially the very boring Tory bashing. Poor excuse for a yes vote!

[The Basket]

Yep.
I don't recognise the UK the nats put across. Its a Somalia North Korea hybrid. No freedom no democracy and enemies of the state everywhere.

An example of how bad the debate is that George Golloway has become chief defender of the union!
If that don't beat all.

[Bibio]

i would like to know what the rest of the world and most of all what the Europeans think of the Scottish referendum but either my googlefoo is not good enough or i'm not watching enough TV news broadcasts which seems to me that there is a deliberate blackout of information.

or is it just me. if it is then could someone point me in the right direction.

[Spank86]

I think most of them have their own problems and it's only a few of the higher ups in places like Spain and Belgium taking notice and they have a vested interest in Scotland voting no.

[TamSV]

It is certainly getting coverage on US news channels but fairly superficial.

If you think of our coverage of the similar referendums in Quebec. It makes the news but no one really gives a ****. :)

[BanannaMan]

I'll repeat a PM I sent to someone wondering how the referendum was being viewed on this side of the pond.


I have no doubt you've not heard news from this side of the pond.
The UK media seems very much against Scottish idependence.
All Scottish Americans, The US media and the most of the general population here are overwhelmingly for it.

The complete silence on the issue from the US government says they support it too, else they'd be condeming it publicly as they did with Quebec's referendum.

Obama however needs the UK's support for the latest campaign in Iraq and since his speach earlier this week Scotland has suddenly not been mentioned in the news here. :sad:

The Canadian press and government are very much against Scottish independence fearing Quebec may again seek the same.
The people of Quebec warn you'll be worse off if you vote no after all the promises made by the government there to get no votes never came to be.


I wish you the best of luck but worry the powers that be (who control the media) will end up swaying the vote at the last minute as they did in Canada with lies, attacks and false promises.




If you've not decided, do some research on your own, at this point all you'll get from the media is government controlled propaganda.

[kaivalagi]

If you've not decided, do some research on your own, at this point all you'll get from the media is government controlled propaganda.

I have to admit there is some substance to this...yesterday there were BIG shows of support for the Yes vote on the streets, as seen in various social media shared videos, but the BBC didn't let any of it hit the headlines.

[The Basket]

Alex Salmond plans to get rid of BBC in Scotland.
SBS. And I am sure that it will only tell the truth.

All Scottish Americans support independence?
So? And how many?

[Bibio]

Alex Salmond plans to get rid of BBC in Scotland.
SBS. And I am sure that it will only tell the truth.

All Scottish Americans support independence?
So? And how many?

could you please tell me what it means that 'Salmond' plans to get rid of the BBC?

please dont nit pick with comments made by Bananaman. at moment as he is not well and we are lucky to have his input at all. so out of decency can you just take what he says, with a pinch of salt if you must.

yes it was me that asked by PM what the media and views of the US public was as i was curious due to the media blackout of worldwide opinion on Scotland's referendum. i asked politely and got an answer which Bananaman never had to repeat but he did. all that know Bananaman know that he is one very very nice bloke who has no interest in telling lies.

[The Basket]

The BBC in an independent Scotland will be replaced by the SBS or Scottish broadcasting Service.

[Spank86]

could you please tell me what it means that 'Salmond' plans to get rid of the BBC?


I think it means that he intends to have his own public broadcaster in Scotland not that he intends to launch an attack on broadcasting house.


I'd imagine a Scottish broadcaster would buy a lot of BBC content.

[Bibio]

well that makes sense to me if Scotland is an independent country as the licence fees will go directly to the Scottish Government who in turn will more than likely buy content from the BBC but also create some of our own. that sound like the best of both worlds if you ask me. Scotland will then end up with more Scottish based content.. wooohooo.

[Matt-EUC]

You already have BBC alba, what more do you want?!

[Bibio]

the BBC has lots of regional broadcasting but Scotland might not have a choice in the matter if its an independent country.

[Teejayexc]

...... that sound like the best of both worlds if you ask me. Scotland will then end up with more Scottish based content.. wooohooo.



Haggis bake off, Saturday Deep Fried Day, Football for beginners, Curling Match of the Day, Caber Tossing Olympics, Universally Challenged, Salmond's Weekly Round Up......

[Spank86]

well that makes sense to me if Scotland is an independent country as the licence fees will go directly to the Scottish Government who in turn will more than likely buy content from the BBC but also create some of our own. that sound like the best of both worlds if you ask me. Scotland will then end up with more Scottish based content.. wooohooo.

It depends, you could wind up paying more per head to the bbc, or it could wind up cheaper.

The Scottish content would have to battle bbc content for cash using only 8odd % of the current licence fee unless they put it up. Personally I reckon you'd have a change of getting adverts.

[carelesschucca]

You already have BBC alba, what more do you want?!

I want OHBC!

