Electric Vehicles

[Luckypants]

By my calculation, based on a quick google search, a Tesla electric car battery is around 80-100kWh, so that's c. 8-10kW power demand required for a full overnight charge (keeping maths simple, assuming 10 hours duration). Add that up for multiple vehicles and there is a huge demand, especially when you compare to current typical average levels. If each vehicle is broadly equivalent to 3-4 houses, then it becomes clear that many concurrent vehicle charging loads of that or more do present a big problem for electricity supply industry at local distribution level.

Unless a property has 3-phase, the maximum wall charger draw is 7.5kW, limited by regulations AFAIK. 3-pin draw is 2.4kW? Most cars maximum AC draw is 11kW (only 3-phase again) but some can pull 22kW - so there are practical limits.

Your point on local infrastructure struggling with a street full of cars pulling 7.5kW is well made though. My village with its 1950s overhead cables and ancient transformers will no doubt suffer problems when we are all charging our cars.

[Ruffy]

Unless a property has 3-phase, the maximum wall charger draw is 7.5kW, limited by regulations AFAIK. 3-pin draw is 2.4kW? Most cars maximum AC draw is 11kW (only 3-phase again) but some can pull 22kW - so there are practical limits.
You may be right about the regulations, I didn't research that far. Domestic 3 pin limit is c.3kW (13A at 230Vac nominal rms) though a commonly available industrial 'blue' single phase 32A plug and socket on dedicated circuit could allow 7.4-7.5kW. Perhaps that's the technical basis for the chosen regulation?

Your point on local infrastructure struggling with a street full of cars pulling 7.5kW is well made though. My village with its 1950s overhead cables and ancient transformers will no doubt suffer problems when we are all charging our cars.
Credit where it's due, it was Dave20046 and then timwilky who made the point originally.

[Ruffy]

The simple fact is that there was no wind, very often in winter in UK we get stuck in a high pressure area where the isobars are social distancing - some of the coldest weather is during highs as no cloud cover ...
Yes understood and I know it does happen - wind is a variable source, that's why you need a lot of turbines spread out throughout the country and offshore if you want anything like predicatble overall supply capacity at naional level (that will be noticeably lower than total connected machine capability).

I was more wondering if some windfarms were constrained off i.e. paid not to generate because there's surplus, cheaper gas or other baseload supply available that's not as easy to switch off. You'll no doubt be aware of the 'shock' style press headlines that have appeared in the past but it's just a quirk of the balancing market with variable supply & demand and the fact that large scale electricity storage is not prolific.

Today only about 13% supplied by wind, 0.5% by solar and the rest by gas fired power stations ( what a waste ) nuclear, biomass cables across channel and even about 7% by coal fired stations.
Gas is still cheap globally but burning it (or biomass for that matter) doesn't attract the bad press of 'dirty' coal. I agree it's not great but I guess money rules - selection of generation is still decided by economic factors, not moral ones.

I was surprised at the gap when checking my own home supply bills last month, so much so that I even stopped briefly to consider swapping out my electric kettle for a stovetop one! (It turned out 1kW electricity was almost 3 times the price of 1kW gas for my usage - though build-up is skewed a bit by daily standing charges on my contract - it's not as simple as per-unit price differences so more analysis required.)

[Luckypants]

FoN4WCpuxHY

[Dave20046]

Just got this in my inbox

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/electric-cars-unable-to-afford/

Obviously the cost should come down in the coming years.




Credit where it's due, it was timwilky who made the point originally.

:smt018 I thought it was the point that kicked this whole thread off

[Luckypants]

They are expensive and thats the biggest problem for consumers IMHO. Its certainly the bit that's holding me back. I think legacy car makers want to see a return on their investment at a speed they would with a normal ICE car amd fail to allow for the costs of converting to electric to be recouped over a longer time frame. Tesla only recently started to make profits and they have been building EVs for 10 years.

I think they think of a number they believe early adopters will stomach and then add on the value of any incentives available. It would be better for UK customers to negotiate a price prior to the PICG and then claim the grant afterwards. That way the "OTR" prices advertised would be more like the list prices and any grant is a bonus. Right now all EV prices are advertised with the grant taken off. I'm hopeful they become more affordable to owner-dirvers in the next 2-3 years, otherwise we are waiting for the lease market to start releasing second hand ones.

[ethariel]

Before the 2030 deadline, production lines will have to radically adapt to build a wider range of EVs in a profitable way, while the UK’s charging network will need to grow exponentially to cater for demand.

Hahahahahaha! - Why?

When the deadline hit's, it's EV or public transport....why on earth would the manufacturers take a hit on profits for something people just 'HAVE' to have?

Additionally 2nd hand sales of EV will in all probability be fairly unrealistic in many cases as by the time you are done with it, the 5-20k battery pack is in all probability shagged out (end of life) anyway.

[Grant66]

Just got this in my inbox



https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/electric-cars-unable-to-afford/



Obviously the cost should come down in the coming years.







:smt018 I thought it was the point that kicked this whole thread offYou're assuming that the government want personal transport for everyone and current methods just need translating from petrol to electricity.

There are several different scenarios for the future.

