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I can see people parking their entire car the pavement to get as close to their fence/wall as possible. No chance of tripping if you can't get past.
#tonguefirmlyincheek
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Luckypants
07-12-21, 11:18 AM
Honestly don't know Bibs. Of course its the parent's fault for letting them be little ****s in that case but like you say, we cannot blame the parents these days. Allowing your child to play around high voltage electrical equipment is neglect in my book, but hey ho... I would say the liability would be the same as if the kid tripped over a petrol hose at a filling station.
The gutter thing is being trialled by a number of councils as a solution to the trailing cable issue, so I'm assuming they have done a risk assessment on it. It would be available in the same way as a dropped kerb is now.
Luckypants
07-12-21, 11:23 AM
I can see people parking their entire car the pavement to get as close to their fence/wall as possible. No chance of tripping if you can't get past.
#tonguefirmlyincheek
Sent from my SM-T510 using TapatalkMaybe, seen plenty of examples of that too!
John, your council is trialling on street charging, any idea what they are doing about trailing cables? (on second look it seems some of these are in car parks)
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/transport/2021/08/12/uk-first-electric-vehicle-smart-charging-scheme-comes-to-shropshire/
i think those gutters need to be closed in. if any council approves those they need their head examined. who is going too foot the bill for the instalment if they do pass stupidity?
petrol pump hoses are not left unattended or trail on the ground.
joking aside this is a serious future problem that has not been thought through enough by morons pushing development and sales of EV's. sell the EV fuk the infrastructure seems to be the attitude right now.
Luckypants
07-12-21, 11:51 AM
I'm sure you are right Bibs. Apparently looking where you are going and being aware of your surroundings is not a requirement these days. Joking aside as you say, these are a hazard to the partially sighted or blind especially if they are popping up on pavements. I have seen some terrible street charging post installations in Warrington where they in the middle of the pathway!
I try to tuck the cable away out of harms way to avoid a trip hazard whenever I'm charging. The location of chargers is key here I think. My local Tesco chargers are nicely in a corner where no one will try to walk past the cars to get anywhere - but the Aldi ones are at the side of the path, where people walking to the store will pass. In your Ikea example, the ones at Leeds are in the middle of the car park and potentially there is a trip hazard but the one at Manchester is in a fenced off bay. Location is everything possibly?
Luckypants
07-12-21, 11:54 AM
If you want to see the trench cable duct thing, its from this times article
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/electric-car-charging-wars-the-battle-for-our-pavements-wkllmhtdl
svenrico
07-12-21, 12:11 PM
If you want to see the trench cable duct thing, its from this times article
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/electric-car-charging-wars-the-battle-for-our-pavements-wkllmhtdl
Would that be one trench every house on a street of terraced houses ?!
I don't see how this charging will work because people are going to need to charge overnight at home and it will only really work in situations where people have a private drive.
SV650rules
07-12-21, 12:30 PM
Are you even allowed to modify council property like that ? If the cable gets damaged the metalwork could become live.
Maybe, seen plenty of examples of that too!
John, your council is trialling on street charging, any idea what they are doing about trailing cables? (on second look it seems some of these are in car parks)
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/transport/2021/08/12/uk-first-electric-vehicle-smart-charging-scheme-comes-to-shropshire/First I've heard of this. No idea how they're going to deal with trailing cables but I'll be interested to know. I'll keep an eye on this.
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Luckypants
07-12-21, 02:38 PM
Follow the link in the article to Agile Streets (https://agilestreets.com/) and there is a map showing partner councils. Click on Shropshire to see where the chargers will be in your area.
Follow the link in the article to Agile Streets (https://agilestreets.com/) and there is a map showing partner councils. Click on Shropshire to see where the chargers will be in your area.Hmm. Abbey car park is quite large, 6 chargers is a good start I suppose.
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svenrico
07-12-21, 05:52 PM
Are you even allowed to modify council property like that ? If the cable gets damaged the metalwork could become live.
You aren't allowed to modify an adopted footway. On new housing estates roads and footways usually come under a Section (forget what it is ) Agreement with the Highways authority. Not sure if the footway in front of our house comes under the County Council Highways or our town council .There is a grass verge between the footway and the County council estate road. I would be ok anyway because I have a private drive and garage at the back of the house.
An interesting situation though. Could it actually put some people off owning electric cars if they can't charge up at home ?!
BoltonSte
07-12-21, 07:17 PM
We have a mid terrace, 30ft front garden onto a main road and random parking at the rear, not enough spaces in an old bit of waste land. The highways view is that you can only leave and enter the main road in 1st gear. It's double yellows on our side (I have asked if their view will change based on the push for this).
I like the idea of elec, although at the moment it's not practical. No charging options at work, already commute an hour. Other than maybe the odd supermarket I haven't seen anywhere to charge. Charging overnight at home is where practicality comes in, the less disruptive it is, the more likely it will be adopted by the masses.
Luckypants
07-12-21, 07:26 PM
You aren't allowed to modify an adopted footway. On new housing estates roads and footways usually come under a Section (forget what it is ) Agreement with the Highways authority. Not sure if the footway in front of our house comes under the County Council Highways or our town council .There is a grass verge between the footway and the County council estate road. I would be ok anyway because I have a private drive and garage at the back of the house.
An interesting situation though. Could it actually put some people off owning electric cars if they can't charge up at home ?!
It's the council who are putting those in. Helps to read the linked article.
svenrico
08-12-21, 09:17 PM
It's the council who are putting those in. Helps to read the linked article.
I was responding to SV650 rules query ,but how many councils are actually going to provide charging points to all houses that need them ?!
svenrico
12-12-21, 08:44 PM
There was a quite interesting programme on tv the other night looking at charging of electric vehicles . They said some dwellings (not all consumer units are suitable apparently ) with off road parking can have a charging box installed on an outside wall for about £1000. They quoted the particular car they had as requiring 28 hours for a full charge off an ordinary domestic socket, with the charging box reducing that time by two thirds. They said not all ev's have the same charging plug ,I assume that must be the plug that goes into the socket in the car and not the charging point !
As far as I remember I don't think they actually discussed the problems for dwellings that don't have off road parking.
On 5th gear something or other they tested 3 ev's and voted a Honda car the winner even though it only had a range of about 130 miles which doesn't seem much to me.
hotel owners are missing out. i cant find any hotels B&B etc.etc in mid north scotland that have charging points.
who is responsible for installing public charge points?
svenrico
12-12-21, 09:41 PM
hotel owners are missing out. i cant find any hotels B&B etc.etc in mid north scotland that have charging points.
who is responsible for installing public charge points?
Whatever authority owns the land presumably - Town council, District council, County council as appropriate I assume.
ps don't know if there are any Planning requirements for ev charging points on new developments nowadays.
svenrico
12-12-21, 09:53 PM
'Remainder of the UK
While there is not a universal, or consistent approach to chargepoint provision, many local authorities have developed their own guidance which is often built on the London Plan model.