[Bibio]

Haggis bake off, Saturday Deep Fried Day, Football for beginners, Curling Match of the Day, Caber Tossing Olympics, Universally Challenged, Salmond's Weekly Round Up......

as a Scotsman that sounds fantastic. where do i sign.

[Bibio]

It depends, you could wind up paying more per head to the bbc, or it could wind up cheaper.

The Scottish content would have to battle bbc content for cash using only 8odd % of the current licence fee unless they put it up. Personally I reckon you'd have a change of getting adverts.

lets face it the day to day content of the BBC is not the best now is it. i dont watch that much TV and when i do the only thing i watch that is on the BBC is Dr Who and Sherlock as the rest is mindless mass consumer visual tat.

i dont get this whole thing about it going to cost the Scottish public more for this and that as i have seen no hard evidence of such things, yes i might be blind to it being a Scotsman who will vote yes but thats my prerogative. i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent. or is it just plain bitterness that the high and mighty England is loosing yet another one of its pets.

yes Scotland will have a lot of work to do if it does win but according to the media we wont make it work unless we are part of the union which means to me that what they are trying to say is that 'you are costing the rest of the UK money to be in the union' well if thats the case then the rest of the union should be happy we are leaving as there should be more money for the rest of you.

[21QUEST]

lets face it the day to day content of the BBC is not the best now is it. i dont watch that much TV and when i do the only thing i watch that is on the BBC is Dr Who and Sherlock as the rest is mindless mass consumer visual tat.

i dont get this whole thing about it going to cost the Scottish public more for this and that as i have seen no hard evidence of such things, yes i might be blind to it being a Scotsman who will vote yes but thats my prerogative. i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent. or is it just plain bitterness that the high and mighty England is loosing yet another one of its pets.

yes Scotland will have a lot of work to do if it does win but according to the media we wont make it work unless we are part of the union which means to me that what they are trying to say is that 'you are costing the rest of the UK money to be in the union' well if thats the case then the rest of the union should be happy we are leaving as there should be more money for the rest of you.

You are asking some of the questions(confusion) I've got going round in my head....

Perhaps, I'd make another post tomorrow and see if it might be possible for folks(anyone) to educate me a bit more.

I've not read all the posts but a good and interesting read so far.

[Spank86]

i dont get this whole thing about it going to cost the Scottish public more for this and that as i have seen no hard evidence of such things, .
You think the BBC will sell you programs at cost price?

Or perhaps that 9% of the UK can make programs cheaper and to the same quality as 100% of it?

As I said it also MAY be cheaper... If it is though I suspect it will be very poor quality and if you think the BBC is bad you should try maltese TV.

according to the media we wont make it work unless we are part of the union which means to me that what they are trying to say is that 'you are costing the rest of the UK money to be in the union' well if thats the case then the rest of the union should be happy we are leaving as there should be more money for the rest of you.
I've already shown the maths in this thread. Maths direct from the Scottish government website.

Even with oil Scotland runs a slightly higher deficit than the rest of the UK for all services but I believe that per head we'll all be paying more if we start duplicating services for two separate countries.

I don't see the UK losing 9% of civil servants in the event of independence (And even if we do, it wont be 9% of the wages bill) and I doubt Scotland can set up a complete public sector for 9% of the price of the UK's although I have no hard numbers on that, I wouldn't know where to start.

[The Basket]

Perhaps the yes campaigns economic argument is less than convincing.
Perhaps people are doing OK in the UK and don't want to risk.
Perhaps the UK actually means something.
Perhaps.

[Fordward]

Spank just hit the nail on the head with one of of the issues for England, economies of scale.

Another issue combined to that is jobs. Civil servants currently do jobs that cover the whole of the UK, if we loose 9% of the population, we won't be able to loose 9% of the jobs because the same work still needs to be done, so the same departments and structure still need to exist, but for a lesser workload. There will be redundancies, and because structure and departmental management will still be needed, it will be the lower end of the pay scale that gets cut, the people that are doing the doing. In shouldn't cost the UK anything to make them redundant as TUPE laws should protect them and the new organisation setting up the same service in Scotland will be obliged to either offer each person a job in Scotland, or cover the cost of their redundancy, but we still don't want those people out of work. Yes, other jobs will migrate south, so the overall unemployment total may not change, but they will be different jobs requiring different skill sets, and probably based in a different location. Look at organisations like the DVLA, when they have millions fewer driving licenses and registration documents to administer. The DVLA is a massive employer in Swansea.

The same will go for any organisation that sells services in Scotland, the cost of doing business will go up, so the price to the consumer will go up, so consumers in Scotland may just switch to locally provided services.