If vehicle ownership is unaffordable then rental systems will increase. Why buy a depreciating asset if you don't need it every day?

We may be looking at a world where if I need to get from A to B I'll tap my app, an autonomous vehicle will arrive, take me to B. I don't need to worry about buying it, maintaining, parking or charging it.

Is it as convenient as what we have today? No.


We need to stop thinking about the future as an extension of the status quo and consider alternatives to mass individual vehicle ownership.


Sent from an S20 using Tapatalk with that kin cr4p blocked

[garynortheast]

.
We need to stop thinking about the future as an extension of the status quo and consider alternatives to mass individual vehicle ownership.


Absolutely this, well said Grant. The status quo in many areas of society at the moment, is not a viable option for the future continuity of life, particularly mammalian life on this planet tbh.

[redtrummy]

On Tuesday in brilliant sunshine the other half and I went for a bike ride. She on an electric bike due to arthritis. As we peddled along with her zipping up the hills there was me thinking that an e-bike could be the solution to overcrowded polluted roads. Today as I sit in the lounge with the rain and sleet hitting the patio window I have probably changed my mind!


I think in the future we will be curtailed one way or another re mobility. Either that or the world human population will have to reduce significantly.

[Ruffy]

:smt018 I thought it was the point that kicked this whole thread off
It may be a fair cop, guv. I was referring to the technical point about local electricity distribution not being able to cope, subtlely different to having enough number of charging points which I think is where this thread started.

But, in any event, I knew it wasn't me and thought it right to admit it!:smt083

[Ruffy]

We may be looking at a world where if I need to get from A to B I'll tap my app, an autonomous vehicle will arrive, take me to B. I don't need to worry about buying it, maintaining, parking or charging it.
Can't see this ever quite happening myself. Maintenance and cleaning will be the issue. A lot of current owner-driven taxis are pretty grubby inside - I wouldn't want to sit in many for extended periods when sober.

Also, would you risk being the passenger in a poorly-maintained autonomous vehicle at risk of crashing?

IMHO, cleaning and mechanical maintenance will be the areas where owners seek to compromise in order to maximise the asset availability, leading to a pretty unpleasant experience (depending on previous occupants).

We need to stop thinking about the future as an extension of the status quo and consider alternatives to mass individual vehicle ownership.
Although I do concede that is a good point. I recall a quote I heard in the past: "A developed world is not one where everyone has a car, a developed world is one where the well-off use public transport" (Source unknown).

[Dave20046]

I was musing the other day about what will happen with independent mechanics. Grant’s point about changing the thinking about vehicle ownership probably settles that - eventually they will have no reason to exist.

It may be a fair cop, guv. I was referring to the technical point about local electricity distribution not being able to cope, subtlely different to having enough number of charging points which I think is where this thread started.

But, in any event, I knew it wasn't me and thought it right to admit it!:smt083
I don’t think I articulated it very well but was wary of cabling capacity to houses as well as grid supply and if original designers had anticipated large draws from every house hold down the line . Mainly an observation triggered by working in an office where the lady folk thought it was a good idea to put an electric heater or two under all of their desks and kept flicking the fuse box back on until the cabling in the walls started burning . I’ve just removed fabric cabling and wooden back boxes from my own home, but hopefully city infrastructure is a bit more up to date that domestic one offs! And then there’s the more obvious ‘is there enough power available’ , looks like they’re working on it though.

[Adam Ef]

Legsilation is often a nudge for suppliers rather than consumers, or an attempt to give them confidence to invest in what's needed to make things a reality. A bit chicken and egg.


Things will change a lot in the next 10 to 20 years. Technology moves fast, especially when there's profit possible.


FoN4WCpuxHY

[punyXpress]

. . . but we haven't got 20 years !

[Ruffy]

I don’t think I articulated it very well but was wary of cabling capacity to houses as well as grid supply and if original designers had anticipated large draws from every house hold down the line .
Checking back, you did indeed cover it (post #4 of this thread from you). My apologies! I've even gone back to update my own post :)

[Dave20046]

Checking back, you did indeed cover it (post #4 of this thread from you). My apologies! I've even gone back to update my own post :)

You’re a nobleman, I was only joshing but thanks.

[Ruffy]

You’re a nobleman, I was only joshing but thanks.
Kind of you to say so. I'd taken it as light-hearted which is a credit to your character, too.:smt023 (Nowadays it seems the form is to get 'offended' and to protest extremely about even the slightest perceived wrongdoing!)

Anyhow, still not an excuse for not righting the wrong.:)

[DJ123]

This is an interesting video by Harry Metcalfe here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CUA2imRYRM&list=WL&index=2). Some good data on Electric cars and the CO2 output (production & driven).

[Luckypants]

There is also a good chance that after an update various parts of the car will no longer work properly...

This is already happening with Tesla over the air updates.

[DJ123]

This is already happening with Tesla over the air updates.

A lot of cars these days (new ones with built in internet) have over the air updates. Whether it be the OS, Sat Nav, software issues on the ECU etc. No need to go in to a dealer anymore.

[Sir Trev]

My car (Ford) connects to the home wi-fi when it's on the drive and presumably does this.