Tip: The approach of mandating proportions of active chargepoints can cause challenges with which bays should receive them, particularly on sites where bays would normally be allocated. For guidance we recommend you speak to our Built Environment team.
What EV charging requirements can we expect in the future?
Future National Policy
The government’s Road to Zero strategy expressed their intention that, in due course, a chargepoint is installed in every home with parking. They are currently consulting on what this would mean for the development industry and are considering their requirement. Options include mandating either active or passive chargepoints in each development, whilst appropriate proportions and the best holistic approach to the challenges are being investigated, with consultations are ongoing.'
ps the above is quoted from a government, I think it was, website, not my own comments.
unless you have 3 phase at your house (no chance) then you are restricted to 7kw charging which takes hours and hours to charge.
if your out and about and need a fast charge 22kw+ your pretty much stuffed as they are very very few and far between. i can guarantee each maker will have their own network of charge points on their smart app so will guide you to it instead of the nearest...
motability will be the first to roll out massive amounts of EV's but to date i have not seen one single charging point at disabled parking bays.
so leccy vehicles are only good for glorified shopping trolleys.
going on longer drives you will be constantly paranoid.......
i looked into hybrid... its a worse joke than EV.
Tesla is the ONLY feasible EV due to its range 280 miles and that was over 5 years ago.
EV is a joke....
ethariel
13-12-21, 07:51 AM
EV are not exactly a joke, they are great as a 'Town Runabout', you know for journeys you can most probably make on a bus/train/tube but want to sit in queues on your own instead.
Till battery technology makes a 2 or 3 generation leap, EV is never ever going to come close to replacing the Fossil Fuelled Vehicle market.
Hydrogen fuel cells are by far a better option at present for exhaust pollution reduction, the energy to extract the hydrogen however will most likley still come from the grid.
All that aside, till you can come up with something that hads a range of at a miniumum 300, preferably 500 miles, it's going to take some serious fuel price rises/tax changes to get rid of FF cars, second hand values however will stay really good for decades!
keith_d
13-12-21, 08:21 AM
For me EVs have two major problems which prevent them replacing fossil fuel vehicles
1) Limited range
2) Slow recharge time
The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. You simply pay for the additional energy when you swap batteries at the filling station. The filling station then charges the used batteries and keeps them ready for future customers.
Unfortunately, unless one of the major economies (US, Japan) can force the car makers to come up with a consensus design we're unlikely to see this in our lifetimes.
Biker Biggles
13-12-21, 09:12 AM
For me EVs have two major problems which prevent them replacing fossil fuel vehicles
1) Limited range
2) Slow recharge time
The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. You simply pay for the additional energy when you swap batteries at the filling station. The filling station then charges the used batteries and keeps them ready for future customers.
Unfortunately, unless one of the major economies (US, Japan) can force the car makers to come up with a consensus design we're unlikely to see this in our lifetimes.
Agreed. I have been saying much the same for years. For EVs to become mainstream they have to compete with what we have now and that means comvenience. Jump in and go just like a normal car and go the the garage and fill up just like a normal car. That doesnt mean plug in and wait half an hour or so.
motorways.. hard shoulder will become flat battery shoulder..
i'm still considering an EV next year as the furthest i "visit/shop" is a round trip of 120miles. for long distance i'll keep my fossil burner.
Luckypants
13-12-21, 11:25 AM
Jeez! Luddites unite. I'll bite as I'm probably the only one of you that has any experience of an EV. I've had my VW ID.4 since March and we've covered 8500 miles.
hotel owners are missing out. i cant find any hotels B&B etc.etc in mid north scotland that have charging points.
who is responsible for installing public charge points?
Plenty of hotels have charge points, but those that don't as you say are missing out. As it happens I've been looking for hotels on Skye with a charger - there were 4 I was interested in but all were fully booked for the times I wanted (maybe because they have chargers?) However, this was not a problem as Skye has plenty of public chargers available and there is one 5 minutes from the hotel I booked.
The responsibility for installing public charge points is with the landowner. Usually what happens is the charge point operator will rent some parking bays etc from the landowner to install their chargers. This often has a benefit for both parties as the drivers charging become customers. For example, Instavolt are installing chargers predominantly in MacDonald's and Costa Coffee car parks. Check out the PodPoint and Tesco partnership to put (free) chargers into Tesco stores.
unless you have 3 phase at your house (no chance) then you are restricted to 7kw charging which takes hours and hours to charge.
if your out and about and need a fast charge 22kw+ your pretty much stuffed as they are very very few and far between. i can guarantee each maker will have their own network of charge points on their smart app so will guide you to it instead of the nearest...
motability will be the first to roll out massive amounts of EV's but to date i have not seen one single charging point at disabled parking bays.
so leccy vehicles are only good for glorified shopping trolleys.
going on longer drives you will be constantly paranoid.......
i looked into hybrid... its a worse joke than EV.
Tesla is the ONLY feasible EV due to its range 280 miles and that was over 5 years ago.
EV is a joke....
Good rant mate :D
7kW charger takes 11 hours to fill my car from empty to full. A long time for sure, but as Mrs. Luckypants gets home from work at 5pm and plugs in (if needed) it would be ready to go again at 4am. She doesn't need the car until 7.30am...... furthermore, you obviously do not charge from 0% more likely 20% or higher. Neither do you charge to 100% unless you need the full range for your trip, charging to 80% helps with battery longevity. So 20-80% charge takes 6.5 hours - a long time but easily achievable overnight or while your car is parked at work.
There are quite literally thousands of rapid (50kW or higher speed) chargers in the UK. There were 150 rapid charging stations added in November (https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/) I've only needed to use public rapid charging once (and one other time to try it out) and had no issue finding one on my route home. I needed a 10 minute charge to get me home (not hours).
Tesla are no doubt the leaders in long range EVs. Their flagship model is rated for 400 miles on a single charge. The other manufacturers are hot on their heels though. My car has a rated range of 320 miles for instance. Plenty of other EVs have similar range. Skoda, Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Renault, Audi Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan etc etc all have vehicles capable of 250+ miles.
I'm not paranoid about longer drives, but thanks for the concern. As mentioned I'll be going to Scotland from North Wales and have no worries about it - I'll be doing the same route with the same stops as when I went in my diesel car.
EV are not exactly a joke, they are great as a 'Town Runabout', you know for journeys you can most probably make on a bus/train/tube but want to sit in queues on your own instead.
Till battery technology makes a 2 or 3 generation leap, EV is never ever going to come close to replacing the Fossil Fuelled Vehicle market.
Hydrogen fuel cells are by far a better option at present for exhaust pollution reduction, the energy to extract the hydrogen however will most likley still come from the grid.
All that aside, till you can come up with something that hads a range of at a miniumum 300, preferably 500 miles, it's going to take some serious fuel price rises/tax changes to get rid of FF cars, second hand values however will stay really good for decades!