If there is a yes vote on Thursday, you can guarantee on Friday, then again on Monday because the Eastern markets will have been open for ages by the time the result is announced on Friday morning UK time, there will be a massive wipe down of share prices of UK companies, and it will trigger another run on the pound as a currency like we saw last Monday, but this time a bigger one. Investors have a choice where there they put their money, so if the UK pound has an uncertain future, and exchange rates are dropping, they'll just move their investments. What I wouldn't be surprised to see if Yes is Westminster announce officially that they will not be a currency union, that the decision is made and they won't even negotiate on it with the SNP, this would hold some of the confidence in the pound with overseas markets. (If you think Scotland gets screwed over by Westminster now, you wait until after a Yes vote when they go into self preservation mode, they won't give Salmond anything he's promised the Scottish people, but of course it wasn't his place to make the promise in the first place, so it'll serve him right and the people who were blind enough to follow the pied piper).

Will come back and post more UK wide impact later, need to take the wee one to school.

[SvNewbie]

What I wouldn't be surprised to see if Yes is Westminster announce officially that they will not be a currency union, that the decision is made and they won't even negotiate on it with the SNP, this would hold some of the confidence in the pound with overseas markets.

Every single opinion I've read on this from actual economists says that Scotland would be worse off in a currency union and rUK would be crazy to accept a currency union.

I can't believe that the SNP aren't aware of that. My bet is that they are hiding it from Yes voters because they think the prospect is a bit too scary for those near the fence.

Interestingly from what I've seen joining the Euro is actually not really an option. Which leaves continuing to use GBP without a formal union or a new Scottish currency.

[The Basket]

No currency union
No Euro.
At this present moment in time,
Independent Scotland doesn't have a currency or even a possible agreement on a currency.

I am no economist but I think that could be a pickle.

[carelesschucca]

I can't believe that the SNP aren't aware of that. My bet is that they are hiding it from Yes voters because they think the prospect is a bit too scary for those near the fence. They probably are aware but...

The YES campaign is built on Optimism, and only optimism, pragmatism and pessimism are not allowed. SO IN OTHER WORDS BLIND FAITH!

[punyXpress]

The answer is, and always has been, to use the Pound Stirling.
Don't think the Canadians and Australians asked US of A for their permission to use $$$

[TamSV]

Every single opinion I've read on this from actual economists says that Scotland would be worse off in a currency union and rUK would be crazy to accept a currency union.

I can't believe that the SNP aren't aware of that. My bet is that they are hiding it from Yes voters because they think the prospect is a bit too scary for those near the fence.

Interestingly from what I've seen joining the Euro is actually not really an option. Which leaves continuing to use GBP without a formal union or a new Scottish currency.

I agree. If, as the SNP predict, the Scottish economy will boom and rUK will not (or if the opposite happens) the last thing you need is a central bank that won't respond to that. We know from looking at Ireland and Greece what happens in both those situations. The best solution is likely a Scottish central bank and an independent currency.

As you say the SNP must know this but then you're into the politics. The UK government are not willing to negotiate in advance of the referendum - it would be politically impossible for them to do so. This leaves the SNP needing to fill the void but free to come up with pretty much anything they like as a suggested outcome.

As they are seeking to convince non-SNP supporters to their cause, they have unsurprisingly come up with a package that is designed not to frighten the horses - to suggest that everything will be the same. This has some logical flaws of course. Why would you want to leave the UK and all its institutions only to then create a tiny identikit version of it all?

As an example, many in the SNP are republican to their core. For the party to say they will keep the Queen is, to me, an obvious electoral ploy. Many hope that the issue of the monarchy will be dealt with after independence so they are not talking about it now. You could argue that's fair enough as it is a different issue but it illustrates the point that the type of Scotland the SNP are proposing is not necessarily the Scotland they actually want to see and, anyway, as it's all subject to the uncertain outcome of negotiations, it's not something they can ever hope to deliver in its entirety.

As someone who leans towards independence this causes me some issues. My problem is not that I disagree with the SNP manifesto, although I do believe it to be flawed. Political manifesto's are rarely delivered and I would hope this one will be no different. In any event the Yes campaign is bigger than the SNP. Many people will vote Yes who do not support that party just the same as many people who voted SNP at the last election will vote No in the referendum. From my own perspective, it probably suits that as much as possible stays the same, including a currency union of some description. The various political parties can then adjust to the new reality and we go from there. Our problem at the moment is that there is no competing mainstream vision for an independent Scotland.

I do have some concern for the people who don't spend too much time thinking about such matters who may not realise they are being sold a pup. That things may initially be the same, but they won't stay that way. Then again, those are the people who don't normally vote and, if they did, may be destined to always be misled by the next politician with a good story - so maybe I shouldn't worry about them so much. :)

[Fordward]

The answer is, and always has been, to use the Pound Stirling.
Don't think the Canadians and Australians asked US of A for their permission to use $$$

There's a difference between using the pound independently without permission, and using it as part of a currency union, whereby the Scottish central bank would be backed by the UK, and Scotland would maintain a level of influence over the Bank of England. That's not going to happen, even though Salmond says he can negotiate it and that is his stated Plan A

So, Plan B is using it independently which means absolutely no control over interest rates, etc, etc. Scotland would be as beholden to the UK as it is now.