[DJ123]

This may be a tangent, but what happens to emergency vehicles?
I couldn't see an EV fire engine being produced for years as they could in no way do the same job for the continuous amount of time an ICE is capable of.
Police cars? Great news if you're a criminal, easy to out run them when they need to choose between blue flashing lights, wipers, lights or putting their foot down.
Ambulance; uses the defibrillator & the vehicle stops . . . .

Think i might buy myself a Van, large generator and set up a mobile charging unit for people breaking down.

[Luckypants]

Think i might buy myself a Van, large generator and set up a mobile charging unit for people breaking down.
Too late, the AA and RAC already have them.... :smt044:smt044

https://d1ix0byejyn2u7.cloudfront.net/drive/images/uploads/headers/ws_cropper/1_0x0_790x520_0x520_rac-ev-boost-charge.jpg

[daktulos]

This may be a tangent, but what happens to emergency vehicles?
I couldn't see an EV fire engine being produced for years as they could in no way do the same job for the continuous amount of time an ICE is capable of.
Police cars? Great news if you're a criminal, easy to out run them when they need to choose between blue flashing lights, wipers, lights or putting their foot down.
Ambulance; uses the defibrillator & the vehicle stops . . . .

There will no doubt be exceptions for emergency vehicles (much like the exceptions which allow police cars to have their engines running all the time) but they may not be needed.

Considering fire engines, they spend most of the time in a purpose-built shed, so can always be topped up. Police cars could perhaps do with less boot space, to give them a much longer range.

Or maybe they'll have pluggable batteries. When it's industrial, there'll be plenty of options ...

My favourite is the first all-electric ferry in Norway, built in 2014. It has a 1MWh battery (10x the biggest Tesla) but charges enough for each trip during the 10 minute turn-around. To do this, they have a battery in the port which is constantly charged then dumps its charge into the ferry when it docks as the grid wouldn't cope on its own.

I'm still holding out hope for hydrogen though ... :-)

[redtrummy]

Got a friend that has just got rid of his Toyota Hybrid - he is a gadget man but just got fed up with all the gizmo's which he said has just got too much. Plus it hasn't been ultra reliable

[DJ123]

There will no doubt be exceptions for emergency vehicles (much like the exceptions which allow police cars to have their engines running all the time) but they may not be needed.

Considering fire engines, they spend most of the time in a purpose-built shed, so can always be topped up. Police cars could perhaps do with less boot space, to give them a much longer range.

Or maybe they'll have pluggable batteries. When it's industrial, there'll be plenty of options ...

My favourite is the first all-electric ferry in Norway, built in 2014. It has a 1MWh battery (10x the biggest Tesla) but charges enough for each trip during the 10 minute turn-around. To do this, they have a battery in the port which is constantly charged then dumps its charge into the ferry when it docks as the grid wouldn't cope on its own.

I'm still holding out hope for hydrogen though ... :-)

A fire engine on scene at a fire or a crash scene using the PTO can be on for multiple hours from an ICE. You'd need a serious battery to pull the same power for battery, or a large generator.

Hydrogen is too expensive for smaller vehicles currently. I can see it being used for industrial purposes/the road transport network more so due to the much larger volumes they consume. Then cars will trickle in as this becomes more accessible and cheaper.

[DJ123]

There's some good battery information in this video (https://youtu.be/-PL32ea0MqM?t=603) talking about the degradation of Lithium Ion Batteries, and that Tesla is using a LFP battery in the Chinese market for the Tesla 3 due to the better long term performance.

[DJ123]

My friend is a Firefighter, and says that EV fires as the most difficult to deal with. Essentially the best/only way to deal with them is to submerse the car in water for 24 hours.

This is the advice Tesla give on a Battery fire, link to page/documents below.

https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/what-firefighters-need-to-know-about-electric-car-batteries-omiDv8vd87oZ9ZKs/


FIREFIGHTING
Extinguish small
Fires
that do not involve the high voltage batteryusing typical vehicle
Firefghting
procedures.During overhaul, do not make contact with any high voltagecomponents. Always use insulated tools for overhaul.Stored gas inflation
cylinders, gas struts, and other componentscan result in boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) inextreme temperatures. Perform an adequate knock down beforeentering a hot zone.If the high voltage battery catches
fire,
is exposed to high heat, oris bent, twisted, cracked, or breached in any way, use largeamounts of water to cool the battery. DO NOT extinguish with asmall amount of water. Always establish or request an additional water supply.Battery
Fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures.Use a thermal imaging camera to ensure that the high voltage battery is completely cooled before leaving the incident. The battery must be monitored for at least one hour after it is found to be completely cooled. Smoke or steam indicates that thebattery is still heating. Do not release the vehicle to secondresponders, such as law enforcement and towing personnel, untilthere has been no heating detected for one hour.Always advise second responders that there is a risk of batteryre-ignition. After Model S has been involved in submersion,
Fire, or a collision that has compromised the high voltage battery, always store the vehicle in an open area at least 50 ft (15 m) from any exposure.

[svenrico]

'Electric vehicles are part of the solution that are worth pursuing for some applications, but I certainly dont think they're a utopian fix-all.' That hits the nail on the head. It seems to me to be putting all your eggs in one basket pursuing just electric vehicles .