As stated, plenty of EVs with 300 miles ranges available today (WLTP range). Why do you need 500 mile range? Can you sit there at a UK average of at best 60mph for 8.5 hours without a break? Really? No, take a break and charge the car while you pee/have lunch/get coffee/take a nap/etc ad infinitum. The car charges while you do something else so does not add to total journey time.
Agreed. I have been saying much the same for years. For EVs to become mainstream they have to compete with what we have now and that means comvenience. Jump in and go just like a normal car and go the the garage and fill up just like a normal car. That doesnt mean plug in and wait half an hour or so.
Why do EVs need to fill up 'like a normal car'? They fill up while you are asleep. You can have a full 'tank' every day if you want to. We find home charging far more convenient than going to a filling station. (especially when Mrs LP brings the car home empty because she forgot to fill up) If you need to go more than the 250-300 (or 400 in your Tesla or Merc) then you will need a break, so charge up then and continue the journey without impact.
EDIT: A word about charging speeds on rapid chargers, as I have unconsciously made the assumption you know about them. Nearly all EVs have two types of charging built in. AC charging which can be up to about 45kw depending on the on board charger built into the car. These are normally 11kW as that is the most common 3-phase standard in Europe, where domestic 3-phase is common.
The other type of charging is DC rapid charging, where DC current is applied directly to the battery without the use of the car's on-board charger to convert AC to DC. The fastest chargers available are 350kW, but not many cars can go that fast at present. Most cars can charge at a rate of between 100 and 200kW, which means a full charge in under an hour for most cars, dependant on charge speed and battery size. For instance, Tesla model 3 has a top charge rate of 250kW but cannot hold it for long before battery heating means a bit of throttling to protect the battery. A Tesla model 3 charges 10-80% in about 30 minutes on a Tesla Supercharger (adds 200 miles of range). The new Hyundai / Kia can charge at 210 / 220kW and does 10%-80% in 17 minutes (adds 190 miles).
My ID.4 can charge at up to 125kW which gives 10-80% charge in 38 minutes. This adds 210 miles of range.
svenrico
13-12-21, 12:21 PM
'Why do EVs need to fill up 'like a normal car'? They fill up while you are asleep. You can have a full 'tank' every day if you want to. We find home charging far more convenient than going to a filling station.'
This goes back to the problem that everybody doesn't have off street parking to be able to charge at home.
There is a government scheme of grants for installing charging points but I would be surprised if everybody will ever be able to charge at home.
....The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. ......
Not practical in the near future. A Tesla battery pack weighs 500kg give or take, not something easily swappable.
I recently bought a car for doing my local jobs. I could have managed with an EV if the cost was sensible. The only EVs at all in the price range would be early Leaf or similar, most of those were 24kWh batteries, which with some deterioration would give me around 50-60mls usable real range at best. That would pose too many potential limitations, if I did 30mls one day I'd have to charge it before even contemplating another outing, so essentially charging every trip. No thanks.
I paid half as much for a 10yr old ICE car which does 50+mpg running around locally. Maybe the next one will be EV. I'd happily have a practical one if it was affordable.
The CO2 cost should be made a bit clearer too. All your EV charge comes from gas fired power stations for the time being. The equivalent CO2 is around 550g/kWh from a gas power station, and at 3-4mls per kWh from the car ends up at close to 75-100g/km ballpark for an EV compared to around 125g/km for a typical small ICE car in real world use, significantly better but not an order of magnitude different. The air where the car is used is cleaner though.
Luckypants
13-12-21, 12:44 PM
That is a good point and I have to admit to being one I often overlook, as I've always had a drive (lucky I guess). There are various companies and councils working to get on-street charging infrastructure in place to allow residents to charge overnight, which will address some of this. Workplace charging is another potential solution for some people without a drive, although the new normal WFH situation will impact this. A very good solution is more rapid chargers at supermarkets. Lidl, Morrisons and larger Tesco are the only ones I know of currently that have rapids but this helps enormously. 50kW rapids while you shop will give enough charge for most people to last a week, depends on the length of the commute / school run.
I suppose I felt a little of this unable to charge at home problem after Storm Arwen when I was without power for 3 days. We used the car as normal and topped up at the Tesco and Aldi chargers (7kW and 22kW) while shopping etc. We did go for lunch one time and left the car charging as that was the only way to get a hot meal, so not a fully practical test but I didn't find it worrying or challenging that I had no home charger. If the car was getting low, I could have gone to the rapid charger at Morrison's and charged while shopping or just having coffee.
But finally, technology is moving very fast in this area. Take the current Hyundai / Kia cars that can do 10-80% charge in 17 minutes. That's almost 'normal car' type filling. I have no doubt that next gen cars will be better again.
I still don't think we need filling station type speeds as electric cars charge without supervision, so you can do other stuff while charging. Chargers in public spaces will solve the issue IMHO.
svenrico
13-12-21, 01:30 PM
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Grant schemes for electric vehicle charging infrastructure
OZEV grant schemes for the installation of electric vehicle charging infrastructure: guidance and application forms.
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Published
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Last updated
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Contents
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme
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The government offers grants to support the wider use of electric and hybrid vehicles via the Office of Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV).
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Read information on applying for a plug-in vehicle grant.
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The Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme (EVHS) provides grant funding of up to 75% towards the cost of installing electric vehicle smart chargepoints at domestic properties across the UK.
From April 2022, the EVHS will no longer be open to homeowners (including people with mortgages) who live in single-unit properties such as bungalows and detached, semi-detached or terraced housing.
Installations in single-unit properties need to be completed by 31 March 2022 and a claim submitted to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) by 30 April 2022.
The scheme will remain open to:
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Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: vehicle applications
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24 November 2021 Guidance
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The Workplace Charging Scheme (WCS) is a voucher-based scheme that provides support towards the up-front costs of the purchase and installation of electric vehicle charge-points, for eligible businesses, charities and public sector organisations.
Workplaces can apply for vouchers using the Workplace Charging Scheme application form below.
Workplace Charging Scheme application form
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Workplace Charging Scheme: guidance for applicants
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Workplace Charging Scheme: guidance for installers
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24 November 2021 Guidance
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Apply for EVHS and WCS chargepoint model approval
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LP.. whats the avg range of your EV? please dont quote what the book says tell us the true daily use figures. if your coming up to Scotland what mileage do you expect to get out a charge before having to stop for one.
i'm truly interested in real world figures.
Luckypants
13-12-21, 02:18 PM
LP.. whats the avg range of your EV? please dont quote what the book says tell us the true daily use figures. if your coming up to Scotland what mileage do you expect to get out a charge before having to stop for one.
i'm truly interested in real world figures.
Right now with the current weather and our normal daily driving its showing 102 miles range at 40% charge. Extrapolate that to 100% would be 250 miles or thereabouts. We are averaging 3.0 miles / kWh in current conditions. Summer range is higher when we were averaging 3.8 miles / kWh as batteries like to be warm. The longest trips we have done in this weird year are to Macclesfield, 65 miles each way - mixture of M'way, A-road and lanes. This uses 50% of the battery (EDIT: for the full 130 miles, in current conditions!), so easily done on a normal 80% charge. In summer it was more like 45% of the battery. It was diverting to a particular cheese shop unplanned on the way home from Mac that meant I needed a charge once to get home, 10 mins on a rapid and I was fine. There was a choice of about 10 charging spots on my way home that would have done the job.