Plan C, using the Euro doesn't work, Scotland would be beholden to Brussels, Spain and Greece have proved that, and they have a lot more influence over the Central European Bank than Scotland would have over the Bank of England. Though at least they may have someone to bail them out if it goes wrong.

So Plan D, which I think is the best one, is to create an all new Scottish currency, based in Edinburgh. That would take time for confidence in the currency to build, but at least that would give Scotland control over it's own currency in the long term.

If you want independence because in Mel Gibsons words, you want a 'country of your own', that's fair enough, but the SNP do not have a credible story to tell, about how you get there.

[Spank86]

The answer is, and always has been, to use the Pound Stirling.
Don't think the Canadians and Australians asked US of A for their permission to use $$$

Scotland are free to use whichever keyboard symbol they like. they can even call it Scottish sterling.


unless youre suggesting the aussie and canuck $'s are the same as USA ones?

[Bibio]

yes Scotland will have no currency, yes Scotland will have no financial status in fact Scotland will have nothing and surprise surprise that's because it will be a new country. everything is uncertain for Scotland's future its true and you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that.

i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent.

i fear this is where the real problem lies and nothing to do with if Scotland can look after itself or not. if Scotland gets independence its going to cause a financial meltdown across the whole of the UK be it temporary or not.

instead of the two governments sitting down and actually helping each other work out the problems in the up coming referendum they have been at each others throats. how do you think this is looking in the eyes of the rest of the world...

[Fordward]

I agree. If, as the SNP predict, the Scottish economy will boom and rUK will not (or if the opposite happens) the last thing you need is a central bank that won't respond to that. We know from looking at Ireland and Greece what happens in both those situations. The best solution is likely a Scottish central bank and an independent currency.

As you say the SNP must know this but then you're into the politics. The UK government are not willing to negotiate in advance of the referendum - it would be politically impossible for them to do so. This leaves the SNP needing to fill the void but free to come up with pretty much anything they like as a suggested outcome.

As they are seeking to convince non-SNP supporters to their cause, they have unsurprisingly come up with a package that is designed not to frighten the horses - to suggest that everything will be the same. This has some logical flaws of course. Why would you want to leave the UK and all its institutions only to then create a tiny identikit version of it all?

As an example, many in the SNP are republican to their core. For the party to say they will keep the Queen is, to me, an obvious electoral ploy. Many hope that the issue of the monarchy will be dealt with after independence so they are not talking about it now. You could argue that's fair enough as it is a different issue but it illustrates the point that the type of Scotland the SNP are proposing is not necessarily the Scotland they actually want to see and, anyway, as it's all subject to the uncertain outcome of negotiations, it's not something they can ever hope to deliver in its entirety.

As someone who leans towards independence this causes me some issues. My problem is not that I disagree with the SNP manifesto, although I do believe it to be flawed. Political manifesto's are rarely delivered and I would hope this one will be no different. In any event the Yes campaign is bigger than the SNP. Many people will vote Yes who do not support that party just the same as many people who voted SNP at the last election will vote No in the referendum. From my own perspective, it probably suits that as much as possible stays the same, including a currency union of some description. The various political parties can then adjust to the new reality and we go from there. Our problem at the moment is that there is no competing mainstream vision for an independent Scotland.

I do have some concern for the people who don't spend too much time thinking about such matters who may not realise they are being sold a pup. That things may initially be the same, but they won't stay that way. Then again, those are the people who don't normally vote and, if they did, may be destined to always be misled by the next politician with a good story - so maybe I shouldn't worry about them so much. :)

Excellent post. Just to expand on the bit in bold, there is a general election in March 2015 (which is probably what you meant by politically impossible to do so). Nobody in the UK government will even start negotiating on that (if they even negotiate and don't just turn Scotland down flat and say no) until after the General Election. A different party could get in, and so Salmond doesn't even know who he'll be negotiating with. Not that I'm sure that would change the outcome, which would be no, because Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem already agree on that.

Furthermore, the UK politicians are going to be concentrating on the General Election, Scottish independence is nowhere on their list of priorities, so no negotiations on anything will take place until after the general election. Salmonds timescales of independence by 2016 are nothing but a fantasy.

Also totally agree that the best currency solution is a Scottish central bank and an independent currency.

[Spank86]

It's not the English getting upset, it's the British.

[Fordward]

yes Scotland will have no currency, yes Scotland will have no financial status in fact Scotland will have nothing and surprise surprise that's because it will be a new country. everything is uncertain for Scotland's future its true and you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that.



i fear this is where the real problem lies and nothing to do with if Scotland can look after itself or not. if Scotland gets independence its going to cause a financial meltdown across the whole of the UK be it temporary or not.

instead of the two governments sitting down and actually helping each other work out the problems in the up coming referendum they have been at each others throats. how do you think this is looking in the eyes of the rest of the world...

Absolutely correct. A Yes vote will temporarily damage us all, the rUK will recover, but given we are only just recovering from the last downturn, we don't want another one, and neither should the people of Scotland.