[ethariel]

The good side of a drastic reduction in the burning of fossil fuels will indeed be 'cleaner air' and a potential to reduce or even in an optimistic view to reverse climate change.

The downside will be to follow-on political instability in nations that rely on the export of Oil and LNG based resources.

It will indeed be interesting times ahead, in more ways that one in all probability

[Seeker]

Everything you wanted know about comparitive costs of electric cars, including battery manufacturing, versus ICE cars.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

(it's a long read)

[Calix Lee]

Lately, I feel like a lot of car manufacturers are trying to create e-vehicles.

[svenrico]

Lately, I feel like a lot of car manufacturers are trying to create e-vehicles. 'A lot of' - aren't they all ?!

[DJ123]

Lately, I feel like a lot of car manufacturers are trying to create e-vehicles.

one of the (big) reasons (inc hybrid) is they have an overall CO2 output figure they can't be above across their whole range of vehicles.
This is why you are also seeing this from Hyper car companies too who would much prefer not to have to use heavy electrical equipment.

[Luckypants]

Yes, it's the reason Skoda only sold the electric Citigo for 3 months, to get overall emissions down. Now they have the Enyaq EV to do that for them, so dropped the Citigo EV asap.

[svenrico]

Yes, it's the reason Skoda only sold the electric Citigo for 3 months, to get overall emissions down. Now they have the Enyaq EV to do that for them, so dropped the Citigo EV asap.
So it's all a bit of a game !

[Luckypants]

Improvements in charging infrastructure for motorways coming

lnuH43-nowM

[Seeker]

Improvements in charging infrastructure for motorways coming

lnuH43-nowM

a step in the right direction I suppose. Lincolnshire's only motorway is the M180, it is only 25 miles in length and doesn't even reach the Humber ports. As a comparison, Lincolnshire has 5500 miles of other roads.

I'm 65 and would like an electric car but I suspect my driving time will be over by the time they're affordable.

[Luckypants]

Non-motorway roads are getting better served now BP and Shell are getting behind charging points in a big way. BP have just installed 6 150Kw chargers near J27 M6 on A5206 for instance.

The problem with motorway services has been that Electric Highway has almost a monopoly on non-Tesla chargers. Their chargers are old and basically crap, unable to work with the latest vehicles. This announcement is great news, doubling the capacity at each charger and installing something modern that can be maintained and works. The HPC super fast chargers are still a way off I suspect, but add in the Ionity network and now BP / Shell putting chargers near motorways things do look better.

[Luckypants]

Just found out that a new charging hub with multiple chargers has opened at Forfar, provided by the council. Free to use at present, so cheap(er) motoring.

[Bibio]

so what do we do for an hour while car is charging?
how are inner city tenement occupants etc.etc going to charge their car?


this whole idea of 'charge point' electric cars is a complete farce as is going to cause nothing but chaos come 2033-2035.

[svenrico]

so what do we do for an hour while car is charging?
how are inner city tenement occupants etc.etc going to charge their car?


this whole idea of 'charge point' electric cars is a complete farce as is going to cause nothing but chaos come 2033-2035.
Maybe it is all a way of controlling people's motoring - a network of motorway charging points but no leisure rides to out of the way places, they'll be thinking of banning petrol engines next !

[Bibio]

most people dont buy cars any more and instead lease so come 2033-2035 petroleum fuelled cars will go back to dealers and at that point people will only be offered electric powered vehicles. the returned vehicles will be decommissioned.


so in reality we have until 2035 at the latest before most vehicles will be electric. unrealistic deadline.


wooohhooo...


whoever thought up charging points should be put up against a wall and shot. it should be universal cassette battery packs so you drive in and drive out.


its all going to be a retail wet dream.....

[SV650rules]

By the time people have paid the inflated prices to charge their car at motorway and other charging points owned by companies any 'fuel' savings will be non-existent. As for charging at home I am sure the government will also want chips in car charging leads and smart meters to know when a vehicle is being charged and have a different rate for electricity ( something has to replace the loss of duty on petrol and diesel), the government will just wait until they have a trapped audience of electric vehicle users ( trapped by legislation of their making - aided by Princess Carrie nut-nut whispering in Boris's ear ) and then the bad news will start to arrive, at the moment they are wary of scaring people off the already eye wateringly expensive electric vehicles and will bide their time.

As for a universal car battery - I wouldn't want to drive my brand new BEV into a battery swap station and drive out with an abused 5 year old battery in place of my brand new one. Also battery tech is evolving pretty fast and a battery tech could well become obsolete within a few years of its introduction. At present keeping a Lithium Ion battery fully charged damages them, which is why the 'x minutes to 80% charge ' appears on BEV adverts, the 80% figure was not chosen at random. Also the sneaky using of car batteries to keep grid running in the face of renewables that do not show up for days on end is a con, battery life is dependent on charge / discharge cycles, and although the grid will offer cheaper rates if you sign up for the scam your battery will go through many more cycles than shows on the milometer - you could buy a 3 year old BEV with 10,000 miles on the clock, but the battery has actually done the equivalent of 200,000 miles as far as battery cycles are concerned the previous owner has saved money at the next owners expense.