Coming up to Scotland I'm confident of a 250 mile range on the motorway but quite possibly more like 280. I'll stop at Moffat (210 miles) to walk the dogs and get breakfast, so will get an 80% charge then. Then stop at Pitlochry (130 miles) for lunch and let the dogs have a splash in the river (charge to around 70% while doing that). Then arrive at our destination north of Inverness with 20% charge remaining (125 miles further). There is a rapid charger 3 miles from where we stay so charging no problem. That is the exact same route we did in the diesel last time we could go and took about 10 hours door to door. I expect it to be the same time in the EV.
We can go visit my wife's family near Hawick on a single charge and do it in one go. However, we are both late 50s and like to stop for a pee at Tebay, so would look to get a charge there for 20-30 minutes (longer if we fancy coffee) and that will give more running about miles while at the brother-in-law's. To charge for the return trip we can charge in Hawick while out for dinner with the rele's, charge at the station if we take the train into Edinburgh or charge en-route home (probably Tebay again :D)
Does that help?
yup. that helps. so realistically your 320 rated mileage is more like 160-200 real world driving before you would need a 30-40min rapid charge for a full top up. or 180 miles round trip for home charge overnight.
lets say i do a lot of overtaking (lots of ultra slow plonker drivers up here) the mileage would drop to 100 before i would need a top up in your ID.4 quoted 320mile range.
realistically an hour charge on "normal" public chargers will get you 60-70 miles?
to get anywhere near the quoted 320 miles you would need to be on a flat motorway in summer with no wind driving at 50mph.
Luckypants
13-12-21, 04:31 PM
yup. that helps. so realistically your 320 rated mileage is more like 160-200 real world driving before you would need a 30-40min rapid charge for a full top up. or 180 miles round trip for home charge overnight.
Where do you get that figure from, based on my real world figures I just gave you? My 320 rated range is about 250-280 real world summer time. This has dropped to 230-250 in current mild winter temps (5-10C) and I expect another 10% drop when it gets down to freezing, 200-225 miles. I've never had less than 220 for a full charge, even in last April's cold snap. Some people do better than me, some worse. Just like ICE vehicles, consumption depends very much on the driver. I'm not gonna lie just to big up EVs, those are my real world numbers based on 8.5k miles of experience.
lets say i do a lot of overtaking (lots of ultra slow plonker drivers up here) the mileage would drop to 100 before i would need a top up in your ID.4 quoted 320mile range. again, how do you arrive at that? :smt021 (EDIT: OK - I might have spotted your confusion was with the trip to Macclesfield? its 50% battery to the full round trip of 130 miles giving a total range of 260 on a full charge.)
realistically an hour charge on "normal" public chargers will get you 60-70 miles? Define normal? for me on a 'road trip' it would be a 50kW or faster charger. An hour charge on that will add around 150 miles to my car with my current consumption of 3 miles / kwH. Get to a faster charger and it will add 320 or more miles in an hour. As I'd likely top up before 0% the battery would be full in much less than an hour.
to get anywhere near the quoted 320 miles you would need to be on a flat motorway in summer with no wind driving at 50mph. Probably true. My last diesel had a quoted consumption of 55mpg, I averaged 45mpg in its lifetime (https://www.fuelly.com/car/skoda/karoq/2018/luckypants/793739) with a best tank of 54.2mpg on the run to Scotland used as an example. My point here is claimed range by manufacturers is not real world.
hmm its sounding more and more feasible for me to switch to an EV.
Ah, the irony: People complaining about other types of vehicles that may not get over 200miles between top-ups when a fill requires the time to get a brew when those same people (as bikers) have vehicles that only do c. 150miles max. to a tank and brew-stop breaks are something to look forward to! :rolleyes:;):)
As LP states, the paradigm shift required is to do the charging when the vehicle is dormant and you're doing something else, not when you desperately need it straight away. And there's usually plenty of opportunity for that with only a modicum of forward planning. I can cope with that - who's never been out to fuel up the night before a ride just so they're 'ready to go' in the morning?
I'd have an EV if I could afford it (although I'd prefer a retro-fit because I find the 'modern' interior dash arrangements of pretty much all modern cars hideous - real gauges, switches and warning lights for me please, I don't want a flat screen device that looks like a cast-off concept of a sci-fi film!)
Luckypants
13-12-21, 11:11 PM
There is quite a cottage industry converting classics to electric drive. Not sure I agree with it but beetles, E-Types and Ferrari 308s are ones I've seen.
There was a bit of a TV series on that a while ago. I'm always very uneasy about the safety of such mods, not the electrical side as such, but the crash safety. The progs I saw showed the conversions were basically tape measure and grinder affairs, I doubt very much there was any calculation involved regarding vehicle integrity.
Still, each to their own.
There is quite a cottage industry converting classics to electric drive. Not sure I agree with it but beetles, E-Types and Ferrari 308s are ones I've seen.
Like you, I'm unsure I like the conversion of 'proper' classics. Preserving some i/c engined cars in original form matters for historical reasons. (Just like I wouldn't want to see the burning of coal in steam trains outlawed.)
But converting my aged Subaru could be good - 4WD powertrain plus a decent power/torque electric primary drive to replace the quite inefficient petrol boxer. And reasonable space to fit a good number of batteries too! :smt115
There was a bit of a TV series on that a while ago. I'm always very uneasy about the safety of such mods, not the electrical side as such, but the crash safety. The progs I saw showed the conversions were basically tape measure and grinder affairs, I doubt very much there was any calculation involved regarding vehicle integrity.
Still, each to their own.
Yes, "Vintage Voltage" I think was the title of the series I saw. I agree the approach was not something mass producers would get away with but the basic engineering consideration looked decent enough, even if mainly done by 'rule of thumb' rather than bespoke calculation.
However, viewed through a road safety lens, you're right, and I shudder to think what the consequences of a head-on might be for some of them, the way they stuffed rigid full battery boxes under the hood to get enough capacity in - no real crumple zone left between the bumper and the driver :shock:
But, hey, we're bikers, we're supposed to be comfortable with serious crash risk, right?!!!:rolleyes:
Luckypants
14-12-21, 09:44 PM
LP.. whats the avg range of your EV? please dont quote what the book says tell us the true daily use figures. if your coming up to Scotland what mileage do you expect to get out a charge before having to stop for one.
i'm truly interested in real world figures.