Whether or not Scotland ever recovers, or goes bankrupt, will depend who you've got at the top and what decisions they've made. As you've said in your post it's all an unknown. Those people are going to need to be clever, committed, passionate, determined and most importantly non-self serving (so get rid of Salmond first opportunity you get).

Whether or not you vote Yes next Thursday, depends entirely on whether you think that risk is worth it, and whether or not you can trust your politicians to take you in the right direction. If I had a vote it would be No, because I wouldn't trust the SNP and don't know who'd replace them so I can't possibly decide whether I'd trust them or not.

Whether you like it or not, the independence argument is wider than the SNP, but it is still all about the people that govern you.

Once you've gone independent, you've started the ball rolling, the yacht race is in motion, you are just a passenger, and your just going to have to hope you have the winning team at the helm. Because if you loose, your bankrupt, there's no way out!

Think carefully about this vote Bib's, it's the most important cross you will ever put on a ballot paper.

[Fordward]

It's not the English getting upset, it's the British.

Yes, the economist in that video was rather passionate about it, and he was Scottish.

50% of the people in Scotland planning to vote No, are rather passionate about it, and they are Scottish.

This isn't an England vs Scotland debate.

Everyone that is discussing this so passionately on this thread is pro-Scotland. Anti-Scotland and Anti-Independence are not the same thing.

[MisterTommyH]

. i really dont see why the English are getting so upset about the Scottish referendum unless they have something to loose so please enlighten me what difference is it going to make to the rest of the UK if Scotland does become independent. or is it just plain bitterness that the high and mighty England is loosing yet another one of its pets.


No, It's not bitterness at all. As has been said, if you do vote Yes then good luck to you.

We are, however, still entitled to our opinion. Many of us are quite keen on the union, and on Scotland, and on our country as it currently is. And yes, we think we will be worse off because of it, but thats not the first consideration.

If your best mate was marrying (or even divorcing) someone and you thought they were making a mistake, would you not at least try and have a word... convince them to re-consider? Especially if that might make your friendship with their other half more difficult? Alright, ultimately it's their decision to make, and you'll stick by them, but you'd want to make sure that they were making the right decision for the right reasons? Wouldn't you? Maybe a tenuous analogy, but thats the best I can do.

[MisterTommyH]

Anti-Scotland and Anti-Independence are not the same thing.

Although they are (quite successfully) being painted as the same thing.....

[Bibio]

trust me Fordword, i am thinking of this carefully but unlike most people i'm not just thinking about me, i'm actually thinking of the generations to come. nothing about the BOE or Westminster in recent decades has shown me any reason the still be part of that union.

i dont trust ANY politician as far as i can throw them and dont believe a word that comes out any one of their mouths. politicians are like the hands on the dial of a clock you can tell the time by looking at them but its the workings of a clock that make the time so it does not matter what hands you put on the clock as long as the workings work. politicians tell us what's happening but these are based on the people behind the scenes who actually do all the hard work and run our country.

the biggest problem with politicians is they are not experts in the position they hold.

[Spank86]

trust me Fordword, i am thinking of this carefully but unlike most people i'm not just thinking about me, i'm actually thinking of the generations to come. nothing about the BOE or Westminster in recent decades has shown me any reason the still be part of that union.
Well I do have to agree there, If Scotland had been independent since the 70's we might not have had two scots buggering up our country through the noughties.

[Bibio]

i will now give my reason why i'm voting yes on the 18th.

Scotland as a nation has hard times ahead of it be it in the union or out the union when the oil finally runs out. being in the union when this happens is pretty much going to mean very hard times for the Scottish population as it will not be in control of its own finances and not have built up its own economy. being out the union means that Scotalnd with the right people behind the scenes can work towards a hopefully stable financial future where they will not need the revenue form the oil as long as they can build and sustain an economy, how Scotland would do this i dont know as i'm no expert on economics and i'm placing my trust on such people to do the right job as i already do at the moment.

either way it's not looking good for Scotland's future but i would rather stay in a country that is in charge of its own economic climate rather than beg for handouts that WILL be slashed. at the moment Scotland's finances are pretty much give and take of what we send down to Westminster and what we receive back so at the moment all is well, when the oil does run out then there will be a massive shortfall in what Scotland is contributing to the coffers and i'm not nieve enought to think that we will still be given the same revenue to look after our affairs.

this is why in one of my earlier posts i mentioned that i would prefer to see the UK disbanded and one single country created with one single currency as this would insure that everyone was treated fairly. this in time would stop the 'identity slagging' as we would all be 'insert nationality of new country'. but this is not happening so i'm voting for the next best thing that is in my interest to do so. only downside to this is the 'identity slagging' will continue and more than likely get even worse which is a shame.

my thought proses might be a bit strange or even wrong but thats how i feel about the future of Scotland.

the BOE could collapse tomorrow which would leave ALL of us up the shizz creek and owing to England having the highest population of all of the UK then this is where most of the available revenue would be spent in sustaining this population.