[Biker Biggles]

I agree with Bibio on one thing----cassette type battery swapping will be the way forward. You wont own the battery so no worries about it getting shagged out,you will only buy the amount of energy it contains, which will be measurable. Its the way to get over the elephant in the room which is time spent charging/refuelling. Motorists want and need to make progress and that means refuelling in a couple of minutes, not tens of minutes or even an hour or more. Solve that and electric will become mainstream

[SV650rules]

I agree with Bibio on one thing----cassette type battery swapping will be the way forward. You wont own the battery so no worries about it getting shagged out,you will only buy the amount of energy it contains, which will be measurable. Its the way to get over the elephant in the room which is time spent charging/refuelling. Motorists want and need to make progress and that means refuelling in a couple of minutes, not tens of minutes or even an hour or more. Solve that and electric will become mainstream

Problem is with BEV that the battery is a massive part of the car, is very heavy and takes up an awful lot of room ( my brother in law is working on Jaguar electric car design at the moment ). The BEV is literally built around the battery, not like a torch where the batteries pop in and out easily. Motorways kill batteries, for a motorway trip ( unless you want to stay with the lorries at 50/60 mph ) expect to get 60% of the range it says in that shiny brochure you got with the car...

Weight of Tesla car and then battery

Roadster 1500kg battery 900kg
Model S 2000 kg battery 600kg
model 3 2000 kg battery 500kg

Tesla Semi-truck battery 12,000 kg ( that's right the battery alone weighs 12 tons ).

[svenrico]

'As for charging at home I am sure the government will also want chips in car charging leads and smart meters to know when a vehicle is being charged and have a different rate for electricity ( something has to replace the loss of duty on petrol and diesel), the government will just wait until they have a trapped audience of electric vehicle users ( trapped by legislation of their making - aided by Princess Carrie nut-nut whispering in Boris's ear ) and then the bad news will start to arrive, at the moment they are wary of scaring people off the already eye wateringly expensive electric vehicles and will bide their time.'
Sounds about right. I am cynical about this whole electric vehicles thing. A bit like brexit , oops sorry ,drifting off topic again.

[SV650rules]

It is already starting -

https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-vehicle-charging-%E2%80%93-what-does-it-really-cost/n16833

[svenrico]

I don't have an electric car or motorbike but I have a pedelec , the type of bicycle that requires pedalling for the electric motor to assist. It was good while the battery lasted ,but it only lasted a year before refusing to hold a charge, and the range on generally level ground was only about 16 miles on a low setting, not the 30 or so miles as claimed by the manufacturer. A new battery is about £360 the last time I checked with the bike shop but is claimed to give a range of about 40 miles or so. I will get round to a new battery one day. Without motor assist it is like wading through treacle so really can't be ridden with a flat battery.

[admin]

I don't have an electric car or motorbike but I have a pedelec , the type of bicycle that requires pedalling for the electric motor to assist. It was good while the battery lasted ,but it only lasted a year before refusing to hold a charge, and the range on generally level ground was only about 16 miles on a low setting, not the 30 or so miles as claimed by the manufacturer. A new battery is about £360 the last time I checked with the bike shop but is claimed to give a range of about 40 miles or so. I will get round to a new battery one day. Without motor assist it is like wading through treacle so really can't be ridden with a flat battery.There are places that can refurbish your battery and install new cells.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[SV650rules]

No doubt on electric vehicles as well as insuring for accident and fire ( fire seems to be a real possibility ) or theft they will introduce battery insurance. Depending if you have signed up to the 'lend us your battery' scheme to keep national grid going when renewables stay in bed I have no doubt you battery insurance premium will skyrocket, as the 'protect the grid' scheme will put the battery through many more cycles than normal driving will. They need to have a register to check if the second hand BEV you are thinking of buying has been used on the scheme, because the speedo trip may only say 10,000 miles but the battery has done 100,000 or more. I have no doubt places will spring up ( like the mileage 'correction' services we have today ) that can reset the battery charge / discharge history memory to a lower figure. The next environmental disaster my well be how to get rid of the toxic chemicals that millions of used but not really recyclable BEV batteries will inflict on the planet - the volume will be much, much greater than the paltry amount of nuclear waste we have accumulated over last 70 years or so.

[DJ123]

Solid state batteries will replace the current generation of lithium ion, probably within the next 5 years. Then you will essentially have nigh on the 'perfect' balance of weight, range, size, charging capability & lifetime too.

[SV650rules]

We have been on the edge of a battery revolution for the past 30 years, the big breakthrough that will make something the size of a matchbox capable of powering a jumbo jet and costing £50 is always just out of reach - like tomorrow, its never gonna come.

[DJ123]

The EV world has come a long way in a short time, it'll continue at a rapid rate now EV's are going to be mandatory in a lot of countries.

[svenrico]

The EV world has come a long way in a short time, it'll continue at a rapid rate now EV's are going to be mandatory in a lot of countries.
I have just had an email from MAG about the proposed electric vehicle/ban on petrol engine situation.