Another real world example for you Bibio. I had a trip to Shrewsbury planned for today so decided to charge to 100% as its good for the battery to get a full charge about once a month and let's me make this post. It was cold overnight and there was frost on the car this morning, but the battery was warm due to the heating effects of charging. The charge was timed to finish just before I needed to leave and took 6.5 hours from 39%. I activated the cabin heater from the app 30 minutes before departure to warm the car and clear frost from the windows, while the car was plugged in to save using battery power for heating it up. I had 253 miles range according to the car when I set off.
I picked up my daughter and travelled at the pace of the traffic. Cabin heat at 20°C, both heated seats and heated steering wheel on lowest setting. Headlights were on due to patches of fog. So you can see, driving normally and not trying to save energy. The car was parked up for 5 hours so a cold battery on return journey. Temp was around 5°C out and 10°C return.
106 mile round trip used 45% battery. Back home the car states 143 miles range with 55% remaining charge. So a range of 249 in today's conditions, pretty close to the original estimate.
I have some screenshots showing the data but cannot see how to upload them.
HTH
thanks for the info LP. thats pretty impressive. i looked at the price of the ID.4 :smt101
wont be till next year i think about an EV and looks like it will be a Hyundai as the KONA looks just the ticket.
Luckypants
14-12-21, 10:28 PM
thanks for the info LP. thats pretty impressive. i looked at the price of the ID.4 :smt101
wont be till next year i think about an EV and looks like it will be a Hyundai as the KONA looks just the ticket.
A good car, like it's sister the Kia e-Niro. Both very efficient. Those were just too small in the boot for us. Expect a long wait for a new one though.
Luckypants
15-12-21, 12:18 PM
For anyone considering an EV, things have changed with the Plug in Car Grant (PiCG) Reduced from £2500 to £1500 and price of eligible cars also reduced from £35K to £32K.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2021/12/15/plug-in-grant-slashed-and-eligibility-criteria-changed
i would expect in the next 2 years or so to see all government grant schemes reduced or withdrawn.. we have to pay back furlough some way. its either that or raising tax/vat/duty (the gov must be making a fortune with import duty/customs/vat now though)
if they want to entice people to move over to EV then a whopping scrappage scheme for fossil fuel vehicles would be better.
Luckypants
15-12-21, 01:08 PM
Agree Bibio, although they are being quite aggressive in reducing the PiCG. This is the second reduction this year, the previous one was in March. Amazing how many car manufacturers were able to reduce prices to bring their cars under the threshold shortly afterwards though. It like the grant is keeping EV prices higher than they should be.
another ? for LP.. yes yes i know.. lol
how is the charge to kwh calculated? lets say your ID.4 needs a 50% charge, how many kw is that.
Luckypants
15-12-21, 02:03 PM
Electric volume is measured in kilowatt hours (like your domestic meter). So battery capacity is given in kWh. My car has a 77kWh battery, which is the same as saying a petrol / diesel car has a 77 litre tank. The rate at which the electricity is put in is measured in kilowatts.
So 50% charge in my car is 38.5kWh.
The maths for kW to kWh is simple, just multiply the kW by time in hours.. A 1kW charger adds 1kWh of charge in an hour. A 2kW charger adds 2kWh of charge in an hour or 1kWh in 30 minutes. A 100kW charger can add 100kWh of charge in an hour, etc etc
How fast that charge is put in the car depends on two things.
The power of the charger. Public chargers advertise their power and basically the bigger the number the better.
The power the car can accept. The maximum DC charge my car can take is 125kW. The maximum AC charge it can accept is 11kW. Other cars can take differing amounts of power and it is one of the things to consider choosing a car, as this affects charge times.
Now the added complexity is that the charge rate a car can accept is not set in stone, it varies due to conditions.
In general, you will always get the maximum of either car limit or charge rate on AC chargers as these are low enough speeds to not be affected by other conditions. For me that is either 7kW at home / destination charges or 11kw (car limit) on fast AC chargers of 22kW or 43kW. Some cars can do 22kW on AC and early Renault Zoes can manage 45kW on AC.
DC charging is where the fun begins. My car has a headline charge rate of 125kW. Some cars can max at 200+kW. You only get this max charge rate when conditions allow. To get the best charge speeds you need
Your battery to be at a low state of charge. Typically below 10% As state of charge increases, the battery management system on the car will reduce DC power to prevent over heating or damage to the battery. See below for the charge curve for my car
https://ev-database.uk/img/fastcharge/1280-FastchargeCurve.png
Your battery to be warm, either by a long drive on the motorway or by pre-heating like Tesla / Mercedes / Audi / Porsche do automagically.
Local power supply to the charger is sufficient. Sometimes power is limited due to local demand.
No power sharing is taking place. Many chargers share a high power feed between them, so if two or more cars are charging, power to each car is reduced. This is how Tesla chargers work and information is easily found online. This is getting less common as operators realise the limitations as EVs become more common.
Probably raises more questions than answers. :D
or lets say 140 miles for 50% of your charge which takes 38.5kwh to charge back up to full.
38.5kwh x £0.XXxx = £xx / 140 = cost of electricity per mile.
Luckypants
15-12-21, 04:29 PM
Again it varies.... :D
If you have a smart meter, you will be able to get an EV tariff with low overnight prices or you may have economy-7 already. These tariffs can be as low as 5p/kWh giving costs as low as 1p per mile. So it depends on what you pay for your 'leccy. I cannot get a smart meter or economy-7 so my cost per kWh is 23p inc VAT. 38.5x23 = £8.85 to do 140 miles 6.33p/mile.
Public rapid chargers are more expensive, ranging from about 25p to 65p! per kWh. In Scotland some areas still offer free charging on Chargeplace Scotland chargers, but most council areas have now introduced prices for charging. EG free to charge in Hawick but Moffat charger is 25p/kWh. Gridserve who have a virtual monopoly on motorway service areas charge 30p/kWh. Instavolt charge 45p/kWh etc etc.
You can get free charges at various places, most commonly supermarkets. I charge regularly at Aldi and Tesco but have also used Asda's chargers. The free charges I get while shopping / getting lunch or whatever significantly improve my cost per mile. Over the approx 8.5K miles I've done my average cost per mile is 5.65p per mile. This is going up due to higher consumption in the winter with October average being 6.25 and November was 6.07.
and in 10 years or even less it will be £1.50Kw at charge points and home charge points will be separate metered as the Gov will introduce a special duty. think of the revenue the Gov is going to loose. once gas has gone the gov will have us all over a barrel.
Luckypants
15-12-21, 06:18 PM
and in 10 years or even less it will be £1.50Kw at charge points and home charge points will be separate metered as the Gov will introduce a special duty. think of the revenue the Gov is going to loose. once gas has gone the gov will have us all over a barrel.
I think road use charging will be used to replace the lost revenue.
I was recently talking to the guy that Thatcham pays to think about such things.
Robot taxis are about 15 years away. Why would you want to own a car that sits idly depreciating for 94% of the time when you could subscribe to Amazon Cars or whatever that’ll take you door-to-door with a click of an app and then go and plug themselves in out of sight somewhere?
My next car will be my last petrol car. The one after that will be electric. The one after that might be no car at all.