[Bibio]

Well I do have to agree there, If Scotland had been independent since the 70's we might not have had two scots buggering up our country through the noughties.

well blame the majority votes that the WHOLE of the UK voted to put them in power, please dont take politicians nationality to mean that they are responsible for what happened. look at what Thatcher done to the country and she was as English as you can get. get a grip Spank.

[Spank86]

i'm not nieve enought to think that we will still be given the same revenue to look after our affairs.
You did for the 269 years prior to them finding oil.

this is why in one of my earlier posts i mentioned that i would prefer to see the UK disbanded and one single country created with one single currency
the UK IS one single country, and it has one single currency, Pound Sterling, it just has multiple notes and more than one bank authorised to print them.

the BOE could collapse tomorrow which would leave ALL of us up the shizz creek and owing to England having the highest population of all of the UK then this is where most of the available revenue would be spent in sustaining this population.
No it couldn't, I don't even know how you think this could happen, or indeed where "available revenue" would come from in the absence of a BOE since it's what backs our currency.


i'm no expert on economics

[Spank86]

well blame the majority votes that the WHOLE of the UK voted to put them in power, please dont take politicians nationality to mean that they are responsible for what happened. look at what Thatcher done to the country and she was as English as you can get. get a grip Spank.

Just pointing out that if you're going to blame the government and the BOE for wanting to get out of the union it was a Scottish PM and chancellor, both from the very government that Scotland voted for en mass which was responsible for the 12 years running up to the recession and the current operational makeup of the bank of England.

[Heorot]

Personally I am in a dilemma over the whole yes/no issue. From a materialistic point of view, I want the result to be a NO because of the disruption and uncertainty that would result from a YES.

From an emotional point of view I want the result to be a yes, so they can go to hell in a handbasket all on their own.

As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and worked there with Scots, I am trending towards YES.

[Bibio]

You did for the 269 years prior to them finding oil.
yes and they were a blooody hard 269 years for all of us.

the UK IS one single country, and it has one single currency, Pound Sterling, it just has multiple notes and more than one bank authorised to print them.

no its a union of 4 country's which consist of Scotland (maybe not for long), England, Northern Ireland and Wales.

no our currency for the rest of the UK is controlled by the BOE and has been said that it's not legal tender. the only legal tender note is BOE note so thats not fair on the rest of us.

No it couldn't, I don't even know how you think this could happen, or indeed where "available revenue" would come from in the absence of a BOE since it's what backs our currency.

ermmm yes it could and at any time. why does it have to be the BOE that backs our currency since we are all in a union. should it not be a bank that all of the UK has control over. why does it have to be The Bank Of ENGLAND

and yes i'm no economist just like you.

[Bibio]

anyway i've had enough and i'm outa here... roll on Thursday.

[TamSV]

Personally I am in a dilemma over the whole yes/no issue. From a materialistic point of view, I want the result to be a NO because of the disruption and uncertainty that would result from a YES.

From an emotional point of view I want the result to be a yes, so they can go to hell in a handbasket all on their own.

As an Englishman who has lived in Scotland and worked there with Scots, I am trending towards YES.

lol. An interesting point of view but not a unique one I suspect.

What did we do to you?

[Heorot]

from the uneducated on the estate where I lived; open hostility. From the supposedly educated in the IT department at RBS, where I was contracting, a more subtle approach. They took the form of anti-English "jokes" that weren't funny. I once challenged my manager over one remark she made and told her that it was racist. Her response was that it couldn't be racist because it was against the English. My partner was told by a workmate in the IT department at Scottish Widows the we shouldn't be allowed to buy a property in Scotland because Scotland was for Scots and not the English. Just a couple of examples but similar remarks were almost a daily occurrence.

[Heorot]

Just a note to Bibio. There is a difference between making a rational decision and rationalising an irrational decision.

[Spank86]

no its a union of 4 country's which consist of Scotland (maybe not for long), England, Northern Ireland and Wales.
the united kingdom is a country of countries, it may contain countries but it is still in itself a country.


no our currency for the rest of the UK is controlled by the BOE and has been said that it's not legal tender. the only legal tender note is BOE note so thats not fair on the rest of us.
Scotland has NO legal tender, in Scottish law both Scottish banknotes AND English banknotes are not legal tender. This is a matter for Scottish law and would no doubt be addressed if it ever became an issue but legal tender only means that something MUST be accepted in payment of a debt, it has no meaning when goods or services are provided at the time of payment.



ermmm yes it could and at any time. why does it have to be the BOE that backs our currency since we are all in a union. should it not be a bank that all of the UK has control over. why does it have to be The Bank Of ENGLAND
Because nobody ever bothered changing the name, the bank of England is controlled by the governors and executive officers of the bank, the chief governor being a Canadian. and all the UK has the same control over it. don't get hung up on a name, up until 1946 it was a fully private institution.