[svenrico]

The EV world has come a long way in a short time, it'll continue at a rapid rate now EV's are going to be mandatory in a lot of countries.
Electric vehicles are obviously being forced on us but what forces are at play here, companies with vested interests, individuals queuing up to line their own pockets possibly. I am not suggesting ,of course, like some suggested happened with recent Covid related contracts, that private companies with connections to people in government could benefit from the change to electric vehicles.

[svenrico]

Solid state batteries will replace the current generation of lithium ion, probably within the next 5 years. Then you will essentially have nigh on the 'perfect' balance of weight, range, size, charging capability & lifetime too.

Really ?!

[Seeker]

How long will the electric car's battery last?
... that depends...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/long-electric-car-battery-last-173833772.html

[Luckypants]

Really ?!According to VW at their "Power Day" they expect to have solid state batteries from 2025. I'm sure these will only be in Porsche and top-end Audi products, but eventually it will trickle down to less expensive vehicles. Tesla, LG Chem and General Motors are all working on solid state technology.

There's a good chance one of the mobile phone manufacturers will develop solid state technology before then, as they will also benefit massively from it.

Whether solid state will be all that DJ123 states remains to be seen. It must be 'better' than current lithium-ion tech though, otherwise there would not be so many billions being spent on R&D?

[embee]

It will certainly be interesting to see the progress and innovation. Some things are real game changers, the ideas drift around for years and then suddenly someone makes something commercially viable and the whole scene changes almost overnight.
Witness the demise of the CRT television. Flat screen LCD monitors were bubbling along with small expensive screens, and then the technology to make LCD screens big enough at an affordable price to make it real, then it progresses into screens bigger than you can fit in your sitting room for less than your old CRT cost 25yrs ago.
A lot of the next things have already been thought of, it's often a question of making them real. Manufacturing engineering is a much under-rated and mis-understood discipline.

[DJ123]

According to VW at their "Power Day" they expect to have solid state batteries from 2025. I'm sure these will only be in Porsche and top-end Audi products, but eventually it will trickle down to less expensive vehicles. Tesla, LG Chem and General Motors are all working on solid state technology.

There's a good chance one of the mobile phone manufacturers will develop solid state technology before then, as they will also benefit massively from it.

Whether solid state will be all that DJ123 states remains to be seen. It must be 'better' than current lithium-ion tech though, otherwise there would not be so many billions being spent on R&D?

Last i heard/watched on the subject part of the commercialism of the SSD battery is being able to produce it on a Lithium Ion production line. That would make it more commercially viable ,as the mass production will drive the cost down and allow the tech to be more widespread.

Toyota, VW & Mercedes (and others i would assume) are investing in SSD batteries.

Check out a company called Quantumscape.

[Luckypants]

Plug-in car grant is now being reduced. Linky (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plug-in-car-van-and-truck-grant-to-be-targeted-at-more-affordable-models-to-allow-more-people-to-make-the-switch?fbclid=IwAR2uRO2ny7uTXcYtqjNiiZ09Q-bjWvZp7DWbEs-YfWjwLEAvsj1gVgK8nJ0)

[Bibio]

ok there is a plan... car bodies incorporating graphene and will be the power source. graphene 'battery's' charge in mins and since there will be no heavy battery's then the car will be lighter so will go further on a charge. if they incorporate graphene/solar body then will charge for free when it can e.g. sunny.

[admin]

New car day.Electric [emoji6]?

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[svenrico]

ok there is a plan... car bodies incorporating graphene and will be the power source. graphene 'battery's' charge in mins and since there will be no heavy battery's then the car will be lighter so will go further on a charge. if they incorporate graphene/solar body then will charge for free when it can e.g. sunny.
Graphene, the new wonder material , what is happening with that, it sounded really good but haven't heard much about it lately ?

[Luckypants]

Electric [emoji6]?

Yep!

Cannot remember how to upload a picture.

[admin]

I use https://postimages.org . Works better than the built in system.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

[punyXpress]

Stealth Bomber material - you're not supposed to see or hear much about it!

[Seeker]

Graphene, the new wonder material , what is happening with that, it sounded really good but haven't heard much about it lately ?

"Graphene - the miracle material"

- does everything except come out the lab.

[BoltonSte]

It's out there, still looking to find uses for it. Graphene charges fast but also discharges fast, more like a capacitor than a battery. I've seen some battery mock-ups and they were charging/discharging in seconds.

Don't know how viable a battery from it actually is.

Bloomin expensive, though getting cheaper, last time I was trialling it we were looking at $10,000/kg

[SV650rules]

Size for size batteries store a lot more energy than a capacitor, but absorb and release it slower. Capacitors are great for absorbing energy quickly and releasing it quickly. The voltage of a capacitor drops markedly as it discharges where batteries maintain voltage until they are pretty much empty. ( at 11.9 volts a lead acid battery is pretty much flat ).

https://www.machinedesign.com/automation-iiot/batteries-power-supplies/article/21831866/whats-the-difference-between-batteries-and-capacitors

[svenrico]

It's out there, still looking to find uses for it. Graphene charges fast but also discharges fast, more like a capacitor than a battery. I've seen some battery mock-ups and they were charging/discharging in seconds.

Don't know how viable a battery from it actually is.