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svenrico
15-12-21, 06:53 PM
i would expect in the next 2 years or so to see all government grant schemes reduced or withdrawn.. we have to pay back furlough some way. its either that or raising tax/vat/duty (the gov must be making a fortune with import duty/customs/vat now though)
if they want to entice people to move over to EV then a whopping scrappage scheme for fossil fuel vehicles would be better.
Will they offer a scrappage scheme for electric vehicles when the battery is buggered ?!
Luckypants
15-12-21, 07:01 PM
I was recently talking to the guy that Thatcham pays to think about such things.
Robot taxis are about 15 years away. Why would you want to own a car that sits idly depreciating for 94% of the time when you could subscribe to Amazon Cars or whatever that’ll take you door-to-door with a click of an app and then go and plug themselves in out of sight somewhere?
My next car will be my last petrol car. The one after that will be electric. The one after that might be no car at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Like everything these days, a solution for an urban population only. You think autonomous cars will be available to the population of west Wales or the Highlands?
Also predicated on the idea we won't all want to travel at the same time. So bank holidays and weekends will be a bust. This is assuming going to offices is a thing of the past.
You think autonomous cars will be available to the population of west Wales or the Highlands?
In the future these areas will merely be nature based theme parks for rich people. The locals who clean their holiday homes won’t be able to afford cars due to spending 75% of their disposable income on overpriced housing.
Any young person with any sense will have left for the cities.
I don’t even know if I’m joking or not. Been to Keswick recently?
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Luckypants
15-12-21, 09:18 PM
I don’t even know if I’m joking or not. Been to Keswick recently?
No, but I can imagine. I live in Wales, I know plenty of young people priced out of their home areas.
You may be right. :nomore:
svenrico
16-12-21, 01:00 AM
No, but I can imagine. I live in Wales, I know plenty of young people priced out of their home areas.
You may be right. :nomore:
It isn't just Wales where young people are priced out of their home area.
garynortheast
16-12-21, 08:25 AM
No, but I can imagine. I live in Wales, I know plenty of young people priced out of their home areas.
You may be right. :nomore:
Not just young folks either Mike, those of us who rent rather than own a home are in a similar position regardless of age unfortunately.
Biker Biggles
16-12-21, 08:58 AM
Indeed. It isnt just rural areas either. A young person growing up in London has absolutely no prospect of ever owning their own home unless they inherit it from their parents.
redtrummy
16-12-21, 09:40 AM
Bottom line is we are overpopulated
svenrico
16-12-21, 06:47 PM
Bottom line is we are overpopulated
Just asking but how does that affect house prices ?
We looked at EV but there’s even less charging points in Spain than there are in the U.K., especially down here in southeast Spain. We bought a Kia Niro hybrid. Lovely car… well, at least I loved it. Mrs W only drove it twice. Great mileage but not as good as I’d hoped.
We switched to a Toyota Yaris hybrid in early October. We’re hitting around 80mpg for our local runs - it runs purely on electric up to about 40mph. Mpg drops to low 60’s for motorway runs.
Just asking but how does that affect house prices ?
Supply and demand.
keith_d
17-12-21, 09:36 PM
Supply and demand.
To be specific, more demand than supply.
In London, where there is continually more demand than supply, house prices will rise until enough people are priced out of the market to bring supply and demand back into balance. The result is that a 'starter' home will sell around the amount that a working couple can borrow, with a little help from parents. The single people and low earners get priced out because couples with two salaries can pay more.
In 'pretty' parts of the country the prices are often dominated by what downsizers moving into the area can afford. There are a finite supply of 'pretty' locations and at the moment there is big pool of people who want to retire to the country. So the young and the low paid get priced out.
The places with low house prices are generally not pretty and do not have good employment opportunities. Here are some 2021 examples from a random website.
Middlesbrough, TS1, £54,978
Bradford, BD1, £58,673
Sunderland, SR1, £65,478
So if you're in the fortunate position of being able to work anywhere there's a decent internet/4G connection you could buy a couple of terraced houses in Middlesbrough and knock them together for the same price of a garden shed in London.
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
daktulos
17-12-21, 10:41 PM
So if you're in the fortunate position of being able to work anywhere there's a decent internet/4G connection you could buy a couple of terraced houses in Middlesbrough and knock them together for the same price of a garden shed in London.
If there's one good thing about Covid, it's going to be people moving away from cities. As long as the Internet keeps up, of course.
svenrico
17-12-21, 11:42 PM
If there's one good thing about Covid, it's going to be people moving away from cities. As long as the Internet keeps up, of course.
That won't be good for rural areas though - there isn't any good thing about covid !
svenrico
17-12-21, 11:46 PM
To be specific, more demand than supply
In 'pretty' parts of the country the prices are often dominated by what downsizers moving into the area can afford. There are a finite supply of 'pretty' locations and at the moment there is big pool of people who want to retire to the country. So the young and the low paid get priced out.
The places with low house prices are generally not pretty and do not have good employment opportunities. Here are some 2021 examples from a random website.
Middlesbrough, TS1, £54,978
Bradford, BD1, £58,673
Sunderland, SR1, £65,478
So if you're in the fortunate position of being able to work anywhere there's a decent internet/4G connection you could buy a couple of terraced houses in Middlesbrough and knock them together for the same price of a garden shed in London.
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
That is true but those reasons for house prices are not due to overpopulation are they ?!
house prices have been pretty stable here in my street for the past 10 years or so. but prices/rents in edinburgh (30 miles away) have just gone insane.
keith_d
18-12-21, 08:48 PM
That is true but those reasons for house prices are not due to overpopulation are they ?!
Nope, overpopulation results in slum conditions as seen in London during Victorian times with the poor crammed several families to a single house.
If I was to ascribe it to anything, I would suggest that the current high prices are due to people wanting to buy their own home. It is seen as an appreciating asset, and everyone wants to get onto the housing ladder. Contrast this to many of the countries in Europe where people live in rented apartments for decades without feeling the need to buy, buy, buy!! They must think we're crazy! :mad:
If we look at somewhere like Spain, property prices there have roughly doubled over the last 25 years, which is broadly in line with inflation. So if we take out general inflation there has been pretty much zero growth in real terms property values. Sounds great, but it results in houses in some areas being very poorly maintained because there's just no reason to spend money on them. In rural areas they can even be left to collapse. All down to economics again, or maybe they're crazy!! :mad:
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
P.S. I suspect their inheritance system is also partly to blame for some of the collapsed houses. It's just too complicated, and expensive.
svenrico
19-12-21, 12:11 AM
Nope, overpopulation results in slum conditions as seen in London during Victorian times with the poor crammed several families to a single house.