What resources do you think we'd have if the BOE went bust? All those pretty notes are backed by that self same bank, the only way it could go bust is if we all quit our jobs and simultaneously withdrew all our money from the banking system. Or if the UK government decided it was a brilliant economic plan in some moment of madness.

[TamSV]

from the uneducated on the estate where I lived; open hostility. From the supposedly educated in the IT department at RBS, where I was contracting, a more subtle approach. They took the form of anti-English "jokes" that weren't funny. I once challenged my manager over one remark she made and told her that it was racist. Her response was that it couldn't be racist because it was against the English. My partner was told by a workmate in the IT department at Scottish Widows the we shouldn't be allowed to buy a property in Scotland because Scotland was for Scots and not the English. Just a couple of examples but similar remarks were almost a daily occurrence.

I agree that's all pretty poor but I had the same experience as a Scot working in England for several years - from jokes to physical violence. I don't hold that against "the English". There's intolerant, ignorant ****s all over but don't worry about it. If you tar everyone with the same brush you've basically become what you despise.

[Heorot]

Actually Tam, I think the virulence is a relatively recent phenomenon. The incidents referred to in my last post were in 2000 & 2001 in and around Edinburgh. However, I first visited and toured Scotland in 1969 and again in 1975. On both those visits I never encountered any hostility. Indeed the reverse. However, on both those visits I was mainly in the Highlands rather than the Central Belt.

[The Basket]

I have lived in Scotland for 7 years.
I haven't experienced anti English apart from witty banter.
Or maybe I have thick skin.

The problem with Scottish Independence is its pure nonsense. How anyone can vote yes is beyond me.

As they say, you can't eat a flag.

[Spank86]

Actually Tam, I think the virulence is a relatively recent phenomenon. The incidents referred to in my last post were in 2000 & 2001 in and around Edinburgh. However, I first visited and toured Scotland in 1969 and again in 1975. On both those visits I never encountered any hostility. Indeed the reverse. However, on both those visits I was mainly in the Highlands rather than the Central Belt.

I think you might find that's just an example of Big city ******s.

I'll just leave that there to offend half the forum, but at least it's not specifically the Scottish half. :D

[TamSV]

The problem with Scottish Independence is its pure nonsense. How anyone can vote yes is beyond me.

It's just a discussion about how people choose to organise themselves to deliver public services. It's actually pretty hum drum.

It's some of the arguments used to justify it that are nonsense. :)

[Spank86]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/casting-begins-for-12-years-a-scot-2014091590577

[Fordward]

nothing about the BOE or Westminster in recent decades has shown me any reason the still be part of that union

Stability and security are what you have within the Union, Scotland is currently part of one of the richest countries in the world. Yes, it's not all flowers and roses, and sometimes for place like Northern England and Scotland it can seem a bit s#!t.

But is the grass greener on the other side of the fence? And do you want to risk breaking a leg jumping that fence to find out, when it might a pig sty full of s#!t on the other side.

[pegasus]

Because nobody ever bothered changing the name, the bank of England is controlled by the governors and executive officers of the bank, the chief governor being a Canadian. and all the UK has the same control over it. don't get hung up on a name, up until 1946 it was a fully private institution.

What resources do you think we'd have if the BOE went bust? All those pretty notes are backed by that self same bank, the only way it could go bust is if we all quit our jobs and simultaneously withdrew all our money from the banking system. Or if the UK government decided it was a brilliant economic plan in some moment of madness.

Just curious but, do you actually believe this?

I understand that previously the Gold Standard would have been the basis for guaranteeing any transactions, but the gold is gone, I also understand that in recent years Bonds will have exchanged hands (with other national banks? eg Japan) to underwrite any future transactions. But the GBP is only worth what somebody will give you for it, nothing substantial backs it up other than trust!!.

Meanwhile the Rothschilds (yawn) are getting richer.

P

[Fordward]

i will now give my reason why i'm voting yes on the 18th.

Scotland as a nation has hard times ahead of it be it in the union or out the union when the oil finally runs out. being in the union when this happens is pretty much going to mean very hard times for the Scottish population as it will not be in control of its own finances and not have built up its own economy. being out the union means that Scotalnd with the right people behind the scenes can work towards a hopefully stable financial future where they will not need the revenue form the oil as long as they can build and sustain an economy, how Scotland would do this i dont know as i'm no expert on economics and i'm placing my trust on such people to do the right job as i already do at the moment.

either way it's not looking good for Scotland's future but i would rather stay in a country that is in charge of its own economic climate rather than beg for handouts that WILL be slashed. at the moment Scotland's finances are pretty much give and take of what we send down to Westminster and what we receive back so at the moment all is well, when the oil does run out then there will be a massive shortfall in what Scotland is contributing to the coffers and i'm not nieve enought to think that we will still be given the same revenue to look after our affairs.

this is why in one of my earlier posts i mentioned that i would prefer to see the UK disbanded and one single country created with one single currency as this would insure that everyone was treated fairly. this in time would stop the 'identity slagging' as we would all be 'insert nationality of new country'. but this is not happening so i'm voting for the next best thing that is in my interest to do so. only downside to this is the 'identity slagging' will continue and more than likely get even worse which is a shame.

my thought proses might be a bit strange or even wrong but thats how i feel about the future of Scotland.

the BOE could collapse tomorrow which would leave ALL of us up the shizz creek and owing to England having the highest population of all of the UK then this is where most of the available revenue would be spent in sustaining this population.