Bloomin expensive, though getting cheaper, last time I was trialling it we were looking at $10,000/kg
Developed at Manchester university wasn't it? Thought there were all sorts of possible uses for it ! The cost might be a problem though.
What were you trialling it for ?

[21QUEST]

I agree with Bibio on one thing----cassette type battery swapping will be the way forward. You wont own the battery so no worries about it getting shagged out,you will only buy the amount of energy it contains, which will be measurable. Its the way to get over the elephant in the room which is time spent charging/refuelling. Motorists want and need to make progress and that means refuelling in a couple of minutes, not tens of minutes or even an hour or more. Solve that and electric will become mainstream

Your wish has been granted .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

[SV650rules]

Developed at Manchester university wasn't it? Thought there were all sorts of possible uses for it ! The cost might be a problem though.
What were you trialling it for ?

Pencils ?

[Biker Biggles]

Your wish has been granted .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw


That looks promising. Its an advert so to be read as such but the principle is all there.

[SV650rules]

How many batteries will the average motorway services or 'swap station' keep ready to go, and how many different types and voltages ? Every car maker will probably specify a different battery, and as cars age and the tech improves batteries will become obsolete pretty quick. Turn up at the mortorway services with a 5 year old BEV and they will probably say. 'sorry mate, we don't do that one any more'....

[Luckypants]

I agree with Bibio on one thing----cassette type battery swapping will be the way forward. You wont own the battery so no worries about it getting shagged out,you will only buy the amount of energy it contains, which will be measurable. Its the way to get over the elephant in the room which is time spent charging/refuelling. Motorists want and need to make progress and that means refuelling in a couple of minutes, not tens of minutes or even an hour or more. Solve that and electric will become mainstreamWhat will battery swapping achieve in terms of time? Drive into the swap bay, jack up car, remove battery pack by means of an operative, fit new pack, diagnostics to make sure it works with the car, leave.... Probably more than the 5 minutes folks are looking for?

How long before these battery swapping facilities are as ubiquitous as petrol stations? Or charging stations come to that? (There are more charging stations than petrol stations now in the UK)

I don't see any mainstream manufacturer going down this road, as there is no infrastructure to support it. VAG/Mercedes/Kia/Hyundai have all put their shoulders behind Ionity. Tesla has the Supercharging network. Shell/BP/Esso are rolling out high speed chargers. I think faster charging will be the way forward for road tripping and overnight / destination / workplace charging taking care of daily commuting and shopping miles.

[Dave20046]

What will battery swapping achieve in terms of time? Drive into the swap bay, jack up car, remove battery pack by means of an operative, fit new pack, diagnostics to make sure it works with the car, leave.... Probably more than the 5 minutes folks are looking for?

How long before these battery swapping facilities are as ubiquitous as petrol stations? Or charging stations come to that? (There are more charging stations than petrol stations now in the UK)

I don't see any mainstream manufacturer going down this road, as there is no infrastructure to support it. VAG/Mercedes/Kia/Hyundai have all put their shoulders behind Ionity. Tesla has the Supercharging network. Shell/BP/Esso are rolling out high speed chargers. I think faster charging will be the way forward for road tripping and overnight / destination / workplace charging taking care of daily commuting and shopping miles.
If they were accessible for a quick, tooless change (but then theft would be a mega problem) and didn't weight a ton I actually think it's a good idea ... at least until instant charge is a thing. Or even as a backup option in an emergency like the Nokia days.

I imagine the batteries are monsters though, unless they introduce a supplementary battery for the above emergency purposes.

More importantly - what did ye get?!

[Luckypants]

More importantly - what did ye get?!
VW ID.4. In YELLOW.

[Dave20046]

VW ID.4. In YELLOW.

Just googled it - looks good!
Similar styling to another car I spotted the other day and liked - can't remember what it was.

I've also seen a thing buzzing round lately that looks a LOT like a mini clubman (old school ones) - pretty sure it's electric. No idea what it was but it definitely wasn't (new) mini.

[svenrico]

(There are more charging stations than petrol stations now in the UK)
Is that true or am I missing some sort of sarcasm ?

[Luckypants]

Is that true or am I missing some sort of sarcasm ?


https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-has-more-ev-charging-stations-petrol-stations

[Luckypants]

I've also seen a thing buzzing round lately that looks a LOT like a mini clubman (old school ones) - pretty sure it's electric. No idea what it was but it definitely wasn't (new) mini.

One of these? Honda-e

https://media.autoexpress.co.uk/image/private/s--Z2fMnCNg--/f_auto,t_content-image-full-desktop@1/v1567702179/autoexpress/2019/09/01_6.jpg

[Dave20046]

Yes! Thanks

I like it but I do have a major softspot for old Minis so probably nostalgia bias

[Luckypants]

Not very mini like handing, it's RWD and getting a rep for being tail happy. Honda have majored on the tech though, screens everywhere!

[embee]

Also fearsomely expensive for what it is, and very modest range on the 35kWhr battery (something like 120mls real world).
I looked at one in the showroom, very funky and "cute", but ..............

[daktulos]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-has-more-ev-charging-stations-petrol-stations

If they're counting the lamp-posts in London as charging stations, then it's not surprising, but also not useful. Given that it takes at least ten times to fill up an electric car, you'd need so many more to get even close.