If I was to ascribe it to anything, I would suggest that the current high prices are due to people wanting to buy their own home. It is seen as an appreciating asset, and everyone wants to get onto the housing ladder. Contrast this to many of the countries in Europe where people live in rented apartments for decades without feeling the need to buy, buy, buy!! They must think we're crazy! :mad:
If we look at somewhere like Spain, property prices there have roughly doubled over the last 25 years, which is broadly in line with inflation. So if we take out general inflation there has been pretty much zero growth in real terms property values. Sounds great, but it results in houses in some areas being very poorly maintained because there's just no reason to spend money on them. In rural areas they can even be left to collapse. All down to economics again, or maybe they're crazy!! :mad:
Just my thoughts,
Keith.
P.S. I suspect their inheritance system is also partly to blame for some of the collapsed houses. It's just too complicated, and expensive.
Yes ,overpopulation and cramming in one area resulted in slum conditions but there wasn't overpopulation of the whole country.
Not sure about the inflation argument, house prices ,around here at least, increased by about 10% from mid 2020 to mid 2021 .
I agree maintenance and repairs can be expensive , I live in a rural area and I haven't seen any being left to collapse around here though. In fact in a previous existence I was involved in the conversion or renovation of old buildings and in a lot of cases it would have been easier to just demolish them and build anew. They weren't left to collapse anyway.
The renting rather than buying situation you mention is interesting but that is the situation we are coming to here where young people just can't afford to buy to get on the property ladder.
Home ownership has always been popular in the UK but Thatcher was keen on the idea of the individual buying property and thus started the sell-off of council houses. A significant part of the UKs GDP is generated by the buying and selling of property.
Based on older figures, the UK isn't even close to the top 10 of home ownership worldwide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate.
It's just supply and demand, the well paid jobs are in the south so people move for employment. The better weather is on the south coast so people retire there. The more scenic places in the UK suffer from second home buyers and Cotswolds inhabitants (for example) don't want their villages expanding. Flood plains and greenfield sites also limit where houses can be built. Builders are sitting on a large amount of land waiting for prices to rise to make it worth their while to build big expensive houses - starter homes? No thanks - not enough profit.
I live in a 3 bedroom (with separate dining room or 4 bedroom without) dormer bungalow (semi) + detached garage, I doubt that it's worth more than £140k - but who wants to live in Cleethorpes? It suits me because I'm retired, there's little traffic and I'm close to the Wolds but employment opportunities are limited (and as I lay awake listening to foghorns on the Humber, the weather isn't that great either :( ).
It would be easy for me to have an electric car though (apart from the price tag). I'm not buying a car that costs 1/3 the price of my house (and I wouldn't buy a European car anyway - VW cured me of that).
how did we get sidetracked from EV's to house prices.... i love this site :-)
Lithium shortage because nobody wants a mine near them:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-18/even-a-mine-needed-to-fight-climate-change-isn-t-proving-popular?sref=P6Q0mxvj
Lithium shortage because nobody wants a mine near them:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-18/even-a-mine-needed-to-fight-climate-change-isn-t-proving-popular?sref=P6Q0mxvj
boohoo what a shame.
either mine for lithium or keep using dino juice till it runs out. governments should regulate and make sure that the mines are safe and environment sound (well as much as a mine can be).
nobody else think that the big oil giants are behind these sort of protests.. or is my tin hat getting bigger.
svenrico
21-12-21, 12:16 AM
Lithium shortage because nobody wants a mine near them:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-18/even-a-mine-needed-to-fight-climate-change-isn-t-proving-popular?sref=P6Q0mxvj
Does anybody else foresee problems with putting all the eggs in one basket with electric vehicles like they will be doing by banning internal combustion engines ?! There may be alternative fuel options available in the future.
Luckypants
21-12-21, 09:04 AM
nobody else think that the big oil giants are behind these sort of protests.. or is my tin hat getting bigger.Nope and also some of the large vehicle manufacturers (*cough* Toyota *cough*)
Look at what has happened to the Polar Pulse network since BP took over. They have sacked off staff and made the app more difficult to use. Chargers break and go offline and wait months for repair. One of the largest charging networks in the UK now needs to be avoided as its unlikely to work.
good news about mining for lithium is that the poor countries will end up like Saudi. bad news is that they will no doubt be marked at "terrorists".
One man's hate for Tesla (yep, he's nuts).
https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-finn-blow-up-his-tesla-model-s-with-dynamite-1848261076
...and coming to a charging area near you: Elite Charging from Audi
https://jalopnik.com/audis-charging-lounge-is-the-ev-equivalent-of-flying-pr-1848260130
Luckypants
23-12-21, 11:51 AM
I doubt that Audi Lounge thing will be coming to anywhere in Wales, so not near me :D
I think they are misjudging the charging 'scene'.... it is not a leisure activity, its something you need done asap if on a journey. I do see that these could become meeting areas for people whose job is driving to clients, but honestly I think its a bid to be 'more premium' and has missed the mark.
On an unrelated note - has anyone been following the car industry plans to introduce subscription services? As an example if you bought the car with heated seats or remote start capability then after a set period you would lose that function unless you paid a subscription. The German car industry is particularly keen.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bmw-heated-seats-subscription-cruise-control-a9599821.html
svenrico
23-12-21, 05:08 PM
On an unrelated note - has anyone been following the car industry plans to introduce subscription services? As an example if you bought the car with heated seats or remote start capability then after a set period you would lose that function unless you paid a subscription. The German car industry is particularly keen.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bmw-heated-seats-subscription-cruise-control-a9599821.html
No doubt there will be no end of wide boys trying to get in on this electric vehicle scene that we are all being forced into.
svenrico
23-12-21, 05:14 PM
One man's hate for Tesla (yep, he's nuts).
https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-finn-blow-up-his-tesla-model-s-with-dynamite-1848261076
...and coming to a charging area near you: Elite Charging from Audi
https://jalopnik.com/audis-charging-lounge-is-the-ev-equivalent-of-flying-pr-1848260130
What happens to EV batteries when they have reached the end of their life ?
There seems to be quite a few claims for the 'green' credentials of electric vehicles which don't take into account the disadvantages/ negative effects .
On an unrelated note - has anyone been following the car industry plans to introduce subscription services? As an example if you bought the car with heated seats or remote start capability then after a set period you would lose that function unless you paid a subscription. The German car industry is particularly keen.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bmw-heated-seats-subscription-cruise-control-a9599821.htmlTesla do something similar. When a new owner registers a used car, certain functions cease to work as they only apply to the previous owner. I'll see if I can find the story.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-deactivating-some-features-on-used-cars-after-owners-sell-them-privately/
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svenrico
23-12-21, 06:51 PM
Tesla do something similar. When a new owner registers a used car, certain functions cease to work as they only apply to the previous owner. I'll see if I can find the story.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-deactivating-some-features-on-used-cars-after-owners-sell-them-privately/
Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
Watch out used EV purchasers !