That's fair do's. Your the first person in 8 pages (you would be the first person in 41 pages on another forum I'm on) who's actually given their own reasoning's for voting yes, that actually make sense, rather than just regurgitating SNP propaganda.

[Spank86]

Just curious but, do you actually believe this?

I understand that previously the Gold Standard would have been the basis for guaranteeing any transactions, but the gold is gone, I also understand that in recent years Bonds will have exchanged hands (with other national banks? eg Japan) to underwrite any future transactions. But the GBP is only worth what somebody will give you for it, nothing substantial backs it up other than trust!!.

Meanwhile the Rothschilds (yawn) are getting richer.

P

Believe what? that all the UK has the same control as each other over it? that Scotland England, wales and Northern Ireland all have the same control in the ability of the UK parliament to pass laws and to regulate the bank (which the government also owns)?

Or that the Governor of the bank Mark Carney was born in Canada?

Or that the bank was nationalised in 1946?

All that's a matter of public record.


The gold standard still brings us back to trust, after all what gives gold value? Buying gold in case there's an apocalypse makes less sense than buying canned food. Instead of the gold standard which is just an arbitrary precious metal and puts us in a situation where there's not enough capital available due to the scarcity of gold we simply back the currency with everything. land, property, pork bellies... everything gives the currency value, gold is just another commodity as part of that.

[SvNewbie]

To loosely quote Mark Blyth, a Brown University economist "Gold is a fear index, 1/3 of the worlds gold is around the neck of Indian peasants, that doesn't make it a rich country."

As Spank says, gold has no intrinsic value, it's just a commodity which has only a few practical applications.

[garynortheast]

"In this world, one thing counts, in the bank large amounts".


I was always under the impression that life was about so much more than an economic system. However, reading this thread, and particularly the No supporter posts I feel I may be one of the only people here who feels that way.


It's a sad world in which we live....


On your marks, set.....

[Spank86]

That's because economics are tangible and affect your quality of life,

Would you care to explain how an independent Scotland would adjust people's life quality none monetarily?

[Fordward]

Would you care to explain how an independent Scotland would adjust people's life quality none monetarily?

Anti-depressant drugs













Kidding.........:D

[garynortheast]

I think you're missing the point there. We appear to have become enslaved to a system of finance, production and consumption which ought to be serving us. The arguments about Scottish independence just seem to be reinforcing that impression for me.


That's about all I can be bothered to say on the subject. I shall leave you all to your discussions about money.

[carelesschucca]

You're in now there's no leaving.

the whole discussion should be about economics it's what makes countries work. There seems to be a lot of people that say they're happy to have a worse standard of living if it means they can Sing a National Anthem with pride. I'll bet they don't say that when they've had to sell their pride and joy that brought them to this forum in the first place.

[Spank86]

I think you're missing the point there. We appear to have become enslaved to a system of finance, production and consumption which ought to be serving us. The arguments about Scottish independence just seem to be reinforcing that impression for me.


That's about all I can be bothered to say on the subject. I shall leave you all to your discussions about money.

You haven't said anything at all yet.

This is a discussion about Scotland's independence, how would things differe with regards to this system?

Why would it be better with Scotland independent?

Would people find it easier to find the ones they love? Would they get sick less? Get injured less? Would they glory less hours and spend their afternoons fishing for salmon in the sunshine?

Or will none of that change at all and the truth is despite your vaguely worded nothing's the reality is the only changes will be economic and the location of the government?

[kaivalagi]

Anyone else get one of these blanket emails through?

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/kaivalagi/Scratch/cameron_zps92f8ccba.png

[andrewsmith]

http://youtu.be/W6vDzf-wSbk

W6vDzf-wSbk

[Bibio]

Anyone else get one of these blanket emails through?

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy91/kaivalagi/Scratch/cameron_zps92f8ccba.png

ok i was going to stay out of this but if the above email is true then i'm disgusted with the under handed tactics of such an email. this is in clear violation of public records and violation of the Data Protection Act. what this email is saying to me is that the UK government know everyone's Email address and phone numbers to which they are using said date for propaganda purposes. David Cameron should be hung drawn and quartered for even daring to used his political power in the misuse of public data.

or again is it just me thats sooooo disturbed about the misuse of data by the UK government for their own gain?

that email has just finally made my mind up 100% that the UK government cant be trusted.