[Luckypants]

Well clearly not counting lamp posts, only those with charging capability.

Charging a car needs a mindset change. You think about charging overnight or at work or at the gym etc. You charge your car when it is busy doing nothing. Its not like a fossil vehicle where you need to stand over it filling it up, it can be left to safely charge on its own. So lamp post chargers are valid public charge points, as a 4 hour charge while you are at the cinema or watching the rugby or shopping or a 100 other things is a a decent top up for most people. My car would add around 40 miles from a lamp post charger in 4 hours.

If you need to crack on a long journey, that is when charge times becomes a big deal. Almost all the recent crop of EVs will charge at 80+ Kw, meaning a 20-80% charge is quick. What you need is 100Kw+ chargers on main routes and these are coming. Ionity, Gridserve, Shell and BP to name the main players are rolling out 150Kw to 350kW chargers. VW ID.3 and ID.4 cars can charge at 125Kw, so fill 20-80% in less than 40 minutes. That's the time it takes to get lunch. The fastest 250Kw Tesla chargers will do the same thing in 20 minutes, which is a pee stop / coffee stop.

If you want to drive 600 miles in one hit with no breaks, then EV is not for you.

[Seeker]

Triumph electric motorcycle TE-1
https://www.rideapart.com/news/496167/triumph-te1-electric-powertrain-prototype-revealed/

[daktulos]

Triumph electric motorcycle TE-1
https://www.rideapart.com/news/496167/triumph-te1-electric-powertrain-prototype-revealed/

I'd buy one ... if I had a garage to charge it in. Damn.

[garynortheast]

That sounds very promising. I'd have one - if I could afford it!

[svenrico]

Triumph electric motorcycle TE-1
https://www.rideapart.com/news/496167/triumph-te1-electric-powertrain-prototype-revealed/
Pity it hasn't got a rear mudguard, will that be an optional extra ?!

[svenrico]

I'd buy one ... if I had a garage to charge it in. Damn.
I'd get a Morgan 3 wheeler if they weren't so expensive and I had a bigger garage to put it in !

[Luckypants]

Yep!

Cannot remember how to upload a picture.

Hope everyone can see this.

https://i.postimg.cc/T1SgkfKG/20210319-181111.jpg

[Craig380]

oooooh, I didn't know the ID4s were shipping yet. Full first impressions, please :)

[Luckypants]

Well its been at the detailers since the weekend, so only got to drive 100 miles total. Its very quiet, very smooth and very comfortable. There is loads of tech. I need to get to grips with, but all seems very easy to use. It has all the EV traits of instant torque, punchy overtakes and weirdly swift progress. We are having to recalibrate brains on speed as no engine noise means you can end up speeding if not careful.

A great feature I'm liking is the adaptive re-gen braking, if I lift off the accelerator the car coasts until it 'sees' a car ahead or a junction/bend/roundabout/etc then it starts to slow the car with re-gen braking until it gets quite strong. If you do nothing, it slows to a stop where appropriate. If it slows for a bend, it goes very slow around the bend. Obviously you can intervene and then it drives as you want it.

Also excellent is the new adaptive cruise control (not an EV only thing I know) linked to traffic sign recognition. If the ACC is set to the speed limit, the car will slow / speed up to the limit without driver input. Its kinda weird and fun at the same time.

I'm loving it so far and cannot wait to get it back.

[svenrico]

Well its been at the detailers since the weekend, so only got to drive 100 miles total. Its very quiet, very smooth and very comfortable. There is loads of tech. I need to get to grips with, but all seems very easy to use. It has all the EV traits of instant torque, punchy overtakes and weirdly swift progress. We are having to recalibrate brains on speed as no engine noise means you can end up speeding if not careful.

A great feature I'm liking is the adaptive re-gen braking, if I lift off the accelerator the car coasts until it 'sees' a car ahead or a junction/bend/roundabout/etc then it starts to slow the car with re-gen braking until it gets quite strong. If you do nothing, it slows to a stop where appropriate. If it slows for a bend, it goes very slow around the bend. Obviously you can intervene and then it drives as you want it.

Also excellent is the new adaptive cruise control (not an EV only thing I know) linked to traffic sign recognition. If the ACC is set to the speed limit, the car will slow / speed up to the limit without driver input. Its kinda weird and fun at the same time.

I'm loving it so far and cannot wait to get it back.
Does it take into account there might be some idiot tailgating you when it operates this automatic slowing down/ braking or stopping ?!

[Adam Ef]

then it starts to slow the car with re-gen braking until it gets quite strong.




My van has something similar. At least I thought it did until I realised it was the hand brake binding on the rear drum :-)


In all seriousness.. looks like a great car. A bit jealous. I hadn't seen the VW electric before and looks like they're doing a good job of it.

[Luckypants]

Does it take into account there might be some idiot tailgating you when it operates this automatic slowing down/ braking or stopping ?! The brake lights operate when braking force goes above a certain amount. My wife followed me home from picking it up and said I seemed to be using the brakes a lot, but I wasn't.

It doesn't check the rear camera for hazards before braking as far as I'm aware :D