On an unrelated note - has anyone been following the car industry plans to introduce subscription services? As an example if you bought the car with heated seats or remote start capability then after a set period you would lose that function unless you paid a subscription. The German car industry is particularly keen.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bmw-heated-seats-subscription-cruise-control-a9599821.html
Tesla do something similar. When a new owner registers a used car, certain functions cease to work as they only apply to the previous owner. I'll see if I can find the story.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-deactivating-some-features-on-used-cars-after-owners-sell-them-privately/
Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk
I spy an opportunity for an aftermarket 'black box' manufacturer. When all is said and done an electric drivetrain is well understood: Electric motors, drives, batteries and chargers have been around for decades so operating them is technically well understood. The rest is just human-machine-interface computer stuff, again pretty straighforward to reverse engineer and replace.
I suspect the biggest impediment to getting around OEM control systems will be overcoming the motor insurance requirements, not the engineering.
svenrico
23-12-21, 11:47 PM
I spy an opportunity for an aftermarket 'black box' manufacturer. When all is said and done an electric drivetrain is well understood: Electric motors, drives, batteries and chargers have been around for decades so operating them is technically well understood. The rest is just human-machine-interface computer stuff, again pretty straighforward to reverse engineer and replace. for some maybe !
I suspect the biggest impediment to getting around OEM control systems will be overcoming the motor insurance requirements, not the engineering.
Plenty to overcome then.
What happens to EV batteries when they have reached the end of their life ?
"End of life" is a less than clear-cut concept.
Once they're no longer suitable for traction use, many batteries are currently re-purposed for the large scale energy storage systems that are being developed to provide backup for renewable/intermitent generation grid systems. The reduced capacity of each battery (or individual degraded cells within the battery) is less an issue in a multi-MWh battery farm connected to the grid where the main challenge at present is about short-term transient ride-through ('synthetic inertia') rather than providing high-power sustained supply.
I'm not clear at what point they become useless for any purpose and become scrap (absolute end of life).
At whatever point, I understand that they can be effectively and quite substantially recycled for raw materials to be re-used (in theory at least - whether that actually happens is a different question).
Plenty to overcome then.
OK, not a 'man in the street' thing, but well within the bounds of reasonably equipped professional control systems/electronic engineers
(A friend who used to work in development for a major manufacturer once shared with me how they would periodically anonymously hire top-end new models to spend a period in the lab (cheaper and quicker than buying), where they would then tap into the wiring of the various data systems and systematically gather data stream traces to be able to assess functionality that they could then be able to compare with their own work. As they said to me, it's just a computer system, so it's much the same hacking/cracking process as, for example, working out how to exploit PC vulnerabilities. Why re-invent the wheel, as it were?!)
svenrico
24-12-21, 02:03 PM
OK, not a 'man in the street' thing, but well within the bounds of reasonably equipped professional control systems/electronic engineers
(A friend who used to work in development for a major manufacturer once shared with me how they would periodically anonymously hire top-end new models to spend a period in the lab (cheaper and quicker than buying), where they would then tap into the wiring of the various data systems and systematically gather data stream traces to be able to assess functionality that they could then be able to compare with their own work. As they said to me, it's just a computer system, so it's much the same hacking/cracking process as, for example, working out how to exploit PC vulnerabilities. Why re-invent the wheel, as it were?!)
Yes, I take your point ,but it isn't something somebody buying a used EV wants to have to get sorted out . They just want to be able to drive the vehicle with everything working.
... but it isn't something somebody buying a used EV wants to have to get sorted out . They just want to be able to drive the vehicle with everything working.
I wholeheartedly agree.:thumbsup:
(Makes me wonder if the car/bike custom culture that we have in the UK will gradually wane when EVs become more prolific or if the aftermarket will just change a bit to provide for a different market. Will large numbers of people still buy a used vehicle with the intent of 'doing it up' to their own taste? Or perhaps I have a distorted viewpoint and I'm badly extrapolating from quite a niche perspective?:confused:)
Volvo has done a report on an ICE v BEV equivalent to map out the carbon footprint and the breakover point.
(results are form page 23 onwards)
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/intl/applications/dotcom/pdf/c40/volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf
Luckypants
25-02-22, 02:04 PM
When low carbon electricity is used, the life time emissions of an EV are less than half that of the ICE version. As UK electricity has a lower carbon footprint than the EU average, EV emissions are much lower over its lifetime.
You have to be careful selecting which method of electricity generation you assume for powering the vehicles.
I've seen figures using the UK "average" CO2 output for electricity generation, somewhere round 250gCO2eq/kWh seems to be used.
However this implies that additional or marginal demand will be at this rate, whereas any marginal additional demand will come from gas (assuming all green/zero power is used in base load).
When you plug your car in to charge, they don't go and start up another wind turbine, they turn up the gas in a power station. Gas fired power stations run at around 550gCO2eq/kWh, or getting on for 2.5 times the average. The average is also only as low as it is because we import nuclear electricity from the continent, and the worst offender is burning wood pellets (Drax) which are shipped from north America and are counted as zero CO2 for the UK, whereas it is actually worse CO2 emissions than coal (a fiddle).
I have nothing against EVs, great solution for the right situation, but be wary of propagandist statistics.
svenrico
25-02-22, 09:57 PM
UK[/B][/I],
I have nothing against EVs, great solution for the right situation, but be wary of propagandist statistics.
Quite right .
when is the deadline for no more fuel cars?
currently it is 2030 (UK) but Germany & Italy are both pushing to extend this if ICE can run on Synthetic fuels, and massively reduce emissions by 70-90%.
looks like the big burger place is ahead of everyone. most are planned for charging point installation. looking at charge point maps is how i feared this would cause a trend, most are either ta retail parks, pay to park car parks or eatery's. so slow charge and the urge to spend money seems widespread. i thought we were supposed to be saving the planet not buying more tat or getting fat. the pay at car parks is just taking the pizz.
Or maybe they being installed there as it's places people spend at least an hour. Which is enough time to get some decent charge in a battery.
Luckypants
12-04-22, 12:24 PM
Horses for courses. It works for McD's to have rapid charges at their drive throughs. Some folks like to get McD's and being able to get a charge is a bonus. It just happens that the time to scoff a burger is about the time needed to get a decent charge. win-win. 7kW chargers at shopping centres makes sense, no one is going to go there for a charge at those speeds, but its useful to get a charge while doing something else - it means no worries about using the car all weekend. Similar with pay to park car parks, I'll go to one if I need to and if there is a charger I may make use of it depending on my state of charge, cost of charge, how long I'm staying etc.
For long trips, it is still rapid chargers by the roadside, at services that people want and need. This is where public charging is really needed.
Adam Ef
12-04-22, 12:31 PM
It's always been similar .... supermarkets all tend to have petrol stations.
SV650rules
12-04-22, 01:46 PM
currently it is 2030 (UK) but Germany & Italy are both pushing to extend this if ICE can run on Synthetic fuels, and massively reduce emissions by 70-90%.
Depends what the synthetic fuels are made from, if they are like ethanol which causes far more emissions and environmental damage than oil does, then they can keep them. There are a lot of smoke an mirrors about this environmental stuff, like washing all the stuff you put in recycling bin can use more energy than is saved by recycling...
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